The Cal-look Lounge

Hi,

I am very curious to this version of the Okrasa origins.

I am owner of a TIV Okrasa built in 1975 and I have been involved in the design of the Gene Berg crank that orginated in Sweden late seventies. So it is for me a dear topic.
The first Okrasas are from long time before mid seventies when I had my first contacts.

You have an intereresting story to tell.
This is a nice topic that needs more engagemant and knowledge and people.
So please share!

very cool topic. even the gene berg crank from sweden is a nice topic on it's own. so maybe you can share that one as well?

It was my understanding that Joe Vittone got Okrasa to build the first VW Okrasa cranks. I believe it was when he first got his Dealership, and people were bringing their cars in with broken stock cranks. Joe didn't want the customer to know, so he'd have them leave the car, and he'd stick a new Okrasa in without them knowing it. VW hadn't been here long, and he didn't want  his investment to get a bad rap. So, I'd say the actual design was from somebody here under Vittone's employ.

i'm building an 2332cc engine based on a Okrasa crank this one is built up with Porsche 912 rods and hopefully we do a testrun tomorrow :)

I think that Okrasa cranks are one of the best, just bought me another 84mm that i'm going to use with H-beams that i have and the camshaft is going to be a FK-10.

Pics from the 2332cc engine


(http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/2456/okrasa84mmpic1ae5.jpg) (http://img520.imageshack.us/my.php?image=okrasa84mmpic1ae5.jpg)

Are you sure you want to use the 912 rods? They go boom.

We soon find out ;)

it's all in how high you rev the engine 8000rpm ::)  ooops!

Try to build a simle engine with stock rockers and a lot of torque only for street abuse :D

I ran OEM 912 rods on an 84mm Okrasa crank for years in the sand dunes and loved the low end torque the combination made.  Twisted that motor hard and never lost a rod though I eventually broke the crank :(.  Good luck with your build. :)

Check this out if you want some crank history.
Sister forum but so what.
http://www.cal-look.com/forum/index.php/topic,26031.0.html

that's some interesting reading!!

Wow Frallan!!
Amazing reading, this is such a small world, I had never thought that the Berg cranks came about in this way... but now that I know it sort of makes sense.

I hope you can forgive me but I just have to post your story here to, ok?

*******

Hi,

First of all I must admit that I am slightly egocentric and like to share the experiences I have had in my 32 years of ACVW journey.

Me and my dragrace partner building a VW dragster noticed the weak link in Swedish VW autocross and dragracing.
Cast cranks breaking, SPG rollers twisting and breaking even after being welded and then the famous flyweel breaking loose even on the forged Okrasa in autocross.
Scat released a flanged but cast crank. (it took a fair amount of years before they went forged albeit not multi step hammered) One Swedish dragracer broke it in first season.
Afraid like H..ll I wrote to Gene Berg.
He sent me a 7 page answer about how good his welded OEM strokers with wedgemate were. Still have the letter from 1976.
Our partner for building our dragster T1 VW engine with 911 OHC heads was Christer Lindstrom.
He insisted on that the best crank was an Okrasa. (in some way he was right)
I disagreed and bought a 78 stroke wedgemate GB. (Still have it and in good shape after all these years)
Christer had this idea of forging his own VW crank with much larger counterweights than the small ones of Okrasa. He also had an idea of doing larger main bearings from 411.

Christer has been brought up and gone through engineering schools right in the hot spot of Swedish foundry and metalurgy area.
His friends worked at the foundries doing a lot of goodies for the racing industry.

When Christer saw the BG crank and the counter weights, he asked me if he could borrow it for a week. I said yes.
He simply took it to Bofors foundry. (Same place that does world famous weapons)
They copied the GB welded crank.
Next step was for Christer to find a good place to machine his multi step hammered forgings.  Now this is when the next steps comes in to place. Christer contacted Gene and they become family friends and partners for life. I know that somewere in the process Gene even sent his loose counter weigts for his welded cranks to Christer, because I remember him proudly showing them to me.
Next idea of ratio rockers came from these two guys sitting on GBs porch in CA and taking the next step. Multi step hammered forgings and machined in US.
(Very similar rocker forgings are being made by JPM today but with slight improvements and machined in house in Sweden. Even if pricey, worth every penny.)

As for TIV cranks to Jake,  Christer and myself talked. Christer said he could get the original old time guys and forging tools at the foundry to make new imrpoved Okrasa TIV cranks.
These were offered to Jake and I think we had as far as deal can go, if it wasnt the weak dollar. It simply did not make good enough financial sense.
In the last few years since then, the alternatives have become so good, there is no way it will materialize.

Third story were I have been involved is the Christer designed Hemi heads. Bolt on 911 heads for either pushrods or OHC camhousings.
The moulds are in USA since 10-15 years and I know were but it seems very little is happening, if anything at all and possibly it never will but that is off topic for now.

Fredrik Frallan

Thanks for that, JHU!!  Very cool! 8) 8) 8)

Any Germans out there that has Okrasa history to share?

Was it really input from Darell Vittone and his Hot Rodding that got them to do a crank?
That story sounds OK but too me it misses a lot of details and gives me follow up questions.
Why would Darrell take the cost of an imported crank to "save his behind" with customers? Why not just replace it with a 2nd hand or new original?

Whatever the story is, there was a business reason behind why it came to be. A need that could be filled by sales of performance cranks.
My guess would be local German performance needs.
Okrasa built their own motors. How and when did that start?
Is that not the resaon for the original Okrasa crank needs?

Were does Oettinger come in? Much later? How did they relate? Not at all maybe as it might be just me complicating it.

It could be fun finding those answers.

George Ferch was the guy who distributed Okrasa here in the US under the Powerhaus name years ago.  He visits the dealership here occasionaly... would be cool to get his input here.  I'll see what I can do...

I have received the followig from Keith across the Pond.  I knew I had read something about this in the past and here is what Keith offers:



Hi John – Have looked through my e-mails but can’t find one from you regarding Okrasa cranks. Sorry about that!

The US connection regarding Okrasa cranks is referred to in the chapter on race cars in my last book:

”Incidentally, as an aside, although the Okrasa crankshaft has always been regarded as a masterpiece of German engineering, the first such crank was in fact designed for Oettinger by one Cliff Collins, an American who was a partner in the then well-known Harman-Collins speedshop, which specialised in tuning domestic vehicles.”  

Oettinger is Okrasa.

http://www.pre67vw.com/okrasa/

I always used an 82mm and still use an 84mm Okrasa Crank with Porsche Journal and Carrillo's in my Motor...hopefully it will be done one Day... ::)

Frank

Öttinger , Limbach and Gene Berg cranks are the best cranks that were ever manufactured . This quality will never come back because they are too expensive to manufacture . I am very sad about this . Same with the forged and billet steel ones . a forged crank from a good steel is much better and stronger than a billet one .
The forged cranks with Porsch journals were the strongest cranks .

Udo

Hej Udo,which one is the best at this moment.What make do you recommend?

Well, I've heard of several Okrasa cranks that have broken in two...

I've heard them being called "O'cracka"  cranks by several old school guys, Mark Herbert was one of them. I've never even seen one in person so I don't know the quality.

bunch of "serious" big hitter motors that came out of BH ran Okrasa stoker 912 journal cranks. Pete Staat's Dragon ran one, Jim Lose's 12 sec street Ghia (reddish orange KG), Outta Hand Mike's sandrail. At one time in 1994, Overland parts was selling brand new Okrasa Porsche journal cranks to us for under $400 cost.... I wanted one bad, but had no $ then, and already had my Scat volkstroker... ::)
Okrasa and Berg cranks truly are in a class of thier own. A Berg welded stroker.... work of art. When you see one you'll get why they discontinued production due to costs of doing their welded cranks.
An old friend of mine picked up wedged 78mm Berg crank and flywheel in 1995 for $200. :o
Wish somebody would start up production of 912 journal crank again...  like Udo said, strongest ever.

I do, too. But then you still need rods...

If you  want "the best " i would recommend a Berg crank .
I never heard of a broken Öttinger but may be there are some . All that are still on the market are very old and have run a lot of miles . But if you magnaflux them you can be shure they will work . That's my opinion. the 912 rod journal gives every crank some extra material that makes it stronger

Udo

I have a Berg 82mm welded Porsche journal crank in my motor now. It is well over 30yrs old now.. Like JR sez  "work of art" and built to last.

So then you buy some, I guess?

Porsche journal rods are hard to come by, unless you want to part with a kidney and get some Carrillo's.

I am alive and well despite missing a kidney.
Nothing else to report, carry on.  ;)

Got my Porsche Journal 5'5 Carrilo's from the Samba for 300 Dollars...had the rebuild for a 100 Dollars...so i Guess this is easy...

Frank

It seems like the longer ones are easier to find, 5.5's being the most common. I like Porsche journal and length, and those seem to be quite a rare find at an affordable price.

Pauter do 912 journal rods, even a lightweight N/a version.

$?

Around $800-900

Classic Speed (356 specialist) makes or markets an aftermarket, H-beam, 912 length and journal.

OUCH!


I think I remember looking them up once a while back with little luck. Got a link or any other info?

http://www.classicandspeedparts.com/ ??
http://www.classic-parts.com/index.php?q=about ??

That's what I had in my previous Motor...82mm Crank and 5'352 Carrillo's...

Frank

I just picked up Jim Lose's 84mm Okrasa with wedgemated flywheel and 5.352 Carrillos

Nice to read this old thread! Thanks!
It seems like I did a nice trade last year when i swapped some thing on the shelf an picked up an nice 2276 short block with a Okrasa crank and 912 rods and w130 :-)

Now I have to find some nice heads for the engine  -  Should I go with S/F?