The Cal-look Lounge

Ok guys I just installed my new 1915, this engine has a 12v flywheel. My car is from '64 and still has the original gearbox and starter in it. But the car was converted to 12v. I just tried to start it but the starter won't spin the engine around. The starter just runs freely.

I think I need a 12v starter.. My supplier Paruzzi sells 3 types of 12v starters. A quality (€ 200), B quality (€ 100) and a high power version (€ 150). Which should I take?? Do I need anything else?

Thanks!

Jesse

You say it was converted to 12v, but was the flywheel changed?  I know when I did my '66 I left in the 6v starter and flywheel.  If the new engine has a 12v flywheel you may need to clearance the bell housing so it can turn.  I have my tranny builder do it for me when I had the transmission rebuilt way back when.  A 12v flywheel will not fit in a 6v transmission without modification of the bell housing.  Then you will need a 12v starter and a 12v starter bushing in the tranny. Or you can get a 12v self supporting starter and no bushing change will be required.

if you have the orig starter 113911021B then it won't mesh with the 12V flywheel ring gear. You're running the usual 12V 200mm "o-ring" type 130 tooth flywheel? The tooth pattern is finer than the 6v flywheel, which was 109 teeth, and the starter pinions are different for the different ring gear tooth counts.
If you end up needing a 12V starter go for the "Autostick" self supported starter VW # 003911023B or Bosch # 0001212002
that way you do not have to change bushings.... it doesn't use one.
It has slightly more cranking power than the MT starter too. Good when you have stiffer valve springs and higher compression.
Have fun

Auto Stick is the way to go, I use one also.

HI Jesse, I see you are i Netherlands, try to source a starter from Skoda Felicia fuel injected model. These cars were imported to NL in large numbers and they have nice light, hi-torque starter that works with VW perfectly. I have one in my car too.

Are these self supporting ones too, like the Autostick ones? I could do with one to avoid using the horrible conversion bushing in the early gearbox in our 'vert.

thanks for the info dude. what year skoda should we look for? perhaps i should pay a visit to the scrapyard. anyway, if you have more info that be great!
autostick ones are pretty expensive and not that easy to come by over here. i did a quick search after reading jim's post...

i have a 6v gearbox, 6v starter, and a 12v flywheel. With the thick 6>12v bushing you're done!

Surely you mean a 6v gearbox, a 12v starter and a 12v flywheel! ;)

no, 6v starter ;)

And a 12v flywheel? :o


 ;)

hey, I was out of town for few days. I´ll take some pics of the starter for you this evening with some partnumbers and info. It is self supporting starter from Skoda Felicia with multipoint injection engine. I realise that it will be cheap on scrapyards..I buy them new for 90 GBP or so..

I have already changed my starter for a 12 volt one with a special bushing with inner 12v and outer 6v. Friend of mine had one laying around.

Cheers mate, that's just the info I need! ;D



I used one of those before in this gearbox - problem is that the bellhousing has been opened up to run a 130tooth 12V flywheel and where the bushing fits is a little bit thin, therefore the conversion bushing doesn't fit too well and the starter tends to bind, hence the need for a self supporting one.  :)

thinking about it, i have a 6 volt starter, so that probably means i have a 6 volt gearbox although i have long axles...
so then the skoda starter won't fit, right?

still, if you could post some info i can always go and have a look at some scrapyards nearby  ;)

As the Skoda starter is self-supporting, then it should work in the 6V gearbox if you use a 12V flywheel. At least I think it should!

on my 1200 , i had an 12v starter and after changing the gearbox this winter , the 12v don't fit in the gearbox , and i put an old 6v starter i've , and it works  well

sure, it will work if you clearance the 6V gearbox for larger 12V flywheel

here we go:


specs are: 1 kW, 3kg weight, 1500 revs per minute

my starter compared to stock Autostick starter:

(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_nKjezkastzY/SmTa5MLt02I/AAAAAAAACY8/eXGG5p53TfU/s640/DSC01217.JPG)

as you can see, the gear on original starter is driven directly from the motor, but on my starter it is offset due to reduction gear.

(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_nKjezkastzY/SmTa3d42IwI/AAAAAAAACY4/liaACoMOlWc/s640/DSC01219.JPG)

(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_nKjezkastzY/SmTa6iTs3CI/AAAAAAAACZA/jl_OK02GWIc/s640/DSC01218.JPG)

looks good, but what's up with that reduction gear? that won't fit, will it?

Just bringing up this old thread again.
Will the Felicia starter fit in a type 1 without cutting the body?
It looks like the solenoid is angled a bit different than on an original starter which means the starter solenoid will be plased at 12 o'clock when mounted on a type 1 gearbox.
Will you experience interference issues with this starter or not?

/Jacob

i mounted mine last saturday, fits perfectly! it's a LOT smaller.
for some Jan (181) mounted the starter upside down. i mounted like the original starter and worked like a charm. it fired up like a vaccuum cleaner but that was with no spark plugs and no pushrods installed.

you just gotta get a long bolt instead of the original bolt with the D shaped head on the upper right side.

I am even using this starter as I saw it in Jan`s kitchen build thread.It works soooo nice!
1000times better than the automatic one before. The sound that it makes when starting is even great and non comaparble.
Maybe straight cuts inside ;)

From what year-model Felicia is it? Or do you have a part number?

your right about the sound felix! we were like WTF when we cranked for oil pressure, haha.

i'm pretty sure you can find all the info you want on here, type "felicia" in the search box  ;)

Yep I didn't saw Jan's pic with part number just above  ::) ;D

Also I found more parts numbers that seem to match with the Pal-Magneton 443115141310  : http://www.oscaro.com/demarreur-delco-remy-drs3369-1085374-2-p

Could this be it ? number matches.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390173135566&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Check Jan's thread, this might be the china knock-off. :(

Thanks guys, I will go pick one up later today for my 2.5L type 4. I hope this will cure my starter issues, the original starter is just not up to the job.

I have emailed the seller asking who is the manufacturer, i will let you know what they said.

Hey Warp

How did it go? Did you find one that fit?

/Jakob

Have you checked the engagement of the teeth to the flywheel at all with this starter?

Cheers
Paul

Yes I found a cheap felicia starter but haven't tried it yes as I've been sorting out megasquirt related bugs on the type 4 instead. But the engine is running alright now so I think I will fit the Felicia starter tomorrow and see if it's as good as the IMI Hi-Torque starter.

I bought a Skoda Felicia starter (part nr 443115141310) from a local auto salvage yard. I installed it today and it works OK. Only thing is that it is quite noisy.

Had a reply from the seller this is a copy part so probably Chinese.

Thanks for confirming Mark ! Damn copycats.

I got a used skoda starter today.

The engagement of a type 1 starter is 33-45mm from the mounting flange (12mm deep pinion)
The engagement of the skoda felicia starter is 26-38mm from the mounting flange

So this starter is not ideal if you want the flywheel ring gear to last a long time as the teeth are only approx 5mm engaged

The flange unbolts from the skoda starter, I think with a small amount of machining it might be possible to increase the engagement

[attachment=1]
I installed the starter upside down as it seemed to be the easiest way but it fits the regular way as well.
It cranks my 2.5L type 4 with no problem.

Paul F is right the Felicia starter engagement is not that big and the starter is VERY tough on the flywheel teeth which is why I already ditched it.
I will be using a 911 starter instead (SR68X) which is a 1.5 kW starter.

How much engagement on the flywheel teeth did you get warp?

As the flywheel teeth are only 9mm wide, you could end up with even less than 5mm engagement

I use a 215mm wbx flywheel which for some reason has more narrow teeth than an regular type 4 flywheel. My guess is about 2mm engagement. It started to sound funny (maybe more scary then funny) after a couple of days and when I checked the teeth on my flywheel I could feel signifikante wear on the teeth already so I ditched the Skoda starter.