The Cal-look Lounge

Guys I have the opportunity to buy some engine parts :

- 1x type 1 engine case, double oil regulation, machined for a 1776 kit and with machined camshaft location (sorry I don't know the name in english)
- 1x 69 mm rectified crankshaft
- 2x 040 cylinder heads, double ports, machined for a 1776 kit
- 1x 200mm flywheel
- 4x original VW rods

Everything are original made in germany VW parts, no cracks, checked and cleaned. Never used since it's been modified.

What do you think ? Is that a good start for begining an engine ?

 Thanks ;)

Up ;)

I have infos about the case, it's a late german 1300 F case with the double oil regulators, controlled and machined by a pro for a 1776 kit.

well depending on the price, if you plan to make a mild 1776 I guess it's a good start...

That will be the first engine I'll build, I want something simple and reliable that I can drive when and where I want. I can get all this for about the price of a new un-controlled and un-machined stock AS41 case...

Well it's coming at home now. ;D

the F case engine cases didn't have dual oil relief plungers, that didnt start till 1970
at least here in the states
and everthing since 1965 has had cam bearings

Thanks for the infos Ron.  ;)
The case does have dual oil relief plungers, so I guess it's from a late 1300 AB.

I picked up the parts today, the case is from a F engine, but with dual oil relief (the seller said it's one of the very last made). I'll post a few pics.

Pics and infos here http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,5591.210.html  ;)

Go for it!

 ;)

I'm now collecting a lot of informations, I have a lot of things to ask ! ;D

this case has been reconiditioned by someone, possibly Vw ,you can tell because of the surface where the numbers are has been machined down and the numbers restamped in the case. Also it has case savers installed but it is not deep studed on topof  # 3 cylinder next to the flywheel

That explains why a F case has dual oil pressure reliefs. It seems it was reconditioned by VW because it has a VW logo (with an arrow around) next to the original VW logo, where the numbers have been restamped.

What is the deep studed on the #3 cylinder ? And case savers ? Thanks  ;)

case savers are the threads for the cylinder studs, it looks like an M8 helicoil has been inserted into the original M10 thread but i don't if that's what they are.
and deep studded means that the upper left of cylinder 3 lies deeper into the case and i believe they are thicker too M10 instead of M8.

this is the best picture to look at to see what ron meant
[attachment=1]

also, the case has been spot faced. those are good things and they'll save you from those expenses, which leaves more money for parts  ;)

so, what's the plan? i think you can build a nice 1776, IMO cams to look at would be w110 or w120. or how about a web 218?
what are you planning on for carburation? kadrons, IDF/DRLA, DCNF, IDA?

Ok now I see what case savers are. Yes on the oil cooler side it has 8 case savers for the cylinders studs (seems to be M8), but look at the generator stand side, it has 3 holes without savers (red arrows), and I have this 2 types of studs for this. Does it means something wrong or it's ok ?

[attachment=1]

[attachment=2]





Yes that's nice because all the machining has already been made. The project is to build a "mild" road engine. I want something reliable that I can drive when I want and where I want, I almost never drive on highways, most of the time on mountain/countryside roads. That's where I need a lot of advices and help from you guys to have something fun to drive, pleasant and reliable for my first engine build.  ;D

for as far as i know, case savers are inserted in the inner face of both case halves where they meet.
they are like small dowel pins that fall into both case halves around the areas where the threads form the one case half pass through the other (do you understand?)
i thought that was just round the areas where the crankshaft bearings are inserted.

the prime function of case savers are just what their names say: they keep the case together and prevent the vertical movement of the two case halves that might be cause be high rpms of the crankshaft (especially when it's non-counterweighted).

died: remember John (CNC wizard) explained this when we picked up some of my engine stuff?

for as far as i know, case savers are inserted in the inner face of both case halves where they meet.
they are like small dowel pins that fall into both case halves around the areas where the threads form the one case half pass through the other (do you understand?)
i thought that was just round the areas where the crankshaft bearings are inserted.

the prime function of case savers are just what their names say: they keep the case together and prevent the vertical movement of the two case halves that might be cause be high rpms of the crankshaft (especially when it's non-counterweighted) and thus maintain even wear of the crankshaft bearings and the engine in its total.

died: remember John (CNC wizard) explained this when we picked up some of my engine stuff?


sorry, something went wrong and the message was sent twice..

those are shuffle pins  ;)

the case pictured above is not deep studded on # 3 and you have one type of head stud, just some of them took the case saver out when they were removed. They are not for keeping main bearing saddles aligned under severe use or high rpm. They were designed to keep head studs from bearing directly on magnesium case threads.

Okaaaaaaayyy now I see guys !  ;)
And you see how much I need help with engines  ;D (and technical language in english makes it harder for me  :P)

Just to know, why some case are deep studded on cylinder #3 ?

if i'm correct, that's the part was the case gets the hottest and it's relatively thin. some cases have the recess behind the flywheel (just around the corner of that area) filled. deep studding it gives it a bit more flesh.
correct me if i'm wrong.

You are correct its a form of strengthening the case at its most vulnerable place for cracks.

Nico, looks like a good case, chuck the case savers back in and build the motor, I would recommend a fk8 cam with 1.4 rockers nice port heads, don't over port keep good velocity for torque out of those mountain rd corners, twin 44 IDF and good merged exhaust, have fun building it.

My friend has just finished 1835 with stock heads, 8,9:1 compression ratio, Scat C35 and two 40 DRLAs taken from some dead Alfa-Romeo. Definitely stronger than stock Beetle, but still very.... "comfortable".  You know, in a way that somebody used to modern cars, and not a car enthusiast could drive it and he wouldn't complain. Except for the gearbox which just lacks fifth gear.

Thanks for your infos guys, that's exactly what this thread is about. ;) (And now I know that if one day I'd build a racing engine I'd get a deep studded case)




About my project, I guess IDAs will be oversized, so that will be IDFs.
With the 96/98mm machining on the case/heads and the 69mm crank, the choice will be 90,5mm cylinders for a 1776. I read it's possible to get thinner cylinders for a 1835 with the 69mm crank, what do you think, too fragile or un-adapted to 040 heads ? (I'm not afraid by working on the ports, valves, oil cooler...)

I received Keith book Aircooled VW Engine Intechange Manual today. I'll ask more questions after reading it.  :)

Wich camshaft will you use ?  ;)

I have no idea !  :D :D ;D

W110  ;)

It's quoted several times, when I finish reading my books, I'll get several engines combinations to discuss. ;)

And about storing the parts until I start building the engine, the case and heads it's not a problem, but about the crank and rods, do I need to put some oil or WD40 on it ? (they are stored inside my home in good conditions).

As long as there is not too much moisture around, WD-40 should be ok. I have had several parts stored in garage (mostly all my parts) and sprayed WD and never had a problem. You should be ok.

Ted

Thanks Ted  ;)

While looking at the crank, searching for the part number, I noticed it's only written "VW 14 XD" and "51B". Is that a F type crank ? (It also have directional oil grooves on the journals).

 ;)

So after reading all my books and some internet stuff, here are the few ideas I have using the parts I collected... In RED are things I need help with, it may seems stupid questions sometimes, but I prefer ask before buying. ;) Don't hesitate to comment !

Crankshaft
Stock 69mm 'F' type crank
8 dowels flywheel
counterweighted ?

Rods
Stock VW 311B rods
shot-penned with heavy duty bolts ?

Heads
Stock 040 VW heads
spark plugs inserts
2mm machined chambers for a 8,5:1 compression rate
35,5 and 32mm valves
bigger valves ?

Camshaft
Help needed !
Engle W110 ?
Straight-cut timing gears ?

Lifters
Stock or lightweigth ?

Pushrods
Stock or heavy duty ones ?

Rockers
Stock rockers, stock ratio 1,1:1
Bolt-up kit

Valves
35.5 and 32mm stainless steel valves
Single heavy duty springs and heavy duty retainers

Case
VW magnesium case, dual oil relief, line boring, spot faced
Heavy duty nuts and studs ? Shuffle pins ?

Pistons and cylinders
90,5mm Mahle kit with forged pistons
Heavy duty wrist pin ?

Carbs
Weber IDFs ?

Fuel
Stock or electric fuel pump ?
Regulator ?
Bigger diameter fuel lines ?

Ignition
Bosch 009 + blue coil
Spark plugs ?

Oil
Full flow + stock cooler
Additional sump plate ?
External oil cooler ?

Exhaust and Air-cooling still need to read some things.

On the crank, yes on counterweight for sure, rods, for that size motor, stock VW rods will be fine, 40X35.5 will work great, then maybe go to better rods, the W110 cam is a good choice, will work great. Straight cut gears will help with side thrust, and will sound cool. Lighten the flywheel to 12LBs, quiker rev's. Good stock German lifter's or the Scats, I use the Scats with no problem, but had Steve Long do his magic to them. They work! Heavy duty nuts and shuffle pins, don't need it. The wrist pins that come with the 90.5 are fine. 40 IDF's carb will work good. Can run IDA's but will take some tuning. Fuel pump is up to you, if you want to clean up the look, then run an electric pump W/ reg. if not, stock is fine. Sarge from DKP runs stock on IDA's with no problems. Spark plugs, need more info, are they stock regular reach or long reach or 12mm long or short reach?? Oil sump is always good, 1 1/2qt or Berg 3 1/2qt sump. Oil cooler, depends where you live, don't think you need it with that CR, but again will not hurt. Oil does need to get warm, 180*-210* is fine. This sounds like a nice motor. My first motor was a 1776cc W/E110 cam Rimco super rods Auto-Craft heads, 40X35.5. Used 42 DCNF's, ran awesome, but then went to IDA's, worked even better. Good luck on your build, hope this info helps. Just keep reading, I'm sure they'll be ther posts after this one.  ;)  :D
Forgot, Chromoly push rods for sure, NOT stock.

One more think, what ever the combo "Balance the whole thing".

Ted

hope this helsp a bit, like i said this is what i would do

Thanks for the infos Ted  ;)



Thanks for the infos nicolas ;) I'm sure after I'll taste a little more HPs in the engine I'll want more and built a bigger engine ;D for now I have a few $$$ available so I will go with the mild project.
A 9:1 CR is ok ? I'll have to calculate the exact CR before flycutting the heads.

I just built a 1776 this spring and it runs great. Parts I used are
VW dual oil pressure relief case machined
69mm counterweighted DPR crank
12lb flywheel
VW rods redone by DPR
90.5 cyl and pistons
Scat C35 cam
Scat lifters
Steve Tims new 35.5 x 40mm heads no extra porting just enough to blend new bigger valve seats heavy duty springs.
Scat chromemoly pushrods
Scat forged 1:1 rockers
Scat 1 1/2 merged header with dual muffs
Kadrons set up by Low Budget
The motor runs great and sounds great, I am very happy with the performance. The cam has good performance and at an idle the motor sounds great (can tell it has a better cam). the motor pulls past 5000 rpm real quick and the car flys down the interstate.
Larry

Now this will be interesting :D A lot of "yes, of course" anwsers. Why? Because "IT IS WRITTEN" ;)

I don't know what is the cost of reworking of the conrods in France (plus the bolts), but in Poland it is cheaper to buy Scat I beams with come with ARP bolts already installed.

I vote for Dellortos

Thanks Larry  ;)



Thanks qubek  ;)
That's expensive too, If I'd come with this, I'd buy Scat or Berg ones. But I think stock 311B will work, I'll replace the bolts for new ones.

best thing is if you decide to work with as many parts as you have right now and build a nice engine or if you don't upgrading parts, such as those rods. they will work fine and so will the stock crank if it's balanced. but if you decide to go with a w120 or higher cam you will go into the higher rpm zone and that's when you'd be better off with a c/w crank and bigger valves etc.

Well for now I will stay ine the mild "thing". W110, 35.5x32mm valves with the 040 heads, stock rods, balanced crank, if I can afford it I'll have it counterweighted have to ask the price). If I upgrade any of these details I'd have to upgrade all the others and other things too... will keep that for another bigger engine later. ;D

I built a mild 1776 many years ago and it was a great daily driver motor that could outrun most modern hot hatches spec as follows

line bored case drilled and tapped for full flow oiling
stock 68 crank
12.5lb flywheel
vw clutch  above all balanced as 1 assembly
cima 90.5 B&P weight matched
engle 120cam
scat lifters
C/moly push rods
berg pump and cover
stock heads 35x32 s/s valves 3angle valve job and a semi hemi cut
cr 7.5:1
40DRLA dellorto carbs
1 5/8 merged header with homemade turbo muffler (probably would have been better with 1 1/2 header)
made 95 hp on the dyno
and ran a 15.7 at the drags was great on the motorway would cruise at 70-80mph all day long

Sounds nice, did you use a couterweighted crank and an additional oil sump ?

there is a lot of combo and possibilities, but if you want my advice, you should ask you first a few questions.  

What do you want to do with your engine? Just cruising or pedal to the metal all the time?

What's your budget? And I mean a real budget that will allow you to build the engine in a few months and not in years.

What part of the work can you handle? Do you plan to build it yourself or have a reputable shop do it for you?

Do you have friends near you that have some experiences in building VW engine and who can give you a hand and advice?

You should have a look to this links, if you don't already read it http://www.flat4ever.com/projet-1776cc-f95.html .

Try to buy your parts from the same person or shop. This way, they know what you already have and can provide you what's best for your engine and needs.

This is what I learned while building my engine.  ;)

Thanks for the advices J-F  ;) I've already seen this link, very instructive.

it was a non c/w crank and i ran a berg 1.5qt sump and a system1 filter

Thanks  ;)

Yes chambers have been flycuted of 2mm, to get a theorical 8,5:1 CR with the 90.5mm cyl. kit. I will check that before doing anything else on the heads. Don't know if I should increase or keep the 8,5 ratio...

(http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5591.0;attach=45092;image)




It's 12mm Zack, you think it's too close of the valves seats ?

Have you checked the deck height already?

No because I don't have the cylinders, pistons and valves already, when I have everything the first thing I'll do is calculate the compression ratio, and do the work to get it at 8,5 if it's necessary.

Another question, did you use an aditionnal oil cooler ? Or orginal oil cooler ? Dog-house maybe ?  ;)

I dont think you need an extra cooler,
unless its really hot where you live..:)
this spring i drove my 2276 without extra cooler,
the temp went up to 105 degrees on the highway,so not super hot
but you have a smaller bore so bigger cooling fins,
so i think if the tune is right you dont need it,
and you can always install one later if you see that the oil is getting too hot..

P

This depends on what you call hot and for how long you keep it there.  I think 105 is too hot, but you can do that if it doesn't stay there long.  I am assuming that is Celsius which is 221 F.  The problem is with the Mag case and if you get it too hot for too long you can ruin it.  With an aluminum case it's not that bad and an aluminum case will run hotter anyway.  I have driven many miles in my air-cooled powered car and I don't like it when it gets near 220F.   The hottest sustained temps I have put up with were 210F.  You get mag too hot and it loses memory and can distort never to return to its original shape or tolerances.  JMO

still i understand what peter means. don't put too much hay on your fork  :D ;)
build the engine, see what it does and you can always add an oil cooler 2 months later or so.
my advice would be to keep it nice and simple and use as many parts as you already have at your disposal so you'll up and running much quicker.
keep it simple, keep it fun ;)

a good option is to use a type 4 cooler in the dog house. They are thicker than type 1 and will cool your motor down a bit.. Also if you run too hot you can swap for a 356 pulley that's smaller and makes your fan spin faster.. Good for engines that don't see too much rpm..

Extrernal cooler makes it a pain in the ass to change the oil of the engine...

Thanks for the tips Peter, Donny and Roland, I will try without external cooler. As the case will be drilled for a full flow, I'll put one later if I need it.  ;)



 ;)

Some ideas about oil and cooling :

Berg full flow
Berg oil pump, 26mm, 30mm, stock size ?
Berg oil pump cover with relief valve
Breather box, connected to valve covers
Additionnal oil sump, what size ?
Dog-house fan housing with type 1 or type 4 oil cooler ?
Welded fan
Berg stock size damper/equalizer pulley
All the engine tin, of course.

I have to think about keeping the heating system or not... ???

Corrected version   ;D  Still need a few advices about red parts.  ;)

Crankshaft
Stock 69mm forged 'F' type crank
8 dowels flywheel
counterweighted/balanced

Rods
Stock VW 311B rods

Heads
Stock 040 VW heads
12mm spark plugs inserts
2mm machined chambers for a 8,5:1 compression rate
35,5x32mm valves

Camshaft
Engle W110
Straight-cut timing gears

Lifters
Stock German

Pushrods
Chromoly

Rockers
Stock rockers, stock ratio 1,1:1
Bolt-up kit

Valves
35.5x32mm stainless steel valves
Single heavy duty springs and heavy duty retainers

Case
VW magnesium case, dual oil relief, line boring, spot faced
German bearings everywhere
German hardware

Pistons and cylinders
90,5mm Mahle kit with forged pistons

Carbs
40IDF or 40 Dellortos

Exhaust
1 1/2 header, still have to think about heating system or not

Fuel
Stock fuel pump
King regulator ?
Bigger diameter fuel lines ?

Ignition
Bosch 009 + blue coil
Silicon plug wires what diameter ?
Spark plugs ?

Oil and cooling
Berg full flow
Berg oil pump, 26mm, 30mm, stock size ?
Berg oil pump cover with relief valve
Breather box, connected to valve covers
Additionnal oil sump, what size ?
Dog-house fan housing with type 1 or type 4 oil cooler ?
Welded fan
Berg stock size damper/equalizer pulley
All the engine tin, of course.

Clutch and Flywheel
Balanced with the crank
200mm flywheel ? Lightweighted ?
Clutch ?

stock fuel pump and stock fuel lines.
8mm silicon plug wires
26mm oil pump, no relief valve
1.5qt sump, any will do; scat, empi, GB, or an oldschool racetrim, treuhaft etc.
type 1 oil cooler.
lightened 200mm flywheel
go with a good stock pressure plate and daikin clutch.

to keep it simple and fun ;)

i don't have all the answers, i'm only putting my 2 cents in.

Thx Diederick  ;)

I'm a little bit afraid of that 2mm fly cut of yours heads.
when using not machined case on cylinder connect sides and 69mm crank and OEM VW conrods and 90,5 non stroaker pistons with oem cyl. Heads you'll get about 9:1 CR it's why more often the semi hemi fly cut is being done to lower the compression.
I've got 1776 made of junk with OEM heads that have been semi hemi fly cut to get about 54cc in the chamber. Than after a season I fly cut the heads down by 1mm which gave me aporx 9'ish : 1 CR.
I would recon that You measure the cc's in yours heads and put together the case with barrels and pistons to measure the deck and than you should make a move on the heads, not before :)
Measure, measure, measure... :D

I will measure everything when I get all the parts  ;) It's the inside of the chambers that have been machined, not the "face" of the heads.

You mean 1,5 US qt sump (0,69 liter) or 1,5 liters sump ?  ;)

Version #3  ;D

Crankshaft
Stock 69mm forged 'F' type crank
8 dowels flywheel
counterweighted/balanced

Rods
Stock VW 311B rods

Heads
Stock 040 german VW heads
12mm spark plugs inserts
2mm machined chambers for a 8,5:1 compression ratio
35,5x32mm valves

Camshaft
Engle W110
Straight-cut timing gears

Lifters
Stock German

Pushrods
Stock length, chromoly

Rockers
Stock rockers, stock ratio 1,1:1
Bolt-up kit
Swivel feet adjusters

Valves
35.5x32mm stainless steel valves
Single heavy duty springs and heavy duty retainers

Case
VW german magnesium case, dual oil relief, line boring, spot faced
German bearings everywhere
Stock german hardware

Pistons and cylinders
90,5mm Mahle kit with forged pistons

Carbs
40IDF or 40 Dellortos

Exhaust
1 1/2 header, still have to think about heating system or not

Fuel
Stock fuel pump
Stock fuel lines
King filter/regulator ?


Ignition
Bosch 009 + blue coil
8mm silicon plug wires
What type of spark plugs ?

Oil and cooling
Berg full flow
Berg 26 mm oil pump
Maybe Berg oil pump cover with relief valve if needed
Breather box, connected to valve covers
1,5 additionnal oil sump
Dog-house fan housing with type 1 oil cooler
Welded fan
Berg stock size damper/equalizer pulley
All the engine tin, of course.

Clutch and Flywheel
Balanced with the crank
200mm flywheel, lightweighted
200mm pressure plate, 200mm clutch disc
Stock clutch hardware ?

Misc. parts
Stock generator, with stock pulley ?
Stock starter

on your current version, use NGK B6HS plugs, no need for regulator with stock pump, stock 8mm clutch bolts will work, CB performance sells OEM VW generator pulley (don't use aftermarket), you can use SR17 'autostick' starter in place of stock starter if need be.
I don't care for the 110 cam, never have, even in mild applications, unless carburetion is limited to something like ICT Webers or baby Dellortos. Even with Kadrons a little more aggressive camshaft works great. With your 40mm Weber or Dellorto, my choice would be Engle W120 or Web Cam 110. It will still run very smoothly off idle, pull crisply down low, but will widen your powerband up on top and make your motor a heck of a lot more fun to drive. I've done a few 1679/1776 with 110 Engle and they all felt so limp and asthmatic. They ran smoothly but weren't a big improvement over the stock cam. With the 120 or the Web 110 you'll need to set your heads up with a light dual spring. Your motor will have so much more soul to it with a little more cam.
have fun, otherwise sounds like a great street screamer.
Jim

Thanks Jim  ;) I will try to use as much german or OEM parts where I'll use stock parts.

The Engle 120 seems fine too, with a little more duration than the Engle 110 and almost the same lift, it could expands the range of use of the engine.

Can I use the 120 with the following parts ?
Stock rockers 1,1:1 ratio (with Berg bolt-up kit)
Stock German lifters
Chromoly pushrods
Berg single or dual springs with chromoly retainers

Hi,
I would even use light dual springs as suggested by Jim.

My 1776 even had a W120 later W125 and stock size valves. Worked nice.
I would try out the HD aluminium pushrods, not so noisy as the CroMo`s.

Things I would cahnge:
When you really want to go with stock lifters they need to be blued/hardened othersise they will fail and make noise.
Why not go with some other lifters? Scat/Empi will work for that combo and are much lighter.
Rise compression to about 9-9,5
No need for an regulator cover with an 26mm pump unless you want to drive in cold wintermonths. Than you need it.
Welded fan? What revs you are after?

ran my 120 cam'd 1776 with

S/S valves,
engle dual springs,
stock rockers with berg elephant feet adjusters ,
molly push rods,
scat lifters

never had a problem but it was a bit rattly due to the pushrods so Felix/DFL's suggestion of using HD aluminium pushrods would quiet things down a little on that front

are you planning on running a C/W crank? if not then I ran my stock balanced motor to 5500rpm when I was feelling frisky ;) and it did see 6500rpm at the track when I was trying to get my times down (I only did about 6 runs) max torque on my combination was at about 3000rpm and max power was at 5500rpm sorry but I can't just put my hands on the dyno sheet but I spent a day at JMR when I built it trying different stuff but couldn't get the power past 95hp but it was a very low compression set up  :)

 ;) Thanks !
Yes I will have a C/W crank.



 ;) Thanks
I will indeed use sometimes the car in winter, even maybe the car would stay for the night outside and have to start early in the morning with temp near -10°C. I will put one, just for safety, that won't change anything for the oil system ?

About light dual springs, where to find some ? I only saw HD single springs or HD dual springs as the Berg ones, or Engle.

Bugpack 4046 duals will work

Thanks Jim  ;)

What's the point in buying c/w 69 crank? If I was to spend money on a c/w crank, I wouldn't buy a 69 mm one. Bigger ones cost the same, don't they?
In addition, there is a lot of people using stock German cranks that have no issues caused by lack of counterweighting.
Plus, I trust an original VW crank more then an aftermarket one. Waste of money IMHO. But I can be wrong.

Stroker crank cost the same, but if I go for a huge strocker engine it will imply more machining to the case, replacing the heads and big work on it (valves, combustion chambers, porting) bigger carbs, etc... and that's a lot of $$$

I agree. This is why I haven't said "huge stroker". I was thinking about something smaller*. And probably even this can lead to some additional work.
On the other hand, when I measured the deck height of my engine for the first time, it came up to be over 3 mm. I had to have the cylinders cut and it would probably be easier for me to assembly this engine with a small stroker crank. But this is probably just an exception and definitely not a rule.


*or - on the other hand - a stock crank

For now I will keep it at 69x90,5  ;) (maybe after, I'll build a strocker engine with all the good parts that come with).
I want use the german VW forged crank I have and ask how much it cost to have it counterweighted in a vw shop. I also know people that work on Alpine and Renault Gordini engine that may couterweight it for a cheap price.
And yes first thing to do is to buy the cylinders kit and measure the CR.

My two cents for what it's worth...

1776
Counterweighted crank
Lightened flywheel
Stock valve ported heads
Heavy duty single springs with HD aluminium pushrods
Engle 100
8:1
Heater boxes with standard 1 3/8" header
Kadrons or even better, Dellorto 36DRLA's

That's close to what I had last, except with 1.25 rockers and stock flywheel (non-lightened).  Pushrods were steel set to loose zero.  Semi hemi chambers in the heads.  GREAT highway motor and tons of fun to drive around town, too...  I won't lie, though, my allegiances lie with my new 2017 build.  Can't wait to experience big valve, big cam and big carb goodness. ;D

I have some comments to make, after kind of following your post Nico. I know from many of the posts in this thread, you're after a "mild" road engine, and I think you may be thinking "mild"="driveable", which kind of leaves it up to the guy that's going to drive the car. Meaning how tolerant the guy is and his threshold for "driveable" and "not driveable". Have you already purchased your carburetion?
I will share some experience with you, some in my own car and some not, but where I was involved with motors.

my first self built motor was 87 x 69, CW'td 69 crank,12lb flywheel, 041 VW heads, 9.0:1, Engle VZ25 (.470 x 256(?)* @ .050"/286adv), dual 36DRLA w/ 30mm venturies, 009, standard "non merge" header with Turbo muffler under RH fender. While you may believe the VZ25 cam was too radical for this displacement and that I had a time bomb on my hands, it wasn't. Prior to dual 36mm carbs I had one center-mounted 36DRLA and it was pretty wild, as far as idle, power off cam, etc. It would idle no lower than 1400rpm, and it was picky until 4000. That was with 36 single 2bbl. Once I went to dual DRLA's the engine gained everything it didn't have before down low. It would now idle very smoothly @ 1000rpm. It would stand more ignition advance. It would pull solidly off idle, and run cleanly through to 6500. This was my only car at the time, I was 17-18 years old. It was driven to school/work and all around California. The key to making the cam work in this motor was the carburetion… 1 throat per cylinder.
When I was in college, I knew a few friends, one posts here @ stealth67VW, this was in mid 1990’s. His only ride was his ’67 Bug, he built a 90.5 x 69 with stock valved, ported VW heads (at first, later he went to big valves), Engle 125, I think either high 8’s compression or low 9:1, and 44mm Webers. I drove this car, and went for many rides in it and it was completely driveable! There were no dead spots in the power band, it just came off idle and screamed to 7000+. It got somewhere around 25mpg with him commuting in it. It was one of the nicest 1776’s I can remember, because not only was it very fast, but because it was reliable, and docile when it needed to be. Around same time, while working @ Buggy House, we had a young girl bring her Karmann Ghia, a white 1966 coupe, in for a motor. Based on talking to her about what she expected and wanted to use the car for, we built a 90.5 x 69 with 041 VW heads, Engle 120, 8.5:1 Weber 44’s and merged 1-5/8 header with turbo tuck muffler. This had to be and still is the nicest, smoothest 1776 I can remember. It was almost as fast as stealth’s motor, but quieter and even smoother to drive. The young girl wanted something that she could commute in back and forth to university in, some of it involved climbing long grade on freeways. She was really really happy once we gave the car back to her, and when she came in for services, she always thanked us for making her car run the way it did.
Lastly I will bring up my old friend SODA’s first, and sweetest hot rod motor he built. It was a pretty bad ass, but small cc street motor he stuck in his ’65 stock Bug. It was 88 x69 (1679cc), 8.4:1, Web Cam 110 (similar to Engle 120), Heads Up Performance 35 x 32mm ported and semi-hemi cut VW heads, Scat 1.25 rockers, 6lb alum flywheel, Weber 40IDF’s on CB tall manifolds and 32mm venturies, and 1-5/8” merged with a Tiger magnaflow. We were worried about this one, we were certain it was going to be total wet sponge under 4000, maybe 4500. But nope, it ran VERY hard right off idle, and yes it was peaky, but in no way was it undriveable. You could easily cruise around under 3000rpm in 4th and stomp it and it would get right with the program and starting pulling, of course, it would have preferred you downshift a gear, because if you did once 4000 came it changed its sound from the deep bassy Weber growl, to a high pitched, feral shriek and you better have your hand on the shifter because in a blink it would flash 7500rpm. This was SODA’s only car at the time (he was borrowing my Vanagon while building the motor and riding his brother’s Norton).
What I’m trying to say is if you’re going to build a hot rod, then build a hot rod and don’t short change yourself because you’re worried about “driveability” due to aggressive cam or larger carburetors. You will always want more, trust me, so why not start as far ahead as you can. I like the stock stroke, they run sweetly. A stroker is just as sweet, just more hard edged and urget. No waiting!
You’ll find more duration helps with cooling too…..

a stock stroke motor with the W-125 Engle cam is not going to run smooth at a low rpm, actually it won't come on power till 3,800 rpm !
it will be a dog untill then, so do not use the 125 on a stock stroke motor

Thanks for all the advices, Zack, bugnut, Ron and Jim  ;)

Yes I want the engine to be driveable, and also relieable, that I can drive when and where I want. For example last month I did a 800km (500 miles) trip in Italy in one day with the stock 1300 F engine. Multiple kind of roads : country-side, highway, mountain passes and seaside roads. I also want it to be able to run a regularity historical rally : driving on little mountain roads 10 hours a day during 2 or 3 days. Sometimes in hot summer, some times in cold winter. I know, I want the perfect and impossible to built engine !  ;D
I'm not after a high-perf engine, I have the opportunity to drag race only one or two times a year, as you say I'm sure one day I will build a strocker engine or try get the most out of a "mouse" engine, but I keep it in my mind for another project I have : a Karmann Ghia (one day, it' will be mine ;D)

The parts I already have are listed here : http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,5591.msg204752.html#msg204752 you can add to this a pair of Weber 40 IDF. I have that so I'll use it.


Diederick here give me the link to this thread about SODA's engine http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,747.0.html that's close to what I'm going to.

Would you use 1,25 rockers or keep 1,1 with the Engle120/Web110 ? I saw on Engle catolog that both can work.
Can I increase the CR up to 9 or keep 8,5 ?

That's why I suggested the combo that I did. BIG improvement over stock, easy to build, simple & inexpensive, good mileage, and much more fun to drive ;) Expect power from idle to just over 5500rpm. Your 40's will work just fine, I'd use 32mm venturies.

You can use 1.25's with the Engle (100, 110, 120, etc.) cam, or the Web 110. But if you're planning on buying new 1.25 rockers, you might as well buy 1.4 rockers since they are the same price and then use a cam that is designed for 1.4's. Your lifter bores will thank you, and you'll end up with more valve lift... but then you'll also need dual springs. As you know, things can snowball out of control quickly!

Yep !  ;D

By the way, what can I use to protect the case while it's waiting for some work, that would be for about 2 or 3 month ? I sprayed WD40 on the crank and rods, but don't know what to use on aluminium heads and mag case.

moistering with wd40 would work but what i think is most important is to tightly wrap the parts with cellophane (transparant kitchen wrap).
in this way you prevent contact with the outside air and water.

If you plan on painting the case just go ahead and do it. If you drench it in WD-40 now, forget about painting it later. It wont stick!

Thanks guys, I will paint the case later, so I will just wrap it.

I built a 1776 for my ex that was similar goal. Weber 40IDF, stock valved but ported VW heads 8.4:1 and Web Cam 218 with stock 1600 rockers on solid shafts, 911 swivel adj, dual Bugapck 4046 springs.
Ran well, but poor fuel mileage. Needed more CR.

Jim, did you get the message I sent you ?  ;)

Version #4   :)

Crankshaft
Stock 69mm forged 'F' type crank
8 dowels flywheel
counterweighted/balanced

Rods
Stock VW 311B rods

Heads
Stock 040 german VW heads
12mm spark plugs inserts
8,5:1 compression ratio
35,5x32mm valves

Camshaft
Engle W120/Web Cam 110
Straight-cut timing gears

Lifters
Scat

Pushrods
Stock length, chromoly or aluminium

Rockers
Stock rockers, stock ratio 1,1:1
Bolt-up kit
Swivel feet adjusters

Valves
35.5x32mm stainless steel valves
Bugpack 4046 dual springs and heavy duty retainers

Case
VW german magnesium case, dual oil relief, line boring, spot faced
German bearings everywhere
Stock german hardware

Pistons and cylinders
90,5mm Mahle kit with forged pistons

Carbs
Webers 40IDF

Exhaust
Heating system will stay, with Berg, CSP or custom made heating boxes.
1 1/2" header is ok or should I go bigger ? (1 5/8" ?)

Fuel
Stock fuel pump
Stock fuel lines
(King fuel filter-regulator maybe later if needed)

Ignition
Bosch 009 + blue coil
8mm silicon plug wires
NGK B6HS spark plugs

Oil and cooling
Berg full flow
Berg 26 mm oil pump
(Berg oil pump cover with relief valve maybe later if needed)
Breather box, connected to valve covers
1,5 additionnal oil sump
Dog-house fan housing with type 1 oil cooler
Welded fan
Berg stock size damper/equalizer pulley
All the engine tin, of course.

Clutch and Flywheel
Balanced with the crank
200mm flywheel, lightweighted
200mm pressure plate, 200mm clutch disc
Stock clutch hardware

Misc. parts
Stock generator with stock pulley
Stock starter/SR17 'autostick' starter

loose the Scat lifters.  I have had two cams go flat both with Scat lifters and the were pitted badly.  I have had no luck with them at all.  I am now running Udo Becker tool steel lifters.  I do have an old set of Weisman (SP) lifters that I may use on a future project, but never again will I use Scat lifters.  Sorry...

I read Berg recommands using stock style lifters, they have this http://www.geneberg.com/cat.php?cPath=6_171  ???

I think a cam that big will go to waste with stock, unported heads. The heads are where the power is made, invest there!

Sure it would be better for the power, but for this engine I prefer stay soft with stock size valves, though heads will be re-worked a little.

Then I suggest staying "soft" with the cam as well. The 120 is designed to work in a rpm range where the stock heads are not. You don't need big valves for good head flow. Just my two cents ;)

Yep but I guess it will "pump" more than a W100 or W110 to get the most out of my cheap heads (though I will work on the intakes, valves and valves seats etc... but keep stock size valves and a reasonable CR).

Need a few more advices for my project.

I think I will go with some Berg lifters http://www.geneberg.com/cat.php?cPath=6_171

Also I want to keep the heating system, I will use CSP, Berg or home-made bigger diameter and free-flow heating boxes like this : http://www.csp-shop.de/cgi-bin/cshop2/front/shop_main.cgi?func=anzeige&wkid=22166642293&rub1=Exhaust%20%2F%20Heating&rub2=Exhaust%20System-Modified%2CJ-Tubes%20%2F%20Heat%20Exchangers
(I think it will be home-made because that's a lot of $$$).
What's the correct header diameter to use 1 1/2" or 1 5/8" ?

And something I didn't think before are the manifolds maybe I will go with CSP or CB ones.

Stock heater boxes & a standard 1 3/8" header will be fine since you're sticking with stock valves.

Thanks Zack, that would save money, but will it be enough with the W120 ?

Now this is an interesting question, because in your combo (taking into account the size of the engine, stock valves, 1 3/8 header) it is this camshaft that seems to "stand out". Too bad I don't know the answer  ;)

Yep, considering a cam with more duration and lift that will provide more intake and more exhaust even with stock valves, that would be logical to have a larger header... ...or not ;D.

SODA ran his stock valve motor to 7100rpm

he also ran 1-5/8" exhaust, sorry no heat.

For my engine 1 1/2" is ok I think, I really need to the have heating system so I will go with these heating boxes that are cheaper than CSP and Berg ones http://www.csp-shop.de/cgi-bin/cshop2/front/shop_main.cgi?func=det&wkid=42236323655&rub1=Exhaust%20%2F%20Heating&rub2=Exhaust%20System-Modified%2CJ-Tubes%20%2F%20Heat%20Exchangers&artnr=14002b&pn=0&sort=0&all=

I would go with an Engle 110 cam.  I had a 1776 with a 110 and stock valve size heads running 42 DCNFs and it was a great combination.  I drove it everywhere.  Nice wide power band with good top end.  It is an iconic cam for this size engine...

You are on that borderline between 1 3/8" and 1 1/2". I'd go smaller to try and keep torque up, you're not going to have much of it with the 120 in a small motor. Plus, factory heater boxes work a LOT better than the aftermarket J tube type.

You should ask Nicolas about the 1776 he is selling in the classified.
Dynoed at 115hp, strong and reliable runner. (It's the engine he did the trip (and race it!) to scc back in 2008).

The way you plan to use it, you should think about torque. Vintage rallies, freeway driving and daily commuting are more about torque and driving between 2.500 and 4.500rpm.

I don't have firs hand expirience with that, but my friend from beetle club in Croatia has a 1776ccm motor with stock crank (non CW), stock heater boxes, CSp Super Competition exhaust and stock 35,5x32 heads and Engle W120...
He is driving it for years with no problems so far...

NICO86,

The biggest problem I see with most first time engine builders is they over-cam the motor.  A 110 Engle will give you everything you need for that motor. I have a 1915 driver motor I put a 110 cam in with mildly massaged heads and it gets 30+ mpg on the freeway and has more power than necessary for street use. It is dependable, idles nicely and works well.  The 120 is a cam a lot of us used in the early days for bracket racing. I've had 48 IDAs on a motor with a 120...

You will be happier with a 110 in your motor combination.  Your valve train and other things will like you better too.  The key is the combination and over-camming a motor just makes it less efficient.  All your power with that motor is bottom end and a slight mid range improvement. Like ZACH said, unless you do some head work there is no need to stick a 120 ENGLE on it.  You are just wasting the lift and duration as the heads will be the limiting factor.  I've done a lot of mildly ported stock valve heads that worked well with a slightly larger cam but I've always stayed mild on cam grinds if the other parts don't allow the cam it's full potentiol.

JMO

Rick M

First, thanks for all your experiences and advices guys.  ;)

Another way I forgot (I have a lot to learn!) would be to play with the ratio of the rockers ?

If you're going to build a motor from scratch and you're planning on using ratio rockers, use 1.4's and a cam that is designed for them since 1.25's cost about the same as 1.4's. 1.4 cams are easier on your lifter bores, too. BUT, there is no sense in giving a small valve an immense amount of lift. As I remember, it is not recommended that the lift exceed 35% of the valve diameter. So in that case, a 35.5mm intake valve would take a max lift of .489". Anything over .430", maybe .450" (max) lift should use dual springs, also.

So for example with a W110, the lift is 0.392" :
with 1,1:1 rockers that's 0.431"
with 1,25 that's 0,490"
with 1,4 that's 0.549"

Yes, but the 110 isn't designed to be used with 1.4's.

Yes I read that.

V26 Engle if you run 1.4 or if you want milder powerband, FK65

FK65 was a bit of a meek choice we used in a 88 x 69 with Denham 40 x 35 heads, customer was happy, but I regretted using it.

Thanks Jim  ;)

I used the FK65 in a 1776, stock valve ported heads, 8:1, 42 Specials, in my fastback. It was great highway motor, it suited that heavy car well I thought. A bug is lighter and can get away with more cam, IMO.

One thing that is related to the engine : I have to send an oil pressure gauge for checking and calibrating with the sender, some of you had worked or know about this company : http://www.nhspeedometer.com/ ?

 ;)

i had them carry out some work. convert my 6 cyl 911 tacho to 4 cyl. i think that came out fine. but supposedly they recalibrated the tachometer and prevent the needle from bouncing around. but there's no real proof for that. all for $180. so, that makes me question their integrity...

Thanks Died  ;) They were fast or it took a longtime ?

including shipping back and forth it took about 4 to 6 weeks?
i wasn't that happy though, the needle is still bouncing around like crazy. i know it's a common issue with the old porsche tachometers. but it makes me wonder what the heck i paid the extra cash for?

Ok thanks Died  ;)

A few more questions :

- What do you think about the CB update kit for Weber IDF carbs ? http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=508

- Do you use OEM thermostat with fanshroud flaps ? I read some remove the thermostat and block the flaps open, and other say it's better to keep the stock system.

I like the CB update kits. But they will increase the size of the venturi to 34mm which would be too large for your 35.5 intake valves (there is a re-occuring theme here ;)). The factory thermostat allows the engine to warm up properly, I advise using it.

ok with Zach for the thermostat , you can use it , it's good for a daily driver engine....

Thanks Zach and Stef  ;)

I also recommend using the thermostat, because I don't have one. I doesn't fit with my exhaust and I didn't have time to solve this problem when I was assembling the engine.
I regret that and I will try to find a solution. It's not just that takes longer for the engine to worm up. The problem is that in some conditions, the oil temperature drops and the engine is to COLD.

As for the CB update kit, it seems strange that CB came up with a solution better than an original design. Sure, CB is one of those companies that try to develop products and I respect them for that (it's rare in our hobby), but still, research and development teams in leading carburetor manufacturers like Webber and Dellorto should be.... more experienced in this matter. Why didn't they adopt the solution, if it is that good?

Who knows... I know IDF's are notorious for plugging idle jets though, and the update kits help the problem.

As I remember the same solution with horizontal discharge tubes were in zenith carbs?

I used the ubdate kit with my dellortos with really god resoults on the street, streep and dyno.
The jest doctor which is sold with the kit does its job grate as Zach says.

Thanks Tom  ;)

No problem. The DRLA kit which I have came with 1.5 main jet and 165 air correction tube.
If you have standadr valves  (35,5x32) you'l have a little bit hassitation between progression and main circuit during typical road driving (which can be limited with propper carb adjustement but you'll feel it even though). During 1/4 mile You won't notice it. With bigger valves 40 up the ride will be a hell of a funn :D
Just be patient with card adjustement.
good luck
cheers
Tom.

 ;)

Another random question, wich kind of quality air filter can I use ?

I like the look of the Flat4... but I'm always wary with Flat4 stuff...
(http://www.csp-shop.de/cshop/images/artikel/detail/23410.jpg)

...or K&N ??
(http://www.csp-shop.de/cshop/images/artikel/detail/10556.jpg)

 ;)

kn looks beter

I like the look of these 2 engines (Philip's one on the first picture, don't remember for the second pic). Flat4 filters have a great look, but do they work fine ?

Why can't you buy Flat 4 filters, use only the housings and then put some K&N filtering elements inside? Especially that, as far as I remember, the complete K&N filters for IDFs/DRLAs are quite expensive and - on the other hand - I would be surprised if you couldn't buy the filtering part separately. Probably not in a Beetle shop, but the one that offers K&N filters for general public, "tuners" etc.
I share your concern about the quality of air filters that we can usually buy for Beetles. I drive quite a lot on different kinds of roads and some of those filters just don't work. I am not surprised - a lot of people in our hobby underestimate the importance of air filters (or just don't care - take a look into the topic about the filters for IDAs) and for them it's the price that counts more.

I know a Belgian guy sells alu aircleaners with k&n filters. they look really nice imo.
(http://www.german-performance-parts.be/alu%20luchtfilter2.jpg)
http://www.german-performance-parts.be/ (http://www.german-performance-parts.be/)

Clean engine ! 8)




Interesting things there, thanks for the link.  ;)

Just saw the price of the Flat4 stuff  :o so I guess I can't be wrong with K&N that cost half the price : http://www.jegs.com/i/K%26amp%3BN/599/56-1170/10002/-1

I will possibly try to made custom old-looking cleaners with K&N elements, cheap air cleaner bodies and some grill.

A few last things to figure out...

- Can I use stock nut crank pulley ? (it will be Berg EQ or same style)
- What paint can I use for the case ? HT paint ? Need to put it on an oven ? It will be black or grey, I still have to decide...
- And another stupid question I want to be sure about : no paint on the heads right ?

my 1776 with DRLA's and oval K&N filters
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/streetvw/img037-1.jpg)

my brothers 1776 with IDF's and square K&N filters
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/streetvw/11.jpg)

both looked good IMHO but it's all down to taste

Thanks for the pics  ;)

 ;)

- yes, i wouldn't know why not.
- VHT case paint, like felix used. oven or not doesn't seem to matter.
- why would you want to paint the heads? they will also get hotter than the case...

Thanks Died  ;)

i was in a rush, hence the short post.
if you want you can also get a pulley bolt that lets you use the 3/8" ratchet directly:

(http://www.paruzzi.com/images/1967.jpg)

but since it might be fabricated by empi, sourcing an original one may be wiser.

if you're having difficulties locating VHT case paint, try a (local) motorcycle shop, preferably a Harley Davidson (enthusiast) shop.
or try eBay if there are any french seller for that stuff.

good luck!

Thanks Died  ;)

Here's a JayCee one with a nice price : http://www.vwparts.net/JC1017.html

If a stock nut works with a EQ style pulley I will use a german one. Maybe I don't need the Berg EQ damper with my engine, I'll maybe use a more classic aluminium one (CB or Bugpack).

I've found VHT paint in England there : http://www.cbsonline.co.uk/paint-82-c.asp since I can't order it in the US.

(http://www.cbsonline.co.uk/ekmps/shops/carbulder/images/pnenbk.jpg)

I found this exhaust system, what do you think ? Seems to be the only merged header with a stock size.

http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=1634

(http://www.cbperformance.com/catalogimages/3674.jpg)

It's been used here : http://www.cbperformance.com/Mar2007.asp

(http://www.cbperformance.com/images/FA/Mar07_1a.jpg)
(http://www.cbperformance.com/images/FA/Mar07_1b.jpg)

I thought you were retaining your heater ???   Also, most merged headers don't allow for a thermostat to be fitted.

Yes I keep the heating boxes, I was thinking about mounting this CB header without the J-tubes ??? (cut and welded a little to fit on the heating boxes). So I could keep heating and thermostat/flaps system.

I'm currently runing like this on my stock engine, but with a non-merged stock size header.

I love that little 1-3/8" merged, but it would be tons cooler if it worked with heat. 

The hardest part is to have both bottom tubes to fit with the heaters outputs. It seems that the J-tubes connections are far under the cylinders compared to standard headers.

That sounds like a lot of work/money for a little header. Adding heater boxes would make the 1&3 pipes longer, so it wouldn't be equal length anymore. Some proper 40x35.5 heads would solve a lot of problems :) Or choosing a smaller cam ;)

How about these?
http://cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=550

Cam will be smaller  ;) I'm almost done with choosing the parts, I will start buying it after Christmas/new year. I will see later for the header, I have a lot to do first !

Yes, thanks for the link  ;)

Guys, what's the difference between the Equalizer and the Achiever Berg pulleys ?  ;)

Equalizer weighs more.

 ;)

Hey Nico, the Equalizer is about 6lbs. and the Achiever is about is about 3 1/2lbs. I've always ran the Equailizer, right now I'm running a NOS Santana Pulley, but going back to my Achiever. according to Berg, it equalizes the weight from front to back and gives you stronger launches at the line cause of the momentum. Hope this helps.

Ted

Thanks for the infos Ted.

On a mild project like mine, is it usefull to use a heavy equalizer pulley ? Or a more classic billet pulley is better ?

I look at it in a realistic way, if you going to run it at the track, and want to compete, I'd say yes, but if your more a street guy, then yes, a lighter one. Unless you just want to run a Berg pulley, thats your choice. Myself, I like the look, but also see the track once in awhile. My motor is built more for performance, maybe to much, buts thats just me. I like POWER.  ;D
Ted

Thanks Ted  ;)

If you're running a stock non c/w crank and a lightened flywheel it's not a bad idea to use one.

Will be fine yes  ;)

Need some infos about DPR flywheels, I'm interested with the 12 Volt 200mm 12lbs, 8 Dowelled, Balanced $120 here : http://www.dprmachine.com/Html%20Files/flywheels_1.htm

They start working with german VW flywheel ? Lightweigthed to 12lbs is ok ?

I don't know if they start with a German flywheel but I'm curious to find out as I need one for my car.

Yes, he does use the German flywheels. I'm using his crank and flywheel set-up on my current motor that has been wedgemated. Very good work. I don't think he likes the Chinese stuff. German only.

Ted

Great, I think I will get one from him, it's a good price. French VW shops usually lightweight flywheels to 5.5 or 5.6kg, so I guess 12lbs (=5.44kg) is good.

Also need help with the clutch.

What I'm thinking about :

- Stock mounting hardware : cross shaft, clutch bearing and bearing clip etc...

- Daikin 200mm super disc http://www.vwparts.net/AC141150.html

- Kennedy 200mm pressure plate http://www.vwparts.net/KEPPSIPLATE.html but what model 1700Lbs, 2100Lbs, 2600Lbs, 3000Lbs ??
  Or a 200mm stock pressure plate ? http://www.vwparts.net/311141025EBR.html but I don't know about the quality. For $30 more I'd rather get a Kennedy.




And a Happy New Year to the Loungers  8)

No more than 1700lb, but stock would work ok for your combo, too. I chose the 1700lb in aluminium because I wanted a free revver 8) But it is much more expensive.

Thanks Zach. A stock Sachs or LUK is $190, so a Kennedy 1700lbs will be fine.

Wow, my aluminium one was only a little over $200...

There are cheaper clutch kits but the brand is Empi... so I guess it's from China. There is also Amortex that's cheap, that's a co-branding with Sachs but it's made in Brazil.

Yes, I agree with Zach a stock or a 1700lb Kenndy at the most with a Daiken disk will be more than efficient. Cool set-up so far!

Ted

Thanks Ted  ;)

Lifters will be SLR Wiesmann : http://www.vwparts.net/SLR24.html with joined oil grooves.

Good choice. Did you talk to Steve about a cam?

Yep he gives me a few infos  ;). He said the W110 is fine with the rest of the engine specs and 40IDF, it will fall in between the XV280 and the XV290.

nice lifters! good price too

I've planned a W110 with 1.25:1 rockers, with HD single or dual valves springs ?

Single springs are fine. I would use the Berg or CB ones.

With the extra lift of 1.25's I suggest using duals. If your heads aren't ported, you wont be taking advantage of the extra .060" anyway. Just keep it simple, single springs and 1.1 rockers.

Thanks Sander and Zach.  ;)
Heads will have a little work done but not ported. 1.1 or 1.25 doesn't seem to change things a lot or worth machining the heads for dual springs. :-\ All dual springs need the heads to be machined ?

Yes. Keep it simple, 110, single HD's, and stock rockers ;)

nico, you might wanna give the porting a go following the bill fisher book or so.
there's a lot to be gained, and a lot to be missed if you don't.

Dual or single springs means nothing, spring pressure does. If you can get the same pressure out of one you are fine. Using lightweight followers and/or push rods will also help the lifter get around that aggressive cam. 

Thank you guys.  ;)

This cam-rockers-ratio-lift-spring-calculating thing is giving me headache  :P :D

Think I will maybe wait a few more weeks and have the big work on the heads done by someone who knows : porting, chambers and valve seats. But I will stay with stock size valves to keep it the more simple.

Then for the rockers it will be 1.1 with single springs or 1.25 if I can find matching single springs (or I'll have heads machined for duals as they will be worked)  ??? ???

I bought this today...  :D

(http://ii.alatest.com/product/600x400/c/2/Soehnle-66100-0.jpg)


And this...

(http://img-europe.electrocomponents.com/largeimages/R463303-01.jpg)

A question about the 009 distributor and blue coil.

All the new parts I've found are from Brazil. Is it good to use the brazilian-made we can find new ? Or is it better to choose german parts ? There's also an Empi 009 but I know what to do with this...  :P

I was possibly thinking of getting a new brazilian blue coil and ask Glenn Ring for a german 009...

I'm wondering if I'll order a crank at DPR or not  ??? ??? It seems that having mine 8-dowelled and balanced  in France will cost more than a complete DPR one...

your crank will need to get balanced with the flywheel anyway, DPR crank or not. still buying a DPR crank would be the better choice if you'd want to do an update on the engine later.

I think that is a very wise decision.

ore just go for a 78 when you are at  it   ;D

Yeah I could but not this time  ;D

78 would be a pain in the ass to build with A pistons. A 74 on the other hand would be quite easy... How does a 1904 sound? ;)

I received it today, and what I can say is don't buy this piece of cr** ! It's unstabilized even on a glass table, the tare is not precise and it only reads 0g, no 0,0g or 0,00g... >:(

Someone knows where can I find a good one ?  ???

If you plan to use it to weight your pistons and rods, you don't need a more accurate reading than 1g. And to make things more simple, you can order your piston and rods already blue printed.
For your ignition, I think a good used original 009 (Jo Clifford have two for sale in the classifieds right) or a rebuild 019. Put an electronic ignition in it with a matching coil (>3Ohms primary resistance).
For the crank, a DPR is 280€ and a 4340 is 345€ from slideperformance for example. DPR are good stuff as they use a oem cranckshaft.And they are fully controlled..
A 4340 74mm is 349€ thought  :D
Something I would say is to buy your parts locally. If you buy parts from everywhere and then ask a local shop to help you to build your engine, I think they will just told you to ask where you buy your parts .  ???

Thanks JF I will check that.  ;) I tried it today with some bolts and washers and I find it very unprecise.  :-\


Well they don't really care were I get the parts from, because they usually work on Renault and Gordini's engine.  ;)

Need help for the crank mounting kit, I know I'll need this : http://www.vwparts.net/111105223.html

But about this ?
http://www.vwparts.net/113105241A.html
http://www.vwparts.net/BP4000-72.html
http://www.vwparts.net/BP4034.html

Would be great to have the list of shims/gasket/gear for mounting the crank  ;)

You don't need that. It's for a flanged crank/flywheel ;)

Ok thanks  ;) I looked the technical guide so I need this :

http://www.vwparts.net/111105223.html + http://www.vwparts.net/113105241A.html + http://www.vwparts.net/BP4034.html + the pulley seal (or it's just for sand-seal pulley) ??

A few more newbie/stupid questions  ;D

I'm starting ordering parts, here are the last things I need help with :

1. About copperheads gaskets, do I need it ? Are they included in the 1300/1600 engine gasket kit ? I see there are 0.040" and 0.060"...

2. To mount the crank in the case I need : bearings kit of course + brass gear + oil slinger + flywheel seal + this http://www.vwparts.net/BP4034.html  ??? No seal behind the crank pulley right ?

3. About the seals between cylinders and case (don't know the name in english) the one in the 1300/1600 engine gasket kit are ok ? Or I need other seals for the 90,5 cylinders ?

4. The correct Mahle 90,5 kit I need is the A forged piston-cyl. kit : http://www.vwparts.net/BP4576-16X.html ?

Here's a little advice from my recent experiences in engine building: they sell two different gasket kits, one of which includes the main flywheel seal.  Get this one, as it will save you the aggravation of realizing you are lacking all the needed seals to seal up your short block.  Some outfits are selling just the gasket kits without the main seal so that you have to spend more money with them... weak, IMO.  Don't forget the cam plug, too! ;D

..

That's the kind of thing I don't want to happen : forget a little gasket or part in the middle of the building, then I'll have to order it and wait for days before it arrives.  :(

Does this kit includes all the hardware I need to mount the crank :  http://shop.hoffmann-speedster.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=395_1732_1746&products_id=1149&language=us  ??


(http://shop.hoffmann-speedster.com/catalog/images/images/produkte/010/010-0160.jpg)

Up guys these are the last things I need to know, then I can start collecting parts.  ;)

Yup, that should do it. You'll need a pulley bolt, and flywheel bolt as well, of course ;)

Thanks Zach.  ;)

You don't need copper head gaskets. And you also don't need the paper gaskets under the cylinders, some high temp silicone works a treat ;)

Ok great  ;)

I'm looking to crank/case bearings...

If there'are no Kolbenschmidt, Mahle are ok ?

About the cam bearings, is it better to use double thrust bearings http://www.vwparts.net/111198541HD.html or standard ones ar fine http://www.vwparts.net/111198541.html ?

Mahle is ok, Kolbenschmidt is better. Whatever you get, make sure the split bearing is steel backed!! I'd go for the double thrust.

Ok thanks  ;)

Seems that Kolbenschmidt  bearings are unavailable for the moment. I asked several shops about it : the best quality they have is Mahle, Kolbenschmidt are out of stock most of the time, and they don't know when they will get them.  ???

What do you think, Mahle are still ok for a mild engine ?

As long as the center split bearing is steel backed, yes.

There is a post on the other forum, about bearings and steelback, there is also Silverline Bearings that are steelback and sound good. Below is a link to the Samba on Silverline Bearings. Am seriously thinking about a set for my spare motor I'm refreshing.

Ted

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1071176

I hear that AJ Sims is coming out with bearings also, sounds very impressive. Jason Foster (DKP) will be running a set from AJ, according to the post.


Ted

Thanks guys I will ask if Mahle are steel backed or not, steel backed means this ?

[attachment=1]

Ted by the way, what is the other forum ? The Samba ? Cal-look.com ? UAC ? I sometimes read this and wonder what it could be  ;D.

Hey Nico, it's the Cal-Look Forum.  ;)

Ted

 ;) I've found the thread you mentionned. So it seems that now even Kolbenschmidt is starting to produce crappy stuff...  >:(

Only the center main bearing is steel backed. The one that is in two halves. It is noticeably heavier than the rest of the bearings.

Thanks Zach, I didn't find a correct translation to french for "steel backed".

About spark plugs, Bosch W7AC/NGK B6HS or W8AC ??

...and a few questions keep coming as I'm making the list of parts to buy...  :P

> About valves, Berg ones  http://www.geneberg.com/cat.php?cPath=6_184_2777  or Bugpack stainless-steel  http://www.vwparts.net/BP4045.html ??

...aaaaaaand a third thing...  ;D

Someone can give me an e-mail address to contact DPR ? I tried from their website past week, but have no reply. Thanks.  ;)

This is what I get, maybe the same you got, I'll call them Monday and get the right one, I'm local to them, I'll get back to you with it.

dpr7149797441@hotmail.com


Ted

i used that email address too, but they never replied to me either.

Yes that's the one that's on their website and I used too.

Got all things figured out and all the infos I need. Ready to order parts. Just need to find a way to contact DPR and to find a VHT paint dealer in europe.

Just one last minute thought : since my heads will go to a machine shop for some little works I will use 1,25 rockers and dual springs with Engle W110. What about 1,4 rockers?? Is that good even with 35.5x32 valves?? Too much (too high rpms for the engine)?? Will it imply many more modification to the rest of the engine?

The 110 isn't designed for 1.4 rockers. Do you have a cam yet?

Not yet, oh yes I will need another cam you're right.  :-\

Keep it simple, Nico. Stock ratio rockers, stock size valves, single HD springs ;)

Yep I have to stop asking myself questions and start working, or I will never have it done  ;D
Just wondering if it could get the engine "less flat", but choosing another cam is boring.

Ok I promise : after that I will stop thinking and start doing something!  :-[ ;D

What about choosing a cam that can work with either 1.1 and 1.25 and 1.4 rockers, like SLR XV series http://www.vwparts.net/SLRCAM.html ??

Then I could try different ratio-rockers/springs if what I have is not satisfying...

go in your garage Nico... , to much question are not good , have a good work  , you can call me if you want .

Yep, you're right Stef! I'd better stick with what was planned. I will call you soon, because I will need infos for the parts that are going to the machine shop.

Parts ordered.. Oh well...  :-\  ;D

Here's what I would do if I was you...

Instead of getting a c/w 69mm crank, spend the extra $130 and get a c/w 74mm for 1904cc. THAT will be good hp for your money! Use the 90.5 "A" pistons that you already have.

Get the XV290 from SLR. Use with your stock heads, stock rockers, and HD single springs.

Drive the thing!!!

A few years down the road when you're getting bored with the power (and you have more money to spend!), rebuild the top end with 94's (cut down to fit in your 90.5 case) and you'll have 2054cc. Get some proper ported 40.35.5 heads, 1.4:1 rockers, and a larger header.

Drive the thing, MUCH faster!! ;D

And with that :

- does the case need to be cleared for the 74mm crank?

- stock 311 rods are ok?

- 40IDF still ok?

- stock heads will need to be ported? Or it will be "fun" to drive even with just "cleaned" intakes?
Because I was thinking with the 1776 to give the heads to a machine shop for porting and machining for dual springs, but I could save this money for a 74mm crank, and do little work on the stock heads myself...

But most of all, will the 1904 be as reliable as the mild road 1776? I don't want to go with a bigger oil pump, bigger oil sump, additional oil cooler... I don't know if it would stick to the use I have of the engine...
??? ???

On the other side it's interesting to have a slightly more powerful engine, that can get higher later...

The case may need to be clearanced slightly, if so you can do it by hand.

Yes, the rods are plenty strong. But the rod caps need to be clearanced- this is where you do your clearancing when using a 74 crank. This can be done easily (carefully) on a belt sander. Balance them afterwards.

40idf's will be fine for both engines. If you want, you can upgrade easily, bigger venturies, or bigger IDF's

It will definitely be fun to drive, even with cleaned up intakes on the stock heads... stuff you can do yourself.

Engine size has little to do with reliability. Quality of the parts, and attention to detail during the build do.

OK, work I can do by myself is important because in France machine shops are quite expensive. So I guess the 1904 "by myself" would be about the same price as the 1776, if can get the 74 crank from DPR at $280 + about $110 for shipping a 28 pounds package with USPS.

And with that I can use the same things that I've planned before for using it as a road engine : 26mm oil pump with full flow, doghouse oil cooler, 200mm clutch with 1700lbs Kennedy plate...??

I guess that with stock 35.5x32mm valves, 8.5 compression ratio, 40IDF, stock size exhaust 1"3/8 (maybe 1"1/2??), and an apropriate cam it would still be a good low/mid range powered engine...

I really need it to accept long drives on small/mountain/countryside roads.

Yes to all of that :)

Ok  ;) Sounds tempting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoqDYcCDOTg

 ;D

(http://www.gifbin.com/bin/1234525508_ben_stiller_-_do_it.gif)

 ;)

Haha!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmUZGdi7Ty4

 :D funny

Even though my girlfriend tries to cheer me up saying that this is not always the case, deep inside I'm convinced that bigger is better  ;)

Does this mean I have to worry when my girlfriend is telling me that the most important thing is not the size, but the way it is used...  ???





  ;) :D ;D

you may have a problem there  ;D

 ;D

Using what I already have (except 69mm crank), and considering all the work done at home (except balancing the clutch) :

> 74mm c/w crank

> stock 311B rods

> SLR XV290 cam

> SLR Wiesmann lifters

> 1.1:1 rockers
Single Berg springs

> 040 heads 35.5x32 valves
8.5:1 CR

> Mahle 90,5mm A cylinder/pistons

> Dual oil relief magnesium case

> 40IDF carbs (maybe CB update kit then)
Berg manifolds
Stock fuel pump

> 26mm oil pump
Full flow
Doghouse oil cooler
Oil sump
Breathing box

> 009 distributor + blue coil

> 1"3/8 exhaust and heaters. Could go 1"1/2? But I have to have heaters.

> Kennedy 1700lbs pressure plate and Daikin 200mm clutch disc


Then later I could take all the time to get perfect heads with bigger valves, bigger carbs, ratio rockers... without starting a new engine from scrap...

STOP! When you order à crank, make sure that you gett à flywheel that is machined for the crank, it will save you €€€!. Use a HD bolt for it, Cb or Berg.

Yep, if I ever get a crank, it would come from DPR with the flywheel, both balanced. The biggest issue is to contact them, I sent them several e-mails but they never replied.

tray brother may what to sell you some parts.

http://www.brothersvwmachineshop.com/parts.htm

Thanks for the link fredy  ;) I have Stef 'Bluestar' looking for a DPR one for me.

Ok I'm decided to go with the 74x90.5  8)

After a few asking and searching, I'm thinking about Steve Long Racing cam and lifters.

> I have to choose between the XV280 or XV290 http://www.vwparts.net/SLRCAM.html , I've already had the info that an Engle W110 would stands in-between these two.

> Lifters will be regrounded and parkerized SLR Weismann http://www.vwparts.net/SLR24.html I will make shure that they are based on the original German parts and not the crappy brazilian stuff made by Mahle nowadays.

> Rockers will be 1.1 with single springs (duals?) since I will run stock heads for the moment.

Nico, I would go with the XV280, since you going with single springs, the cam will have good low end, later you can go bigger with good mid and top end. Good choice Nico with SLR cam and lifters. This is a good start. I did talk to Jose today, finaly,  this is what he gave me as far as e-mail address, looks the same as his web-site, dpr7149797441@hotmail.com. Check it out.

Ted

Thanks Ted, yes it's the same email I have. I will see with Stefan to get one directly in France and save the shipping cost.

So with the XV280 and simple things : 1.1 rockers, single Berg springs, aluminium HD pushrods and properly set and balanced valve train. And with stock size Berg chrome valves.

I will see later (=in a couple of years I guess) for something sharper when the money will allow a pair of good ported 40x35.5 heads. When it will happen I could afford another cam if needed.
I have the opportunity in time, work and money to do this mild engine now. I've finished my studies in January (I was working at the same time during the last years of school, and I kept this job for the moment) and I don't know if the "futur life" would allow the same things. You never know what happens, so I have to do this nowand have fun!

I finally picked-up a used weighing machine for cheap, perfectly working and precise this time.

[attachment=1]



And my dad brought some of his stuff.

[attachment=2]

[attachment=3]

I'd stick with the VX290. You'll have more than enough displacement to give you a solid amount of torque down low. Then, when you make the top end upgrades, the cam will really come into its own, totally waking up the engine ;)

humhum sounds good if it gives the good low and mid range power I want :) And with this (and 1.1 rockers) I can still use single Berg HD springs and aluminium pushrods?

I've had the confirmation that SLR Weismann lifters are made from the good German lifters.  8)

Confirmation from who, Steve? Looking to buy lifters also.

Ted

Got it from Ralph at Vee Dub Parts.

Question : are all DPR crankshafts rectified to the first undersize on main and rod journals? (main=0.25mm and rod=0.25mm) I just want to know if I can order the engine bearings now, or if I'd better wait to have the crank, check it and then get the bearings.

Nico, if your ordering directly from DPR, ask Jose and he'll tell you. also, if it's a 69mm crank, depending on the cores he's getting, it would be .010 under on main's and rod journals. if it's a stroker, .010 under on main's and STD on rods. But to be safe I would just wait till ya get the crank on hand. My 2 cents.  ;D

Ted

Yes I think I will do that and get the bearings later.  ;)

Wondering about the oil-cooler, maybe I'll put a type4 cooler... that won't be too much compared to the type1 cooler? By too much I mean is there a chance that it doesn't allow the engine to reach a correct temp, or that's just benefit to put it?

i don't think there's a need for that nico!
a few of my clubmates run larger engines and have no external cooler and have oil temps of 80 degrees celsius.
but that's just my view on it. i think a type 4 cooler is overkill. you're better off with a nice external cooler.

No I don't want an external cooler. Swapping the type1 cooler for a type4 is quick and easy, that's all I would do with the oil-cooler... The car would be used from -10°C in winter to +30°C in summer...

I wouldn't bother for those temps. Put a small diameter 356/912 gen pulley on there (later, if needed) and cool your heads and oil more. It will also make your heater work better.

Thanks guys, I'll stick to type1 specs, and if needed later with type4 cooler/smaller pulley if it's not enough. ;)

I wanted to get Bosch W8AC spark plugs, but I was told that current Bosch's are not as good as they used to be... The equivalent NGK B5HS are better?

And for the camshaft, the lobe center I need is 108° like Engle's? Because with SLR cams you can choose 106,108 or 110.

And I'm looking where to get HD aluminium pushrods, all I can see at Vee Dub Parts or CSP are standard aluminium, not HD...
I found this Bugpack aluminum HD kit http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C12-4054 but it's out of stock.

Edit : I found the aircooled.net 3/8" aluminium HD pushrods : http://www.aircooled.net/new-bin/viewproductdetail.php?keyword2=ECV0010&cartid= what do you think?

they're the ones nico!
different lobe center alters the character of the cam as far as I know, maybe something to look into?

They are more expensives than Bugpack or chromoly, but they seem to be damn strong!



Most cams are 108 (Engle, Web-Cam, CB, Scat, Berg...). I'll go with this, otherwise I'll start thinking and calculating for days and days again  :o ;D

I'd stick with the 108 ;)

 ;)


And as you said Ted, bearings for the DPR 74 crank are 0.010 under on mains and std on rods. I'll ask Berg for some main steel backed and Clevite 77 VW rod bearings.


And I'm getting Diederick's Rimco Super Rods (already clearanced and balanced).

(http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/9898/diederick001.jpg)

what size venturies do you have for your 40IDF's Nico?

I'll check that this weekend, they were on a 1776 before I bought them.

I'll use the aircooled.net alu HD pushrods http://www.aircooled.net/new-bin/viewproductdetail.php?keyword2=ECV0010&cartid=

There are 3 length available : 11.600"
                                           11.350"
                                           11.060" (very close to the stock 1600 engine lenght)

You think I should buy the 11.060" already assembled (stock is 10.935" ???)? Or get longer rods and cut them to stock length myself?

was wondering the same ting may self for my engine

On this page they say it's better if they assemble the pushrods, of course you pay $40 more for this... ::)

What does they mean by "These pushrods have a counterbore, so get the shortest pushrod that is longer than you need." ??

Means for example as I need stock length pushrods (10.938") I should get the 11.060" already assembled? Or I'd better get the longest ones (11.600"), check the length I need with the pushrods measuring tool and cut it?

Nico,
It means the ends of the pushrods have a larger bore to accommodate the steel tips than the center section bore (think more strength).
You really need to measure before purchasing.
Once the long-block is finished and complete, only then is it possible to find the true pushrod length needed. Buy or make an adjustable unit (can be made from an old pushrod).
Since you're going with a 74mm crank, things will be different from stock; Not to mention whether you'll be using any shims for deck height adjustment/compression ratio, stock or swivel-feet adjusters(?), etc.
It is likely you'll need something longer than stock length ...
Measure twice, cut once ;)

Ok I see now  ;) Then I'll buy it later when the long-block will be ready, since I will have to check the compression ratio and set the valve train with Scat rockers and swivel feet adjusters etc...
Thanks Tom!

Crank and flywheel are coming from Jose at DPR, and parts for the long-block from Berg and Vee Dub Parts. (http://illiweb.com/fa/i/smiles/icon_bounce.gif)

Thanks Died  ;)

While the parts are coming, I've been thinking about the work to do on the parts for the long-block. Everything that can be balanced will be done, of course everything will be cleaned/deburred/smooth.


Heads (will not see the big work as they are temporary)
-clean intakes and outtakes
-clean combustion chambers
-set chambers cc, deck height and CR
-valve seats


Case
-check the clearance for the 74 crank
-clean and smooth the inside
-drill for full flow
-modify the oil pick-up tube
-VHT paint

- will you do this kind of work or it's not necessary : http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,8007.msg121690.html#msg121690
                                                                           http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2007-05-01T00%3A00%3A00-07%3A00&updated-max=2007-06-01T00%3A00%3A00-07%3A00&max-results=10


Crank
-balanced with clutch and pulley


Rods and pistons
-balance and clean the rods
-balance pistons/rings/clips
-do you paint the cylinders?


Valve train
-measure pushrod length
-balance the rockers arms
-cut the oil groove on the lifters as SLR lifters are already refinned and treated I can even do this?


Let me know if I (and I must have) forgot something.  ;)

 ;) ;)

I did follow the case "porting" thread on my engine. I did not do the Bob Hoover mods, Steve Hollingsworth did my machine work and I trust that if he did not do it, it is not necessary ;)

I will paint the cylinders. If nothing else, it keeps them from rusting and looking like crap.

I did not cut the groove in my lifters, mainly because I didn't have a clean, precise way of doing the modification. And stock works so I went with that.

Thanks Zach  ;) I've found VHT Paint for motorcycle barrels and case.

I could use a Dremel or something like this for the lifters, but I don't know if I can find a strong enough tool to cut the lifters. And I feel a bit "guilty" to cut some freshly refinished/parko-polished lifters  ???

I have refinished german lifters to and i'm not cuting them

Yep, I'm afraid to create sharp edges (even if I polish it again after cutting) and ruin the smoothness and sliding effect of the parts.

Got the SLR camshaft and Wiesman lifters + a few bits : Mahle cyl. kit, Scat rockers, CB cam gears, clutch kit, etc...

COOL ;D

Can't wait to receive everything and start working  ;D (http://illiweb.com/fa/i/smiles/icon_bounce.gif)

 :-*

great stuff dpr cranks are a work of art, i have a 82 dpr in my 2110, verry nice for a decent price.

Picked-up my parts from Berg today. Now I have everything I need to start working on the block (except the oil pump that was out of stock, but I'll need it later). Maybe first assembly tests and measures during the weekend. I also got some Dirko HT sealant.

[attachment=1]

(http://www.csp-shop.com/cshop/images/artikel/magnify/21677.jpg)

One thing I'm wondering about mounting shuffle-pins, the case need to be machined? I don't plan to use it, just wondering.

Now you're talkin! Munch on some ZOTZ and put that thing together! LOL ;)

Hey Nico, see you got some parts now, cool! So what are the specs on the cam from SLR? FYI, you can have Engle grind cam's at 106 LC, I did. Had Chris at Engle through VDub Parts, grind me a E125 @ 106 LC, brings the power band down. And with a stroker! Look out!! Things are coming along good, can't wait to see this monster go together. Your doing all the right things, and your not rushing, that's good. Take your time, check and double check everything. It'll all be worth it. Keep posting updates. I myself will be done with my 2303cc backup motor with that E125 very soon, going through my own challenges, but will get through it.

Ted

Just thinking, whats the reason for the aluminum push rods, quieter, less weight? I use Manton Chromemoly push rods, strong and a very good push rod. Manton is here in SoCal or JC push rods, (there the same push rods). Manton will cut them and install the ends for the same price, a better deal, and they are fast. You can call them with the length and they'll get it done and shipped right away. Which also brings up about doing the your geometry for your push rods. Motor must be done, setup with an adjustable push rod, once you got it make the call to who ever you decide to do your push rods. The only thing I find with the Manton or any chromoly push rod is adjusting them at 0 to .001 clearance. Thats what I adjust mine at. Good luck!

Ted

I need to find bags of this in Europe !!  :D ;D

Hey Ted  ;) I got the XV290 cam (108 LC), grinds in-between the E110 and the E120. I also talked with the guys at Vee Dub Parts and they told me about that one for a road/rally engine. First steps will be to clean the case and check the clearance with the crank, compression-ratio etc... Thankfully my Dad knows what to do and will help me for all this, I'll work under good surveillance  ;D
I'm taking my time for this, I learned a lot whille reading, looking for and asking for infos about this engine. If everything goes the way it's supposed to go, we will do all the work at home, except balancing the crank with the clutch assembly.


I still didn't bought the pushrods at the moment. I was thinking about the Aircooled.net aluminium pushrods to make things easier for the valve train, I think they are strong enough for my engine?? (I have 1.1 rockers)
Anyways I have the pushrod tool to measure the correct length when the block will be done, and my local machine-shop is able to have them cut to length and assembled correctly.

Started the "dirty" work on the outside of the case.

wow! so you don't need that paint after all  ;D

 ;D no I will paint it even though, I'm just having fun with metal brushes  :P

Plans for the cleaning of the inside of the case, things that can be done at home :

- deburr and smooth everything
- enlarge the air flow around the main bearings area (under all bearings and top and bottom of the central bearing)
- enlarge oil grooves on the cam bearings locations
- I will also remove and replace the main oil gallery plug in order to clean it (and the plug for the full-flow will be removed anyways)


I have 2 question :
- would you remove ALL the oil galleries plugs to clean them??
- would your weld the back of the 3rd cylinder like this : http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_JU6RC7jJfRc/Rlo38bbTluI/AAAAAAAAARk/1-JNGRZZ_bk/s1600/WELDED%2B%233.JPG ??

And I was also wondering what material should I use to replace the filter in my breathing box? Steel wool (like in a stock air filter) would work? I have the grill screen but the filter was missing when I got it.

(http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/8131/langinstructions001.jpg)

How about a scotch-brite pad ? nylon scrub pad.

Foam will work, there really shouldn't be any oil up there anyway but if you happen to get some up there you can just ring it out!

Thanks guys, I think I will use a foam filter element.



I've decided to take the time to remove all the oil plugs and clean all the oil galleries. Then I will drill and tap, and replace the plugs with BTR bolts and Loctite.

(http://www.germansupply.com/home/image.php?productid=16840)



What about welding the back of the case behind 3rd cylinder? Necessary or not?

Not ;)

 ;)

Another thing, I didn't buy the intake valve stem seals. I was told that they usually fall apart quickly, and that they end up in the oil sump (or may get stucked in the oil ways) From what I read, most engine builders don't use it?

(http://www.mecatechnic.com/photos/VD25500.jpg)

Finished cleaning the outside and the inside of the case. We'll start deburring and grinding the inside this week.

I'm getting this kit to replace the oil plugs and clean the oil galleys http://www.vwparts.net/BP4500-50.html And I found this with foam filter for the breathing boxhttp://www.vwparts.net/BP3043-50.html


Still looking for infos about intake valve stem seals  ??? ;)

(http://www.mecatechnic.com/photos/VD25500.jpg)

Dont use them.   

Thanks Steve  ;)

One half is almost done, it just needs a bit more cleaning and polishing.

Nice job Nico. :)

Thanks J-F  ;) ;)

Thanks for tip Didi  ;)

You think I can use that : http://www.vwparts.net/CB3904.html ??

use the Curil for case halves, and Dirko (grey) for cilinderbase. Winning combo for me.

I'll look for that, thanks guys  ;)

Btw. why not buy Zotz at Amazon ?  ;D

http://www.amazon.com/Zotz-Power-Cherry-Watermelon-Flavors/dp/B000E7SYLG

 :o :P :P ;)

Both halves done. I will now drill and tape the oil plugs.

Today we put the crank and rods in the case to check clearance, everything is ok.


I also weight the Rimco rods, they are supposed to be clearanced and balanced but here's the problem :

#4 : 535.10 g
#3 : 534.92 g
#2 : 535.30 g
#1 : 528.72 g  :-\

I didn't tried to weigth them end-to-end, I'll do it tomorrow but I guess I'll have to balance them again. What's the maximum gap to have between the rods? (I know it's 7g from factory for a stock engine).

as less as possible, but 7g is ALOT! and they don't look that strong anymore to me (page 10) unitech hd's (scat) are very nice, maybe consider those.

I'm not a big fan of RIMCO rods for the reason you stated.  I will have two sets of RIMCO rods going up for sale soon...

Thanks guys.


You mean by CB? http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=1179

I wouldn't use them, and they also have the original bolts. (the rimco's)
 
No these are better, in your link are the Unitech HD and below in the picture are the Unitech HD Plus with ARP bolts.

(http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/7176/20147019902125924681157.jpg)
Very nice product for a good price.

Ok I see. I found these Unitech HD Plus : http://www.vwparts.net/CB1252.html but also from CB??

And the Scat : http://www.vwparts.net/SEICR5500-3.html

Both with ARP 3/8 bolts.

strange, i don't have any experience with those CB's, looks are the same almost. Only there is a price difference that atrracts my attention (negatively). Since i've got my own experience with the scat's up to 7500rpm (recently inspected, totally no damage or fatigue/stretch). Last month i handled those cheap ass unitechs and there are crap (measurements were way off! weights didn't check) so RTS). It's ashame that the unitech name is on those rods. Go for HD's and your motor wil live longer ;)

Yes those cheap $90 CB look... cheap! I'm not after high rpm's and severe track use, I'll think about what I'll do, keep the 311 Rimco's or go for Scat's (or I also have a set of untouched stock 311 rods).

I use Scats. With their price, I think there is no point in buying ARP bolts and rebuilding, weighting of stock rods.
But I'm generally not a big fan of those re-manufactured rods, welded cranks etc. Yes, they are old-school etc, but it seems to be their main advantage, really ;)
I have no experience with Unitech/CB.

Personally, I would MUCH RATHER run a welded stroker made from a good GERMAN core crankshaft with WELDED counterweights than use one of the CHEAP (in more ways than one) Chinese cranks out there ...
I use DPR for my welded cranks & they always drop right in, no clearance or endplay issues; SOLID, STRONG and made to RUN!
Now, I certainly can't speak for them all, but the Chinese ($250-$350) cranks I've tried needed additional clearancing either to itself or the case to fit and spin properly. Also, there were issues with inconsistent endplay measurements ... What A HASSLE!

Just my opinion ... Keep Smilin'!

What Tom say's, I also use DPR, before, I used Demilo crank's. Rods, I use to use Rimco Super Rods, and thier stock rods for stock motors. Now I use Eagle Rods when I can get them or  CB H-beam rods. The I beam rods that Scat look good, the extra meat a the cap I like. So my vote would be the Scat rod's for sure.

Ted

What Tom said!!

Balance the rods end for end and see where the 7 grams needs to come from. 7 grams from something like pistons is a LOT, but with rods it's do-able. Steve Hollingsworth balanced mine within 2 tenths of a gram, end for end and total.

zach, take a look at the rod's at page 10, they look all nice oldschool etc. But they will fail in the end IMHO. Bolts are halfway gone and maybe they had a rough life, if ALL measurements are correct i still would'nt use them. You don't want to mess around with this because IF it fails your complete engine is ruined. Please Nico, go for good rods don't go cheap on those. ;) ;D

Thanks for your advices guys. I showed the rods to my dad and he told me the same about the bolts.
We'll check again but I'll consider using Scat I-beam rods.

The stock length rods are the 5.394" ? http://www.vwparts.net/SEICR5394-3.html

According to the paperwork the bolts are new, right Nico? Many a hot VW stroker motor has been built over the decades with rods just like that. I'd balance them end for end, see where the weight needs to come off before deciding to put them in the trash.

A welded stroker crank is made of German steel... plus some American (hopefully) welds and some counterweights of an unknown origin. Of course such cranks can work. But they can also be very difficult to balance (at least this is what I heard). I think it is not that easy to make such a crank and there is a place for possible mistake in the process. Even if there are no faults, putting aside all the "cool factor" (old-school, "the way it was done back in the days" etc), a new forged crank just sounds like a better solution.
I was not thinking about cheap Chinese cranks initially , but while we're at it, I don't think there are such a bad option. I have seen a Chinese crank which was badly machined. But the forging itself seemed to be good. And the machining could be redone easily, and would cost less then the difference between this crank's price and a price of a similar unit from a more reputable company. All in all, even this cheap Chinese crank can be a good option. And I can bet it would not fail. Plus, the options out there are not limited to "old-school welded German cranks" versus "cheap Chinese uncool staff".

We are talking about engine internals here. Let at least try to keep sentiments aside ;)

Zach, I like your engine project, but I had an impression that Nico have more efficiency and durability in mind then "old-schooleness". Of course - I may be wrong.

And please remember that sometimes people have done some thinks over the decades not because it was the best way, but because they had no other options, which we now have.

The paper from Rimco says new bolts yes. Anyways I'll check where's the weigth problem during the week and I'll see what I'll do. First I also have to finish the case, and send the crank to balancing with the clutch and pulley, and paint a few parts.

Qubek, next time you're in SoCal have Jose take you through a tour at DPR.

Nico, just do what Zach said. I've been running those rods in my 2085(78x92) for nearly 10 years trouble free, and I definatly drive my car like I stole it :) :)

Nico, just send the rods with the rest of your parts to balance. Then they'll rebalance the rods the right way.      Ted

Why not? I plan to be in California in August and a tour around VW shops is of course envisaged.

But going back to the topic - Nico already has the rods, so the easiest way seems to be just fixing them. BTW Nico - are you sure the problems is with the rods, not the measurements?

What in your mind is it about my engine build that isn't durable and efficient? And reliable, if I say so myself.

Thanks for your tips guys.  ;) I can consider using the Scat's, but if the Rimco rods are strong enough for my engine, I'd rather use them.


I think I measured it correctly. I can try on another scale but I think it will be the same. I'll work on a montage to weight the rods end to end and I'll do it again.



I'll ask my local machine shop about it.

I didn't say it isn't.
You want to have an engine which is durable, reliable, efficient and more or less period correct at the same time. Am I right? This can be done, but is a tad more difficult than building an engine which is to achieve only the first three goals. One constraint less.
If I considered your project unreliable or inefficient, I wouldn't say I like it.
Relax Zach, I did not want to touch you or to say that your advice is not good. What I want to say is that IMHO there are other options, which are also good. I think the appropriate (although - in my personal opinion - quite disgusting) English proverb is "there is more than one way to skin a cat".

A welded crank is in my mind infinitely much better than a cheap crank forged today.
Perhaps Besserwisser can chime in on this?

I rank stroker cranks this way:
Billett
Berg (Swedish)
Welded stock
Forged (all)
Cast (all)


 

It's all good Qubek, I wasn't getting offended ;) You are right, those are my goals. And it is MUCH more difficult when you factor in period correctness! The only thing I am sacrificing in my build (other than $$$$) is power. It would cost just the same to build a 1915 with a larger cam and have 25+ more hp, but what's the fun in that?! :D I never suspected Nico was trying to build a period correct engine. There's really nothing period correct about a 1904cc with IDF's. I was suggesting parts that would work well together, be affordable, and easy to upgrade in the future. I NEVER suggest to my friends to go down the period correct route. It's a bottomless money pit! Even the motor I built for AssHull's '67 was a simple 1915 (welded c/w crank ;)), nothing at all fancy about it. It's a fantastic all around engine, too.

But back on topic... welded cranks and stock reworked rods are proven to work, and work quite well for a very long time if done right. For the money invested in these parts, I don't think there is a better value. I know many engine builders who trust in DPR's work.

Nico, glad to hear the 74mm crank "dropped in" :)

DPR cranks are for sure good pieces of work. I showed mine to some friends who are into Renault and Gordini engines, they were jealous that someone is selling such forged/welded counterweights cranks for VWs  ;D :D (and for that price, and with several strokes available).

(A new forged crank for a 1300cc Gordini engine cost about 2000€, and you have to wait a long-long time to have yours because the company that made them waits to have several orders to start producing.)

Billet and Berg cranks are even better I think, but if it was the only quality choice many of us couldn't afford a hot VW engine.

About the rods : the std stock length of VW rods is 5.394" right?

Correct, 5.394" or 137mm

Thanks Zach  ;)

Today I cut the oil pick-up tube. I had to do it twice because I noticed (thankfully before welding it) that with a metal tube the cow-magnet loses almost all its power, so I replaced it with a stainless steel tube and now it's better. I took a slightly bigger diameter tube and hamered it on the stock pick-up, then I weld it so it won't move.

By the way with my Lang oil sump and stock drain plate : I cut the tube to have about 6mm clearance between the end of the tube and the top of the plate, is that enough?

And I cut it "straight" instead of "beveled", is that ok?

I wasn't happy with the way how the studs sit on the oil sump, so I did this (it will go on the inside and will be held by the plate bolts). It will be removable so I can clean it when changing the oil, and I made sure it will not make a "closed ring" around the oil pick-up to keep a good oil flow.

You've got my old sump :)

I think yep  ;) (I saw your old classified somewhere here) I bought it with the breathing box to a guy in France, he bought it before in the US.

I sold it to Shubee. It's made the rounds ;) Glad to see it finally being put to use!

No big news since last weeks, I was waiting for the NPT tools to tape the oil plugs on the case (I received it today so work will start again).

I did some wrinkle paint testing, I have to bake it in the oven now  :P

Clean  8)

That Wrinkle Plus stuff is bitchin!
I made my whole engine bay with this stuff.

 

Yummy!  ;D

Mmmmm ... dessert! ;D

Dinner's ready  :P

nice nico they looks the same as my racetrim parts  ;)

Thanks Fabs, I love the look too  ;)

Nice work Nico ! I really love it !!!  8)

Thanks Flow!

Today I drilled and taped all the oil plugs. Just a bit more finishing and a big cleaning and the case will be ready for paint.

If I haven't forget anything, crankcase is done.

good job nico  8)

Looking very nice!!!

gr
Wout

Thanks guys  ;)

Another stupid question, about the cylinders and pistons numbers.

With the Mahle 90.5A kit, I can decide like I want wich cylinder/piston will be the #1, #2 etc... ? They all have the same markings so I figured out they are all the same (I know I have to not swap a piston with another cylinder).

Or basically I'd like to know if all the 4 cyl./pistons of my Mahle kit are all the same  :P ;D

this only matters when the pistons&cylinders are used items, right?

Yes, I guess it's not that much important when the kit is new, but I'll take care of this anyways. So I can choose any cylinders to be #1,2,3 and 4?

Yes, they can go in any hole. I tried every piston/cylinder in every hole until I found the combo that made my deck height the closest.

Thanks Zach  ;) So I'll check that when it will be time to set the deck height.

Nico, is that the wrinkle paint or something else?

For the case it's satin paint : http://www.vhtpaint.com/blackoxidecasepaint.html (doesn't need to go in the oven).

I used the VHT wrinkle only on the oil sump and breathing box cap (and maybe I'll paint the manifolds with it).

My engine would have built such

Crankshaft
Stock 69mm
8 dowel 200mm stock lightend

Rods
Stock VW rods from CT Engine


Heads
Stock twin port (with prshireni channels(ports))
beating the spring washer 5mm
42 and 36mm valves
bigger valves
Compression: 8.8:1

Camshaft
Engle tcs 20


Lifters
Stock or lightweigth ?


Rockers
1.4:1

Case
AS 41 from CT Engine
Pistons and cylinders
86mm Stock pistons by Evo 10
Stock 85,5mm honed to 86mm

Carbs
Weber dcoe 40

Custom turbo T3
Fuel
Stock or electric fuel pump

Ignition
Bosch 009

I should elaborate... Measure your cylinders from case seating surface to head seating surface. Two of mine were .002" shorter than the other two. In this case, I made sure that the 2 like pistons and cylinders stayed on the same side so the heads sealed correctly.

Ok I see now  ;)

Thanks... I want to use the case paint on my motor too.

If you are going to use it I suggest you to buy 2 cans. One can is very short. I bought only one and after finishing the 3 layers on the case it was empty. With 2 cans you can paint the case and also the generator stand, oil filler and all the other small parts you always forget to paint.

i painted 2 cases (with gen stand) with one can. easy does it nico  ;)

 :D I'm not good at painting  ;D

Received my 010 from Glenn today  :)

(http://images.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/pix/491238.jpg)

Bringing this up, what do you guys think about these sealing products for the case?

(http://www.mecatechnic.com/photos/VD71204.jpg)

(http://www.mecatechnic.com/photos/VD71200.jpg)


I'm a bit lost between the Dirko HT, Curil K2, Black Loctite, there's some in sprays, aerosols or paste...  ???

Little update : after a busy summer I'm starting working on the engine again, next week I'll pay a visit to my local machine shop to ask about the proper balancing of the crank and flywheel.

And I decided to please myself, so I got a pair of Flat4 Knecht-style air filters with K&N elements  ;D  This makes me go for the final look of the engine : all black (flat and wrinkle) and satin grey. The only chromed metal will be find on bolts and studs.

Gasgacinch and Murrays… those two always on my shelve  . Grate oldschool sealant for almost every where use. I use it for cases, oil pumps, alternetor stands works grate (also for v belts).
get yourselve Loctite 5900 for sumps (also oil pumps, alt stands, barrel to case).
loctite 518 (sometimes called 5188). grate for cases.

Thanks Tom  ;)

Guys I need some quick help. On Friday I will bring my crankshaft and accessories to balancing, so tomorrow I'll prepare and check all the parts.

I want to have one thing clarified, do I have to put the 2 non-split bearings on the pulley side of the crank for the balancing? Or I only mount the gears and spacers, then when the balancing is done remove it and put the bearings?

I stole the pic from dsimas thread  ;)

(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn47/DSimas_2008/Hugos%20new%20motor/IMG00351-20110928-2038.jpg)

Thanks!

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong but since the bearings are not spinning (well we hope they aren't  ;) ) you shouldn't need to balance them.

Also, I wouldn't have the pulley balanced with the crank. If for some reason you need to change the pulley, you'll be stuck. Have it balanced separately.

is that a CB pulley?  I had a hell of a time with mine not fitting my DPR crank very well, so I sent it back to them and they had the ID of the snout of the pulley turned down a bit.

That's what I think too, and it will also make the balancing wrong I guess . But as I'm having a doubt about it since this afternoon  :D Also I'm looking to an article in the french VW magazine, they are having their crank balanced without the gears and spacers, that's not good  ???

And yes I've explained this to the machine shop. He'll first check if everything separately is ok, then balance the crank with gears/washers/spacers, then put the flywheel, then the pressure plate, then the pulley at the end (like this : http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,16508.msg240145.html#msg240145)

dsimas is using a CB crank with this : http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,16934.0.html but I don't know if it's a CB pulley.

Look what he wrote about it : "Don't wait until the motor is together to see if the pulley fits.  You may need to hone the pulley or polish the snout of the crank.  Ray had to heat the pulley to get it to fit, which is nice and tight and will not need any work to get it on later."

John is right. If you need to replace a part of the rotating assembly you don't want it to mess up the balance of your motor.

I asked Steve Hollingsworth about this when I was building my engine, he said it isn't nessasary to have the gears/spacer installed on the crank for balancing. He found that it made little to no difference, and it was more of a chore since you would have to install the gears, balance, remove the gears, install the main bearing, reinstall the gears...

It's not worth it ;)

Thanks guys, I'll try to stay with the guy at the machine shop and we'll see.

Crankshaft and accessories are now at the machine shop. I'll go there next week to see how it's going on. I harrassed the poor man, explaining him how I want it to be done and how to mount parts  ;D  :D

I've spoke with the guy and decided to put the gears and spacers for the balancing. We'll remove it when I'll come to pick-up the finished parts.

Not much work have been done since 2 months, I've had to go away from my cars during a moment for some reasons  :-\ but now I really need to get back to work on the engine and clear my mind  :)

Crank and accessories are back from balancing. I got a good deal on the price since the guy at the machine shop managed to loose the Belleville washers of the pulley bolt  ::) but now everything is here.

Quick fitting tests everything seems ok.

Now I only need some small parts and I'll be able to start assembling and setting the long block.
And this is done too :

Hey Nico

Is your engine ready?

gr
Wout

Hi Wout, sorry for the late reply. I haven't logged-in during 2 months.

I have done absolutely nothing to the engine or the car since last winter  ;D :-[
Truth is, for some personal reasons my soul and mind are completely far away from anything car-related since last winter. I have only done the basic things to maintain the car clean and in working conditions. I barely drove it. To be honest I almost sold the car, including all the engine parts for this project, a month ago. Then my daily driver broke down and I had to use the Beetle on a daily basis during one week, convincing me to keep it. So I still have everything at home.
The good news is that, having only being able to work and nothing else since a few months, I may have enough money to have the gearbox/rear-end done how-I'd-like-it-to-be to fit this engine. If I decided to buid this damn engine once and for all  ;D I'll keep the car for sure, but don't know what to do with the engine parts now.

I've been thinking about it today, I'm still unsure about what cam/valve springs/pushrods to use.
I need to read again the lot of answers I got from my questions and all the informations I've collected last year. Either use the SLR XV290 cam + single or dual springs? + steel or aluminium HD pushrods? or go to a classic Engle W110 with single srpings and aluminium HD pushrods  ????? At the point of lateness I am I can take the time to have the heads cut for dual springs anyway.

i used a w110 with single springs and had no issues. so that can work. i can't recall the exact brand, but i do know they were the 'stronger then stock' kind... that is what i had for years without problems.

Thanks Nicolas ;) I really need to read all the notes I wrote and informations I got last year about it. Then I'll see what I do. Still not sure about whether selling all the parts or buiding the engine.  ???

building it is more fun... driving it is even better.

all the time and thought and money and effort you've out into this, you wont get any of that back, so may aswel carry on and enjoy all your hard work :)

True, true.

I don't know what is this thing that is dragging you away from VW's but... wouldn't you prefer at least to finish what you have started? I don't know if it's still important for you, but even if you will resign (hopefully not) from the hobby, at least you're able to say that you did it, and not that you've been walking around this engine project for years without having it done, without success. Especially that you're that close.

As for some of your questions... I don't feel entitled to advise you, because in my opinion the fact that I have done something in a given way doesn't mean that a different solution is worse or as good as the one chosen by me. I think that in most cases when you have a dilemma, both your ideas make sense. Those engines our there... most of them are not efficient (just compare them to what Johannes does) but they run well and their users as satisfied.

Honestly, I don't really know if I'll do it or not... I'm far away from it, these days I only feel glad I didn't sold the car considering the stupid an weird things I've done. Though today I stumbled upon a NOS S&S dual quiet-pack with its extractor for sale. Exactly the one I want, the size I would need for this engine, non-merged and with un-flared and un-chromed tips (as I prefer the black ones). I ask the guy for price and shipping and I'll see, it's tempting  :P And since past autumn I have all the parts ready, balanced and checked at home, waiting to already assemble the long-block (without the heads that I have to rework).



I choose the SLR XV290 cam because it's 'sharper' than the Engle W110 and would allow me to be able to replace my 'home made' stock-sized heads and 40IDF to bigger and proper heads and carbs one day without putting the whole engine apart. This cam may seem slightly 'oversized' but I guess it would be a fun engine to drive anyway. Plus I have the matching SLR-Wiesmann lifters coming with the cam so...

I think I'll use the XV290, but at the point I am now, I will have the heads cut for dual springs, this will be the only thing that I will not do by myself on the this engine (along with balancing the crank and accessories) but it will be safer. Maybe I will hate this cam and change for a W110-like with single springs later... But at least I will not break and ruin everything by running single springs with a sharp cam. And it's true, as long as it runs well and don't broke-down, I think it could be a nice engine.

But this XV 290 is not a monster of a cam is it? I know that people used to "over-cam" engines and this is why everybody are talking about not doing it now. But my impression is that people are talking about not over-caming the engines for so many years, that they started to be afraid of "hotter" cams and are very often building "bus-engines", even if it is not necessary. I'm not an expert and I may be wrong, but even if this cam is not the best cam for the application (and I'm not saying that this is the case) I don't think it's that far off that you would hate it.

No it's not a monster, I'll post the specs sheet later. It's just sharper that the commonly used 'mid-range W110'. Plus I'll use it with 1.1:1 rockers. Hating the XV290 and having to put the engine apart to replace it isn't the thing that would bother me the most, but breaking and ruining everything because of wrong springs would p*ss me off! So I will just play it safe and use dual valve springs, now I don't mind to have to pay for the heads to be cutted for duals.
And I think you're right, maybe it risks to be not the 'perfect engine', but it will certainly be a looooooot more fun to drive than the stock 1300-single-port engine I have in the car since years.  :)

That cam is great for the current combo, and if you ever decide to upgrade the top end it will really wake up!

I flip-flopped for awhile as to whether to continue with my current 2017 build... I can say, it's really easy to get discouraged and frustrated when things go to hell.  Only reason I'm continuing my build is because John Bates gave me a SCREAMING deal on another case.  Otherwise I would have had no problem parting it out and being done with things for now.

Sometimes it just takes a bit of time to get away from things to gain perspective, too.  Even if a guy ultimately decides to go down a different path, it's not the end of the world, by any means... most VW guys always wind up coming back eventually.  :D

Yes  :)



 ;) :) (glad to know you've got another case)

So I bought this NOS S&S dual quiet-pack, must receive it in a couple of weeks.

.

.

Yup... everyone's got a breaking point, and I've come close to mine.  I've never fought an engine build like I have with this 2017.  It's almost as though there's a higher power speaking to me, telling me it's time to move on to other things for the time being.  Just recently pinched a main bearing and have to get the pin drilled out.  My issue is largely the lack of nearby resources... I've just recently discovered a guy that does good work and has a good reputation that lives about three hours away; for me that's as nearby as it gets.  lol.  ;D

Yep I know what you mean. Well I received this dual quiet pack who looks great so it's giving some kind of motivation  :) And tomorrow I'm gonna pick up another '68 bug I bought during the week and I'll use it as a my new daily driver, so after having almost sold my Beetle this spring I'll now have two and I'll be able to work on the other one and this engine  ;D

That's a pretty old set-up... I know S&S had the flared tips for the longest time, but I remember seeing ads in early '80s and late '70s Hot VWs with the non-flared tips.  Amazing it's survived that long unused!

I like the fact that it's got non-flarred and non-chromed tips  ;D

I think about the only thing you can get as far as "merged" dual QPs now are made by Bugpack... they have the chromed, non-flared tips, last I checked... I've always liked the flared tips more, though

Yes. Flat 4 sells a dual as well, but I've never been able to find one anywhere, it comes with chromed and flared tips. CSP has a stainless steel one in their own exhaust range.
I've found some NOS or slightly used ones for sale, but most of the time it seems they were large flange  ??? And I don't know if Berg made them for small flange.
Finally this S&S is for a small flange header. :)

None of the vendors here in the U.S. carry the Flat4 mufflers, near as I can tell... not to say they couldn't order them, but I do like that style/design. 

Project pending, but still going  ::) I just have moved to a new place so hopefully I'll be able to keep going with it in a few months.

At the end of last year I got another set of 40IDF, rebuilt and ready to go with a set of jets. I once again did a list of everything I have and what I need to get. Mostly I'm just missing a few of the small engine tin parts, a Bosch blue coil, pushrods, a generator and I have to have my heads modified for unleaded gas.

I am still unsure about whether to use single or dual valve springs with the SLR XV290 cam, also deciding about which pushrods to use (whether aluminium or steel) will also depend on this  ???

I've been checking again my notes and infos I got, and I really need more infos/inputs about this. My first thought was to go with Berg single valve springs, and aluminium pushrods... but I am still undediced.
Anyone?

Edit : I got in my notes Bugpack 4046 dual springs

My understanding and opinion is 'dual carbs, dual springs'. A single carb, single spring, engine only revs so fast. Make it breathe, add dual carbs, and now its bouncing valves off the seats as the singles cant control the bounce harmonics. 

Also, dont kid yourself about that XV290. It specs out more like an Engle 120 on steroids.  252 duration @ .050 and .419 cam lift...It'll be FUN.

Thanks for your infos! Do you have any preference about dual springs? Berg, Bugpack 4046?

I have some stateside single springs in my engine. I don't know if the spec checks out for you as they were chosen for me.

This is not an ordinary uprated valve spring, the material used SWOSC-V, is the best available in today’s manufacturing industry and the same wire quality as used in the Japan motorcycle industry.

Using modern day manufacturing processes we have been able to achieve a valve spring that gives huge travel before coil bind and will not distort or loose poundage rates common with the typical import springs. From the installed height this spring gives good progression in poundage rates. The high quality wire used is 4.3mm on the outer spring and 3.1mm on the inner spring, the manufacturing process includes and heat treatment two times to safe guard against fatigue.

These will fit all Type 1 cylinder heads and Type 4 with minor guide boss machining.

Full range of base shim sizes available to suit T1 and T4 cylinder heads

In House Testing
Using light weight valve train parts we have thoroughly tested these springs on Type 4 engines running 86B Web camshafts with just the single valve spring. We have also tested them on type 1 engines with Web 86A & 86B camshafts with 1.4 ratio rocker arms on just the single valve spring.

Checking pressures using Longacre digital spring testing equipment:

Single spring
 In a single spring form measured at installed 1.50" – 111lbs
 0.400 – 219lbs 0.450 – 234lbs 0.500 – 247lbs 0.550 – 263lbs

Duel spring
 In dual spring form installed at 1.53" – 149lbs
 0.400 – 297lbs 0.450 – 342lbs 0.500 – 367lbs 0.550 – 391lbs 0.600 – 415lbs
 Coil bind at 0.712”

Installed heights can be altered to allow more or less pressure dependent upon engine requirements.



http://statesidetuning.com/newproducts.html

Thanks for the info, what are your engine and valve train specs?

CB Alu case
84x90.5 2161cc
5.5 H beam
Web 111 camshaft (276° 238° @ at .050"  0.476" lift)
Bolt up rockers 1:1
CB light-weight lifters
Manton pushrods
No idea what casting heads, P&P by RNJ 40x35.5 valves (I think)
44IDF

Nice streetable engine.

Thanks for your infos Iryanu (:

Mantons are steel/chromly pushrods right?

I'll never use crmo pushrods again. They are just too noisy.

That's what I thought too, and why I'm thinking of using aluminium pushrods. Some say they are more fragile? But ain't aluminium supposed to expand while the engine is heating, keeping then valve train settings more accurate?

I'm using a single HD valve from Stateside Tuning, and a Mercedes inner spring so my poundage is less than regular dual springs. This with ti retainers, scat rockers and aluminium pushrods, carbs are 44IDF and then it's going in laughing gas

http://statesidetuning.com/newproducts.html

Which alu pushrods are you using?

Forgot to mention I'm using Scat 1.1:1 rockers.

I'm using the single state side Spring also,

T1, 40x35 044 heads, 86B, CB lightweight followers, stateside's ally pushrods.

Speak to Jim he'll tell you what installed height you want and how much poundage that'll give :)
A plus is there cheap too!

Using the pushrods Jim at stateside sells.

I was going to use a single spring but the decision for the lower poundage dual setup I'm using is to help control everything on gas

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160310/465cecd6ed472236f1fda03182bbeee2.jpg)

Those alu pushrods must not have been available when my engine got built, I'd rather have those than my "clackers". Not to mention the benefits of the lightened valvetrain. I do prefer setting the valve lash though with the "loose zero". No more feeler gauge dance. Haha.

Then again, not much point in lightening the valvetrain when my engine is all done and tucked up in bed with a mug of cocoa by 5500rpm. Shed a tear for my "bus engine".  ;D

Thank you for all the infos guys (: