The Cal-look Lounge

Hi,

the post of Jim about the locked vertex iginition got me thinking...  I'm running a standard bosh 009 with a compufire system in it to replace the old vw system and a basic bosh blue coil, nothing fancy...  I'm planning for stepping up and I wanted to know your ideas.  I like the looks of an old school iginition but horsepower and reliability are more important to me.  So what are you guys suggesting?  A msd system, a joe hunt, a magneto, a....  don't know much about it but I'm willing to learn.
Some say it doesn't increase horsepower but in the story of Jim and Jerry it looks like it does something...  ;D

If there is already a topic about this subject please paste it here but I havn't found much...

Dem

I quite like the Mallory stuff and most of the people who've used it seem to rate it. If you're not going to go down the Magneto route then a Mallory Unitlite would get my vote. John at VeeDub Parts (http://vwparts.net/)  (+1 714 848 8868) has some in stock I think or failing that there's Aircooled Net (http://aircooled.net/) who also stock Mallory stuff.

Locked mag

if you wanna reliability and adjustability easy like nothing in the world chose www.VWSPEDSHOP.com one. No disi no ponts, no timing guesing just really nice and easy stuff and also beautifful :) and it gives nice and clean look to youre engine. http://www.vwspeedshop.com/store/product.php?productid=16740&cat=394&page=1

but if you wanna have a disi try some typical stuff as MSD or pertronix (I heard about faulty ones  - the modules for 009 and faulty coils) Few of my friends runn Pertronix Ignitor I with oud secound strike module and they like it, and have no problemms with that.

Be old school like Sarge. 010 w/ points!  ;D

--louis

So what are the advantages and disadvantages of running a mag on the street?

--louis

They can be hard to start in real cold weather. For power, I've had Roger Crawford tell me that he always seems to see more power on the dyno with the mag over everything else.

Hi Jim,

what is the difference between a locked mag or a (dunno if it exists a unlocked mag  ???  ??? )  I may sound really dumb but like I said before, I don't know sh*it about iginitions?
I suppose a locked mag is a modified part?

Dem

Mallory Unilte. Durable, easy to work with. If you want more, add a HY-FIRE VI or VIA. About 2/3 the price of MSD and you get at least what MSD can offer.
Magnetos are - well, ok for racing. But I dont likem. You cant have enough spark gap to make a decent spark IMHO. Look at the race track. Who´s having ignition problems (?) The guys with their Magneto´s.
T

Hi Dem... no stupid questions!
A locked mag means it has no "advance" like a conventional distributor. Like a 009, you set it at static 7.5 and it is supposed to advance, through centifugal force acting on weights in distributor, and limited by springs, up to what, 28 degrees? If you run a locked dist/mag then you set it at full advance, statically if you desire. A lot of turbo guys run locked distributors/mags, set at 24 degrees (?) because going past that would grenade stuff under  boost. One time I talked to Roger Crawford, and I had just installed an MSD distributor in my car (I love the MSD distributor)
and he suggested running it with locked @ 27. Some guys (me included) think a motor with big ports, big cam, carbs etc... seem to respond better off idle and at low rpm with a locked ignition. My car really woke up by locking advance out. Yes, it can be a bitch to start when the engine is stone cold, but my way around that is having the MSD CD box wired on a separate circuit from ignition/starter switch (keY). My MSD box is wired to a switch on dash, so I can crank engine before energizing ignition. It does help. Of course, with the MSD distributor, a guy can pretty much tailor the rate and amount of advance to whatever he wants, but I am not sure why they offer some of the combos they do.... they would never run good. My advice, is, if you run an MSD and don't want to run locked, then set curve so the engine uses the most initial advance as possible (I ran 17 or 18 if I remember correctly) and use one light blue spring and one light silver spring and the engine will rev like a motorcycle, if everything else is set up correctly. Or, like me, go locked... it's even better. Just make sure you have a good starter/battery.

im taken by both sides of this thread.im old enough to have been brought up to set and adjust points and from a never go wrong system with points and condensor its ideal.just carry these two items in your car and it,ll get you out of most breakdowns.but alot of people cant be fussed with the faffing of setting and adjusting so electronic is for these people.its all down to which side of the fence you like ;D

I like points too. It's nice running something you can "see" if they're working or not! I think tuning an old car with points has a certain good old feel to it. No way am I against a point-ignition.... it's just that the quality of points for the 009 has slipped tremedously over the last 5 years (I know, I sell Bosch parts) and the gap closes up prematurely, the 009 is out of production, the 010's are great, I've run them in everything I've owned VW wise, but parts can be tricky to acquire. The MSD is nice because you can set it up however you wish, and the MSD boxes are very reliable if installed correctly, and put out a helluva a spark. For most mild street motors, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with a good old Bosch blue and points... but as you climb the rpm the conventional coil ignition has les and less time for the field to collapse in the coil, leaving less output to fire. Coupled with rich mixtures from big Webers, high CR, etc... it can spell trouble on seriously high hp stuff.... like what happened with my boss and my car. The mag blew through any misfires... the car became an uncaged animal.
So I would say above, yeah locked mag is probably my answer, but I'd say a good MSD system and their distributor is a close option.

jim
do you think the "trouble free" motoring of an modern type ignition system out-wieghs the enjoyment of an old-skool system ?
i hear what your saying about points being easy to fix etc , but if your ignition never goes wrong does this take away from your enjoyment ??
i kinda think an out-and-out resto job should have points , but if youre starting from "somewhere else' you should go with whats right ?
my car came with a 6al , and i think its kinda coll , old/newschool .
but i would have no probs fitting a more modern msd box . (i'm happy as it is)
however , if my car was equipped with a mag when i bought it , i'd be keeping it on .
if it had points , id allready be thinking about changing them to msd/mallory etc,

after having many breakdowns in the past due to points , i'm kinda against them on a reliabilty point :)
but i will quote the guy who is restoring an old lambretta for me .........  " they didnt fuck around in 1966 when these where new , you looked at one , the salesman started it no problem , you bought it , you rode it home !! you think they had to change the points eveytime a customer wanted to see it running ?? did they fuck !! these where reliable then , and they can be now !! dont listen to the bullshit !!"

hes persuaded me , but i'm not sure id remove the msd from my beetle and revert to npoints .

thx Jim for your good explination of things...  I can't follow 100% but I will read it a few times and talk about it with my friend who knows a lot more of it...

A little bit off topic but you have not replied to my "looking for a quiet muffler" topic...  What is your idea on dual quiet packs with a 1 5/8  flanges?  Or you can reply in the topic...  I'm curious about it because you know a lot about this stuff...  ;)  :D

Dem

What about dual point distributors, Jim? Mallory/Scat made some back in the day for vw´s but it seems no one runs them today?

sorry I don't have any experience with them, and the idea behind dual point seems kind of ancient to me. I did try a single point Mallory just before putting the borrowed Vertex in my car and since rotor was misindexed I never got it to run.


One thing about point and/or magnetic pickup ignitions, but with non-CD coils...  make sure you have 12v to 1.5 on coil
I found on my '67 about 18 years ago that my coil was getting about 8v to it. So I wired up a relay under rear seat, Bosch part # 0332019150, powered directly off batery + terminal, output going to coil, and switched by lead from ignition switch.... same idea as a hard start relay but going to coil instead of starter. Not a huge hp thing, but will help eliminate any misfires, poor running. Make sure coil is making a blue-white spark... not an orange one.

They are a B*tch to adjust. I swop the point with an electrinic module when I can. Better and easier. - Back in the days, when these dual points were new, an electronic device would set you back with a substansial amount. Today they are obsolete.
T

 As Louis pointed out, what's wrong with points?  Jim gave the right answer...you can see what you have.  Back in the day, virtualy no one ran electronix and the cars still ran great for what they were.  Only the occasional Joe Hunt magneto to pollute the sea of 010 distributors and Bosch blue coils.  I think what governs a lot of folks decisions is... "what is everybody else using?" rather then what would really be right for my set up.  I'm still a big advocate of points...you just need to set them up properly and it's a painless deal.  I like a dwell meter reading of 46 degrees.  A second look a few days after new points usually reveals closed (50+ dwell) due to the fiber block wearing in...re-set to 46 and your good to go.  My $.02...

This was the VW Speedshop 'own brand' header and muffler I bought from VW Speedshop shown fitted as supplied.

As you can see it is "like nothing in the world" for sure. Nothing of any use that is!

Total shite. LMAO  ;D

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/SanchoPancho/General/qualitymuffler.jpg)

viagra?

Even with a stern rubbing this product remained a flop! Its a Hoodride thing I think, dragin' sparx. Yo! 

Hey Mat, did you ever stop to think that maybe your car is the one that's crooked?

As for ignition- MSD, Mallory, Bosch, Stinger, etc. they all work fine- I personally like MSD products (EXCEPT THE DIGITAL 6 - THOSE DON'T WORK!!!)

dont know much about ignitions but i can say that points are good if kept in check once in a while. like Sarge said. and with points you actually set your adavance as well. points that open sooner (and have more gap) have by this more advance, so that is partially why people prefer electronics over points as it will eliminate that factor. i have a single points scat distributor (same as an old treuhaft or mallory) and it is a good solid piece except on mine there is no marking to find your n°1 cylinder and that was a bit off a hassle to set correctly. same problem Jim had when he had his installed i imagine. but now that i got it running i like it, but still on a small engine i like my 019 with one spring (thanks for that John Rayburn) best. it ran great and it does a little what was said about a bigger advance at idle and a full advance coming in sooner. you'll pick up a lot off HP there and a good acceleration. so i guess a MSD or Mallory would suit you best as i think you want to start looking for that extra OUMPHFF in your engine. and you'll use it in all your engines afterwards as it can be modified for whatever use you want it to.

Damn it Steve, no I didn't. I had better check!  :D


My switch to Mallory was due mainly to the quality of the 009 which as Jim has already said has slipped somewhat in recent years. Up intil now I have had an 009 and points and that was pretty much OK for my use. There were a couple of performance issues but they could have probably have been worked out were it worth it but with the quality being what it is I didn't believe that to be worthwhile.

What issue's have you had with the Digital 6 Steve??  Mine has behaved fine so far!

7 years on my Digital 6, no problems. Guess I'm lucky ;) I've installed them on lots of customer cars, not one failure. It's all in the battery wiring. Re magnetos, the Vertex style mag is the only one that has dependable provisions for advance. Mallory gave up on their advance setup years ago as it would fly apart. Running a mag for extended periods can develop a lot of heat, try grabbing one thats been running awhile.. :D My best results have been with the MSD dist(especially the newer ones with cad plated inners) and D6 or 6AL boxes. That said, I did have a Blaster2 coil fail recently. I would like to try the Mallory dist, they have a good reputation.

hmm are you sure that its a vWSS header??? its a first system fited like that I've ever seen I know that building engines could be dificoult but didn't know that someone can fit wrongly a such simple thing as header and muffler :)
If its a crap why CB Performance sels it :)
I runn with this system with no problems lots of Green Harts guys runn them with no problems :)

I have to agree with Jim.  I have been running a Mallory Mag with a locked advance for many years now.  It has seen many street miles, and is now on my drag-only setup.  I can attest that it has worked flawlessly.  There are pros and cons like everything else: heavy-yes, expensive-yes, power-robbing-no, bad on the street-no, hard to start- in some cases yes, but I have it on a 13.5to1 drag motor using a Hi-Torque starter like Berg sold (don't know if they still have them) and have NEVER had a problem starting it.

I have tried many different ignition sysrems for my setup, including the famous MSD 7Al2 on a crank trigger, and the mag made more hp on the dyno (I have proof for any non-believers).

Anyway, the 009 is a great street distributor, but does have its limitations.  Going to a mag would be my choice.  There is some maintenance required, but it is one less thing that can drain your battery like a CD ignition will!

JayP

Just Rotate it 1 hole up and use as an extra Bumper Guard ;D ;D ;D

I've been watching on the internet for a msd setup.  The site is dummy proof so I get an good explination about their products.

which box is the most suitable for a beetle?  You have the 6a and the 6al and 7 series and...  I think if I buy a msd setup I go for the 6al....  Right choice?  ???

And then for the coils...  you have a blaster coil, a 2, a 3, ... coil...  Which one is the right choice?  ???

And the most important question, will I feel the difference...  You get much b*llsh*t about 1000000000000 volts and blablabla but will it improve my ET's ?  :P  ;D

Dem

I run the 6a with a Bosch red coil. I set my plug gap at .060 and it loves it. I don't know that it will add power, however it will allow a freer reving engine and you will need to richen things up. I went to an MSD box in the early nineties because of the oxygenated fuels. I would have to run it so rich, that if it idled too long, I'd foul my plugs. The MSD took care of all that.

Well, I'm not hoping for a giant hp increase but I hope the engine runs "smoother"  When I drive it for a distance at low rpm's and I want to rev it, the plugs aren't working "right", the engine holds back a few seconds and then I'm gone...  Also the same as John, when the car idled for a while it is a real bitch to rev it correctly...  I hope I solve that with a msd system...  ???

Dem

Depending on your set up, you will typically see 4-6 hp increase. But the bottom end torque will improove noticeably. Your idle will get better, and your emission will drop.
A blaster 2 is fine.
T

saw in the mag they have the new 6AL-2, digital version of the old 6AL, looks like they responded to Mallory's digital boxes, took them quite a while to do it though

Hi Dem,

I would recommend a Mallory HyFire VI box as it offers more for less money than a MSD 6 AL! You already have a two-step, a start retard etc. and you don´t need RPM chips! I´m useing the mallory box with a Treuhaft 010 dissy with a Unilite module and it works just fine.
Bye,

Tobi

Thx for the information Tobi.  I will look on the internet for more information about the mallory box and the treuhaft dissy etc...  I probably will buy it this winter so I can still watch out for different options...  Did you buy it in Germany or in the us?

Dem

Msd,Mallory or Petronix for me.

In the 80's i used the Jacobs system ;D

I bought all the ignition parts (besides the dissy) at Summit Racing.
The Treuhaft/Scat/Mallory dissy is not really hard to get. Just have a look at the samba.com ads.

I'm wondering the same thing, as I have a set on the way from vwparts...

I've never ran a digital 6 box, but I've known several people that have, and they have all had problems with them.  One shut the car off and wouldn't restart after the first 5 miles on the car.  Another randomly started dropping cylinders.  Others made the motor feel like it was loading up with fuel at high 6+ rpm.  Every one of these cases ended with the owners going back to their old 6A or 6AL boxes.   I'll say it right now, MSD makes some great products, but their digital series are just to finicky for me to trust.  The Buick turbocharged V6 crowd is going through the same problem with MSD's DIS4 ignition- popping, loading up, cutting out- once the car is back to stock GM ignition the car is back to making power.  I will say, however, that this Sunday I walked around Fontana and I think I saw a DIS-4 ignition on the floor of the Red Baron, so maybe it's working for them.

If you have a Digital 6, then run it- I just wouldn't reccommend it to anybody in the market for an ignition right now.

Remember guys, this is just my two cents, and last I checked it wasn't worth any more than anybody else's...   except the europeans- with this exchange, I think theirs is worth four and a half cents or something like that.

Bosch 010 w/ Pertronix fired off by a MSD box hidden under the rear seat :)

i like the new MSD digital programmable ignition systems
for a distributor i believe u can machine down a MSD BBC or SBC distributor to make it into a VW distributor which spaces out the terminals more for running more advance,
if u could get a ProMag44 for a 4 cylinder id prob run that
other than that im going to run a CPC setup off my Fast EFI

;D

I think so , too. That will be the setup in my '67 "street" car. I want the classic look, but also a 2 step, rev limiter, and so on.

Change it to Mallory and that is my plan.

--louis

I run the MSD Distributor with Crane Fireball Hi 6 Box and Coil. No RPM plug-ins !! (check out Jegs for fair pricing)). If needed you can weld-up a truck on the emergency lane ;D

I run a Bosch 050 with a 6V coil with points. Never had any problems, works great.

I run an MSD 6AL with a 009/pertronix ignitor and a Blaster 2 coil at the moment, I've got a Pertronix 2 distributo to go on but am unsure of what springs i need to fit yet...


oh and i've got to finish the car yet!

will let you know in a couple of years how I get on ;D

Got the new MSD digital 6 installed and tested out on SCC in my friends car... Had no problems whatsoever with the ignition and I'm very satisfied(so far) :-)
(with MSD distributor and Blaster 2 coil)

I had a MSD dizzy, 6AL and Blaster 2 coil, with a 2 step in my old racecar. With no charging it sapped battery power - had to stick it on a charger between runs to keep it tip top.

I love my 010 dist w/msd 6al box - easy to keep up - check the point gap every 5k - has never changed.