The Cal-look Lounge

I am interested to put 220-230hp N/A type 1 engine together for mainly street use.

Wonder that wich stroke would better, 82 or 86? With 86 stroke is 110cc more displacement.

So far parts i have collected:

Scat 44mm (1 3/4") small flange merged exhaust.
A-1 2,5" stainless renn käfer cup exhaust
dual 48mm throttlebodies + megasquirt
Udo becker lightweigth lifters
94mm wiseco pistons
1.4 pauter rockers
82mm Bugpack crank
5.5" Scat rods

Now i have  also new DRD L7 heads, but i afraid that they wont be enough.

Soon on the shoppinglist will be 94mm LN engineering nicasilcylinders.
Too bad that they dont make them at 101.6mm for oxyboxer use etc.

Headchoice would be either DRD L7.5 or neighbour country made MS230 heads..leaning to the last one, but they are twice expensive than DRD heads.

Johannes recommended me a cam with those heads for street use, that has 282 degrees at 0.050" and lift with 1.4 rockers 0.589" or 14,98mm
Sounds like a lot of lift, but MS230 heads have good springs and 117mm long valves.

Case maybe CB alucase. Cooling shroud will be OEM, or brasilian OEM.

How about 245 reliable, go-everywhere HP from a 2386ccm engine? More precisly: 245hp at 7250 rpms and 268nm of torque.

VW Magnesium case
86 mm DPR crank/wedgemated
5,7 " Eagle rods
FK 89 cam
1,45 JPM five bolt rockers
JE JPM-spec pistons (make for a narrow engine that fits a early model)
MS 230 heads from JPM
Cima/Mahle cylinders
51,5 IDA from Jay Cee
2 qrt sump
30 mm oil pump
1 7/8" header (ceramic coated) with polished stainless 3" muffler from A1
Manton tapered pushrods / JayCee pushrodtubes
CR 10,7 = ordinary pump fuel
MSD distributor, coil and wires + MSD 6AL
KEP2 with Daikin superdisc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJK5zlbvGtA&feature=player_embedded

This guy drives it everywhere!

UD ( Jeff Denham )  ;)

Sounds very tempting :) It has about 15,3mm valvelift, wonder how valvetrain lasts with that much lift?

Originally i thought buying 86C cam, but it might be too"little" with MS230 heads and fuel injection :D

It was built in 2007 and dyno`d this winter. Looks like it lasts doesn`t it? On top of the street miles it has been raced HARD at both BugRun and SCC.

Building a engine in 2011 without a JPM cam would be like drinking a good red wine in a water glas. You will get the wine down... and that`s about it.

BB

 

JPM has proven he is the man. It's just a shame I can't find much info on his products; cams, springs and such. the ms230 heads are outta my league  ;)
I know it has been said before to contact him personally, but I never got any response on my emails/PMs. And I'm not the only one. Btw I'm not throwing mud here, that's all. :)

It was built in 2007 and dyno`d this winter. Looks like it lasts doesn`t it? On top of the street miles it has been raced HARD at both BugRun and SCC.

Building a engine in 2011 without a JPM cam would be like drinking a good red wine in a water glas. You will get the wine down... and that`s about it.

BB

 
[/quote]

TRUE!!!!!!!!

In my opinion, To make that kind of power and be reliable the reccomendations to go to JPM and UD are definitely on the right track.  If I had the $$$ I'd be very interested in a 4" bore engine.  I'd definitely check out the JPM parts and engine configurations as well. Jeff

Too bad  that they dont make 101.6 nicasil cylinders yet :)

I have a hard time finding a reason why you should spend so much additional money on nicasil barrels. They will not give you a HP gain. A perfectly round barrel that allows you`re rings to seal will.

Cooling of course, why did porsche used aluminum nicasil cylinders on all high performance engines :)

Have you ever experienced cooling problems? I would actually go as far as to say that cooling is not a issue with our engines unless you do something wrong. Even more so when you do not live in a warm part of the world like Cali.

To put it to the extremes: Buggy, T4 engine - NO cooling fan, 5000 km on the street last season, two oil coolers (one of the front mounted) 8200 rpms - no cooling problems. And he drives his buggy HARD!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FvdIroItbc

Nicasils are a waste of money if you ask me but I`m sure a Porsche dealer would say the opposite.

If you're that concerned with cooling I can't understand how you could consider another head than the MS 230 casting. With its machined "heat sink" its some 40% up on cooling compared with the STOCK design. This amount of machining will bring the price up but you can see what your paying for.

Yes, MS230 cooling capabilities should be great due to 9 machined fins.  No cooling problems on a type 4 without cooling fan? Were there head temperature sensors and oil temp sensors? ;)
I think that nicasils arent waste of money, but wery expensive, and before i thought that too expensive. Hey, DRD sells also nicasil cylinders which are about half of the LN engineering product.
I have been thinking that it would wery nice if the engine would survive well on the highway drving 100-130 km/h and occasional 180km/h bursts :D Trans is stock ratio SSC irs with quaife, so should not be a problem.

Yes - no problems: More info here in Norwegian if you still choose not to believe: http://www.vwnorge.no/index.php/topic,24475.0.html

ja , ja og atter ja jeg har bare oljekjøling og har hatt det i mange år nå selv om mange sikkert hadde håpet på at det ikke hadde virket i disse årene 200 runder i denne helgen på Våler i over 25 varmegrader den ene dagen med full gass og 8000 rpm + hadde sikkert tatt frem svakhetene i systemet,,,eller ?

=

Yes, yes and yes again. I only cool the oil and have been doing so for many years. A lot of you guys probably do not believe it but this weekend I did 200 laps around the Våler track with air temp above 25C. Full throttle and 8000 rpms+. I`m sure that if my cooling had any weaknesses it would have shown - or?

With that horsepower, should i have wedgemated crank / fywheel. clutch is KEP 2 with Copperhead disc. Just not a big fan of wedgemating. I have bugpack cromoly forged flywheel with that bugpack crank. Also what about flanged crank on a street use? Would there be any endplay problems?

Glad we solved the cooling issues and talked you away from wasting money on fancy, no important stuff.  ;)

Questions: are you going drag racing? If yes, are you going drag racing with slicks? If yes - I would have considered a flange or wedgemated crank but probably ended up using a ordinary crank/flywheel in combination with a clutch management system. You could also read the dowel thread here on The Lounge.

Best rgs
BB

No flansh crank on the street . You can get problems even if you go dragracing with that cranks....
I would recommend dot tires and 8 long dowel pins. Also not bigger than 82 mm crank for street use with a stock case . If you want bigger use a water boxer case to be shure it works for a longer time . All this also depends on how fast you want to drive on the street

Udo

why is that so udo?

Hello.
I guess it all boils down to what you want to do. With all due respect to the buggy guy with no cooling. - There is a difference to lumping around and do short special stages to WOT on a track or fast down the Autobahn for hours in a row in the back of a beetle. So its really comparing apples to oranges.

I will go as far as saying that Nikasils are not nearly as "needed" here in Scandinavia as most places especially in Southern USA and similar. On the other hand. I have had the priviledge to build 2 Mahle nikasil equipped engines. 1 1835 type 1 and 1 2230 type 4. Both are virtually impossible to overheat even at very high sustained loads, dont need much oil cooling, ( the 1835 resides in a 69 convertible, pulls 125 hp and is cool as a Breezer out of the ice box, with only stock late cooling) So yes, it helps tremendeusly to cooling.
Next thing. The larger the bore the higher the need. That alone says that the need on a type 1 engine is not that high. The big bore type 4 engines benefit a lot from nickies. We have seen 5 & 6 stud solutions to leaking problems, but the addition of Nickies and the correct heads stud solves the problem without all the fancy stuff.
Last thing. Overdimensioned oil coolers are merely a band aid to cover for another issue, and also a misunderstanding as to what cools what. Extra capacity oil cooling is nescessary when we run cast iron barrels and high power output, because of the fact that the iron barrels simply cannot dissapate the same amount of heat as Nickies can. That´s why we use the oil to help cool the engine down.

Speaking of JPM parts etc. A Raptor cam set up alone aids in the reduction of the oil temperature due to the reduction of friction alone and the lesser need for high spring tension. I have only one Raptor cammed engine out as of yet, (one is due in 2 weeks time and one more in 4 weeks time) but already now I can see/sense the difference in the way the engine builds power on the dyno.

T

When you go larger than 82 mm you begin to weaken the case due to the fact that you make the material thin at some spots.
A WBX case is always good.
If I was to build that kind of street power, I would go for a crank with type 4 center main to make the crank as strong as possible.

I am not sure where Udo´s beef is with the flanged cranks on the street. But I´m sure he will tell us if we ask politely  ;)  -My hunch is that the thrust can create issues. Udo ?
T

Thanks Torben,

I totally agree with the buggy.. it was just a example. I could also have used all the vw powered trikes which are mainly used on warm summer days and probably see a lot of street miles.

I do not question the extra cooling the alu/nicasil cylinders provid but I question if it is needed. I don`t think so. Also, have you seen a nicasil cylinder after a season in one of our engines? I have and they did not look good. And yes, he used airfilters. 

Interesting thread. Looking forward to the build  :)

And one more thing;

If you still worry about cooling why not use E85. The positive effects overshines the few downsides.

BB

Interesting answers :)  I have been favoring 82 stroke many times and have used vw bearing sized journals with them, mainly because it has biggest diameter. Just collecting the parts, might be that it takes to the next spring  to get the engine assembled. Car is getting painted, rollgaged, new big brakes etc. Case will be original or CB alucase, but i have had alucase before and i didn't like quality then.

Yes, a littlebit dragracing, but not with sticky slicks. Long dowels then, still don't like wedgemating, DOT tires are okay for me. Gotta have somewhere fuse. Are dragradials okay? Too bad  that i need 16" to back, or possibly 944 spacesaver rims can have 15" radials due to a brakes.  I have oem hard rubber mounts and berg trans midmount. Also have made few good copies from it, lasercut parts etc ;) 3 bar kafer brace is also considered.
 
Dowell thread - i'll check that .

Only few cars here in finland run E85, far as i know.  I have no E85 near here, only big cities at south.
I have considered WBX case before, best things are that is has through bolts, it's diecast(?), and oilcapacity is bigger. But more work than type 1 based case. So far i know that it might need offset casesavers for type 1 heads, bushings(?) for type 1 lifters and no doghouse oilcooler.

Abundant E85, miles of roadways in super light vehicles that put no load on the engine, and ambient temps that don't require cooling fans is utopia.


Reality, however, is the toughest part about building somebody else's virtual engine. Alex appears to be well-grounded in the reality of the challenges associated with sustained high-output driving with the Type 1, which includes, to a large extent, heat soak and the engine's cooling capacity.

Todays cranks will flex like hell . If you have an old crank like Berg with porsche rod diameter or okrasa with vw rods it is no problem . Nothing to say against Bugpack cranks , they work well up to 82 mm with vw rods on the street
This is a nice video - split window on german autobahn up to 130 miles  ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkm3xLkhs2s

Udo

May be the buggy does not overheat because of your cold weather in Norway  ;)

Udo

Nice video, that watercooled car owner must surprised - even try to keep up with bug's speed :D

Seems that most buggys don't have full cooling tin, because there is no sealed compartment to use all tinware effectively, and buggys are wery light and air is flowing maybe better around the engine than on a sedan.

 ;D

awesome

^^^Who's this Jim Ratto guy anyway??^^^

 ;D ;)

newbie. ;D

That is the car from Klaus, in that video. Awesome car with big type 4 engine

http://www.klaus-kaefertuning.de/

the waterboxer case does not have throughbolts

Oh, i didnt know that. Always thought that it had... Are TF-1 cases still available?  Any experience with them?

How about exhaust on 2275cc 230hp engine wirh JPM Ms230 48x37 heads, is  1 3/4" small flange scat exhaust big enough? Muffler is A-1 2,5" renn käfer cup stainless.

So far this is my favorit topic here :D

http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,12883.msg198712.html#msg198712

Sorry , but waterboxer is the strongest and best case you can get . This is my experience . 2,4 with 230 hp on the circuit track for more than 4 years now with no problems ...Heads are modifyed original VW 041's  :)

Udo

Udo, how much is  WBX case from you, machined to fit type 1 parts, 94mm cylinders, lifters etc?

with WBX case you cannot use doghouse cooling, is it true? Does the normal merged exhaust fit with wbx case, or does it interfere with oilfilter or something?

Lnengineering is selling also type 1 nickies on size 95mm, considering them, first need to know more about them, i did ask some questions from Charles.
4 inch cylinders can be also made as custom, price should be same or close as 94mm type 1 ones. But JPM MS230 4" heads cost 3200 euros, 94mm heads cost about 2500 euros.

-Alex

Why do you guys keep trying to tell me my 90x101 engine isn't going to make a nice street engine?????

Because we know better than "there is no substitute for cubic inches" ?  :D

It is a nice engine , but depends on how fast you go on the street .
Is there a speed limit in finnland ???

a wbx case is not cheap . something about 800 euros ready to go
But you need a crank , that would be a problem . sometimes we find a limbach or okrasa here in germany

Udo

Yes, there is a speedlimit at finland, so  dangerous highspeed driving is out of question ;D I can buy here bugpack 86 stroke crank, it has T4 middle bearingjournall and porsche rod journals.

WBX case prepped for T1 use at 800 euros doesn't sound wery expensive, CB alucase is in the same priceleague. Do i have to get rid of the original doghouse oilcooler with WBX case?

I have pics about TF-1 case, this costs about $1250, and pickup tube is $125, 0.100 cam drop gear set is $150. Throughbolts included, they recommend to tighten this together to 40 lbs/ft. Case is sandcasted from 356-T6 aluminum and there is no casesavers(!).

(http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/5254/tf1x.jpg)

(http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/6558/tf12.jpg)

(http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/7715/tf13.jpg)

(http://www.precisionalloy.com/pages/images/tf-1_39.jpg)

If you have that crank i would use an aluminium case . As i said it is not easy to get a waterboxer crank

Udo

So, type 1 crank doesn't fit to a WBX case with ease? Large or impossible modifications?

Few finnish guys have used type 1 cranks on a wasser case, but i dont know these modifications.

-Alex

i used a couple of T1 cranks in a wbx case. i match a set of stock size wbx bearings with a +1mm oversize no.1 type 1 bearing (the one with the shoulders) it has to have stock thrust size (22mm) and it drops right in after you installed a dowel (wbx uses tangs), you have to use a lower pulley made for a wbx type sandseal (stock on wbx) - i turned down my berg pulleys
the set of bearings you have left can be used to fit a wbx crank into a linebored (1mm) type one case.

Who does this modification to the type 1 engine? And can it be done with normal lineboring equipment?

The idea with the 1 mm oversize is a good idea , i thought about it . But how long are those avaliable ? if you have some with 21 mm thrust bearing it fits into the case like it is. But it is worth in times of aluminium cases ?. There are some wbx cranks , you only have to find them :-)

Udo

oops, did i mix up the thrust sizes? last time i didnt pay attention and had to machine a 1mm ring as a spacer. best is to measure the wbx thrust and order accordingly
i had a wbx counterweighted 82mm crank, but it needed a specially machined spacer to combat the taper that the prop-hub fits to in an aircraft engine and it had porsche journals making rods hard to get
a type 1 case needs only a normal 1mm oversize linebore to be able to fit the wbx 1st main - and you have to file the tangs into the main saddle (done in a minute). besides that the wbx thrust shims need a tang too (no shoulder bearing here).

I'll think i put 86 stroke crank, more torque because stock ratio IRS transaxle. With wbx case, now i know that with it must be used aftermarket fanhousing. Too bad that the most 36hp style shrouds are junk maybe. At the moment i have new brazilian doghouse fanshroud without heater outlets.

Hardest  part is now try sell new existing crank, rods and heads.  :D Seems that finland many want to discuss about building 200hp stroker engines, lots of opinions, but only few is actually building something like this  ;D

If you are going to use WBX case, go 101,6mm bore.
Talk to UD or JPM about heads.
My friend has linebored a WBX case, all typ4 mains for his 86mm flang crank.













.

What did he do with the 21 mm shoulder ? weld it up ?
I wanted to do the same for a turbo engine ,now we have an autocraft case   :)

Udo

As you know, talk is cheap. I've been following your build for a few years in finnish forum and hope you can finally freeze the specs and actually build the engine. Parts list at least is getting very interesting and it will be nice to see it perform at finnish happenings.

Yes, talk is cheap...New parts cost a lot of money, thats way i am selling old ones :)  But it takes almost a year to get these parts, due to lackof  enormous budget. I knew that that combo wasnt going to give more than 200hp, so here i am...again. I did have that CB alucase, but i didnt like its quality.

At the moment, body is under repairs and getting new rollgage


(http://img574.imageshack.us/img574/4616/27102010661.jpg)

(http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/3264/27102010659.jpg)

(http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/6194/10122010720.jpg)

you can use a doghouse fan, just cut off the doghouse and close the slot where the air comes out ;D
i used a stock doghouse fanhousing (because its cheap and has all the internal veins), removed the doghouse and cut it to 30hp shape
pic shows it on a 82x101.6 engine i built for a customer[attachment=1]

Can you tell what was wrong with it?

I didnt like because all oilholes were drilled off about 5-6mm atleast, have heard that is has been cnc operator error or something :D Must be monkeys working at autolinea factory sometimes, huh?

What heads did you use on that engine ?

Udo

I am afraid that it disturbs the airflow if  i start modifioing the stock doghouse shroud.

(http://www.cbperformance.com/catalogimages/040-119-025.47.jpg)

Hello guys,

Thanks for considering(recommending) my products.

To 67-indeed/DVK reply#5,
I am really sorry if I have missed your emails/pm, I do my best to answer.
If you have a serious question, don't hesitate to shoot me an email.
Email me and I will send you some product info.

I am working on a new web page.

BTW the MS230 has 10 fins since a few years back.

Regards
Johannes

There is no point try to design and cnc machine your own similar head, because Johannes has only one truly fully streetable racehead   ;D

Okay, i have once done quick 3D cad model about vw head :D

(http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/3413/kansisf11.jpg)

(http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/3014/kansisf12.jpg)


 

Hi
Do you think your heads can handle 101,6 cylinders ?

Udo

It´s already done, at least 3 times Udo.
So no problems there. They easily pull 250 very reliable street hp. (Roughly 90 hp/l) out of the box.

I havent done it yet. I´m working on one this winter (but only 2,4 l.) to see if I can hit 100 hp/l.

T

udo: i used limbach heads. i had to machine down the 4" barrels and use a thick copper headgasket to make it fit, but it worked
sorry for the cellphone pics
and this thing is narrower than a 1600 engine, so it fits like a glove in an early compartment

Limbach heads are also a good choice , very good cooling but for 101,6 for me a little too weak

Udo

since i didnt modify the bore these heads are used with (97 nickies), i felt i would be ok. the guy i built it for will use it with porsche cooling and i used the oilsquirters out of a 911 for cooling the pistons. the flywheel attachment is not set up for drag racing with slicks

So far, i have decided to build 86x94 engine, which includes TF-1 case, nickies and JPM heads.

Are then  my only options for flywheel attachment with 8-dowel crank and wedgemating perhaps if flanged cranks doesnt work at the street? How about WBX bolt pattern and 5 dowells?

Didnt berg use to make cranks at special order with all T4 mains or center T4 main and WBX bolt pattern? Only thing if using all T4 mains, where to get bearings if case is at T1 dimensions.  Dollar to Euro rate, Berg price doesnt sound too bad.. 

With wedgemate done properly, will the parts get looser at every time when you disassemble it. How about oil leaks?

As far as i know Bergs do not offer their cranks any longer. Good parts are expensive and not easy to sell ....

Udo

I think M-spec and Moldex can do custom crank, but these cost maybe atleast $2000.   Again, the question, what is in my mind, will the wedgemated parts get looser at every time when you disassemble it?

This kind of custom crank with all T4 mains and WBX bolt pattern would be nice, if i could find correct thrust bearing. Rest of the bearings can be found quite easily. Question is, is this really much stronger than 8-dowelled attachment?

(http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/339917.jpg)

you can get a wbx crank welded up to 82mm and with counterweights at dpr (dprmachine.com)
for using them in the the T1 case you have to linebore it 1mm oversize and use a combined set of wbx and T1 bearings (as explained above)
one area to think about is the flywheel to use: the wbx one is the same as type 4, so you get differnt clutches 200mm (early type 4, hard to get), 210mm, 215mm, 228mm (wbx/late type 4), so using the readily availible T1 clutches is a problem if you dont have an early flywheel, there is a 215mm cushlock disc though (CSP has it). for other setups you have to investigate with someone into type 4s (yuck), not me

If crank has all T4 mains, and case is bored to T4 size, does then T4 bearings fit right in?  Can alucases handle linebore to T4 size?  If crank has T4 mains and WBX bolt pattern, does stock T4 flywheel fit or CSP flywheel for 200mm clutch? I can get here custom made flywheel at good price.

I would use adapter bearings to fit type4 crank journal to type1 case

Udo

Hello Udo,

is there adapter bearing available for thrust end? I can find easily split bearings for 2 and 3 journals with type 1 outside and type 4 inside diameter.

(http://www.hotcars.net/Prod/pict-o/big/5609-1.jpg)

Heh...that pile of shite looks vaguely familiar...

You could run the adapter bearing on the #1 main if you modified the case for the center-thrust conversion, such as what Jack Sachette and Rocky Jennings offer. You've got options...

Sorry about loaning your picture ;D


Is this center-thrust conversion, such as what Jack Sachette and Rocky Jennings are offering, good for street driving & lots of miles? Any pictures or better explanation?  I couldnt find any info about it from JayCee website.

Not a problem  ;D


Here is a photo I borrowed off of Mike Lawless' website:

(http://home.comcast.net/~mlawless29/cenmain13.jpg)

Several OEMs use a thrust arrangement on the center-main, and the surface area is greater than the traditional VW thrust on the #1 main; the center main conversion should be fine for street driving and lots of miles.

According to the math the answer is a big fat yes. Those five bolts when correctly stretched will withstand from 780 to 1100Nm. Purely static calculations though, so actual values might be lower.
A WBX crank is in my future at least, great information in this thread! 

just to be clear: the wbx crank has only no 1 bearing in type 4 size, the rest id type 1 size
i dont think you can bore a type 1 case to type 4 bearing diameter, these bearings are a lot larger than the wbx outside diameter, oil holes wont line up etc...
i tried to run a mag case with a wbx crank with a berg split main type 4 conversion bearing in the no 1 location (with wbx thrust shims), that didnt work, it ruined the bearing in a couple of hundred km. it seems that the saddle was moving too much to keep the bearing round. maybe you can get away with an alu case (stiffer) and shuffle pins.
the center thrust is a high $ conversion as far as i know, definitely more expensive than just getting a 1mm linebore and use a matched set of bearings.

About WBX crank, and its different size mains.. i was thinking that if i could get made crank with all T4 mains and WBX flywheel bolt pattern. I have asked, no one has yet replied. Custom crank is not that expensive, at least at this Dollar to Euro exchange rate...ok, it is a bit expensive compared to chinese cranks. So there is no number 1 thrust bearing available for this kind of conversion?

 

there is no shoulder bearing i know of for the waterboxer (maybe the early engines 1983+86 have one?), but then it would be type 4 outside diameter to be strong enough, so this is a no go i think
is it really worth all the trouble to fit all type 4 mains for your application (see title)? for allout dragracing maybe.....
its easy to get carried away and loose you initial goal out of sight (ask me how i know)

I found picture about early WBX bearing set from CSP-shop.  I dont't know if the pic is real, but there is shouldered bearing on 83-85 bearings, later is non-shouldered. I have been told that all WBX have same size flywheel side journal, right?

(http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/9635/wbxbearings8385.jpg)

(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/5743/wbxbearings86.jpg)

Cutting a mag case for early wbx thrust bearings is no problem . 70mm outside and 21 mm for the thrust. I did this often for street engines when the old okrasa 76,4 cranks where avaliable  :)

Udo

oh, cool
now i learned something new!

Mee too :) What size are T4 bearings from outside? same or bigger than this 70mm early WBX case thrust bearing?

With WBX bolt pattern, would this 200mm T4 flywheel be bolt on?

http://aapistons.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5&products_id=92

(http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/2536/dscn3084v.jpg)

i dont see why not

Yes, the Type 4 conversion flywheel will bolt right on. (FWIW, I'm running a Type 4/200mm flywheel I bought from Jake Raby)

What crank do you think about now ? If you ever want to sell your porsche rod journal crank let me know  :)

Udo

I didnt bought that porsche rod bugpack crank yet. Trying to get contact to custom crankshaft manufacturers, but not yet luck wery much. Pauter and M-spec said that they cant offer me this kind of crank.

I know that they do not manufacture cranks like that  :)  The only one will be moldex .

Udo

Too bad  that they don't manufacture, would be easy probably to make out of chinese raw forgings :D

berg offered waterboxer cranks, maybe they still do?

I asked from Berg, they dont make anymore special order cranks, even if its listed.

http://www.geneberg.com/cat.php?name=Special%20Order%20Crankshafts&cPath=88

Try Roger Crawford at heads up performance, I got one of his cranks for my 2789cc pauter street motor, Nice piece, makes a scat bilet crank look rather average.

I have contacted him, but i havent got answer yet.  I even did 3D cad modell  ;D

(http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/4701/crankshaftt186t4mainswb.jpg)

If I do a engine for my Barndoor it will be,

WBX convert to OXY!
88mm Chevy journal t4 main flanged crank.
5.88" Eagle rods.
Rolercam and lifters. (FK89)
101.6 cylinders.
A/F heads or MS230 heads.
BIG HX40 Turbo.
Halltech.
Cranktrigger.


This is not a N/A engine with only 225-230hp ;D

Why a roller cam like FK89 ? That cam grind does not need roller lifters ... But if you want one i have a roller cam with FK89 grind for sale :-)

Udo

Roger can be hard to get a response out of, Maybe try calling. He always comes through, hes just a little slow.

Roger did answer, he can have made it :) Still waiting answer from moldex. Always gotta ask from at least two places ;D

Yep, but its not welded crank and it is 86 stroke -  I am not going to argue with nobody about this  ;D   Still it is a lot of money, but i have to think.

Dam, all that money and time and all you need to do is to convert a WBX case and use a WBX crank for the best combo available. Remember - you`re only after 225 - 230hp. A result that was achieved years ago and with several engines to prove it. You do not even need IDA`s to do it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFk4hdd_tG4

You could copy the receipe I mentioned in the first reply here but be aware, you would end up with more than 230hp. Or for a interesting Oxy boxer thread you can read this on our Norwegian forum:

http://www.vwnorge.no/index.php/topic,19860.0.html

Newer know if there is more than 225hp.. Heads MS230, JPM 282@0.050" cam, 1.4 rockers, 2386cc, fuel injection. Also TF-1 case i am thinking. I havent seen personally TF-1 case, but i have heard mostly good about it.

BB, I think it will be similar combo as on your first post. I like this also:

http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,12883.msg198712.html#msg198712

The one in the link is a LOT of money and I have a hard time understanding why you should pay a small fortune for a exotic engine with 253hp when you can achieve 245hp using off the shelf parts. It is NOT the fancy parts that will give you the HP - it is the build.

I rest my case.

Yes, some fancy parts will not give more HP, only tad more reliability maybe  :)

Some of the engines linked to in this thread has been driven, and driven hard for years now...  How reliable does it nead to be?

The way i see it you ar more concerned with the name of the parts, than the goal you have set yourself.... wich in all respect it fine, but you may get dissapointed  if you ad cost/use into the equation...

Regards
Torgeir

Roger's cranks are real nice and look strong....

Udo

Just read through this thread..
A "easy" solution for the target 225hp would be:
WBX case AND crank. Best crank there is.
good rods
correct camshaft.
101.6 pistons and cyl.
MS230 101,6 heads with WBX stud patern.

No need for a §§§§§§§§ crank when Volkswagen already has made one for you. :) use the money on the heads instead.

reg c

It was surprise that moldex custom made 86 stroke crank is actually a lot cheaper than heads up perfomance (Roger Crawford) one. Well, about 700 dollars cheaper.

I like one piece cranks more than welded cranks. But i have not heard anything really bad about welded cranks. And TF-1 case is not so expensive any more.

When using 101.6mm pistons, then there is no possibility to use doghouse fanshroud. Does doghouse wide fan fit to aftermarket non-doghouse shroud?

it is possible to use a doghouse cooler on a wbx case (or even a type 4 case) using a type 1 cooling setup. you have to route oil lines through the fanshroud and connect via a sandwich thermostat from the oil filter. sounds more complicated than it is. the cooler can be suspended on the shroud, so you dont need the boss on top of the case
got a drawing somwhere but cant find it

Okay, i have seen that kind of setup, i think Stripped66 had it once.

What do you think, does these 101.6 cylinders have enough fin area?


http://www.aircooled.fi/shop/index.php?productID=1344&picture_id=935


(http://www.aircooled.fi/shop/products_pictures/Aa_101_3_Normal.jpg)


Stupid question, but how much would be power difference between 86x94 and 86x101.6 engine, if same cam and heads etc are used?  :D
Haven't yet heard any problems with 4in bore engines, is there any? ;)

Those cylinders are far from round, I've had 2 sets. I have stress plates for honing and can borrow them if needed.

As you know you can't use same heads with 94mm and 101.6mm cylinders. But all other things being equal the heads will flow better with 4" cylinders due to more space between valve and cylinder wall.

I have heard too same problems. 101.6 nickies would be good choice, but  they are custom made, not much more expensive than normal nickies, but still expensive.  With the 4in bore, everything looks so thin, except cylinder walls.

Does 101,6 cylinders cool as well as normal 94 cylinders? What is their wall thickness?

I'm sure the fin area is much less, so my guess would be no.

Rocky Jennings made the oil cooler adapter that I used to run in a dog-house shroud (I'm now running a POS Bergmann 911 shroud...). The adapter bolts to the deck of the case on the 3/4 side, which means you need to drill and tap the case to mount the adapter.

(http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/378317.jpg)

(http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/378315.jpg)

(http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/384671.jpg)

(http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/384669.jpg)

If that's not your cup of tea, a block of aluminum and a couple of hours on the mill should turn out a solution.

What heads do you have ? Or did you relocate the stud holes on the case ?

Udo

Eccentric case inserts.

That's nice , in my opinoin and experience it is the strongest engine combo

Udo

What flywheel bolts with WBX style cranks? Are dowellpins needed? I was thinking these bolts:

http://www.ahnendorp.com/product_info.php?language=en&gm_boosted_product=B-A-S--Spezial-Schwungradschrauben-VW-Typ-4&VW-Typ-4---Porsche-914-Motorenteile-und-Bearbeitungen=Schwungraeder&products_id=939&

(http://www.ahnendorp.com/images/product_images/popup_images/23070-3.jpg)

Uh, also found this video about chinese vs. german t4 flywheel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKDiZRTHO6M

This one is running stock used bolts:

Yeah, i calculated with using solidworks that type 4 attachment is at least 50% stronger with these bolts than type 1 wuth 8 dowells...but thats just in theory.  Nice car BTW :)

Who at europ can do this kind of thrust setup if i decide to buy flanged crank?  Case will be TF-1


(http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9948.0;attach=38874;image)

Just received the MS230 heads for my 2332 cc and will be running with IDA's, 10.5:1 CR, etc, again.

Any ideas on camshafts?  I'm currently using a Web 226 which has 278 degrees at 0.050" and 0.570 lift (with 1.4 rockers).

Also, have a Web 86C on hand.  Perhaps I should make the jump to an FK89 (282/0.582") or Web 251 (285/0.588")?  Would like to get low 12's or even an 11.99 ET in my heavy Beetle (2000 lb with driver).

I would look at one of Johanes Raptor cams, Sounds like he has spent alot of time on his cam pro getting the ramps to work with alot less spring pressure.

Oh sorry,  i didnt notice that here is more posts :)


I plan to use raptor cam, but not yet don't know what. Here is complete(?) list of raptor cams:


251° 10.0mm
258° 9.57mm
263° 9.64mm
274° 10.35mm
280° 10.50mm
282° 10.7mm
287° 11.43mm
293° 11.25mm


Johannes recommended 282 degree @0.050" cam, but i may put 274 or 280 degree cam. I need torque to move steel bodied beetle fast with stock ratios :) Finnish racer Jarmo Lummi says that heavy stock bodied beetles  need more lift than degrees, i think there is some truth :)

I have bought some new parts from DRD, bugpack 86 stroke flanged crank and scat 5.7" rods. I am planning to use similar bronze thrust bearing  setup as jeff denham is using, just need carefull planning and few junk cases to try first. With cad design i think i could design the bronze shims and drilling jig.  I have decided to skip 94mm pistons, so i have sold my wisecos and doghouse cooling stuff (except yet new DH cooler), nickies are still on my long waiting list...and 98+ bore.

Neil, have you thought fuel injection? I have 2x48 tb's for my engine with megasquirt. Newer actually driven with them, but hoping to get better throttle response. Your cam sounds okay, but it is possible to get few hp with similar degree raptor cam, and surely it will work wery well with MS230 heads :)

Ok, TF-1 case for 101.6 barrels and 101.6 Nickies are coming slowly...maybe before christmas :)

What size merged header for 2789cc 250+hp engine?  I was thinking 1 7/8" = 47mm, also it should be stainless. Where to get? Turbothomas? Remmele recommends 48mm primary tube header for 250hp engine.

And what cooling system? 36hp style fan housing with latemodel doghouse fan or porsche fan? Obviously doghouse cooler cannot be used..

Yes, i will build this kind of engine..and post pictures...  ;D

I got my LN engineering custom cylinders and JE pistons, holy ****! I have never had so light and shiny pistons and cylinders :)

Pistons are FSR type, even lighter and stronger than normal JE, they are with 27mm compression height.  

Cylinders are with 94mm mahle outer dimensions and WBX stud spacing.

Ok, now waiting "the experts" come to say these are totally unnecessary  ;D :P


(http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/2442/24052012h.jpg)

(http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/2015/240520122.jpg)

So did you not go for 101.6 bore? I dont understand what you mean by 94mm mahle outer dimensions and wbx stud pattern,the studs dont look far enough apart for wbx pattern if that is 94mm bore?


cheers richie

Sorry, yes they are 101.6mm, i did design with LN the outer dimensions close 94mm cylinder dimensions. Stud spacing is indeed WBX. I'll take soon picture with 94mm iron cylinder.

 :)  That makes more sense

cheers richie

Yeah, the cylinders feel quite solid. Wall thickness looks good on both ends.  Fins are only 1,8mm thick and 2,3mm apart  :o


For the TF-1 case and flanged crank, i am goiing to use bronze thrust setup at  No 1. main, Todd at precisionalloy recommended this way and he has done some designing about it.


Car will be hardcore germanlook style 1300 beetle with porsche brakes and mendeola a-arm front suspension ;D

I got the heads from Thorsten Pieper; reason i went with his heads, because they are tried and tested well cooling heads, even i have my own cad 3d model of the heads.

http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,21032.0.html

Case is also soon here, with Roger Crawford installed bronze thrust bearing setup and porsche oilsquirters.


(http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/5695/110620135.jpg)

(http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/2158/110620132.jpg)

(http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/1729/110620133.jpg)

(http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/2096/110620134.jpg)

(http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/9829/43192555209623148008526.jpg)

(http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/3619/30375552482118108163838.jpg)

Got some valvetrain parts, JPM Ti retainers, Manley 48x38 117mm valves, Berg locks, 13/12mm guides.

Later JPM dual springs and seats, and then to the headporter.

(http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/8175/xqt9.jpg)

TF-1 case arrived with hoses, it looks so nice compared to autolinea cases. I checked the hoselenght to car and it seems there is enough for front oilcooler mount and drysump installation. BMW main bearings and bronze thrustbearing came with case. I did trial assembly with crank, cylinders and heads.


The camshaft, connecting rods and oil pump are still missing. I did order from demontweeks a 360x190 (5.7 liters) drysump tank with Mocal thermostat.

End play is pretty tight, about 0.05mm, i will have to sand a bit bronze bearings on the glass. Due to a TF-1 case through bolts and 4 "bore cylinders i had to take a little bit material from cylinders, and possibly to get smaller diameter washers under througbolts.

There was also problem with TF-1 and LN engineering / ARP headstuds, because TF-1 case has no provision for 3rd cylinder deepstud, and ARP kit has one deep stud like stock or normal performance studs.

Also ARP studs for type 1 nickies arent available any more. Todd Francis does not recommend the make the thread deeper - but no problem, fortunately Raceware has suitable headstud set that is approved by LN Engineering and they also use them  now.

I am also thinkin to make cad designed rear mount, because case has bus style rear mount.



(http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/1516/y8zm.jpg)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img20/7724/xamb.jpg)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img838/6460/fms1.jpg)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img600/634/9xhz.jpg)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img89/4054/7akb.jpg)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img825/7763/pe7c.jpg)

(http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/4115/34wq.jpg)

 :D :D First i was lazy after posting this to finnish VW forum, so i translated this text with google translator:




Lohkokin already arrived with hoses, hienohan it is. Hoses seems perfectly adequate to get away and are really flexible teräspunosteflonletkuiksi. BMW main bearings and bronze päittäisvälyslaakerit block. I heaped a trial basis in the crankshaft, cylinders and lids with.

The camshaft, connecting rods and oil pump are still missing. 360x190 (5.7 liters) in size kuivasumppusäiliö ordered Mocalin with the thermostat.

End play pretty tight, about 0.05mm, will have to grind a bit päätymmäisiä bronze glass. TF-1 block through bolts and 4 "bore cylinders because had to take a dremel stuff and possibly lower sweepings through bolts.

LN Engineering kansipulttien with became a problem, because in three bowl long tiller bolt, Todd Francis does not recommend the thread to do deeper - no emergency, fortunately Racewarelta can be found in ST Engineering's recommended preferably suitable cover bolt kit and that the LN engineering using T1 and T4 engines, I understand that the ARP brought kansipulttien price time briskly

Wow this looks nice!

Roller cam?

At the moment i am just thinking JPM cam, the 282 degree one, JPM recommended that. I have Udo Becker light tool steel lifters. Case has also porsche oilsquirters.

2 plugs per cylinder...?

Looks like it, Donny!
Wow! This should really be something else when you get 'er going, Alex! Very Nice!

There are some really impressive builds going on lately ...
TxT

Yes, Thorsten heads have two plugs per cylinder - i dont know what distributor (http://bugfans.de/forum/resources/image/17083) he uses, but i will use dual wasted spark coils from 034 motorsport (http://www.034motorsport.com/ignition-solutions-034-high-output-cyl-waste-spark-coil-p-40.html).

OOOOOOOOOFF  :P

Don't use a distributor, Go crank trigger with coil drivers to your wasted spark coils..... eezy peezy..

Of course triggerwheel - i am using megasquirt.

(http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/9647/hihnapyrosineen.jpg)

You got everything else, go roller.

Why roller for street and trackday engine?   You need heavy springs etc.  JPM cams and light valvetrain works wery well

I am also thinking to use Scat 5.7 H-beams, should be adequate. I dont know the current Pauter rod price, but Carrillos are at least $1500.

take the lightweight pauter and you have rods for a longer time than the others

Udo

Pauters are $898 - considering them.  How much lighter is it compared to a Scat etc?

Considering the production process of them all against price point, Pauters are a GREAT deal!
Hell, I think I've just convinced myself to buy a set! LOL
 ;)
TxT

who sells the ARP and Raceware head studs?  available in both 8 and 10mm size?

ARP studs arent available for type 1 from LN engineering anymore, but Raceware studs can be bought from vwparts.net or straoght from Raceware, like i did.

Last week i got from demontweeks a new moonshine tank  :D and a Mocal thermostat. Also got one missing ARP stud from LN engineering  :)

(http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/7470/hyf9.jpg)

Soon will have new Megasquirt MS3 based ECU, it has splash proof automotive aluminum box and 56pin automotive connector, unlike typical megasquirt MS3.

Also the relays are built in to the box and it has most if not all the MS3X features


http://www.autotune.fi/tuote/370/atdriveboard-sytytyksen-ja-ruiskutuksen-ohjainkortti

http://www.autotune.fi/tuote/69/ms-3-prosessori-moduli

Also getting two wasted spark VAG coils for twin plug heads

http://www.autotune.fi/tuote/623/sytytyspuola-bosch-hukkakipinapuola-paateasteella-4-syl



(http://www.autotune.fi/data/th/c_atdriveboard4.jpg_35c_2a8.jpg)

(http://www.autotune.fi/data/dth/at/atdriveboard7_vip3dimem8.jpg_860x860.jpg)

(http://www.autotune.fi/data/th/c_hukkapuola.jpg_35c_2a8.jpg)

Would Stage 2 Wasp header ok size for my engine?   I think stage 2 fits best to big (2500-2800cc) hig hp street engines, since stage 1 is up 230hp, stage 2 220-290hp and stage 3 over 270hp.   I haven't yet got the recommendation from JPM, maybe he is at holiday?

Also on the shopping list of this summer is JPM cam, still debating to choose 280@0.050" or 282@0.050". 

He´s on holiday.  ;)

Hello Alex

I have 253HP T1 2387cc from Johannes, as I sold my python he suggested stage 2 when I asked him and this is what I bought, cheers

Friendly

Dimitrios

Yes, he recommended WASP stage 2 too, now i have it and 282@0.05" cam also :)

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/745/XnKZhB.jpg)