The Cal-look Lounge

Looks like the last topic I posted was a victim of the forum crash, so here we go again...


All this talk about 4" bore motors has got mine and a lot of other heads spinning, and I want some answers! ;D

Do you have to use an aluminium case? What modifications are needed?
Are they truely streetable/highway-able? Not just good for a weekend plaything! I'm talking much more than just around town...
What heads can be used? Hopefully something with more than 6 thick fins...
Can a normal fanshroud and cylinder tins be fitted? I hate those Porsche look-a-likes...
Where do you get pistons & cylinders? Are the pistons only available in one pin height? Slipper skirts? Cylinders in one length?

Who has a 4" bore motor out there? Please share your experiences!

Not if you know somone that can weld a stock case.


JPM' ms230 has 4" as a option...   9 machined (thin) fins... :)

i was told of a 4inchbore website but can't find it?

Thanks Alex

http://4inbore.com/

Cant wait for mine  ;D

The easiest way is just call CB and ask for a blank head stud case. They usually  have a bunch on stock.
It is clearanced for stroke, but has stock bore and no head stud holes.

-When you recieve it, just pull out the dip stick tube, weld some on #3 cylinder behind the dip stick.

-Next step is to fill the oil passage between the #3 and #4. Bore it smooth and make a rod in a lathe and fill the hole with it.
It needs some kind of fixation for the rod. Use your welder, loctite or your imagination, whatever works best for you... :)

-Next step is to bore the holes for the case savers and installl them. I used Würth Time sert.

-Next step is to bore the holes for the cylinders.

The case is done!

I have AA cylinders that works alright in an N/A config, but I wouldn't use them with a turbo.
I have custom CP pistons of my own design. It is the third set now and it gets better every time, even though they weren't bad the first time. My own design is a lot lighter than a 94 mm Mahle, but yet rated for 350 hp/9000 rpm.
Chevy etc pistons might work, but they aren't that good for a VW as they have the wrong pin size etc.
Ford pistons have the valve reliefs on the wrong place.
There is two options for heads as far as I know: JPM and modified Angle flow.
JPM needs no modification, but on the other hand it is more expensive.
The JPM head has more cooling fins if you want to run on the street.

It is possible to use a mag case, with steel plates etc, but it is a LOT of work. You can also modify a Water boxer  case, but it is a lot of work too.

Pitcures below:
Top: Welded case, machined flat
Second: Milling for case savers
Third: milling for cylinder holes. One to go!
Fourth: Done! 94 mm case to the left.

 

here is one of my six stud cases zach . i had a nice little parigrf about my experiance but got kicked off becase im a slow typer so i will try later after dinner.JD .

are they werthy of true street diving. yes sir. i will put my reputation on the line with out any doubts and say they are very very worthey. i would think that you and many others would already know this. they are worthey on even the crap gas you get at the pump. zach my original engine 3066cc i used the weaker case and crank (LOW DECK CASE AND 92 MM NON 411 MAIN CRANK) .after i toar the engine down for inspection i notice a hair line crack in it i wonder why  ::)i new it was weak but hey somebodys got to try it right. so then i put a 411 90mm. still using the weaker low deck case. did i ever put 5000 miles on it like you ask? more i would say . but since the engine was in the infant state i couldent keep my hands off the thing so i would tear it down from time to time to see how things  were wearing ( R D) and parts always looked great so it was back together. now that we have the better cases RASID DECK  now the true relibility begins (THICKER). i drove my car in 100+heat  in bumper to bumper traffic hiway freeway you name it. it was done .race and street worthy by far. i would not hesitate to even put another low deck 101 engine together for my self or a customer knowing what i have learend how to keep them alive .build one you wont be sorry that you did . UD .     

.

thanks for that Jhon boy.

steve dalton another guy that has the experience on the subject. he had a few speed bumps that he had to drive over but as far as i know his old blue is a relible STRONG  runner and is drivin often . and another big bore fanatic is the one and only don pauter he has many street big bore miles under his belt. truly respectilble. and we cant forget rockey jennings. so yes there are many. UD .

Yup, I had a few hoops I had to jump through, but only because I tried a funky crank setup that took a little different approach to figure out.  As for the 4" bore part of the equation, it's been nothing but smooth sailing.  Only an 86 stroke here, but loads of HP and TQ all down low on the tach.  I actually had a friend in a reputable car club drive my car a few weeks ago and when he got into his fantastic running 94mm car at the end of the night "It felt like it was broken."  I haven't put as many miles on the car as Jeff has, but I'm catching up quickly  ;)

To back up the legitimacy of Jeff's big block motors, I was driving next to him as he drove the car to Irwindale, and when he went on the 100+ degree 60+ mile Vegas drive, and the motor actually ran cooler than a few of the 90.5 and 94 bore cars that made the same drive- food for thought.

Just remember, it wasn't long ago that people were saying the same things about 94 bore...

What sort of cost is required to buy the basics; case, heads, barrel and pistons?

What length rod is needed?

Thinking about 82 x 103.

Does the crank need to be flanged?

lids. 82 crank just your reg por lenght or vw lenght 22 mm pin. no the crank does not need a flange unless you want to do it .steve and i have had great sucsess with reg dowel crank 11/32 dowel mate no wedge. drag race with slicks in 2000 lb bettels. UD . 

My next engine. But I got to wear out the set of heads UD made for me first.  ;D

--louis

Thanks Jeff, what about a rough idea on component costs.

Not long ago I purchased a set of vintage 100mm Empi Birals. They were originally designed for the 914/T IV Engine. I was contemplating building a type 1 engine with these, but I'm not sure if they will work because the cylinders are 3/8-1/2in ???  shorter
than a type 1 cylinder. I think the added deck to the Alum case could make it all work out, what do you guys think??

Sorry for the mild Hijack Zach :P

I was thinking the same thing. 94's came out in the late 70's I believe, but it wasn't until many years later where they finally got "street cred" :D Hopefully we can look back on 4" bore motors the same way someday :)

Easiest way out is tu use the waserboxer case with JPM heads no welding needed. has T4 registerbore/depth.
And is VW quality.

yes the wasser boxer case is vw quailty i agree with you there. but is limited on stroke yes it has trhe studs in the location already if you can find one that you can remove the old head studs with out breakedge WATER DAMEDGE then cutting off the water jacket milling down. then the crank and bearing combontion. when it all comes down to it its just as much work to convert if not more headake than the autolina. just my two bits .UD . 

here is a low deck that i finished today. its for sale or i will build it for my own personal use or will sell the engine when done complete or long block state. it is limited on comp i have run  as much as 10.2 comp with no problems.this one has the new gusset system on it for that extra muscle.makes a bitchen street case for the lower comp pump gas guy . UD . 

I wanna see some of you SoCal guys drive your 4" motors to Vegas, Phoenix, Sacto, ect....

What does it matter?  How many people actually drove their 94 bore motors to Vegas, Phoenix, Sacto, etc...?

I did Vegas four times and Sacto once with my old 94 bore motor, Phoenix never because I don't like Arizona.  Point is, it will come around and it probably won't be too far off- I guess 250hp on California pump gas at low rpm through IDA's driving non-stop for an hour and a half through 100+ degree heat and stop and go traffic isn't enough reason for people to start building... ???

i did two bigbore wasserboxer engines, one 96 bore one 101.6 bore. removing the headstuds can be a pain, just like jeff said. dont forget you have to bush the lifterbores for type 1 lifters (has hydraulic type4 stock) AND: you cant run a sump. it does have more oil capacity stock, but not enough i think
dont forget it has a factory sandseal, so not every pulley will fit
i did fir stock sheetmetal, but it has to be modified extensively, the case is much wider
oh yes: it has a stock oilfilter that cant be used with a merged header without mods, no just hooking up the full flow
 i just bought two pentroofcases, seems like less work
do i have to weld at the no 2 cylinder spigot? didnt have to on the wasser case. and is the oil routing roman talked about different than with the wasser case?

i think jeff already did vegas from orange county....then won real street.....then drove home......

nice pic karl ;D

Zach

Jeff drove his to vegas and back under the strict Real street rules with the rest of the guys,filling up with pump gas along with everyone else,running it hard at the track then driving home again,thats good enough for me,I have 2 pairs of angle flows sitting here waiting for Jeff to get some time to work on them :)

cheers richie,uk

I run a 86mm VW rod crank in my WBX-oxy case almost NO clearance needed. Only on the bumps under the studs.
Headstuds can be difficult, but I have not had any big problems, and its easier to remove when the waterjacket is removed.

Waterjackets is a Angle grinder job. and kind of fun!   :)
No need to mill it down, I leave a edge for strength.

The Crank and bearing combo is the benefit!  run the 76,4 crank with 4" and you have a 2,5L blast.
or use 1mm oversized +1mm trust bearings on the main and wbx on the others for new T-1 cranks.

The reason I like it, is that it is dooable for common people to convert these. No need for big machining equipment. and ok 2,1 wbx engines are kind of cheap. Then one can use the case and crank++.  For the money one save, buy some GOOD heads.

The oil capacity is like 4 liters, IIRC. what is a T1 with normal deep sump?

Its not trouble free, but not that hard to manage. Only machining I have needed is the honing of the lifter bores.

my 2 cents

Just to answer your question; 4,5 - 5,5 liters.

All right, now I feel like I'm in the dark ages with my 2110 :-(  This is great information.  Thanks Zach for starting this post and Jeff D. for taking the initiative to put it on the street and R & D it and put this out there.  Thanks for all who shared their experiences with doing this.  Too bad the economy isn't doing so well or I'd bet there would be many ready to try and do this, I know I would.  Maybe I'll take my motor apart (only 150 miles on it) sell the mag case, pistons and cyl's heads etc and go 4 inch.......This is cool stuff. Jeff R

For me, a true street car can go anywhere, anytime.


That's good stuff, right there :)

when can i get mine? ::)

I think you are right after me :P :o :D


cheers richie,uk

to late richie....i moved myself up the board...rockers in tomorrow...heads modified and bolt back on motor about one or two more weeks should be good to go....you back yet?

kettle will be on for you :D

cheers richie,uk

ive got the tetly you got the kettel.

I think type 4 cylinders belong onto a type 4 engine  ;) (less hassle, costs etc. in the long run for you)
-> you better sell those to me  :D

 :D  cheers richie,uk

I keep reading about the 4" motors. and i admire the effort to get a 4" bore in at T1 case. Jeff's 'street' 3ltr motor was awesome!, but isn't it just easier and may be cheeper to get a scat killer case, Autocraft or a Pauter case that already accommodates a 4"bore motor?


maybe I'm missing something, but the above case arnt that expensive are they? and if there made to do it out of the packet then i think i'd lean towards that  If you go down the Pauter route then you can get up to 3.5 ltrs.


just my thoughts.



Martin.

thanks richie...better make it ice cold though with this damn heat...and fires.....just need a earthquake now.. ;D

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=791017

hello martin. that would be to easy. this engine is closer to the type 1 platform wich i think anyone could have respect for. not that i dont have respect for the other aftermarket platforms. and you said somthing about 3.5l. im working on that slowley but surly. this is not the case im using just mock up junk block. just testing. it will become reality just takes time. UD .   

WOW, are they aircraft cylinders? ive seen them some place before. Like i said i Totally get what your doing.


Martin
 

Magirus-Deutz cylinders, I think.
Diesel truck.  looking good!

the goal is to get it out there and affordable and hopefully make it easy as possible for the average person to purchase 4inbore like it was a 94 bore.

The magazines need to do an article about this subject if the guys that are developing the parts / process / know how to do it are willing.  Maybe they have already but i don't remember seeing an article on this in any of the VW mags.  Then again, why should the guys doing all the R&D and hard work give their secrets away?  This is cool stuff to see someone moving forward with this.

Is it possible to use the GeneBerg equalizer pulley in a wasserboxer case whith a
typ1 crank?I assume it neeads some machine job.

/Fredrik

it is possible: http://www.marko.pictures.fi/kuvat/Kuvakansiot/Autot+VW/Oxy/Oxy+113.jpg

Have to machined oil thread off and put seal in case.

Nice build and pictures A-C!!

Just checked a wasserboxer-case today. Measured the holes in the case for the cylinders in a hurry to 100.17 mm.
When going to 101.6 cylinder bore, you have to make the holes bigger. What are the outside dia. on the cylinders from ex. AA or simulare?
Have some Magirus cylinders and they are 110mm outside. Want to keep as much material as possible in the case around the headstuds for strength, and the same for the cylinders.
Is it ok to leave the lower parts of the cylinderwalls 2 or 3 mm. thick?
That will give a total of 101.6 + 2+2=105.6mm. Machining the case 106mm.... hmmmmm?

This is a thread I will watch very closely.

Yes,very intresting thread,starts to regret that i bought expensive 94mm heads
for my race engine ::)

nice build A C...bet you cant wait to get it in the car

As for turning the cylinders down, in T1 world is common to turn 94mm cylinders to fit into the case opened for 90.5/92mm cylinders exactly for the same reason to keep more meat around head studs. I have these cylinders on my 2276 and they are paper thin where they enter the case.

On regular 94mm type 1 cylinders they are approx 1.5mm thick at the bottom where it slides into the case,but you can get away with thinner as they are machined down more to fit into a case bored for 90.5 cylinders,all it does is support the piston at bdc

cheers richie,uk

The AA Performance cylinders I used for Bang's oxyboxer drag race engine (101,6x86mm)
was turned down to 104,5 mm at the bottom end. So that's close to the same
wall thickness as Cima/Mahle 94 mm cyl set.  I choose not to open the case spigot
bore more because I felt the bore was close enough to the head stud threads.


/Rolf

Some pictures of my friend's wasserboxer block,with sump.........
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2652/3884451249_0750f8916b.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3524/3885246882_dfe728026e.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3471/3885244584_6d889c0189.jpg)

i bored the case to fit the AA barrels, but i dont think its too close, i have seen worse on a type 1 case bored for 94

http://www.marko.pictures.fi/kuvat/Kuvakansiot/Autot+VW/Oxy/Oxy+087.jpg

I have AA barrels too.

Isn't there 2 different H2o Cases? If so, is one better than the other?

This thread makes me regret I sold my DJ code wasserboxer case half a year ago. It was just lying around in the garage with the idea of using it one day for a LARGE engine. But alright, carry on ;-)

did somebody say light wight like balsa wood. oooh ahhhh. have to give them a try.will see what happens.UD .

Looks like you're building a five cylinder, Jeff. Cool!

Yes , the older ones - 85 have bearings like Typ1 except the thrust bearing (Type4 with 21mm ) .The new ones have smaller bearings .

Udo

Nice barrels Jeff. Are those from aluminium?

http://www.lnengineering.com/type1.html

Very cheap  ;D

Ouch   ;D
And than you still have no 4" bore ::)

What brand are you normally using barrels from? AA performance? I read sometimes people use barrels from Deutz, but what pistons do you use then?
I know that 4 inch is a usual size for old V8 engine's.

I have 86-> bearings are T-1 and WBX crank is 86/chevy, easiest mark is last bolt top of case before flywheel is M10 others are M8

there not LN nickes. are you kidding i cant aford that PRICEY stuff . but thoses aluim nickisel cly were in my price range CHEEEEAP i like it. and if i can get them to work that will be a good thing.if not back to the drawing board.
     ( 3.975 100.97mm ) 101 ::)    just a smidge shy of the big boy .  and yes my 108s are the deuts diesil clys again another set that im not out a hole lot of cash. yes i normally use the AAclys have had great succsess. UD .   

Thanks Jeff !

something for a new project Sander?? ;)

How do you tell without splitting the case?

Not yet Dirk, something for later, when I'm a big boy ;)
But I have a couple of years now a wasserboxer case wich I want convert to a oxyboxer.

early wbx case No. is 025 101 101

late wbx case No. is 025 101 101 B

its on both sides of the sump

early case has a smoother flash casting on the out side

later cases have alittle more clearence on the inside
there both good just depends on what crank and barring combo you want to use.

Who knows something about the "outlaws" head from DRD?
I was told they only took 101 mm bore....

as far as i know the differences between early (to 1986) and late wbx case is the main bearing arrangement (first main has sholuders on early case)
there 69 stroke and 76 stroke motors early and late, bore is always 94mm

So the early WBX case is the favorable canadate for a 4.0 bore motor?
When using the wbx setup what is the best crank to run? Wbx crank or a type 1?

i have used only late model cases, they work fine
the stock 76 crank is a strong, heavy piece with very thick cheeks and a type 4 flywheel arrangement (5 bolt), but it has no counterweights. in my opinion if you go to all the difficulties of modifying a wbx case, go for the biggest bore/stroke combo. a type 1 crank can be used with a combo of a 1mm oversized Type1 #1 bearing (with shoulders), by drilling a dowel hole, and the rest wbx main bearings (they are Type 1 ID), you also need a bigger rear main seal to get a match between case and type 1 crank, as well as a sandseal pulley as the wbx case has one from the factory.
as i said before: wbx cases are cheap to get, but after doing all the machinework, the pentroof case from CB is cheaper (i got one for sale)

I have used 2 welded 86 mm stroker WBX cranks in a 4" project and like them a lot. Had a crank/flywheel failure but neither the crank or flywheel can be blamed for the failure (DONT HURRY when assambling an engine :-[) No bearing issues when using WBX cranks and cases. I like the 5 flywheel bolts much better that the type 1 glad nut.  The cranks I have used both had 5 pins too and latter one of the cranks was also wegdemated to the flywheel.  Both Demello and DPR can make such crank.   The engine is in Big Bang Racing's 62 sedan and it been raced over 40 runs this year and only needed a valve adjustment once and a few carb sync. Had a blast at SCC and we did'nt touch a thing on the engine, just racing ;D ;D

I really think a 4" bore big cc engine is hard to beat and the machine work needed on a WBX case is is not that much. well I like doing machine work so making a WBX case into a aircooled 4" bore engine is pure fun to me.  If all the machine work have to be done in a machine shop the costs could be fairly high.  I spend a lot of time changing the oil system on the WBX case to get more flow and less pressure drop.  JPM heads rocks big time !! They where ready to bolt on, except a small issue with the push rod bores being too small. JPM was aware of the problem and offered to redo the holes for free.  Peter (the owner) felt the CB rods had too small rod bolts and I ordered a set of Pauter rods at Udo  Becker (Thanks a lot for your fast delivery, Udo)  and we all felt safe ;)




/Rolf

if I have to now build new engine my choice is 90mm Scat flange T1.

Has anyone used flange crank in wbx case? Either with T1 or all T4 mains.

so guys how about a proper sppec/parts list for a 4" bore BIG cc motor  ??? :)

More street than all out race?

Yepp for a BIG street motor  ;)  ;D

It sounds to me, to be some clearance prob.between rods and cam with a 90 stroke. But it has been done in a T-1 , so it's do'able....
I personally don't like long stoke/small rod journal, the crank gets weaker and weaker the longer the stroke/smaller the journals
Maybe the best crank out there is the VW made T-4, 1700-1800 crank.  66 stroke, 55mm journal and T-4 mains....... but then again you have to go T-4. But who wants that???  :-)
With 4" bore the engine will be "big CC"  even with a 82 stroke.....
It all depends of what you want.
I choose to go solid as possible before large as possible...
Just my thoughts.

yes please, please:-)

Also what are cooling and exhaust options?

I have a 90mm with 5,88" rods in my Oxy.
We will se if the crank cane handle the extra hp the HX50 turbo makes  ::).

Sweet.

Give it hell, I'm curious.

the 90 2in crank and the 5.880 is an exelent recipe. just as long as have the min of a 411 center or even better all 3 that crank is plenty strong what ever you want to throue at it in the power department.sure you can stay your 70S conservitive recipe thats fine. but there are some that arnt afraid of trying somthing differnt. an old saying and it goes like this . TRY IT YOUL LIKE IT . UD .   

theres another old saying i like to use...."Nothing worth doing is ever Easy!!"....thats why i wanna have a bash at an Oxy with my early dg motor! If i mill the jackets off, and leave the head stud spacing where it is, what are my options, or do i need to go for the 4" bore stud spacing? if i stick with the standard 69mm dg crank, and go 4", what size motor does that give me? just trying to weigh up my options before taking the plunge! :-\! obviously, for me, a tight budget is essential, but i am aware these motors can get pricey! give me some options you guys!

cheers
Lee ;D

what size motor does that give me?


2238 cc

Well, to my knowledge, it is the std. wasserboxer headstudspacing that is usually used on the 4" bore..
Try to find a 76 stroke crank. And you end up with 2464cc.

I've been talking to the guys at J&E for a new set of 4" bore pistons and they are quoting me under $400us for a set of 4 custom built

who have you been talking to? i tried to contact J&E because i want a set of custom 103mm pistons, but no go
are there other options? summit lists mahle and keith black custom pistons, anybody have experiences with these?

call venolia pistons 562-531-8463

Call SRP (714) 373-5530 talk to Paul at extension 224 they are JE

I lied it cost me about $450 today with tax for the set.

The cost is as follows -- Find a piston design profile that you want ($98 for my 4" small block chevys) then you can start making it into you want == want it 30 over $5 each piston -- want the dome smaller or the dish deeper $5 each etc etc until your done.

I ended up with an off the shelf piston in standard and I'll make my own changes to it if necessary -- -- alot of pistons come standard in 30 45 and 60 over sizes so you might not get hit for that charge.

The hardest part for me was determining what compression height I wanted.

Guys, any pics of your 4 inch bore engine builds? I´d love to see them!

Harold,what wrist pin diameter did you get?


cheers richie,uk

Standard Chevy .927"

I've got Chevy Journals on my Pauter crank -- So I'm using a off the shelf Chevy Corillo rod -- off the shelf 350 chevy piston

-- simplicity and keeps the costs way down

There's enough room with the bolts turned the other way 'round?

Ok,I figured they werent just going  to make them in VW pin[22mm,there metric cause its german ;) ] for that money,

 but thats not going to fit in a regular VW style case is it?

cheers richie,uk

well, that's I was trying to say -- they have no problem making those changes to the pistons -- -- just order them with the 22mm pin --  $5 per piston more -- They have a whole division that cataters to the ricers -- -- can't see any problems

And my 2 piece ARPM case is pretty close to being a regular case -- Now if I had one of those 3 piece cases that would be different


Call up Paul and ask him -- -- He seemed more than willing to do anything I wanted -- It was just I wanted them now so I was looking for something they had on the shelf that would work

the rods I've got -- -- the bolts don't face that way

Harold,if they will do the VW wrist pin size for an extra $5 each then they are a bargain :)

What rods do you have if the bolts are the same way as VW?

cheers richie,uk

These

Some day, some way ... hopefully sooner than I think!  ::)

what are you goona do with all that power there texas tom. at least sombody down south will be feeling the need for speed street texas styel.  ;). UD .

Jeff! Hope you're doin good!
What will I do?
Hopefully burn up some perfectly good tires, blow some minds & poop my pants! (Better get some diapers ...  :P)
All before the tranny goes! :o ;D ;D

Hey Tom I can Have Becky bring you some Adult Diapers from her Work LOL And as Far As Speed It will never be Driven  Tom Is A Collector he has more stuff then he can Count an doesn't get much use LMAO at Tom  ;D ;D ;D

Oh yeah!?
Hey Shoob, How's that Nova running? Drive the Vette lately???
Looks like we've got an old fashioned (cuz of Shoob's age) grudge match goin here! :o
WATCH OUT! The old guys are gettin goin!
We'll line up the wheel chairs on Sunday, Shoob. ;)
Hope to see ya there!

LOL Tom Nova? havent touched it in two years  Corvette? bought it New five years ago it has 1,497 miles on it LOL My Motto is Keep it Covered Out of Site Out Of Mind LMAO   Hey I am up for that Wheelchair Race we can both Rent them And I will Cheat and put someTriflon On the Wheel Bearings and Dust your Ass ;D ;D ;D

Don't wanna get off topic, so I'll bring my 4" pistons with me.

I wonder if steeper rod angles can be used in these motors due do greater clearance from the large bore?
A 383 c.i. chevy small block uses a 3.75" stroke (95.25 mm) and often run 5.700" rods ... hmmm
Lower rpms could allow it?

I know this is a bit out of my league at the moment but it sounds like has Fiat dude found and easier / cheaper way of doing this 4" bore thing.

Am i right or am i missing something.

Will these Chevy rods fit in a high roof aluminum case ???

 

Hello, this is my first post here! I have been watching this thread very carefully and had a few questions... It seems that you can use chevy pistons and rods to keep the costs down but the heads are quite pricey. What about a type 4 head? I know they make them in the right bore and there are exhaust systems for a type 4 in a beetle, is this a possible solution???

Also it seems that he stock 350 chevy rods are 5.7" would that be the correct length?

It goes back to compression height and pin placement in the piston -- The pin placement on my pistons is for a 6" 350 sbc

Fiatdude- I never thought about altering the pin height to compensate for a different length rod. Very interesting. What do you think about stock GM rods for a street motor? My thinking is that if they will handle the power and torque of a v8 say 400 or so they should be goodfor the beetle. Does this make sense? Am I crazy? Sorry for all of the questions about this, I work at an autoparts store an was staring at engine parts catalogs all night thinking of a way to make this more affordable. 

Thanks,
Mike.

A rod designed for a 400hp V8 is going to be struggling in a 250hp flat 4 :)  With good rods only costing $250/300 designed for a vw with the correct pin and bolt direction why bother,and no 4inch bore VW engine is going to be cheap

cheers richie,uk

type 4 heads cant be used due to the much bigger cylinder spacing. besides, they bend under load like a banana without extensive mods :P
i think the cheapest setup is: (besides the type 1 parts for the lower end and the intake/exhaust you need anyway)
hiroof nondrilled case
4" AA clylinders with wisecos (keona has them on the samba alltogether for under 800$)
CB CEs nondrilled (i dont know if you can get them CNC ported, i heard they are fixed to the CNC machine via the type 1 bolt pattern???)
using stock V8 pistons you always have the pin-problem, most of them are .927"
just my opinion

no 4inch bore VW engine is going to be cheap

cheers richie,uk
[/quote]

Exactly!
NO HiPo VW motor is cheap compared to a v8!
There's just more of them than us and ... if it were that easy, everybody would be doing it!
Unless you have access to all the equipment and the talent to use it, its gonna cost to have it done, plain and simple. Not to mention the time involved in working it into a drivable package once its done.
That's why we're not all driving 9 sec. street cars! :D
My hat's off to those who have it, did it, are doing it ..

Awe HELL, as long as you're having fun and its VW powered ... who CARES! ;D

Thanks for all of the replies!

Karl h- could you explain this piston pin problem? Is it just that the pins are different sizes? If that's the case couldn't they be bushed?

Again, sorry for allot the questions am I trying to learn and am very interested in this 4" bore and hipo vw motors in general. While I don't have the machines or the skills alot of my customers do and a few used to have vws and a few more have expressed and interest in helping me with different projects.

Thanks,
Mike.

i herar ya there tom. i drive 40 horses everyday im happy. if i had some power i would only turn into MR WEELER THE MAD MAN i get lots of tickects i couldent afford. one of these days it will happen again maybe. i would rather see other people have a good time . UD .   

A friend of mine just showed me a set of pistons where the wrist pin is set inside the oil ring -- talking about going to great lengths to get a long rod in the motor

I believe that was common practice for the 347 ford motors. When people first started stroking the 302 to 347 this was "normal' as was heavy oil consumption. A few companies have since fixed this ...

a V8 piston pin is .927 (23.5mm), even bigger than a porsche pin that is 23mm. what i found is that honing the rod bushing for 23, let alone 23.5mm isnt possible, its too thin. so you are stuck with having it rebushed. its just not a matter of boring out the little end and sticking a bushing in, you have to have a machine that can hone the litlle end parallel to the big end. rimco wont do it, FAT might. locally (here in vienna) i was quoted 80€ per rod :P
so it seems less trouble to go searching for a piston with a 22mm pin thats also lighter in the firstplace and not having to modify the rods alltogether

Karl h- now this is an area that I do not know much about but, coulnt you bush the piston? Would that make it easier then trying to hone the rods? I really have no clue if that's possible just an idea...

i dont know if you can bush a piston, after all its aluminum, the bronze bushing would spread it, i think
furthermore youd have to deal with the clips and the oiling hole that most V8 pistons have
for me the adventages of using a piston that has a 22mm pin just outweights the price it costs

So what´s the scoop on these heads from DRD?

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=828811

I think they are a pretty new porduct aren´t they?

Love to see the chambers ... but, also look as though they could have the same problem as others which is hard to keep cool (minimal fins with long exhaust port).
Then again, what do I know? :-\ Need to see more ...

dont know....someone needs to buy a set and try em out  ;D

I have ordered a 4" set.

good luck with that.....dont forget to report back with any updates...like video of the beast u put them on ;D

yea let see some more pictures of darrens new heads. come on darren dont be shy let see whats ya got. just currios about those hp figgers is that somthing thats already been fully tested and on a running engine? just asking. TALK TO US. are your guide centers relocated for the 4in version? a little show and tell is always nice ;D. UD .

Its done all of the time (and not just so a long rod can be fit). I think the piston skirts take less beating also due to the lower compression height. The piston is also smaller and lighter with no sacrifice of strength.
Here is a picture of one of the set I just had made for a 78 x 96.7 turbo motor.
(http://www.m-specmotorsports.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=2394&g2_serialNumber=2)

so what would be the "starter class" for the 4inch bore? I´m tempted to buld something BIG in case my newly built 2276 will run without problems.

My first thoughts are:

2789cc
Autolinea Alu case, modified for 4 inch spacing
AA cylinders
86 DPR crank, 411 all mains, chevy rod journal
5.6 H-beam rods
Web 86C cam, CB lifters, Pauter rockers
DRD heads bored for 4 inch bore, 44X38mm valves

51 IDAs

piston ideas?
cooling ideas?

venolia or j&e pistons, cooling 36hp fan shroud, i have one 48 pass and one 72 pass cooler (on my car) the 72 has thermostat fan,... and the valves to small, at least 48mm intake and a pair of angleflow heads designed for a 4inbore...... ;D

Since other companies heads are being posted on this thread, I thought it would be O.K to share our new head, also available in a 4" bore. 308cfm out of the box in a 94mm bore, 330cfm in a 96mm bore. Valve size is 50 x 38, CNC ported. I haven't flowed one yet in a 4" bore yet but plan to in a few weeks.

 :o

Pat,
so you are going to offer them in 4inch bore version? with a decent ex valve size ;)

cheers richie,uk

I could do a 50x40 in the 4" casting. On the next run of heads I am going to add more material around the outside of the intake ports for larger intake valves. Reason being is because I want the correct size port to go with the bigger throat. 

Do you think this head could be made streetable?

If you were to install squirters on the valves to help cool the head, yes. Using the head as it is I would have to say no.

Heart is getting pieced together 

right on harold looking good. go show us what 27yr old thecnoligy can do today (KICK ASS) it was way ahead of its time and in some ways still is.why is because its still has the main oem lines of the original littel brother. ;) keep up the good work . UD .   

;D

i wonder an im sure many others around this globe would like to know if there is TRUE DOCUMANTION on the( NEW HEADS) that susposodedly flow these susposide ##s. when i was flowing the STREET/DRAG angel flows i made it realy clear and went out of my way to show the ACTUAL FLOW SHEET AND THE FLOW BENCH WITH ##s.  to show people what they are capebel of with no welding on the HEAD  it self. maybe i should do a VIDIO on the flow bench then there will be no doupting and the world can see also that we have nothing to (HIDE).maybe OTHERS would do the same if they have nothing to (HIDE) .because when it all comes down to it the truth is always best when it comes to selling a product. :) UD .   

Are you calling me a liar? Within the next week, I will do a video of the head being flowed. You see Jeff, I have this nifty little computer made by Superflow called a FlowCom. I'm sure you have seen them. FlowComs don't lie. In fact, I will do 2 videos, one showing me doing a leakage check and the 2nd doing the flowing of the head. Maybe I should put in a giant intake valve and bore the head to 103mm. Isn't that what you had to do to get your heads to flow? For me, I wouldn't want any documentation on it, more like all I would want to do is forget about it ;D

was there any where in my sentence the word liar. you did tell the truth that the head without oil sqirters would not be streetible there you did right . but you know that any individual can put ##s up on the internet and magizen and say they are the best thing since slice bread. but when the customer gets the product and decides he,s going to flow test the heads and they arent what they supposedly says WELL. buy the way when you build a BIG BORE ENGINE this is the reason for doing it to put BIG VALVES in to take atvantage of this. why would i put a dinkey littel 50mm valve in head that has so much more in it. you dont see big block mopars runnig 50 mm you dont see big block chev running 50mm. i look forward in watching your vidios that will be a good thing make it real now.nice talkn with ya pat  :-*.  ;). UD .   

Some people put huge valves in heads when they can't get them to flow like other people can?  I'm sure you are aware that a port with a 50mm valve that flows what a 52 or 53mm valve flows is a more efficient port. What YOU should be scared of is when I do install larger valves in the head with a 4" bore. While I am doing the video's, would you like me to do a video on the air speed of this head? I would be interesting to see what kind of air speed those giant fifty something mm valves of yours have.

Hey Jeff, I am working on a set of 94mm bore heads for a customer. I plan on using this head for the video you want. Heads are off the shelf with 40cc combustion chambers. I will make a point of letting you see the CNC lines in the port. I will flow the head with one of Rocky Jennings manifolds modified to work with our ports, our's are still a few weeks out.  Would you like the video in stereo ;D Plan on seeing it later tomorrow evening. BTW, sometimes what you ask for can come back and bite you in the a$$.

ladies and gents ....the entertainment for tonight is....

all i am asking for is to bring a little realality to the table like i did thats all so the world can see. and if they flow what you say then MO POWER TO YA .then you can continue being the conceited man that you are no quis asked.   UD .

Conceeded? You don't know me very well Jeff. You questioned my integrity and I plan on showing you what my integrity is made of. I have no problem with you but you seem to always have something to say about me? I posted our head on this site and you questioned the advertised flow numbers. When ever someone ask anything about our heads, you throw a little slam in about us. Please try not to sound so innocent :'(

if you dont remember it was a couple of weeks ago on cal look i actualy complemented your heads and ended with a good luck. not once ever did you swalow your pride and complement the angle flow. not that i have seen any way. just rember this were your comp E ORIGINAL ideas came from and please dont forget it because it seems that alot of people do. any way i will say again good luck on your new heads. UD . 

I like the angle flow head, the superflow and the comp eliminator. About the only thing a comp eliminator and a angle flow have in common is a straight intake port. I do not see anyone complimenting our street eliminator that looks alot like another companies head on the market, in fact it is our original tooling. I have a head at the shop that you should see Jeff. The head is a stock casting that has had a steel tube installed at an angle into the exhaust side of the head. Can you believe CB Performance made this head over 30 years ago? I wonder were the angle flow got it's idea from?

i think the original design of the street elim came from the mid 80s JC HEAD and then everybody jumped on the bandwagen from there. ive ported street eliminators for people and thougt they were great for hot street or racing purps. as far as the angel flow design i aunistly think alot of people had the idea but only dean and ken in the begining made it a true realality show me one head thats been around for 27 yrs that remotly looks like it THERE ISENT.and still making major HP  to this day. UD .

Interesting to read about the history and todays version of your heads, but lets keep it nice and on topic please.
Since you guys are doing this as a business I think its only fair, and interesting for most of us here to see any flow numbers :-)

I think you are mistaken. The JC head came after the street eliminator head. I believe the first street eliminator was made in 1982.

I remember Fred Simpson schooling me back when he did a set of Super HOs for my 'super street' '67 more than several years ago ... it's not the top flow number, but what does it make @ .400" and under? ... Better yet, .300" and under? The valve spends a whole lot more time at that opening than at full lift.

Please don't jump my sheet, I'm no head porter , just a simple man with big ideas from the biggest state (Alaska doesn't count ... half of it's ICE! ;D).

I know what yer thinkin' ... big mouth too ...  :-*

Mr. Texas Tom.....now we have a problem...i was born in Kodiak, Alaska......the BIGGEST state!  >:(





kust kiddin ;D ....about the problem that is ;D

Appreciate the salutation there Sir Tim!

Everybody's got problems.
Biggest? I guess we'lll find out for sure after the next pole shift ... ! ;)

The other problem, from my perspective, is we've got ourselves a fruit problem ... street head versus race.
Pick one via your application, I guess.

anyone using these parts these parts from DRD

http://www.drdracingheads.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=92

..

nice case...i wonder how soon i can get one of those? have some things i could put in and around it laying around

If, indeed, Darren did purchase the 'operation' & tooling for these cases, I wonder if the 'waiting list' was thrown in on the deal ... guess not?
It'd be cool to see some pics of one of these after being finish-machined to know or at least have an idea of what you may receive.
I'd be a bit skeptical to be the mule.

Let's see SOME MORE PICS! :o

tick tock

 ??? ::) :-X

Hey guess what guys - I have been playin with a 4" bore today  :o
 
(ok there were 8 of them  ;))

Sorry, but unless it was a dual engined, horizontally opposed VeeWee ...  ::)

Saw this on Samba, pretty cheap. Didnt know guys were doing these 4in Bores (http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=889213) out of Mag cases.

I got to fondle a 5+" Bore x 5.5" stroke engine ===== 924 ci

Boy it was pretty -- -- $75K worth of pretty

I couldn't afford the carbs on it

Here in Sweden 4"+ magcases have been done for a long time, the engine builders use steel plates to do this.

Yup, 4 inch bore motors don't work on the street and I have the proof- I drove around the Fullerton/Orange area for over an hour this weekend in stop and go traffic and didn't see one of them out there...

Except me and my 170"s of naturally aspirated A/F GRUNT bouncing off the walls throughout the DKP Christmas cruise.  Car ran flawless, oil temp didn't go over 180* the entire trip- just me, some cubic inches, and a pair of IDA's sippin' on 91 unleaded rolling around the streets of socal with a sea of vw's.

Can't wait until next year!   ;D

hey steve do you think you could fry me up some bacon an eggs with those EXTREM  OIL TEMPS your runnin there im feelin HUNGY oh thats right i forgot i like my FARM PRODUCTS WELL DONE will leave that up to some one else ;). 8)  if you dont watch it your gonna break the heat thermom with  those BLISTERINNNNG temps :P :P. ;) UD .

Steve, are your IDA's just 48mm? or bored?
What times did it run on the 1/4?
Sounds like you've got a real sweet combo there.
Thanks.
David

Video?

Yepp!
I saw a Rallycross engine with Angle port heads just when they were new (mid eighties?) on mag case with steel sides and 103 mm cylinders. Pretty nice engine with oval exhaust pipes in the bends to keep gas flow at same throughout ....some theory I thought he had picked up from F1 but not so. Never saw that again but it did trigger my mind. Was a hell of a work to do. You cant buy those bends in the market.

Jeff, I'm all out of bacon- you know food doesn't last long around this place  ;D

David, carbs are just bored out 48's to 51's, no fancy boosters, profiling, or stacks- too rich for my blood.  Haven't had it down the 1/4 mile yet under power, critters in the carburetors shut down #4, but with four passes on the car it's gone 7.80 @ just under 90mph in the 1/8th @ 1950lbs w/ me in the car on D.O.T.'s- no jetting, timing, or tire psi changes.

Tim, what kind of video do you want?  I saw one the other day with a chain smoking panda, that was pretty cool....?

im still waitng on the video that is going to bite Jeff in the ASS.....tick tock...thats what video...but the panda thing sounds kinda cool ;D

Sorry for the late video. I have been pretty busy shipping heads ;D Also, I thought about being nice and leaving this all alone but since you two asked for it , here ya go. Some fine Farm raised heads for you Jeff. BTW, This head is 94mm bore, flycut .150  As you can see in the video, the test pressure on the gauge is only at 24.75 inches, flowcom is reading 25" We are waiting for a calibration kit to arrive from Superflow to get the motor controller back up to 25" Being like it is at 24.75, we are short 2-3 cfm on the flowcom from what the head really flows. BTW, Jeff and 58vw, this head is at 103.39 cfm per sq.inch of valve surface flowing through the manifold. Pretty efficient compared to your work. Have a nice day boy's.

(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s303/lawlessjr/th_IMG_0054.jpg) (http://s155.photobucket.com/albums/s303/lawlessjr/?action=view&current=IMG_0054.flv)

so thats cool i kinda wish you could have showed the other side of the head were the spark plug goes IF THERE WAS ONE THERE and also showing the susposed off the shelf lips in the ports. not to detailed like mine but hey yea cant have everything with farm products right. thanks for the not to detaield entertaiment thats cool not to shabby if its actualy athentic.thanks again. ;).UD . 

I knew you would have a nice positive response. Would you like another video with me installing the manifold so you can see the port and then flowing it? If I were you, I would let it go Jeff. Here is a pic of the head still on the flow bench. I pulled the manifold off so you can see the cnc lines.

thanks for sharing :)

Sorry for the silly post if indeed it is one, do we have a battle of two different heads here...fair enough they both make massive numbers but one is a street/strip head and the other purely a strip head so how can can be compared?

Surely to be fair it they would have to have the same purpose? Other wise i will compare my socks to my gloves  :P

Rob

Awesome heads Pat!!  8) Really great numbers.

Thanks for posting Pat, just out of curiosity; it would be interesting to see what difference it would make if you build a "spoiler" in front and under valve guides. Instead of building turbulence and have a negative effect on the flow I believe the "spoilers" can improve the flow # and also improve the support of the seat. Enclosed is a picture of Comp Eliminator intakes where you can see this. It flows 236 cfm in 25" water (with cylinder and manifold) which is about how much it is possible to make a Comp Eliminator head flow, but thats a different discussion.

Is there any other port designs available for these heads, or is this the only design you made for them, so far?
Did you design this port so that even more work can be done for 'ultimate' flow?
What is the minimum size engine (& rpm) you would recommend they be used with ... ultimate combo?

looks like 350hp easy

Any recent developments into the future of 4 inch bore engines for the near future?
... I'm talking about something I can use and DRIVE ...
Is this a fad or will it be here to stay?

That's the reason for the question ... the more that are out on the street, blowing the doors off whatever doesn't matter, the longer they will last and become the new standard for VW air-cooloed performance!

I remember back when the iconic "How to HotRod a VW engine" cam e out ... seeing the Iguana's engine with those 'ridiculous' 94mm pistons and cylinders ... that'll never happen!

The Iguana had 95's!!

But I agree, I hope 4" motors evolve into the new standard. IMO, we just need some new heads on the market that have some real, street worthy cooling fins. Type 4 intake flange and angled exhaust ports wouldn't hurt, either ;)

like these?????
[attachment=1]

I think I see some parts on the horizon that may fill all those bills ...

So what you want is a MS230 4" with angled exhausts...  :)

Maybe. Pictures?

You can built a Type 4 engine , so you can run 103 on the street with original heads and good cooling  :D

Udo

Blech!!

That raises a good question. Type 4 engines are supposed to be heavy, but how much would an Alu-cased, 4" bore T1 motor actually weigh? ???

Or watercooled TIV with 103/105 bore?
Sorry guys, I am just playing a little bit. It is not a serious suggestion but more pickled input on some nice heads that I got in a car/engine I bought in 1985.
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/ldstabildenpmonstret.jpg)
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/11.jpg)

The angled ports does not exist... but you could do it like the good old boys with the exhaust sticking into the head at an angle...  ;)

Type 4 case 15 kg . Alucase with raised roof and deck 16 kg  Waterboxer case with water jakets cut off 16 kg . But the strongest is the waterboxer in my opinion

Udo

another one down the BURNT RUBBER HIWAY.  on to the next two. UD .

..

do you always weld up the passages for the stock cooler?
because the 4"bore cuts into the galley?
i would like to keep the stock cooler (additional to one mounted into the full flow system)

yes,it has a rod inserted into the oil galley as you cut into it so you cant use the stock cooler at all

cheers richie,uk

great pics.. 

That's very nice looking work Jeff.

Udo: Do you regularly build big bore oxyboxers ?

Not regulary . It is very expensive . But the case is strong and has correct machine work from VW factory supplier .
I have two 82x96 engine on the circuit track with 230 hp. It works for a long time now , just like Type 4 engines with bigger cc. Another is an 82x97 engine on the strip with 250 hp . You do not need any freshing up like Type1 case engines . Next is a turbo engine...

Udo

thanks for the complment there pat. i have to thank jack for doing the center main thrust for me deffenetly a  8) set up. UD .

Funny, I was just scrolling down the row of pictures and thinking exactly the same thing!

Very nice!

is it possible to insert an aluminum pipe to keep the stock cooler?
all my big cc engines were waterboxerbased, but now i have one of these cases too
seems like the case in the pic has the center thrust conversion too. is it a good idea for a street engine?

Jeff

how much $ are one of those cases machined and ready to go

[/quote]
is it possible to insert an aluminum pipe to keep the stock cooler?
all my big cc engines were waterboxerbased, but now i have one of these cases too
seems like the case in the pic has the center thrust conversion too. is it a good idea for a street engine?
[/quote]

that´s an interesting idea - a kind of internal bypass made of 10 mm ID tubing so one can keep the stock oil cooler. Is this even possible? 

How about putting the cooler in the stock location and plumb it externally like a normal full flow cooler... cheaper?

My thoughts are that by removing the stock cooler you get more air to the heads, and both sides see the same volume of air with no interuption,with the added mess of fittings and oil lines it would make it even less efficient surely?

cheers richie,uk

some of the fin's inside the housing were designed to work together with the oilcooler, but i didn't see any hard reports that show's this myth busted ;)

I wouldnt think it practical,the oil galley isnt very big and when you sut the case after for the cylinder it cuts quite deep into the rod thats inserted into the oil galley

cheers richie,uk

 :)  Depends on which style & brand shroud you are using too ;) 

My preference is a Scat 36hp style with no doghouse but takes late wide fan

cheers richie,uk

i agree with richey get rid of the stock cooler. but there are other purist that would tend to disagree thats fine. we have had great sucsess doing it are way. im not saying a stock cooler couldent be mounted in the stock location. anything can  be achieved by using your nooddels. i gusse what ever tickels your fancy. ;) UD .

big improvement indeed is the cooler behind the fanhousing (doghouse) rather then IN the fanhousing as old(er) setup's. But there is only one way to know > test it ;)

That's what I thought to... I use a stock 30 horse housing with the biggest fan.

are we talking street or strip?

Fanshroud= street :)

cheers richie,uk

Not true.  ;);D

fanshrowd fanbelt and cubic INCHES and a taste of fugly = SOME embarisment to SOME others R/S(VERY TRUE). UD.

i see that you still have the valejo R express  ;) a bit off topic  ::)
(http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9948.0;attach=38996;image)

Jeff What type Rods you use?

I am starting with my Oqy Engine,I will use Wbx Crank
I thinking use Pauter Rods with Porsche Jornals
Case is Wbx and i have 101,6cylinders
Cylinders Head?

Mags

wow speedwell...sharp eyes you have there

hi mags. these are the rods that were in my original 3066 engine 5.880 eagels. i think there a great rod. i never had a problem. don makes some bitchen rods also i wouldent hessitate to get a set. UD .  

Pauter has new lighter rods (530 gramm) . But how would you cut a VW journal to Porsche ? Porsche is smaller !!

Udo

:D :D.... ;)

is it possible to use a 5.7 rod with a 90mm crank or do i have to get 5.88s?

It's possible, but you're going to have to keep a close eye on piston to crank clearances and where they are in the cylinders at BDC.
Having said that, the rod/stroke ratio is getting down there ... under 1.61 : 1.
However, and if the comparison can be made, these ratios and even lower are used in V8 engines all day long. For instance, a stock Chevrolet 350 has a rod/stroke ratio of just under 1.64 and a typical 383 is down to 1.52 ... that's low!

What would you be if you didn't even try ... You have to try.

this is how much rist pin was puling out at bdc of a 90 crank with a 5.7 tall deck case the tails on these barrels were alot shorter than our barrels im sure with the correct barrel length you can have full coveredge of the rist pin at bdc thats what i stride for any who. 90 with 5.7 heck yea.  a freind of mine used to run that recipe all the time and loved it.  UD .

lookin good

What happened to 4inbore.com ???

dispute with host....will be back soon ;D

Don't look back ...  ;)

hopefuly we can have some new pictures and vidios of the 4in products IN ACTION to keep the intrest ALIVE and breathing HEALTHY!!.  ;).  UD .

website back....now...need some orders....4" cases flyin out the door now... ;D

some six stud 4in A FLOW ACTION for your VIEWING PLEASURE ive been working on for someone .still need to spot face for washer UD .

Very very nice!

What case is this ?

Udo

looks like the CB bubbletop
i would be interrested how you plug the oil line to the top. just insert a rod and weld it on top, then bore te case for the cylinders? how do you keep it from leasking oil in the cylinderbore?

Looks like such a strange beast.....pure porn for my eyes on this boring friday at work :)

Rob

slowly --- very slowly

If ugly = fast -- this thing will be super-sonic

Just a thought from a twisted mind......Anyone ever adapted a Lycoming/Continental cyl to a VW type motor?  Granted you'd go lathe crazy,
but if you started with a inexpensive non air worthy high quality cylinder assembly.....just a thought.




P.S. The term 'cylinder head' was been omitted intentionally.  ;)

Sorry - flashing on that old Bill Cosby routine where he put a Cessena motor in his car

Now you've got me laughing, thinking about the 'smoke, fire and Jello' routine (chicken heart).

then we could call it the 5+INCH BORE THREAD  8). at least we know that head fart would be a thing of the past . UD  .

Veuilez pardonner l'inattention seulement que les cylindres Continentaux appliquent...les engines avec des alesages de 103 mm sont.

A-65
C-85
C-90
0-280
C-125
C-145
0-200
0-300

Any more movement on the 4" bore front :)

Who's gonna have the first car in DKP with a 4" motor?? ;)

I'll decipher this,  These are Continental engines with 4 inch cylinders.     Aircraft quality cylinders!!!

well i have startet to collect parts for a 2157cc oxy engine..

costum made wbx crankj 66mm stroke
4" jp motorsport heads will be machined and portet with ti valves.
6,2" pauter alu rods
102mm cp pistons with gasport
hommade 102mm alu cylinder netril coatet
raptor cam with max hp at 8800 rpm.
full efi maby with jp F1 trottle body

it will be a street engine for my 1302 sleeper

have the heads now and will start on machinwork the case.


more to come..

input are welcome

Why have such a high rod ratio?

There is one in Poland:P We're rebuilding it right now, here is how it looked before
(http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/8913/p1090407medium.jpg)

Nice rod:
(http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/7489/p1090448medium.jpg)

Why have such a high rod ratio?

if you see on the modern motor bike engine they have small stroke, big bore and long rods..
think maby to slow the piston down so it can suck more air/fuel in..

Hi Jago,
This is Fredrik and I think I know this car. Is it the same Chris has or had some involvement in when I was in Poland some years ago?
Looks good in any case and wishing you good luck!

Hello Fredrik!
Yes, you're right, that's bugster that belongs to Chris, I'm only helping him to get it running again after all those years. It's scary fast. And we're also doing a lot of other vw stuff so it's getting beter here.
BTW that guy with the head almost in your car - that's me. Damm that was a long time ago. (This is the photo from your topic on shoptalk)
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/PolishVWmeeting.jpg).

just read through this and its great reading!

whats the current word on it all?
i've seen some use of the duetz (sp) tractor cylinders but they seem alot of work?

any reason people arent drysumping there oxy's?

cheers

that would be hard...to shoe horn a 4" motor in the stock engine bay...not happening...it would take away the true cal look...just my opinion..

Hi Tim
You can get a 94mm bore comp elim headed engine in with out messing the engine bay up so no reason you can get a 4inch modified comp headed engine or a jpm headed engine in there,just not going to happen with angleflows for a variety of reasons

cheers richie

Nice topic :D

Hey Richie...hadnt thought of that..your right...and yes..no way with the AF ...so no excuses now...maybe somebody will? how you guys doing?

I think Kalle had angles in his NA engine?

Engine width is dependent on stroke not bore -- to narrow up my 2919 I moved up the wrist pin location into the oil rings and still I'm at 34 inches (with a 90mm stroke) and the stock engine compartment of my ghia is only 28"

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss306/Fiatdude/photobucket-7277-1339028168504.jpg)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss306/Fiatdude/photobucket-37039-1339042001617.jpg)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss306/Fiatdude/photobucket-31447-1339728430549.jpg)

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss306/Fiatdude/photobucket-12639-1341366259246.jpg)

here some for ya

for me?

what barrels are they fiatdude?

sure!! i take paypal!! lol

Those are the old ARPM Siamese barrels ---- Bugpak has the castings and several examples setting on the shelves

That is correct. Very high compression in combination with special JE pistons made the engine extremely narrow even with 5.7" rods. I used a 2"  stepped custom exhaust based on a Berg system as well. It fitted without cutting in my old 65. Very fun engine, especially between 5000 and 10000 rpms  :)

Have a nice Xmas evening.

-BB-

Hi,

reading all your experiences about those 4" engines I decided to build such an engine sometime as well so I bought an Limbach (aircraft) oxyboxer case some time ago. Nothing happened for a long time but recently I started collecting parts for that engine and started with modifying the crankcase. The plan is to do as much of the machine work by myself as I recently bought a milling machine and a lathe and want to learn machining engine parts.
Two weeks ago I started to clean the crankcase, remove the studs, drill and tap the oil galleries and bore the case for 4" AA cylinders.
I machined the case to 104.6/105.1mm and turned the cylinders down to 105.0mm at the case side.
At the moment I do not have all necessary parts to trial assemble the engine, yet but as soon as everything is here I will know how much to shorten the cylinders and will finish them.

As some of you asked for different engine combos, here is mine:

- late oxyboxer case
- DPR 86mm WBX crank
- 228mm flywheel
- 4" bore ;) using AA cylinders and 4" Keith Black Icon flat top pistons (1.09" compression height, lateral gas ports, 0.927 pin)
- rebushed CB H-beam rods, 5.6" length
- Thorsten Pieper tool steel lifters, 56gr. in modified aluminium bushings
- dual tapered aluminium pushrods
- custom grind camshaft with Magnum straight cut gears
- Thorsten Pieper CNC cylinder heads with lots of cooling fins
- stainless steel inlet valve 49-50mm (not quite sure, yet)
- exhaust valve 39.5mm, natrium (translation?) filled
- Crower valve springs/titanium retainers
- 50.5mm IDAs at first, fuel injection later
- header size probably 1 7/8", but that´s not defined, yet
- dry sump

That engine will hopefully be very streetable with lots of torque as i´m sick of trailering my car to some quartermile races 2 or 3 times a year. Let´s see if I will achive my goal... 8)

Attached some pics of the parts and machine work so far. The pics don´t show my own heads but some with 46/39.5mm valves.
[attachment=1]
[attachment=2]
[attachment=3]
[attachment=4]

Tobi

More pics...

Tobi

[attachment=1]
[attachment=2]
[attachment=3]
[attachment=4]

More pics. ;)

Tobi

[attachment=1]
[attachment=2]
[attachment=3]

Hi

Just found some pix from my version of a 4 inch street engine

[attachment=1]
Engine in the car

[attachment=2]
completed engine

[attachment=3]
Line bore after welding

[attachment=4]
cylinder instalation


Keep on 4 inching

MeXX

Some further pix

[attachment=4]
Inside the engine


[attachment=2]
OKRASA made in Germany


[attachment=3]
Crank modification

[attachment=1]
Roller cam cleared for rods

MeXX

[attachment=1]
Oil squirters

[attachment=2]
EFI meets NOS

[attachment=3]
Modified competition eliminators

[attachment=4]
Dry sump pump


MeXX

nice stuff guys..

Looks like those are 100mm porsche cilinders.
Are they
Very nice engine

Regards Edgar

THX Edgar

The cylinders are OEM Porsche 993 GT3
the pistons are OEM Porsche 993 GT2 (Bi turbo)
The crank has 82,6mm stroke resulting in a displacement from 2595 ccm.

MeXX

Hi to all 4 inchers

[attachment=1]
Autolinea case prepaired for 4 inch & 6 studs

[attachment=2]
Autolinea case prepaired for 4 inch & 6 studs

[attachment=3]
Autolinea case prepaired for 4 inch & 6 studs

[attachment=4]
Autolinea case prepaired for 4 inch & 6 studs

MeXX

Very nice to see a good radii in the Autolinea case conversion.
Also very good idea with the roller conversion, and how you retained the roll pin that prevents the lifter from turning.
I also like the large radii in the inlet ports of the comp eliminators.
Thank you for sharing your work!

Hi

My kind of a 4 inch race engine

[attachment=1]

[attachment=2]

[attachment=3]

[attachment=4]

MeXX

Hi

If you like my competition eliminators you will defenitely like my Autocraft 910.
BTY big THX to Mike from Autocraft.

[attachment=1]
[attachment=2]
[attachment=3]


MeXX

Thank you for sharing Tobi.

Have you done some calculations with regards to HP or have you bought and collected parts that you hope and think will work together and keep your fingers crossed that you will reach a certain goal? Is anyone for example using EA when building their 4" monsters?

Best rgs
BB

Ok cool, they are not cheap these days.

Regards Edgar

Hi mexx,

thats some very nice parts you have there,and the machine work looks real good,are you doing all your own machining? and is the head work all done by you?[porting etc? ] are those autocraft heads the same casting as CBs strip dominator?

cheers richie

Hi Kalle,

no certain hp goals to achieve. I hope to be able to run mid 12s and still have a very streetable engine.
That combination of parts will be trial and error.;-)

Tobi

Some very cool engines  ;D

Hi Richie

THX for the more than kind words. I'm doing everything myself from concept to reality. I also do all the machining myself.
The heads were bare castings from Autocraft an were handported by me. Yes it took some time.
It is basically the same casting as CB strip dominator


MeXX

Hi

Some pix of my kind of valvetrain:

[attachment=1]
check out the straight push rods

[attachment=2]
left side

[attachment=3]
right side

MeXX

Very nice Mexx. I'd like to see your rocker set up.

Hi Shag

The rocker are Jesel one of J2K MoHawk 1.6 ratio
with home made individual stands made from 4340 CrMo.

MeXX

Hi Tobi

I see that your things are coming together. ;D ;D
Are you happy with the KB pistons you got from Summit.
Post some pix .
I would be interested how you made your dry sump set up ??
what size are scavenge and pressure pump
how is the routing ?
mine is:

Stock pickup tube -  scavenge pump - oil filter - thermostat - oil cooler - dry sump tank - pressure pump - oil gallery


MeXX

Waouw...Amazing job MeXX... :o
I'm a huge FAN of your job and project !!!

THX a lot

MeXX

Hi

Just started to built another 4 inch mill

[attachment=1]
[attachment=2]
[attachment=3]
[attachment=4]

MeXX

Hi MeXX,

I could continue because of your parts, so thanks alot for your help!
The pistons are still in the USA at a friend of Mine who will bring them to Germany in his luggage when he will be on a business trip by the end of january. I will send some pics as soon as I have them here.
The TP dry sump pump usually has 26mm pressure and 38mm scavange gears but mine will be modified for 30mm pressure gears because I plan to install oil squirters as well and I'm afraid that the 26mm gears wouldn't be enough.
My dry sump system will be plumbed the same as yours but I will try to use the stock oil filter location with a short filter....maybe that will clear the header?!

BTW: your (machine) work is great and really very inspiring to me! It seems that you have a lot of experience in building 4" engines. Which engine case (WBX or Autolinea) do you prefer and why?

Tobi

some more pix

[attachment=1]

[attachment=2]

[attachment=3]


MeXX

Hi Tobi

Your dry sump pump gears will be perfect it's just the same I ended up with my 3rd pump:
1. CB  26mm 21mm too small at all.
2. Home built 32mm 26mm to small for squirters
3. Home built 38mm 30mm ok for squirters but I 32mm would even be better as alot of the engine cooling will be done
    by the oil and the oil cooler.

For street use be sure to have a real big oil cooler with a sufficient duct, U will see that U need it.
Last but not least your dry sump tank should contain at minimum 5l oil.(6-7 is better).

In my opinion the WBX case in much better but a lot more work to do and because of the lack of the possibility to use an oil sump u have to run dry sump.

So WBX is the technical better way to go 4 inch
but Autolinea ist the easier and more econony way.

So long  MeXX

You guys have some talent    ;D love it

I've wondered about my drysump pump and squirters but seeing this I'm happy, mine is the bugpack with 60mm suction and 30mm pressure.

What's the merits of using a 1mm hole drilled vs porsche items?

All the best

Andy

Dear Andy

I prefer the porsche ones because they have a built in valve that opens at 3 bar pressure to help you to have a higher oil pressure at low RPM (below 3 bar).

MeXX

I am interested in how you have angled the pivot points on the right side.
How did you match the sweep to the valve angle once the pedistals are angled?
Are your custom made 4340 pedistals on an angle at the base too?

So nice to see how others approach things with a fresh viewpoint! Nice work!

I was thinking about these (#44-970):

http://www.bingpower.de/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/oesd_vergleichstabelle.pdf

The valve opens/closes at 2.0 bar oilpressure.

Tobi

That is great work MeXX!  I'm working on my Autocraft heads now and was looking to improve the rocker design. Did you weld up all the original rocker stud holes?

Dear Dave

Year it's really great to have the possibility to share our ideas and the way to go a very short time very fast. (sounds insane  ???).

As I'm not 100% sure what you wanted to ask I try to answer what I think you interested in, but feel free to ask again.

The left side is the easier part: As I realized that the pushrods are angled in one side and the rockers angled back again I
was thinking of making the pushrods straight, which makes really sens in my mind. To keep it easier I ended up with straight rockers (in line) and nearly straight pushrods (distance Ex-Ex valve is slightly bigger than the lifters).

The right side was a little more tricky: First mock up was very rudimentary, I just took some welding rods bent them 90° and tried to connect the valve tips with the lifters trying to keep them ASAP (as straight as possible  ;D). As there were no pushrod holes in the heads at this time the welding rods looked more than a ? first. As I realized that there is a way there has to be a hole (first a small one) now the first welding rod (which was still waiting for action) was used. Than I did a lot of measuring calculating and some drawings and ended like it is now: The 4 rockers have 4 different angles, but the pushrods are ASAP.

The petestal stands are perpendicular but the casted base and the threats are angled 9° like the valves so if I shim the height the contact point doesn't move (except of the geometric change).

Does this answer your Q

MeXX


 

Hi Tobi

The list is really great  ;D
Is there a possibility to buy them from Bing ?

That's what I used till now

[attachment=1]

[attachment=2]

MeXX

Dear shag

Thanx to Mike from Autocraft I got my heads wo stud holes and wo pushrod holes.
There was a little bit welding required on the right side head because of the angled rockers as
there was to less material for the stud holes.

MeXX

Thank you MeXX, the above statement was what I was asking , thank you.

The Component Development Brand heads also straighten the pushrods,
but use an offset rocker on the RHS. (see my picture below)
Once you get the rocker shaft square with the 9 degree valve stem, like you have done, you can use the nice straight rocker arm.
Thank you for the explanation.
Dave.

(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n216/dangerous_05/myrockers2.jpg)

PS, the rockers above are my own make, but the heads are the Component Develpment castings.(4.03" bore)

PS, my rockers are Jesel MoHawk,CD heads are better because there is more room 1st Ex rocker mine are (4.04" bore)  ;D

BTW my new design rockers are coming up soon ......

was inspired by:
[attachment=1]
[attachment=2]

MeXX

Thanks MeXX!
So you 1st welded the rocker stand area to fill in the two holes and the offset areas then machined the whole boss at 9* and drilled and tapped your stud holes also at 9*?
The 3-4 intake and exhaust rockers all have different angles from the valve centerline?
Btw the Jessel pro steel rockers are the best, no fatigue life problems.

Dear Shag

I got my heads without any stud holes. Yes it was first welded and than machined to the 9° valve angle as this is the only possibility to angle the rockers for the 1-2 side. All threats are also 9° this makes it possible to shim it to the right geometry, necessary when for examble the valve or spring length is changed. I prefere stands in the right height without shims.

MeXX

Hi

Todays special :

How to plug 4 inch

The Piston

[attachment=1]

MeXX

First Piston

Porsche 993 GT2 Biturbo:

Hi quality graphal coated Piston for nikasil cylinders diameter 100mm best for street limited to horsepower of about 400 HP.
23mm wrist pin requires repushing the rods.

the second

The Venolia 4.00 inch piston traditional design very rigid and forgiving perfect for turbo or nitrous (up to 250HP).
Notice the inside window mill to reduce the weight a little bit.

[attachment=1]

[attachment=2]

the third

CP custom piston x box design for 100mm nikasil compression height 1.06 22mm piston pin and only 373 g. Combined with Porsche 100mm cylinders perfect for street.

the forth

CP custom piston x box design 4.040 inch  compression height 1.06 22mm piston pin and only 415 g (window mill to reduce the weight) designed to survive 500 HP.

Dear Shag

I got my heads without any stud holes. Yes it was first welded and than machined to the 9° valve angle as this is the only possibility to angle the rockers for the 1-2 side. All threats are also 9° this makes it possible to shim it to the right geometry, necessary when for examble the valve or spring length is changed. I prefere stands in the right height without shims.

MeXX
[/quote]
I see! Only the 1-2 head with angled rockers is machined 9*
Very nice work can't wait to see your new design as well as your clutch set up when done.

the fifth

last but definitely not least
Yates racing custom CP piston 4.062 compression height 1.16 22mm piston pin and only 412g with window mill it will be below
400g  ;D

Dear Shag

No both are milled to 9°

MeXX

Thanks Mexx,

yeah like a ball check valve i think? seems about $25-33 each?

i can see the sense in them!

my KTM enduro bike seems like it uses a screw in jet?.... i'll find a picture



Cheers

(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/andy198712/P1010053-2.jpg)

need to look into that and see if its just a hole or a check valve....

great pics mexx

THX Tim

What pistons do U prefer ???

MeXX

J&E 4" == good to about 900HP

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss306/Fiatdude/photobucket-1204-1338418363434.jpg)

moving up to heads, are there any other options out there that are street worthy other then:

Super Flows
Angle Flows
JPM's
?

IE anything my bank wont disown me over?  ;D

Comp Eliminators

The one rule about heads is -- Look into your wallet and see how much you can afford to spend -- lay it out on the counter -- -- -- --

Heads are the one thing that can really help the performance of your car and you won't regret the money spent

Being possibly the most bang for your buck too I guess!

venolia are good...j&e also...trying a set of Cp's in new engine now..lighter for sure that the venolia..

Hi

What forging number do they have ?

I have tried till now: X100A and 28-1
The next I will try will be: X115 R

MeXX

I have used Wiesco, JE, Venolia and now CP on the new motor. I love the CPs best. Oh but mine are just babies and don't fit I this trend. Only 92mm

Dear Shag

I've used Wiesco because they were of the shelf.
I've used Venolia custom pistons traditional design very rigid and forgiving.
I've used CP pistons X box forgings very innovative and professional design.

And Shag who says size doesn't matter ?  ;D  ;D  ;D

MeXX

I have build one wbx engine with 101's for racing only , it has 280 hp with 51 carbs , he has run 10,9 in a street car this year . But i would never build this engine size with less hp for german street driving - autobahn -

Udo

Why not not Udo?
I have been collecting parts for a 4'' type 4 engine, deutz cilinders(100mm) and JE pistons de rest stock. (71 crank, CU heads, hoping a JPM cam).
Is this not ok for street use? Because will be a street engine.

Regards Edgar

On a type4 it is ok , this engine has 12mm more space between the cylinders

Udo

Dear Edgar

I'm 100% with Udo 4 inch with type 1 bore spacing (112mm) (doesn't matter what case: WBX, Autolinea, Scat, Autocraft, AF1; ARPM) is not good for street use.
The reason is the cooling or better the lack of it between the cylinders: if you have 112mm bore spacing and 101,6 bore there are 10,4 mm left for two barrels, cooling fins and space for cooling air for the bottom (hotter) side of the cylinders.
You have three possibilities:
1. Thin barrels cooling fins and space for the cooling air.  :-[
2. Thicker barrels no fins and little space for the cooling air.  :-[
3. Seamees cylinders with no space for the cooling air.   :-[

UC

MeXX

Dear Edgar

As there are a lot of 4 inchers on street U have some possibilities to overcome this problems:

Take heads with a lot cooling fins like Thorsten Pieper or JPM's.
Take nikasil instead of casted iron barrels lower friction means less heat and aluminum can transfer the heat better from the hot sections to the ones where there is more cooling.
If you take nikasil 100mm Porsche is better than 101,6 as it is thicker and superior in quality.
Run oil squirters and really huge oil cooler to transfer air cooling to oil cooling.
Low CR and low horsepower produces less heat. (but who wants a 4 inch low HP mill  ???)
Thinking of running E85 it would make everything much cooler.  ;D

MeXX

Edgar has a type4 so he has original good heads for that bore .

Udo

( And Shag who says size doesn't matter ? )
When it is N/A it does! Bigger bore = bigger intake=more power!
In my case ( turbo ) bigger bore = less efficiency, more heat and less strength.

I edited your post Shag, ha ha!

Kinda depense on what you are after. Most hp pr liter or most hp overall. The NA engines with the highest number of hp pr liter must combine the fastest airspeed, most flow, most suitable bore and optimal stroke to push out the hp it needs. Or you can build a 3liter type 4 with 300hp.

It's much, much cooler to have 235-245hp from a 1915cc than 300hp from a LARGE type 4  8)

How about 375 or more from a 74x108, or 230 from a 74x88?
What about turbo motors?

Nice numbers :)

Turbo beats it anyway :)

 ;) Hi Shag, Turbo motors will likely benefit from the large throats,(and bores)
but it is a bit hard to tell, since there are good numbers from even small bores.
Even tiny engines make great power with boost so long as the tune is right.

No disrespect to anyone with my observations,
but if you ignore dyno claims,
and use MPH and mass, to align the scale:

I can only comment what I have seen,
and by using track performance as a bench mark/datum,
I have never seen any VW engine show better than about 340,
that is Super street and pro stock record MPH's.

None with 108 bores and huge valves.(the large valve/throat cross section being my sore point)
Perhaps if the 11 or 12000rpm were used to get the air speed up? who knows.(or longer strokes).
I am sure anything is possible, but yet to see any record numbers from the big bores and large valves that normally go with them.

The other problem is that because most classes are capacity limited,
the large bore means short stroke, and even with rod lengths under stock,
it just agrivates the air speed issue.

Type 4's?
I can only think of two N/A ones in the world that are around a real 300hp(calculated from MPH not imagined),
and I'l bet they are either big cc or have smaller(<54mm) valves and likely comparitively short rods.

These are only my viewpoint on what(how) i see around the traps.
I hope my comments give food for thought and generate some discussion.

I'd say you may be right. Until we see he #s equated from MPH they we all just figures from a dyno.
Pats motor I believe is in the Neighborhood of 330 at pro stock weight. Roger Crowfords pro stock motor is there also as well as his super street motor and its 82x96.5 bore

As far as i know one of the fastest super stock engines only has 90,5 bore . with 86 stroke something about 270 hp ...
So i think that big bores do not make the power. but the heads do
Udo

That's a different scenario Udo. Valve size limited. The 90.5 bore has a better intake vale to bore ratio at 49%

Hi

latest pix from my version of a street 4 inch mill

[attachment=1]
Bare Competition Eliminator with Beryllium seats installed

[attachment=2]
Stud holes drilled

[attachment=3]
Step for the combustion chamber and head gasket milled

[attachment=4]
Porsche nikasil barrels and billet spacers installed.

MeXX

Nice, are those CEs? What valve size and bore?

Dear Shag

Yes these are CE and I bought them as bare castings;
51,4mm intake valve 40mm exhaust valve
100mm bore Porsche 993 nikasil barrels.

MeXX

Perfect! 51% of bore. If these are to be street heads then will you use an oil bar for cooling?

THX Shag
I run oil squirters on all engines street or race.
I run huge oil coolers to cope as much cooling as possible by oil

MeXX

Dear Mex, what stroke are you using as the barrels look fairly short!
Do the spacers 'extend' the barrel to stop the piston cocking at the bottom?

Dear Ian

As Porsche uses only 76mm stroke this barrels are very short. Maximum stroke U can run is 82mm,
the spacers a necessary to get the right height with Autolinea case and 5.400 rods.

MeXX

(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/June107.jpg)
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/June110.jpg)
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/June108.jpg)
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/June112.jpg)

My 104 mm JE. 440 g with CNC copied dome from my E-Plus heads.
71 mm stroke.
5.325" rods

Hi

They look really nice; what CR to U get with this dome?
Low compression height means the need of a guard ring, the mounting of this pistons is a little bit
tricky.

MeXX

The heads are bit tricky with deep chambers. Therefore custom domes.
I should be able to get up to 11.5:1 with a tight quench and 1.3 mm clearance.
I might increase that to 1.5 mm.

very nice Udo

Hi to all 4 inchers

some new pix from the heads from my kind of a 4 inch street engine

[attachment=1]
bare casted inlet runner

[attachment=2]
finished inlet runner

[attachment=3]
ported inlet runner

[attachment=4]
finished inlet runner

MeXX

Mexx, do you have any flow numbers on your heads that you are willing to share?

Hi

I don't think that this heads will spend time on a flow bench.
As this is a street engine that is focused on torque they have not to big ports.
The flow numbers should be in the neighbourhood of 260 CFM @ .600 lift and 25".

MeXX

First WBX with an oilsump :-) I like it but a lot of work

Udo

nice

Some more pix

[attachment=1]
polished intake runner

[attachment=2]
mirror finish closeup

[attachment=3]
closeup actual size versus bare casting


MeXX

nice and shiny mexx....keep up the good work

Nice,

But very strange I always hear you should not polish your inlets, but the big guns always do?  :-[

regards edgar

Dear Edgar

There will always be guys who say size doesn't matter  ;D
There will always be guys who say polish isn't good  ;D

But at least it looks cool  :o

Always thrust the Big Guns they know how to go fast

 ;D MeXX

Hahaha...
thanks for the honnest answer mexx...

ok I will thrust the big guns from now on.

Regards Edgar

In my opinion they shouldnt be polished, if you could see what the ports on really quick cars have,its a quite rough surface,you will rarely see this as they wont show you there own heads ;) , the shiny port came about as "customers know best" and want it as it looks better :o not understanding the principle behind the rough surface,just thinking it doesnt look good so cant be good.
The shiny surface is supposed to encourage the fuel to fall out of atomisation and puddle which is bad,i have never seen a "big gun" polish heads to be shiny,they just do what is needed,no more as its wasted time and effort,and you the customer has to pay for that time and effort, just my opinion ;)

cheers richie   

IMHO

You will not be able to gain CFM or HP with a rough surface intake port compaired to a polished one.
But it is true that if polishing helps it will definitely not be much.
The possibility that  fuel to falls out of atomisation will if ever take place with carbs not with EFI.

as I started IMHO MeXX

Eddie,

as an example of what I am talking about,heres a picture of Johannes port work and finish on my 4inch heads


cheers richie

A golf ball isn't smooth for a reason...

Eddy

I think i did your heads and they are right. You can trust me. i think it is not a question of big guns but different meanings... Those shiny ports are more for show and shine :-)

Udo

Mexx, like Richie says, you won't see highly polished intake ports used by head porters who really know their stuff. A textured finish (within reason) will encourage any fuel that may have fallen out of suspension to rejoin the airflow, whereas a mirror finish surface encourages droplets or even small puddles of raw fuel to form and trickle their way down the port, independent of the main air/fuel charge. If I were you I'd flap the walls of the port with 40 or 60 grit emery cloth to eliminate the shine. CNC ported heads work just fine without polishing out the machine marks - assuming the port design is a good one in the first place! The golf ball comment by Zach is relevant too... a smooth finish can allow the formation of a boundary layer - that's why a smooth golf ball won't travel as far or as fast as a dimpled one.

You unlikely to see any difference in CFM between a rough and smooth finish on the flowbench but on the engine you could pick up some power with the rough finish as a result of burning more fuel and achieving a more evenly distributed air/fuel mix in the chamber. This applies to EFI as well as carbs but can vary depending on engine speed and injector placement.

There's a possible benefit to having a highly polished port on the exhaust side, where the small reduction in surface area will see the head absorb a little less heat from the exhaust gas. Whether it makes any appreciable difference to horsepower or not is debatable, plus the fact it'll carbon up instantly anyway.

The shape and size of a port is vastly more important than the finish.

PS  I've very much enjoyed reading about your car - a stunning piece of work!

Hi

I did not want to start the discussion how to finish inlet runners as every engine builder has its own truth.
But its definitely not true that professional engine builders do not polish the intake ports.

For an example here are some pix of a high horsepower Moto GP intake from Ilmor.
I know that these are no air cooled VW's but you can see the injectors and it seems that they don't have the
problem that fuel to falls out of atomisation.

[attachment=1]

[attachment=2]

[attachment=3]

So long MeXX

Moto GP engines run up to 18,000rpm - that helps with fuel atomisation  ;)

I know you did udo, i never doupt that.

But i have been trying to gain all the info I can get, and did some portwork (2 race engines) on a friend of mine circuitcar (alfa 2.0 twinspark engines) did not polish it, but made it bigger and rought it up after that.
Really strong engines he went 2 seconds faster (on a 2min lap) with those engines then before. and I liked doing this... :D
But have seen some same engines in raceshops with a lot of polishing on the inlets altough the onwers said it is not ok to do so..... so I get confused...

But I like to do everything myself, did my own engine (less the heads  ;D)...
said it before, i am collectng parts for a new engine (also CU heads) and like to do the heads myself this time..

But thanks for sharing all those info guys... (also John and Richie)

Regards Edgar

Hi mexx

interesting pictures,the injector on top of the velocity stack will no doubt give its own set of variables,and we cant see under the throttle plate,the stack being polished is another topic,but looking at the ports closely they don't appear to be polished to me,I may be wrong as its not 100% clear in the picture of the heads,I have marked in yellow the areas I am looking at

cheers richie

I learned that a golf ball is dimpled to be stable in the air. I talked to some guys from a pro cycling team that spent considerable time in a wind tunnel and they got no gains from a dimpled surface. But they also adhered to the idea of a boundary layer that acted almost like a roller bearing for the reast of the airflow. He would not rule out that some "texture" to the finish would help but said this would not be a great difference. As he was talking about the outside of bicycle frames and wheels he did not worry about atomization of fuel mixture..

I think we need mythbusters on the case :)

An aerodynamic track cyclist can manage 60+kph...
Air speed in the intake port of even a modest street engine reaches more than Mach 0.5
A slight difference  ;)

  ;D

or just you  ;D

Indeed..

I think everybody gets his own experiance and should do so . If Mexx got good results with the polishing he can polish the ports . I do not know any other head builder who does it like that ...

Udo

Keep that good info and updates coming! loving it! ;D

I just went onto Wikipedia, now I know this site is not gospel but I put in head porting to see what came up.

It's worth a read.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cylinder_head_porting

i think i'm going to DFL coat my intake ports and manifolds.... i'll fill in later why it helps when i get chance...

Same reason, I would suspect, velocity stacks are sometimes Teflon coated?

SLIPPERY!  ;)
TxT

Well... apparently...quoting my info on coatings i got from Techline....

coating an intake manifold with a DFL also know as "fluid retaining" coatings... the coating will have a tendency to create a small amount of boundary layer turbulence which will reduce fuel drop out.... so it says

The Teflon coating I've seen have the characteristics to produce that effect.
The coating or abrased port surface, I've been told, acts as ball bearings to the air flow ... small disturbance at the wall's surface acts as rollers for the main charge to run over ... kinda like hydroplaning, almost. Makes sense to me.

Alternatively, I've often wondered the potential positive affects of polishing the combustion chamber as it carbons up rather quickly, perhaps an excellently polished surface would be beneficial there?

TxT

Without detracting from this excellent topic....
I would be surprised if there are really any measurable negatives from Mexx's polished ports,
other than the time it takes.

I too read somewhere about all the percieved problems with polished ports,
but I know that I can measure, and feel, the difference
between a rotary-burr-finish and that of a sanding roll. 

You have to be careful/sceptical of any data that is sourced from companies that sell products and services.

I think there is a lot of old wives tails and theorys that are out there,
and in the old days it was false representation in the magazine and text book media,
but these days it is the internet as well.
 
More often than not, the beneficiary is a company/individual because
it may be worth a sale,
mean less work for them,
or simply to give their opposition some misdirection.

I'll bet not many people have done a real VALID comparison with the "polished port".
My guess is that it MAY BE? worth something in the power stakes,
but not a good return on the investment of both time and dollars
for both the porter, nor the customer.

...and besides any valid comparison must have a unit of measure,
so is worthless without some measure of the surface finish
at which the benefits can be measured and compared.

Among other areas of interest regarding beneficial pipe dreams are :

bore hone patterns can only be done on one brand of machine
valve jobs ditto
cast iron barrels are no good
long rods are better
short rods are better
porsche shrouds are no good
all oils/additives except mine will cause engine/trans  failure.
cryogenics produces measurable benefits.
line boring will make your engine blow up
coatings are worth the money
and I could go on.

Yes, some of these things CAN be beneficial and some not.

With some logic and common sense, you would have to agree that
accurate and precise machine work,
and meticulous preparation,
and good tuning
are always more of a winner than
some perceived magic pill delivered by a witch doctor.

Most will probably totally miss the point i am trying to make,
I I guess that is my own fault for breaking another golden rule:
I can "complicate simple things."
 ::)
 

I totally agree with David,it's so true but like you said,most will mis your point willing to make ;)

Anyway Mexx did a hell of a job on his entire build,nice to have a chat with you at Dday Mexx!(was in front of your car where you wasn't allowed to set your pit ;)sorry for that ;)

Steve Aka FAST SCRAP

Spot on!

Taking one element of an engine build out of context and concentrating on it to the exclusion of everything else is NOT going to deliver a whole heap of extra horsepower. Regarding the recent discussion on port wall finish... choosing rough over smooth isn't going to make or break the engine. The dimensions and shape of the port, along with the valve job and chamber design are responsible for 99.9% of how the head will perform. If you haven't got the basics right, no amount of shine or hi-tech coating will disguise the fact you just wasted time and money polishing a turd.

(http://rockyjennings.com/images/shop%20pics%201197a.jpg)
(http://rockyjennings.com/images/shop%20pics%201196a.jpg)

IMO, a dry-sump is much easier. I wonder, after all the welding, milling, drilling and tapping, whether a dry-sump is cheaper, too...

I welded and cut an original hole and 1,5 Berg sump

Udo

That is how I did my first one in 1996, but with a 4 lt sump.
My engine was a 92 bore with 90 stroke.

Almost square!

ha ha

Interesting picture and statement:

(http://www.raceinfo.no/temp/dimples_3.jpg)

I know very rough works , i'm at probably 15+ engines so far in my tests and all 15+ have gained , its been 100% so far. Its ugly, but it makes HP!

-BB-

Not ugly.
I love it!

How is that "uniformity" done?  (cannot think of another word right now)

that is amazing work,I am not sure many of us need to go to that extreme,the hours in it proberly wouldn't justify its cost


cheers richie

looks like snake skin....or golf ball

Think I seen that on Yellow Bullet. CNC programed

Done on this machine http://www.rottlermfg.com/cylinder-head-shop-machine.php?model=P69   wicked looking finish, search for dimples intake on google and many more intake results pop up. Some interesting approches some guys have...

Rottler 5axis has some other tricks:
(http://www.rottlermfg.com/images/bbc_A_3.jpg)

cnc

nice! Just needs a little more gasket surface area.

A little V8 world perspective on polished ports....
Back in the day, I knew a NHRA comp eliminator racer. These racers are known for extracting every last ounce of performance out of any given combination. While doing between round maintenance, he explained why they had highly polished chambers and exhaust ports. It was so any carbon wouldn't stick and it made for easy cleanup. A squirt with chem-tool and followed by WD40 would easily clean any trace of residue with a simple wipe-job.

The intake ports were left unpolished.

He wasn't above giving a customer  "ported & polished" heads because they had seen it in a magazine, so it had to be the way to go! It was so purdy!

http://www.brighthubengineering.com/hydraulics-civil-engineering/58569-how-golf-ball-dimples-reduce-air-resistance/

Hi to all the 4inchers

Here's another version of my 4 inch race engines

[attachment=1]
New billet Cylinders

[attachment=2]
Billet Cylinders for Autolinea case

[attachment=3]
Modified Autolinea case

[attachment=4]
Modified Autolinea case

MeXX

[attachment=1]

[attachment=2]

[attachment=3]

[attachment=4]

Here's the second version with a Autocraft case

[attachment=1]

[attachment=2]

[attachment=3]

So long MeXX

BIG thumb arriba!!!

Awesome you are one clever dude meXX :)

Wow! Impressive stuff, MeXX!!! :o

Tobi

awesome mexx...keep it up ;D

Very nice Mexx!!

HELLO MEX,SOME 26YRS AGO WHEN I STARTDED PORTING HEADS AT GENE BERG ENT, BTW A VERY WELL KNOWN AND VERY SUCSESSFULL VW INAVATOR WITH MANY NHRA WINS ON N/A ENGINES (NOT HAIR DRYER ENGINES)ANYWHO, THERE WERE A VERY NUMBER OF SETS THAT ME AN MY MENTOR DID THAT WERE FULLY POLISHED, CHAMBERS,EXHAST,AND INTAKE, AND THE CARS THEY WENT ON DID NOT EFECT THEM AS FAR AS PURE PERFORMANCE IN A NATERAIL ASPERATED WORLD. MANY MANY SETS OF 12SEC AND 11SEC HEADS WERE DONE THIS WAY,HUMM THOSE ARE VERY RESPECTIBLE ##S, DO I FULLY POLISH TODAY, NO AND WHY IS ITS VERY UNHEALTHY TO BRING THE PORT TO THIS STATE,ITS BAD ENGHOF TO BRING IT TO A 40 GRIT FINISH, WHAT IM SAYING IS IT WORKS BOTH WAYS. THERE ARE ALOT OF LAZY HEAD PORTERS OUT THERE, AND IF THEY GIVE YOU THE LINE THAT UGLY IN A PORT IS BETTER THERE JUST FLAT OUT FULL OF IT. IF YOUR GOING TO SPEND A MILLON DOLLARS ON A SET OF HEADS WHAT WOULD YOU RATHER HAVE, SOME THING THAT THE FLINTSTONES DID OR SOMETHING THAT A TRUE ARTISTS DID. OR YOU COULD JUST (CHEAT) AND HANG THE BIGGEST HAIR DRYER OFF THE ASS END OF IT AND PRAY THAT IT STAYS TOGETHER. NICE GOODS YA GOT THERE MEX. UD OUT.

Those cylinders are badass. Are there iron sleeves pressed in or are they going to be nikasil coated?

Hi

These are for race use only and are nodular iron sleeved.

MeXX

looks fantastic!

In 1986 I was building my own 4,060" bore engine based on TIV block.
I boughta  set of angle flow heads "3 litre heads" , bare casting.
I cut them up and started building my own split port heads.

Scat released a new set of heads that suited me and the cut up heads sat for a while on my shelf.
Then I gave them away to a friend.
He is pretty skilled in most everything.

Welding practice took place on my old heads.
This was all done long time a go but I just had to share the pictures when I came across these old friends last week.

[attachment=1][attachment=2]

Found these old pictures from 1995-6 I think.

(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n216/dangerous_05/Oxy4.jpg) (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/dangerous_05/media/Oxy4.jpg.html)

(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n216/dangerous_05/Oxy3.jpg) (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/dangerous_05/media/Oxy3.jpg.html)

(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n216/dangerous_05/Oxy2.jpg) (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/dangerous_05/media/Oxy2.jpg.html)

(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n216/dangerous_05/Oxy1.jpg) (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/dangerous_05/media/Oxy1.jpg.html)

some pulley wheel ;) what blower did it spin?

Back then it was a Godfrey-Marshall K200,

(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n216/dangerous_05/Blown1775cc10.jpg) (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/dangerous_05/media/Blown1775cc10.jpg.html)

but eventually put these on:
(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n216/dangerous_05/Autorotorsintubecar.jpg) (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/dangerous_05/media/Autorotorsintubecar.jpg.html)

Good morning all.

With a larger bore/larger cylinder volume is there any special considerations in terms of
ignition source ?

I'm still at the "collecting parts" stage and was thinking about coil per plug V wasted spark.

I use wasted spark at the moment on my small motor but was considering coil per plug for my bigger engine (with boost)

Any thoughts or experience gratefully received.

Have a good day now
Darren

Dear Darren

COP (Coil on plug) is my choice too. I'm using it on the street engine and on the racing mill.
First I was running Ford EDIS wasted spark with ignition wires 238HP with up to 200HP NOS,
and never had and Ignition issue.
Now I'm running AEM pencil type COP to get rid of the plug wires over 300HP and up too 200HP NOS
and never had and Ignition issue.

So keep on 4 inchin'

MeXX

Hi Mexx
Thanks for the input and the examples of your results.
Good to know the AEM performed well, I've been looking at their products as an alternative to MSD.

Any reason you went for coil 'on' plug instead of coil 'per' plug ?
I was thinking of using something like this :
http://www.aemelectronics.com/high-output-inductive-dumb-coil-1239

Thanks again
Darren

I'm setting m e up with he smart coils. Very nice! Though mine is not big bore.

Hi
When you say 'smart' coils, I'm guessing that's the type that need a driver/controller ?
I'm hoping I can use 'dumb' coils as I'm pretty sure my ecu can drive
up to 6 coils directly.

Thanks for the reply, good to know people have their ignition
this way as I can't recall seeing 4x coils or coils on plugs that often.
(although didn't the wheeler dealer bus use coil per plug ? Can't
recall the controller/driver though, possibly MSD ?)

Thanks
Darren

Smart coils have built in ignighter while dumb coils need a ignighter box.
Allen Fores car has a Motec ignition box and bumb coils. It makes 1150hp!

Good morning 4 inchers

Any recommendations for turbo friendly pistons ?
Looks like I might need some with a BIIIIG dish.

I'm in the UK so a local brand would be handy but not essential.
Anyone used Accralite or Omega pistons ?

Thanks
Darren

I'd say, for turbo (and nitrous) you don't want a certain piston brand, but more a piston specification.

i have used JE dished pistons 4" and autocraft cylindersin a turbo engine with good results .  But who needs a turbo :-)

There are Accralite 103 pistons avaliable for Type4 engines , good quality for N/A engines

Udo

JE pistons in mine -- They will modify them any way you want too (for a small additional fee LOL) like moving the wrist pin location up or down and put whatever top you want on them -- These are turbo friendly with the top dish milled -- the top ring gland moved down -- the the wrist pin location moved up (into the oil ring) for using a longer rod

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss306/Fiatdude/photobucket-1204-1338418363434.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/Fiatdude/media/photobucket-1204-1338418363434.jpg.html)

These are 4"+.030 -- I have a almost new set of 4" exactly like these for sale if you'd be interested -- set up for chevy rods

Thanks for the replies

So important factors are :

Crown thickness (especially with turbo, I need one udo  ;))
Ringland area and ringpack size
Compression hight
Dish size (circular or chamber mirror)

Ceramic coated crown and Teflon coated skirts look nice but not essential

Anything else I'm missing ?

Fiatdude - thanks for the offer. I've got to mock up my engine first and take some much needed measurements.
Boxes of parts are no good for measuring deck hight, clearances etc.
I'm pretty certain I've got to lower my compression quite a bit and as chamber mods are a no no,
so I'm looking at other areas first.

What CC dish are your pistons ? I have 12cc now but would like 20+

Thanks
Darren

Thanks for the info Chris.

I'm pretty sure I'll be needing a deep dish as chamber volume is only 45cc.
Johannes has advised not to touch the chamber so I'll be leaving well alone.

I did hear about your engine numbers through the grapevine - VERY impressive !
You must be really pleased.

Thanks
Darren

remember with a 4" bore a dish goes a long way -- but with 45cc heads you might have to drop the piston back down into the cylinder -- If you have ceramic guy I would do a coating especially with a turbo

When your painting the image of you engine, you need to make some decisions and start working outward from there -- I would recommend finding a combination that works and then copying it rather than picking one from column A, one from column B style ----- There are many ways to put together an engine and sometimes the parts just don't work well together -- so if you know someone who has gone down this road before and you like the results of their build, I'd copy it

When your painting the image of you engine, you need to make some decisions and start working outward from there -- I would recommend finding a combination that works and then copying it rather than picking one from column A, one from column B style ----- There are many ways to put together an engine and sometimes the parts just don't work well together -- so if you know someone who has gone down this road before and you like the results of their build, I'd copy it

[/quote]

That's some sound advice there - thanks

Selecting parts that work together is a skillful art that I've come to appreciate from any engine builder !

The majority of my engine came complete (thanks Richie) but was missing heads. Getting the heads I have now to work with the
rest of the parts is now my biggest itch. I certainly wasn't banking on needing such a big compression loss.
Sadly there's not an abundance of 4" turbo engines out there for reference and lowering compression also seems to be
a builders preference rather than a set method.

Thanks
Darren

How much are the Billet Cylinders Mexx?

+1 I'd like to know too - for 6 stud Autolinea case

Thanks
Darren

Hi...

There is a 6 stud version
[attachment=1]
[attachment=2]

and a 7 stud version available...
[attachment=3]
[attachment=4]

Billet cylinder housing is 980 € each...

for intrest U can PM me...

MeXX

New Heads available...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6qxE8coG54

MeXX

4 years now, many people still doing 4inches or has it fallen out of fashion?

Still building mine, about 7 years now  :o

I’ve just brought a wbx to aircool and I’m thinking about it, but it’s some major money to drop on the heads isn’t it?!

I've still got mine but it's in boxes spread over two counties  ::)

The closest I've got is my 'eco' mock up engine  :D

[attachment=1]

looks like 3inch to me?  ;D

i'm currently weighing up keeping the WBX head stud pattern and looking into 4in bore.... or going smaller  :'(

Not just the heads!

This is true.
The thing that catches me eye is the gap between the cylinders is so small, I don’t use my car as a daily anymore but I like to drive it and plan a trip to Europe once it’s all up and running I think so need something that can handle the distance okay at sensible speeds (60-70 prolonged)

Wooden cylinders are a lot cheaper than Pauter but I suspect they don't cool as well  ;D

Andy - what did you have in mind for pistons and barrels ?

4" bore still popular today?

thinking of getting some parts for one with TF-1 case. what bore and stroke is recomended and who sells the crank, rods, pistons?

This Virus ain't helping my 4" build!

It is here ;)  Depends on what you want to do with it? race or street? N/A/turbo/nitrous?

cheers Richie

What actually is the hold up on it? seems like you been waiting several years?

cheers Richie

Deutz or Porsche 964 I’m thinking.... pistons I don’t know but more then likely have some made unless I find some that fit well....
Long term build though, probably 100mm bore too maybe... who knows. The heads are the main factor, was look at aircraft heads earlier in an oxyboxer build from lambiech (sp)

I’ve got another engine to finish and blow up first ;)

Very slow engine builder.

Got my parts back now

80 % street with highway driving. 20% hill climb spirited driving and maybe once twice a year fun drag. 4 speed gearbox with 3.88 RP ratios to be spec out accordingly . NA with Type 1 cooling. Sequential EFI with Jenvey IDA throttle bodies. I have European RON 100 and RON 98mm TF-1 case is what I have in mind, need advise on the rest of the parts.  currently running sequential EFI 2332 with 170whp type 1 cooling 044 heads, Wasp Stage 1 exhaust. JPM heads only option?

JPM heads are the best option for street use.

Thats a 2x4 engine isnt it??  ;)

If it’s for a Race car maybe but for a Road car waste of time and money.  How fast can you go on the road? Doesn’t matter if you have a 2.8 or a 2165 you won’t get traction.  It makes  more sense to me to use off the shelf parts 94mm B&P, CNC heads, etc for a road car or use those parts with a power adder if racing. They are cheaper, more available and you won’t be waiting years.

Here is mine pity it's on hold due to other projects

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200330/dbe2682db31250d64251a8e0dcddc031.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200330/6440340a21cd73b86956ff3a118904e0.jpg)

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

Do you have a heavy right foot Dave  :D

Just to scare audi s tesla s en mercs, a 170hp engine won t do that anymore.

If you got the budget then 82x101.6 ,5.4 rod with "C" pin height piston keeps it nice and narrow and pushrods short, I would do flange crank and get thrust set up done to the tf1 case, there are few heads out there that can be used or made to work [like cb comp elims with no stud pattern] JPMs probably cool the best but both angleflos and comp elims been proven to work on street and cool good enough, and there are some others from Thorsten pieper that look like they would cool well 

I sold mr. piepers heads over year ago and havent yet ordered my own design heads. Maybe later at this year.  I already have all valvetrain parts and material for valvecovers, it is one reason that i am not goiing to order off the shelf heads.

Yeah, more displamecent is needed, atleast 2400cc with high +85hp/liter tune, fuel injection migth help and on the circuits/highways 5-speed close ratio transaxle.

Add boost to what you have -- with 7 PSI you easily have 250 HP -- I had a 3 liter (2990) (4.060" x 90mm) and it was very difficult to keep it cool in SoCal driving it around. Maybe it you went 4" and keep the size down around 2500 it might live better. But I like the performance of a boosted engine a lot better...

Was it the outside temperature that meant you couldn't keep it cool or the install/design of the system ? With hindsitght do you think you could control it now.

I always presumed with enough oil coolers and fans you could keep an engine cool enough.

Mine won't have an oil cooler in the fanhousing (oil ways blocked off) but thought I could easily compensate with 2x decent sized, well placed, good quality oil coolers with fans fitted. Or am I wrong  ???