The Cal-look Lounge

Cal-look/High Performance => Pure racing => Topic started by: steve_pugh on March 03, 2014, 11:12:38 am



Title: 300HP or more?
Post by: steve_pugh on March 03, 2014, 11:12:38 am
I'm just curious as my mind is running away with me.
I'm putting together as you know a 2276 with a new AL High roof case.
82mm CB 4340 Crank.
AA Forged Pistons
fk10 Cam
Straight magnum gears
Scat solid lifters

My question is, how much abuse can those parts take?    I see people out there with similar spec engines running over 400HP with turbo and over 250 with mental CR.   Do they have UBER special cranks etc?    Or are these parts capable of taking some beating?

I'm just thinking to the future here.   Short term, some nitrous, Long term a turbo.     Would everything need to be replaced for a turbo or could these parts take the hit. 

There seems to be grades of parts.

    Low end (Bug pack, empi, SSP) cast, hypereutectic. Average price 150ish
    Mid Range (Bug Pack Empi, SSP) 4140 Forged / Forged Pistons (AA-Mahle) Average Price 250-300ish.
    Semi High End (CB, Scat, DPR Some bugpack) 4340 forged / forged pistons (AA- Mahle- Wiseco?)  Average price 3-350    This is the stuff I see more often on other people's spec.
    Super High end (Scat VR, flanged, CP,JE, Wiseco, JPM) 650-800 + per item
    Mortgage material (Pauter, Autocraft, JPM...)  Not even considering that...

So I've tried to buy the best I can within the Semi High end Range as after that, the jump to the next level is almost double. :eek:

And I didn't want anything in the lower ranges of cast / cheaper forged items.

Given this info,   Are these parts any good for a future upgrade to take the motor well over the 300HP or more? 


Title: Re: 300HP or more?
Post by: MeXX on March 03, 2014, 11:34:02 am
My question is, how much abuse can those parts take?    I see people out there with similar spec engines running over 400HP with turbo and over 250 with mental CR.   Do they have UBER special cranks etc?    Or are these parts capable of taking some beating?

I'm just thinking to the future here.   Short term, some nitrous, Long term a turbo.     Would everything need to be replaced for a turbo or could these parts take the hit.  

There seems to be grades of parts.
 
Given this info,   Are these parts any good for a future upgrade to take the motor well over the 300HP or more?  

Hi


I was running a 2110 90.5 by 82 stroke with 188,6 dyno HP and nitrous up to 225 HP
The weakest part were the Cima Mahle Pistons were trouble started beyond 150 HP nitrous.
Later on I changed to Wiseco Pistons (94) were it turned out that the weakest part were the barrels which tended to crack.
Never ever had problems with the wedgmated CB crank.

I would never run cast or hypereutectic pistons with a nitrous level over 100 HP as they are very brittle they really tend to break.

MeXX


Title: Re: 300HP or more?
Post by: steve_pugh on March 03, 2014, 14:12:18 pm
So your crank was just a CB crank like mine but wedge mated?
Is this gonna be the weak point on my setup that it's not wedge mated?


Title: Re: 300HP or more?
Post by: fish on March 03, 2014, 14:50:21 pm

wow, 300HP at the wheels, scary fun, must remember to pack spare undies.

non wedgemate crank will be one of your weak points long term with hard launches
 
no mention of your heads, this is where the power is; or the rest of the combo

the rest will last with a proper built engine, how long.........anyones guess

Fast
Cheap
Reliable

Choose two cause you can't have all three


Title: Re: 300HP or more?
Post by: MeXX on March 03, 2014, 16:43:56 pm
So your crank was just a CB crank like mine but wedge mated?
Is this gonna be the weak point on my setup that it's not wedge mated?

Hi

The wedgemate is necessary for hard launches. ::)
otherwise your flywheel might come loose what will destroy the crank an the flywheel  :P

MeXX


Title: Re: 300HP or more?
Post by: Fiatdude on March 03, 2014, 16:52:50 pm
What MeXX and fish state are true --

The answer to your questions are; kinda, sorta, maybe and sometimes

The combo (the complete car, not just the engine) that you put together is everything -- in the way back (70's-80's) I had some friends who were getting over 300 HP out of a turbo engine with stock rods and crank. But it was a glasser (no weight) and narrow tires.

A heavy car with big tires is going to be harder on parts.

A turbo is a lot easier on parts than a big nitrous system.

A lower RPM engine is easier on parts than a 8,000 rpm screamer.

.0005 seconds of a bad tune on boost or spray can kill a lot parts quickly, while the same thing on a NA engine wouldn't of been noticed.

My Fiat was over 300 HP but the boost levels were at 20-25 psi, it was a 2165 94mm piston engine, but high boost required better fuel etc, etc, etc, but it was a very light weight car it didn't have a ton of high $$$$ engine parts in it.... My 2963 makes almost 300 before the turbo starts to spin up and 400 at 10 psi... But you can guess how much money I've got in my 4" bore engine type 1 engine (Hint: new pistons and rings were almost $700)....

Better parts can be a lot more durable than cheap parts. BUT some very expensive parts can a limited use capablility. I had Aluminum rods in my blown drag bike and they were absolutely bullet proof, until they had 200 passes on them, then you threw them away. Titanium rods can have a short life. but they are killer light and make an engine scream at high RPMs, for a while....

.................and absolutely nothing will survive stupidity

IF you have a limited wallet, you just have to look at what you want to do, put limits upon yourself not to exceed them and build your stuff to that level. If in the future you want more, then you have to stop and rebuild to reach that level -- or use the Berg principle -- cry once and be done with it --


Title: Re: 300HP or more?
Post by: Fiatdude on March 03, 2014, 17:25:57 pm
ooooops -- Had one other point I wanted to make -- nothing makes up for big cc's --- from there you can get to 300 HP two ways

First way -- A lot of engine with just a little bit of help

Second way -- low HP engine with a Lot of help -- I prefer Turbo's

Both ways will require many of the same pieces. For a street car, I prefer the low hp engine with a lot of help -- you will have better drivability for everyday use -- uses smaller cam -- better fuel mileage when cruising, and usually a lot less maintenance

B U T -- If this will be a primarily a track car, then you build the chit out of the engine and than add help from there


Title: Re: 300HP or more?
Post by: leec on March 03, 2014, 19:06:47 pm
I wish I knew someone who could wedgemate my CB crank. Could keep it then!


Title: Re: 300HP or more?
Post by: BeetleBug on March 03, 2014, 19:32:41 pm
I do not believe you need to wedgemate it. Make sure the splines are tight and then torque it properly. Combine it with good clutch and it will last as long as you want.

-BB-


Title: Re: 300HP or more?
Post by: dannyboy on March 03, 2014, 20:00:20 pm
I do not believe you need to wedgemate it. Make sure the splines are tight and then torque it properly. Combine it with good clutch and it will last as long as you want.

-BB-
yep my 8 dowell lasted fine 185hp and 100 shot of gas car was lightish on a set of 6 inch slicks after 3 seasons of abuse all is still good


Title: Re: 300HP or more?
Post by: Red Rooster on March 04, 2014, 19:22:38 pm
Lee I have been looking into wedgemating my crank also.

Spoke to John Maher and Pete at cog box in the hope of getting it done but to no avail in the UK.

I did get a lot of useful information from them however, Pete has been managing those big launches on only 8 dowels!

I have spoken with a company about grinding.

Ideally before going ahead id like to take a look at a wedgemated set up to confirm the extent of the interference between crank and f/wheel then we should be good to do it in the UK.

There does not seem to be a great call for it however.

Sorry to hijack your thread Steve, and apologies for not being in touch regarding your breather tank. its all been a bit of a hectic start to the year.

David


Title: Re: 300HP or more?
Post by: leec on March 04, 2014, 19:50:52 pm
To be honest I've not had a huge amount of interest in the CB crank and flywheel so may just bite the billet and get it built. My new car will be lighter anyway.
Thanks for the info.
Lee


Title: Re: 300HP or more?
Post by: Chris bugster on March 05, 2014, 12:14:11 pm
Farndon do a locking taper. They do REALLY nice work but you'll have to wait a bit.