The Cal-look Lounge

Anyone got some good pics of engines with Magnetos? I know Dave Mason runs/ran one.

Thanks,

--louis

here's the dark lord engine in 97 at bernie's house

My little one?

Cheers

J

That is sweet looking.

--louis

I'll see if I can dig up my old pic from 1992 when I had my Super Flow 2276 motor with my ex-boss' Vertex in it.

Heres Mine

IMO, next to seeing a set of IDA's stuffed into a VW engine compartment, there's nothing else that makes such a dramatic difference to the "look" of a high performance VW engine.  I've considered running one for years, but with today's electronic ignitions, it seems there's nothing to be gained by running one.... ;)

Still, they look awesome sitting on top of our engines! 8)

It used to be that you needed a special tach to read a magneto.  Will today's tachs read a mag or do you need some extra part?

Autometer makes a Mag Tach if you already have a standard Tach they make an adapter box to convert the tach for a Magneto

Run a JOE HUNT just for the "MOJO" !
 8)

I just picked up a NOS Vertex Magneto for a good deal from a guy in Australia. He said he bought it in Germany. Going to send it to Joe Hunt to check it out and make some mods to it.  My Christmas present to myself.  ;D

I feel like my nice little street engine is taking on a life of its own. Just how do you know when a project has gone to far?  ;)

--louis

either when you go broke or you hate driving it  ;D

Or your broke, its broke and you hated driving it!... ;D

Yep, pretty much when its not fun anymore.  ;)

Nice looking motor!  What do you know about the Ronco?  I see a VW/Audi logo, so maybe from an industrial motor?

As far as I can tell the Ronco is a Vertex like the Joe Hunt or Don Zig mag. They seem to make a lot for Chevy BB/SB motors & flatheads. The one I bought has the same tag on it with the Audi/VW logo.

--louis

I have a Scintilla magneto from a industrial engine laying around. Is possible to make it work on a street engine? The rotor is a funny looking arc-shaped peace of metal, not a bakelite one. The advance is 12° at 1750rpm or something. I plan to open it up someday ad see if i can adapt the advance mechanism somehow. What about the rotor? Its possible to fit a plastic-vertex? rotor in there or it will work with the metal one. The magnets would need recharging probably.

Eugene, it sounds to me like you´re missing the rotor. The spring loaded arch shaped metal thing is the rpm limiter that you have to disable to run the mag in a car.
Unless you REALLY know what you´re doing I´d send it to Joe Hunt and let them fix the advance curve. They can do the 009 curve at least.

Can anybody explain,how is the advance curve changed in magneto?How can this be done?

And also,is it a lot of work to lock out the magneto ?  :)

If you remove the bottom section of the magneto, there is a pack of sliding weights, which are stamped with markings to show the advance curve. The rate of advance can be altered by changing these weights. Alternatively, the weights can be removed and replaced by a locking plate.

Ronco mags were used a lot in aviation applications and were available from VW. They are the same as any Vertex/Scintilla magneto.

This topic might make a good tech article. hint hint.  ;)

--louis

http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,2181.0.html (http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,2181.0.html)

http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,859.0.html (http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,859.0.html)

http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,3215.0.html (http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,3215.0.html)

This link from the first post has some really good tech info on mags.

http://www.fuelinjectionenterprises.com/magfaq.htm

http://www.fuelinjectionenterprises.com/magsngremlins.htm

--louis

Thanks guys

I adore the look of the magneto

I would love to read the story again where Jim installed jerry's magneto and his engine turned into a mean firespitting mofo...  ;D  anybody can paste the link here?  that story really cracked me up.

 ;D you remember that? hahaha

here you go
Back 1991 or 1992 I had just put the Super Flow'd 2276 in my '67, after spending every cent I earned on the thing, back then was a full tilt street (?) motor for its time... 82 Scat crank, Bugpack race rods, 46 x 38 Super Flows, 9.2:1, 48 Webers, big merged, Berg K10 cam, but I was a real greenhorn, especially with the carbs, and really had no idea of how to make the Webers really happy, and my boss, who you've all read about, Jerry @ Buggy House, was always after me to stay late at the shop after hours and he'd help me get the thing to run right. There was one night I finally agreed and I'll never forget it. This was a few weeks before a VW drag day/show at Sears Point. So we shut the shop down, count the money from the day, back up computer, then we back my car into shop, about 7pm or so.... Jerry has me pull jet stacks, I think we started with 175 fuels or something, then ran the car around the block, and it was burping and stumbling as it came up on cam, so Jerry thinks we're rich, goes down on fuel jets, run around block again, now it revs up, but lays down up on top... so he tries air jets, no change... he decides the ignition is breaking up after 6Krpm, so we throw a Bosch Red on, no change, really... so he runs back to his racecar trailer, and comes walking back to shop with a locked Vertex and says "this f*cker ain't gonna give up at 8-grand! Gawdam thing will arc weld if you need it to...just rev the mutherf*cker!" I just stood there thikning "ok...." So we bolt in the car, he buzzboxes the timing in @ 36 (!), I go to fire car, of course the starter wants no part of this locked mag trying to turn the crank backwards, I glance worried at Jerry.... then he says "Don't turn the mutherf*ucker on before you crank it, you'll never get this bitch to fire!" so I click off ground, crank crank crank...finally fires up and it's idling up @ 2000rpm and the motor sounds pissed. I blip throttle and it barks back at me like a crazed dog. We turn the idle down back to 1100rpm, Jerry hops in driver's seat, I join him in passenger seat and we blast down the driveway, Jerry sending the car sideways past the dumpster and out to Mission Blvd. Foothill Blvd was up the hill, just east of Mission, and ran parallel to Mission down to Jackson, and it was our test and tune loop. Jerry turned off of Mattox on to Foothill and wooded the thing. I have no idea what rpms we were turning because I didn't have the right tach for the mag, but there was a clear advantage running the Vertex.... I could tell from Jerry's driving. We went into 3rd gear and he said "This f*cker's gonna KILL somebody if you're not careful.... Jeeeeezus jumped up chr-st!!!! Get me the f*ck out of this thing!" We were flying down Foothill past Grove, now in fourth, Jerry white as a ghost, and white-knuckled, but still in it...  I was holding on for my life. We came down A-St, back to Mission and Jerry's now short shifting the car and quiet. We get back to shop and he says "you can leave that mag in there for Sears if you want...  ain't no way that 009 is gonna let that f*cker run like that. You better start saving your money...."
And for about a month, I ran my car around that way, and I have to say, still to this day, nothing has ever made such an impression on me, as far as a big power change, as going from 009/Bosch coil to that locked Vertex. When I had to give the mag back and go back to the 009, it was like unplugging a cylinder.

 
 
 

Cool story. Say, you have not made any changes to that motor in at least a month have you?  ;)

--louis

That IS one of the best stories around.

Hi louisb, nope, nothing's changed

Cool! I will definitely  open up my scintilla next week and post some pictures. Then we'll se what can be done.;D

Oh man what a story! love it jim!  :D

Why didn't you save up for a magneto if it was THAT good?

Thanks. Shortly after this, I raced the car @ Sears Pt Raceway, in fall of 1992, and had no idea how to pre load the trans, etc. Actually that entire trip to the drags is a story in itself, as car was originally going to get trailered, but ended up getting driven. Anyway, I went pretty far in ET2 elim's running a 13.76 on 13.75 dial in, on 195/60 radials, but split trans case completely in half at drain plug. Got home and found a huge puddle of gear oil. After that I shelved the car for a good 6 months, and after that moved away to live with some girl and go to college and ran out of money really fast.

Women seem to have a way of doing that to a guy.  ;)

--louis

Some do, but not all...   ;)

Thinking about why later I never saved up for a Vertex, I ended up with the MSD stuff I have now, for a song. The box I bought for next to nothing from my old friend Mike Collins, had it tested at MSD for nothing, and got the distributor for $80 from another friend in 1995.
BUT
if I had my choice?

I'd go back to a locked mag.

To me the fewer things hung between the motor and the car the better. That's "cal look" to me.

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a6/Hotrodvw/Aaron11.jpg)
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a6/Hotrodvw/Aaron2.jpg)

Broughton's oval.... drool...

Uh huh....... ;)


You know it's for sale again, right?? ???

Indeed I do. I'm in love with that car!

http://www.oldbug.com/ab57.htm

(http://www.oldbug.com/409%20060.jpg)

Jim wrote:
BUT if I had my choice?

I'd go back to a locked mag.

Why a locked-out mag? 

Years ago I understood a locked-out set up was preferred for turbo applications.  They tended to be very difficult to start.

Why not have an advance modeled after an 009 or something?

I don't have a clue what a magneto costs these days?   ???  How much do you need to spend for a nice magneto prepped and ready for your big T1 engine?

Oh, say about $1000 for a new Joe Hunt or $3-500 for a used one. Then about $50 if you want a converter to use a normal tach and another $150 if you want a pro-control box to use as a rev limiter.
Alternatively you could pick up a used industrial engine mag, lock it out with a welder and just go... Say about $50 if you´re lucky. But I can imagine it will be somewhat hard to start!

I'm gonnna sound REALLY STUPID here but why is it harder to start a "locked out" magneto  ???

You can get them from $350 - $500 if you keep an eye on the samba. This is the guy I bought mine from:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=705610

Here is another one I looked at:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=649396

But then you do need to add a rev limiter and a tach converter. Plus any service it might need. Joe Hunt quoted me $250 to check mine out, lock out the timing and polish the housing. I need to get a side exit cap as well since mine has the plug wires attached at the top.

--louis

Lee, wouldn´t you agree it´s basically harder to start an engine the more static ignition it has, mag ignition or not?

Louis, why do you need the side exit cap other than for looks?

Hmm never really thought about that but yes of course it does  ::) told you I was gonna sound silly  :D :D :D

Well, I think it will be harder to start at least compared to if it has a good advance curve. Maybe Jim can comment on that? JHU has a locked mag that he got checked at Don Zig´s. He didn´t seem to think it was that much of a problem.
Of course it also depends if you run 6 or 12V on the car, compression ratio, 10 year old worn out battery or a new gel cell, new super-hi-po-5hp starter or the old one that came with the car etc etc.  ;)
I thought my car was a bit hard to start with the industrial engine mag. But the advance was only 12 degrees and my battery was really old. Now I´m sending the mag to Joe Hunt for reconditioning and a 009 advance curve. Also got a new Optima 6V battery yesterday.  ;D

To make sure it clears my CB Linkage. And well, it just looks cleaner.  ;D

--louis

Hmmm you've given me ALOT to think about for PROJECT 66, its VERY interesting that you can convert it to use a "normal" tach  ;)

if you try to start the motor with locked advance, with either mag or MSD, with system "on" you probably will not get anywhere. I wired my CD box seperate from starter-key. The MSD is turned on after motor cranks, then a blip of throttle and it's go time. You can do the same with a mag. You can do the same with a blue coil and a simple Bosch relay too if you're running an 009 or 010 or whatever.

Lot's of good info here..... ;)

http://www.donzig.com/techmenu.html

Hey Jim, what´s the theory behind "priming" the system like that? Did you use a separate switch that you flip while running the starter?

I still don't understand why you have to lock the advance, if I understand correctly not everybody does it.

The story of Jim is nice but can someone else also tell their story?  Is every engine a real mean firespitting mofo after installing this beauty?  ;D
I'm running a 009 basic setup now but I want something else...  I was thinking about a msd setup but the magneto sounds tempting...  ;D

now this is just plain showing off  :o ::)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/streetvw/flashbackblack.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/streetvw/GROSSCHOP.jpg)

(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d18/autocraft/hilbornmotor.jpg)

So how do you get that motor to float in thin air like that Martin. :D ;D

Yeah I am still a little confused as to why you it won't want to start after it has been "switched on"  :-\ ??? :)

is it just the shear amount of charge build up  :-\ ??? :)

I have ran one for years with advance and locked. Hunt and Zig offer relays to tie in with your ignition switch or like I always done which is a theft prevention and allows one to crank the motor without starting the engine. If you have an electric fuel pump and it's wired to the switch you don't have to crank the motor and worrying about it starting the motor. you can mount a toggle switch under the dash. or use a early type wiper switch. push pull type of switch.  In doing so with a separate switch It allows you to crank the motor and purp the throttle then hit the switch to ignite the mag. When you have that locked mag or distributor which is at total advance it's difficult to start when cranking the motor at few hundred rpm's. so when you let it crank and get some rotation growing then hit the switch to ignite the mag they start easier.

My engine has a mag on it, set at 32-33°. Its all "on" when I turn the ignition key... and it fires right up... even when hot!? And this is with a 12 volt starter, I have been given the tip to fit a 6 volt starter which I'm going to do to get the revs up during start up, to get that "sure fire" feeling.

With a nice and healthy long duration camshaft the static CR of 11.3 doesn't affect my engine much since the dynamic is way down.
This is just my thoughts on this, there might be another reason entirely as to why it works... ::)

And don't forget, I also had a magneto on my Okrasa-engined Split-window! I wonder who else in the UK had three cars on the street at the same time with Magnetos? :D

Do you get the feeling I like them? If my 'new' car didn't already have an MSD and two-step etc, I'd run a mag in a heartbeat.

keith, did you also feel a major difference like Jim did?

Maybe you should reconsider now that you've got all that book money burning a hole in your pocket..... ;) 

glad you mention it jimma! ;)
but when running a mag you do need an electric fuel pump. (hint!)  ;D

sez who?

wow! i figured you'd NEED the clamp on a mag.
cool cap too!!

I wish! ;D

Hi Lee, if you watch an old Laurel and Hardy movie etc... watch how people got their arms ripped off when trying to hand crank an old car without backing the ignition advance up. That's why all those old timer cars had those levers on the steering wheel. At cranking rpms, a motor doesn't want to light off with 30 degrees advance. In fact, you're trying to turn the crank backwards... that's why the starter "complains". At 7-12 degrees, a good starter/battery isn't going to protest.
I run my car @ 28 degrees locked. When I ran the Vertex in my car for those weeks, we ran it @ 36. Two different motors accepted two different advance amounts (cam overlap, CR, etc....). My current motor fires best if I crank starter and get motor moving, then ignite the MSD. The same thing would happen with ground switch on a mag (locked). When my motor is cold, the little Autostick starter struggles if I try to fire car up with MSD on before I crank, especially if I squeeze the throttle. When engine is warm, no problem, it will start like a normal car. But when it's cold, this is the process:

click on fuel pump/MSD for a few seconds to fill bowls (MSD and fuel pump are on same switch)
turn fuel pump/MSD off
crank engine 4-5 cranks
turn on fuel pump/MSD
open throttle slightly
engine fires, blip throttle lightly to clear
let it warm up for a few moments

off we go

thanks for clarifying jim, no i can really see the process! :)

nice one, now I understand it too but still I need more input how other guys their engines' reaction was on this ignition instead of a 009 or something like that...

Kinda off topic: I do not have a mag, but I recently locked out my mallory unilite at 28 degrees and the car actually started EASIER that my previous setting of 10 degrees initial and 30 total advance. I do not have a seperate switch for the ignition box. Its on when the car cranks over. With that being said the seat of pants meter tells me the car accelerates softer when the advance is locked, but it idles and cruises along much nicer. Like a stocker. No IDAs on/off nonsense. Just my findings.

Does cam duration and compression ratio play a factor in the locked mag thing?

Big time. High static CR and low duration would make it harder to get it to fire
Low CR and big drag cam would make it easier.
At least on paper. Now you have to figure real world factors too, like how well the carbs are set, plugs, plug gap, fuel quality, condition of motor.

Just adjusting your valves tight (too tight) will allow the starter to whirr away like you've got no plugs in the thing.
Want to piss somebody off, like an ex girlfriend with an air cooled VW that you built a bitchin motor for and then turns out to be a real bitch... ? Climb under her car when she's asleep and tighten their valves up, nice and snug...  hahah try and get to work tomorrow NOW, in your squareback...  :-X
Or you could just simply take the pushrods out of the motor. that works well too.
Sorry.... got off topic...

I'd like to know how guys were able to get away with stock fuel pipe and pump and so on with these 11 sec cars.

As SOON as I put 48's on my car, the carbs starved at high rpm/load, even with raising float levels and going 3.00 needles. I lost a crucial street race against "schteev" in front of all my friends, a real blow to the ego. It took a Holley pump and regulator and AN-6 hose all the way back to allow me to keep my foot in it.

How you guys get away with it?

I'm wondering if your tank vent might be plugged or crimped.  Of course there's the pick-up screen in the tank, but I'd bet you've looked at that.  As for how we did it, back then there were very few choices so we made due with what we had.  The only guy I knew in DKP with an electric fuel pump was Greg Aronson and all but Ron Fleming ran 010 or 009 distributors.

I love the magneto. I run an MSD (Mysterious Spark Disapperance per Lanny) in the DRKC ghia, but for HOT spark the Mag is the way to go.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z148/2manytoys_photo/TheNotchMotor.jpg)

I have one or two motors with Mags, always will.

Remind me to never piss you off.  :-* ;D

Okay, I searched the net for some magneto / vertex / scintilla options...

I suppose you are nothing with a scintilla unless you prep (send them to joe hunt or another iginition wizard dude) them for your hi-po engine?

what about a vertex with vw/audi logo on it?

+ When do you need to lock it out or when do you need an advance curve and which advance curve?

I don't care if my car starts worse I just want to go faster...  ;D  but I like to keep a smooth driving engine, not a no hp @ low rpm drag engine...  Hope you guys understand me...

OK, I first used a magneto on the recommendation of Dave Kawell when I built my first turbo engine back in 1989. The mag was locked out and the advance set at 24° BTDC - the standard timing for a turbo engine at the time. The engine always fired right up and never suffered any misfires. The only reason I eventually changed to an MSD 7-AL system was for its versatility and the fact that, with a crank-trigger system, there was absolutely no 'scatter' when setting the advance with a timing light. There is always some scatter when using a mag or distributor/points, which is not a real problem on a regular motor, but you want perfect timing on a high-boost turbo motor running a shot of laughing gas..

On my street engines, I largely ran a magneto for the mojo, as Darrell Vittone so neatly described it. But, the engines always fired up, never suffered a misfire and the mag looked way cooler than any MSD ever could. Two of the mags I used were former military industrial motor ones, with an advance curve originally set to suit a low rpm, low load motor running at constant speed for hours on end. These are the type that most commonly show up at swap meets. They will work on a hi-po street engine but the advance curve isn't really that great – you might as well have it locked out as the advance is usually all in by about 900rpm! The other problem is that the internal coils break down with time and a former NATO military magneto which has been sat in a bunker somewhere for 40 years will usually work but, when it gets hot, the engine won't restart until the mag has cooled right down. They are often fitted with a rev-limiting rotor arm, too, set at about 2500rpm...

I had my magnetos rebuilt by Bill Morris here in the UK, but I'm not sure he is still around. He was mainly a motorcycle guy but very knowledgeable on all things Vertex. I used to send him the mag, along with an old Bosch 010, and ask him to reset the mag advance to match that of the distributor. It worked for me.

I used the mags in the Chop-top and Flashback with a pair of AutoMeter Pro-Controls, one set as a rev limiter, the other to control a shift-light.

The best I can say is that a magneto will give you a fat spark when you most need it: at high rpm under load. And because it is totally independent of the car's electrical system, you don't need to worry about a failing battery. MSDs hate low battery voltage... This is an important thing to remember when your car runs two big fuel pumps, a nitrous system and the ignition system, all off a single battery. The situation is made even worse if your race car doesn't have a charging system.

Running a locked-out mag on the street shouldn't be a major problem unless you floor the throttle at very low rpm – then your motor will 'ping' like a samba band. Most distributors are 'all in' by 1800rpm, or so, meaning that once the engine's above that rpm, it won't know if you have a locked mag or not. That's assuming you have a mechanical-advance distributor (009, 010 etc) – a vacuum-advance distributor is a whole different ball game...

great info keith,

Bill morris has retired now but he recommends a guy called Tom Dark, who's near oxford.

he's going through my magneto at the moment, he does a lot of drag race/street VW mags, including all the ones that Ian clark has used.

Keith, very nice!   I'm getting to know my way in the dark woods called: magnetos.  thx!!

Dem

Can you provide me the contact information for tom dark please?

Dem

Keith,

So for a NA street engine do you recommend an 010 advance curve over locking out the mag?

Thanks,

--louis

That would by my preference.  :)

is there a big difference in a 010 and a 009 ?  Technically, besides the good looks...?

Two pictures of two engine combos out of 4 (all with magneto) on the Muppet Racer.

sure thing.......Tom Dark...01993 868 840.

Well here is a solution to those who want the magneto "mojo" but have a need to run an msd
These units are identical to a magneto. housing, cap and even come with a Hunt Magneto metal ID tag
just like a traditional magneto. I have had these available for some time. we made some changes over the past year or so
like the rotor is in the same postion for number one as any vw distributor.
So if you want that traditional look with an electronic ignition here is a option.
the units have a 40,000 volt coil inside the unit, so all one sees are the wires going back to your msd box under the back seat.
I have spoke with a business in england that may be soon stocking them
otherwise I can ship them any where.
thanks
 Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!

gotta put this in here, my 2520cc 911s motor, with a vertex mag that i ordered from vertex usa...

 :o :o :o!!  Nice, Jyri!  Years ago I had a job working at Scott's Independent Porsche.  Scott's delivery truck was a sweet '69 Double Cab with a '71 mechanicaly injected 911-E motor stuffed in the back.  Always a treat to run errands. ;) 8)

010 has a quicker advance.

That is true. I have noticed that if I drive my car with no discipline, and give it the boot way down low, like under 2000rpm, it will ping, if it is hot out. So I roll into it just as I know the motor will take it. I think running damn near 9.8:1 on California-piss gas might have something to do with it too.... ::)

here you go! :)

let us say that when you are above 2500 rpm there is no more advantage or am I wrong?  the mag functions the same above let us say 2500 RPM ?

IF you have a car with a locked mag and one with an advantage curve in it will there a difference @ 3 - 4 - 5 - 6000 rpm?  Or is there only a difference under 2500 rpm?

Once its all in, its all in so I don't think there would be a difference. It sounds like locking a Dizzy or a Mag really only helps at low rpms. But for a street car, where do you do most of your driving? Not 7,000 rpms.

--louis

No more MSD, alternator is next to go



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