The Cal-look Lounge

Cal-look/High Performance => Pure racing => Topic started by: Garrick Clark on June 13, 2020, 14:08:10 pm



Title: Fuel injection
Post by: Garrick Clark on June 13, 2020, 14:08:10 pm
Hi guys. Who would you trust to take your VW to have an injection kit fitted and tuned.
I'd like to use the Dellorto manifolds and bolt the kit onto them.
This is a turbo engine , with injection pump already fitted, reg would need changing for a different spec.


Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: richie on June 13, 2020, 16:26:54 pm
What are you using for tops of carbs at moment? would CBs throttle bodies be direct replacement? so then no physical fabrication just EFi conversion?


Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: Garrick Clark on June 13, 2020, 17:31:09 pm
I've got the CB hats , dell carb top bases, csp linkage 


Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: Garrick Clark on June 13, 2020, 17:40:14 pm
This might be a job for you yet Richie..
I got csp 40mm dell manifolds. Water nozzles up high in the manifolds. Would it be a straight forward job for you this .
Gunna comp test all 4 tomorrow just to see if the thing isn't tricking me. I did remember just earlier that I also forgot I had the water spray set
to come on at zero psi and to be full psi output from the pump.Probably why it was hunting and bucking like a good n.
There is a few dell fitment injector bodies available. Jenvey have some.


Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: richie on June 13, 2020, 21:05:57 pm
Reasonably straight forward to convert, not sure if your cb stuff will fit on top of jenveys or not, havent tried that combo myself.


I wouldn't be switching the water/meth on until about 9spi myself 


Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: Garrick Clark on June 13, 2020, 21:28:39 pm
Yeah, I had it on too soon. Didn't realise till a few
Hours after stepping away from it. DOH.


Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: Garrick Clark on June 14, 2020, 11:25:00 am
Just notice that lifting number 2 lead off the cap no spark jumps from the lead to the cap at less than 1/4 gap. The other 3 do. Ffs


Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: PPRMicke on June 14, 2020, 14:29:52 pm
There is a part that the water can do
Like it gets incorrect AFR value
/// Micke


Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: Garrick Clark on June 14, 2020, 16:58:48 pm
I've only got the 1 nozzle working at moment. Its piped into the inlet manifold that feeds the 4 cylinders.


Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: PPRMicke on June 14, 2020, 17:31:02 pm
I've only got the 1 nozzle working at moment. Its piped into the inlet manifold that feeds the 4 cylinders.

if you have one or four you get the wrong value of the mixture (AFR) But if you measure Lambda it is the right value
Many have burned pistons due to water injection
why don't you put a map when there is charge pressure to avoid detonations
/// Micke


Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: richie on June 14, 2020, 18:04:07 pm
I've only got the 1 nozzle working at moment. Its piped into the inlet manifold that feeds the 4 cylinders.

if you have one or four you get the wrong value of the mixture (AFR) But if you measure Lambda it is the right value
Many have burned pistons due to water injection
why don't you put a map when there is charge pressure to avoid detonations
/// Micke

Micke, it has dellortos on it at moment not EFi


Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: PPRMicke on June 14, 2020, 20:26:58 pm
I've only got the 1 nozzle working at moment. Its piped into the inlet manifold that feeds the 4 cylinders.

if you have one or four you get the wrong value of the mixture (AFR) But if you measure Lambda it is the right value
Many have burned pistons due to water injection
why don't you put a map when there is charge pressure to avoid detonations
/// Micke

Micke, it has dellortos on it at moment not EFi

then it is another problem if you try to find the right nozzle for the carburetors if you use water


Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: Garrick Clark on June 15, 2020, 16:38:41 pm
I do have 4 X devils own number 1 nozzles ,1 for each cylinder. These are sized for a 96 mm piston. I could re plumb them real quick. But it's fueling thats the problem. I've been a carb man for years. Only some types of carb are better than others . Dells are not simple enough to get working right. I've put my 2 inch variable vent SU back on and its better but won't be like a proper injection kit.
So as it is now I'm still using dell manifolds with
my  2 horizontal adapter pipes fitted.2 X 90 degree elbows , a horizontal link pipe and an SU in the middle, still blow through. Why is injection so expensive, it's not like it's a new thing that's been invented is it .lol


Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: PPRMicke on June 15, 2020, 18:45:51 pm
I do have 4 X devils own number 1 nozzles ,1 for each cylinder. These are sized for a 96 mm piston. I could re plumb them real quick. But it's fueling thats the problem. I've been a carb man for years. Only some types of carb are better than others . Dells are not simple enough to get working right. I've put my 2 inch variable vent SU back on and its better but won't be like a proper injection kit.
So as it is now I'm still using dell manifolds with
my  2 horizontal adapter pipes fitted.2 X 90 degree elbows , a horizontal link pipe and an SU in the middle, still blow through. Why is injection so expensive, it's not like it's a new thing that's been invented is it .lol

Tips on two good systems
 https://www.fueltech.net/products/ft550-efi-system      https://www.fueltech.net/products/ft550lite-sfi-system 
   https://www.maxxecu.com/products/sport (This is very good price and very easy to work in
///Micke


Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: Garrick Clark on June 15, 2020, 23:58:11 pm
Yeah. I do like the look of that.The price is about as low as it's going to get isn't it.


Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: richie on June 16, 2020, 07:31:13 am

 Why is injection so expensive, it's not like it's a new thing that's been invented is it .lol


The old stuff is cheap, but mostly rubbish, i got one car with a 20 year old dta set up on it, its probably only worth about 200 all in now so more useful to me than selling it as its still 1000 times better than carbs ;D :D



Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: Garrick Clark on June 16, 2020, 09:14:40 am
 :D. well if I can't get it summat like I know what I have to do.


Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: spoolin70 on June 16, 2020, 09:28:22 am
Morning Garrick

I swapped from Dellorto to Jenvey a few years ago and have been trying to remember all the details.

I got all the parts from JMR - John Mayer (is he still in business  ???).  The majority was bolt on but I do remember the throttle bodies were slightly shorter than the carbs. No problem for a first install but I already had turbo pipework and chargecooler in place and there wasn't room to drop the link pipe. Ended up welding a thick piece of aluminium to each base plate to raise them 20 or so mm to bring the top hats back to the correct height.

A little agricultural but once polished, hardly noticeable  :D

The CB hex linkage arms wouldn't work with the jenveys either but they sell a half moon adaptor with holes in that we welded on also.

Depending on size of your engine you should note the injector position. Mine were outboard, so next to inner wing but were Pico injectors so relatively short so clearance was fine.

Also removed the MSD distributor and went to wasted spark. Berg pulley was machined for trigger wheel pickup (not bolted on).

Regarding ECU, I'm sure Fueltech works great but if your not planning on mapping it, I'd find and speak to your chosen mapper first. If he's never used Fueltech or whichever you choose, it could make the process longer and more expensive. Also, look at the features your paying for, do you need to control 16 injectors and 8 coilpacks or can you use a lesser (cheaper) model. Motec, Maxxecu, Haltech, DTA, Link etc etc all have their fans and Instagram heroes and all can be made to work but are you fitting and forgetting or constantly adjusting ? I had a DTA ex48 - old and basic by today's standards but worked fine and done everything I wanted plus UK support and forum. I have an omex now. Again perhaps a bit basic (no pretty lights or flashing buttons) but I could pick up the phone and speak direct to omex without worry of time difference or language barrier and send it direct to them for testing/calibration/firmware upgrade.

Good luck
Darren


Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: Eddie on June 16, 2020, 11:26:40 am
Always wondered why the British people never speak off Omex, all the ford, kitcars like lotus sevens use a lot off Omex stuff.
Very simple and not to expensive, also most of the times including cable tree, if you give them a call.

Two off my mates have alfa 75 twinspark engines in their GT juniors with Omex ECU s, very easy to adjust.
I am also looking in to that direction.

Regards Eddie


Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: Garrick Clark on June 16, 2020, 12:00:50 pm
I do have the omex 2 step . I'll do some home work on them as well as the others above


Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: brewsy on June 17, 2020, 14:03:00 pm
Always wondered why the British people never speak off Omex, all the ford, kitcars like lotus sevens use a lot off Omex stuff.
Very simple and not to expensive, also most of the times including cable tree, if you give them a call.

Regards Eddie

I'm not a FI vendor and am a Brit but thats the first Ive ever heard of Omex!
Certainly the pricing seems OK..


Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: spoolin70 on June 17, 2020, 17:06:29 pm
[attachment=1]


Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: Garrick Clark on June 18, 2020, 15:09:04 pm
Looks promising


Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: Garrick Clark on June 20, 2020, 20:50:04 pm
I see lime bug sells 40mm throttle bodies  with injector ports for dell manifolds.
This way I can use my linkage and top hats.



Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: spoolin70 on June 21, 2020, 10:12:38 am
Or

https://store.jenvey.co.uk/throttle-bodies-and-components/throttle-bodies/twin-bodies-idf-style/tbody-pair-idf-40-50mm-tfp40-50

Check the drawing though  ;)


Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: MegaRookie on June 21, 2020, 14:41:08 pm
Maybe nice to also checkout the VW speedshop throttlebodies. They also mount directly onto the idf/dlra pattern and can also be used with your top hats with the filter adapter option :D

https://vwspeedshop.com/product.php?productid=16821&cat=395&page=1
 
Mark


Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: Garrick Clark on June 21, 2020, 14:49:13 pm
hard to choose really. The VW speed shop ones look better.


Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: PPRMicke on June 21, 2020, 16:36:48 pm
You can buy from Sweden 
 129.54 x 2
https://shop.klracing.se/sv/artiklar/spjallhus-45mm-idf.html
/// M


Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: Garrick Clark on June 21, 2020, 19:21:31 pm
Yeah that's a good price. So once the throttle bodies in place what  is a common ECU to use that can self tune


Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: Arnoud on June 21, 2020, 20:41:56 pm
Micke:those are the FAJS ones right?Do you have experience with them?Are they any good?

Cheers,Arnoud


Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: Garrick Clark on June 22, 2020, 09:55:15 am
Would using the Dells with just the throttle blades work as throttle bodies. Injector bosses welded into the manifolds.


Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: PPRMicke on June 22, 2020, 14:35:56 pm
Micke:those are the FAJS ones right?Do you have experience with them?Are they any good?

Cheers,Arnoud

FAJS a company in China that makes very nice carburetors
The quality is very nice even on their copies.
 Used a lot in folk racing and Rally   (A cheaper form of rallycross  ) in Sweden
/// Micke


Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: PPRMicke on June 22, 2020, 14:44:50 pm
Yeah that's a good price. So once the throttle bodies in place what  is a common ECU to use that can self tune
Yes
It's just the hardware
The ECU is up to using what suits you best
I know a car that has them 45mm In it they have 1040 whk  (So that should be enough)
/// Micke


Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: Garrick Clark on June 22, 2020, 17:51:50 pm
Dells as throttle bodies would help me get a better ECU


Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: MegaRookie on June 22, 2020, 18:26:29 pm
That would also be a nice option, seen the fajs before, but bought the vw speedshop ones because the fajs were not big enough in my opinion :D but I saw that they also sell bigger ones now.

As for using the dells as tb's that should be a possibility. A friend of my has 48 ida's as tb's. I dont know if it is needed to block the fuel/idle circuit, but maybe nice to machine the venturi for 40mm, because you don't need it anymore.

Regarding the ecu, I use Megasquirt 2 (extra, sequential ignition) for years now. I know there are a lot of other brands on the market, but don't have any experience with them.

Mark


Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: Garrick Clark on June 22, 2020, 19:45:06 pm
Thanks Mark.


Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: andy198712 on August 01, 2020, 17:12:28 pm
Thanks Mark.

i'm another one for Megasquirt, ran MS1 2.2 which is very old, for a long time, then i built a V3 board and now just starting it with MS3 V3 which is a huge step up....

are you planning on tuning it your self or taking it to somewhere in particular? in which case check what they tune...  8)


Title: Re: Fuel injection
Post by: Garrick Clark on August 01, 2020, 17:49:28 pm
Well. If my last of many last attempts at Dell blow through doesn't work I'm looking for some reputable shop to fit n tune it.