The Cal-look Lounge

Cal-look/High Performance => Pure racing => Topic started by: BeetleBug on November 27, 2007, 11:12:11 am



Title: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: BeetleBug on November 27, 2007, 11:12:11 am
Inspired by the old school cal look engine thread and after seeing the Kris Klingaman thread I felt like starting a own mouse engine discussion. OK, I asked in the other thread if it is possible to reach the 100hp/l limit without having to spend a fortune and I have received info that this is impossible to reach - especially if you want a true street engine.

IS IT?

It`s quite obvious that Kris Klingaman`s engine was a pure race engine with a compression of 14.5:1 but what else did he do so correct to manage to push a close to stock weight car into the 11`s with a 1750ccm engine? This is just as fast and even faster than most 2,3`s out there today.

WHY WAS A GUY FASTER BACK THEN USING A MOUSE ENGINE THAN MOST GUYS ARE TODAY?

With the WWW, info available everywhere and plenty of shops offering high power stuff we should be going faster, agree? Or has all the info/parts available made us loose the ability to "think out of the box". Or is not "thinking out of the box" the answer? Maybe we`re heading in the wrong direction and is building engines that is not as close to their full potential compared to what they built "back then?"

And what makes a engine old school? Bolting on period correct parts? For me a truly old school engine is a engine that has been built the way they did it back then. When know how was important, the parts where hard to come by and creativity was necessary to be a little bit faster than your competitor.

Best rgs
BB

 



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: LGK on November 27, 2007, 12:44:31 pm
WHY WAS A GUY FASTER BACK THEN USING A MOUSE ENGINE THAN MOST GUYS ARE TODAY?[/

What tells you this statement is true and proven?

Watch out for 2008...even before we had 1776cc engines reving to the moon and making at least  180hp AND being reliable ...

I'm sure there will be some other guys chime in on this...

"thinking out of the box" the answer  is INDEED the key to succes  ::)


Regards Steve


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Fastbrit on November 27, 2007, 12:52:04 pm
WHY WAS A GUY FASTER BACK THEN USING A MOUSE ENGINE THAN MOST GUYS ARE TODAY?
Two words: grenade motors! Talking with many of the 'old guys' (like I'm young... ::)), we tend to forget that many of the fast mouse-motored cars had engines which lived on (and frequently exceeded) the limit. Catastrophic engine failures were not uncommon.

Don't underestimate the fact that there are far more 11-second true street cars around today than ever before because engine technology has moved on and parts are so readily available. Yes, we could go even faster by building engines that are on the edge all the time, but who wants to be sweeping up parts and rebuilding broken motors every weekend?

One big reason the old motors did produce a lot of horsepower for their size was down to superior head work. When you didn't have a range if aftermarket heads to choose from, there was no option but to extract the maximum from factory 311 castings. Head porters like Fumio Fukaya and Dean Lowry were capable of such work and today there are others, but few people choose to go down that route any more. Why? It's too easy (and far cheaper) to buy some off the shelf heads from someone like CB that will make good hp. I bet if you paid someone like Fumio (or Jeff Denham) the FULL rate (and don't underestimate the number of hours it takes to do a good job) for doing a set of dynamite 311 heads, you'd be amazed at how much you'd get out of a small motor.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: BeetleBug on November 27, 2007, 13:25:33 pm
Hi Steve,

What tells you this statement is true and proven?

It was meant as a question but that said I have still not heard or read about a small engine going into the 11`s like Klingaman. Looking at certain lists and our All Time Top Racers list I notice that the smallest engine is Ole Endlers 2110ccm with a 11.5 ET.

It`s indeed interesting to read about the 1776ccm making at least 180hp. This is exactly what I want to discuss in this thread - what has been done SO correct with this engine to make it both powerful and reliable? Questions to you, is it a street engine with cooling and running on pump gas?

Best rgs
BB


 



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on November 27, 2007, 13:45:12 pm
[grenade motors! Catastrophic engine failures were not uncommon.

I'm quite sure we can buy parts today that would have blown the Old Guys brains out when it comes to what RPMs they can withstand, Today we can have lighter pistons with lesser drag, stronger and lighter con-rods and so on and the valve train can be lightened like never before. The only thing I can see being the problem with such a engine today is the KNOWHOW, it's hard to come by.. and its the most important ingredients.  ;) 

Don't underestimate the fact that there are far more 11-second true street cars around today than ever before because engine technology has moved on and parts are so readily available.

This is absolutely true... (I guess, I wasn't around :)) But the litre effect is way down, not to many engines putting out significantly more than 100 horse pr liter. If Klingaman stretched his mouse to 8000 (I don't know), he is in the same rpm segment as many other street/strip racers...

It's too easy (and far cheaper) to buy some off the shelf heads from someone like CB that will make good hp. I bet if you paid someone like Fumio (or Jeff Denham) the FULL rate (and don't underestimate the number of hours it takes to do a good job) for doing a set of dynamite 311 heads, you'd be amazed at how much you'd get out of a small motor.

If no one supports these guys, we are actually going back in performance step by step as the know-how is lost.
Cal-look/vw tuning has become a spectator sport it seems, thinking inside the box is the norm, and when you think about it, the California look would not have existed if those early boys just copied what guys had done years before. I bet they also heard their fathers saying "don't waste your money boy!"

"The adventure is outside the box!"  ;)
Thats why I like Monkey Boys intiative with his mouse motor quest

 



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: richie on November 27, 2007, 15:46:08 pm
The internet killed it,its too easy to just copy someone elses recipe now to get a reliable engine that will run 12s and with a bit of work 11s.The fact that it was all trial and error back then,you only read about the succesfull cars & combos,I am sure that to every 11second mouse motor there were a 100 broken ones :o

There are a few hardy people that I know running 12s with less than 1800cc and driving them to the track and back,always on regular pump gas,no fiberglass panels,real steel cars,so it can be done.But i am sure they will keep the specs to themselves as its takes time & effort to achieve this.


cheers richie,uk

"If your not breaking parts your not trying hard enough"


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: stealth67vw on November 27, 2007, 16:12:42 pm
Another thing that helps is the gear box. Kris Klingaman and Mike Smith both used 4.86 ring and pinions and something like 1.70 3rd and 1.31 4th.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: The Ideaman on November 27, 2007, 17:44:08 pm
This is absolutely true... (I guess, I wasn't around Smiley) But the litre effect is way down, not to many engines putting out significantly more than 100 horse pr liter. If Klingaman stretched his mouse to 8000 (I don't know), he is in the same rpm segment as many other street/strip racers...
More like 9500 rpm.  4.86x1.31x26" tire at 9500rpm is about 115mph.  These weren't street cars, but highly strung race motors in full weight cars.  I remember A/MC and B/MC cars at englishtown as a kid.
(http://www.turbocreations.com/fj20/philske20corolla/ke20karpathioss1b.jpg)
I know it isn't a VW, but does anybody remember this car competing?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jim Ratto on November 27, 2007, 18:05:27 pm
The internet killed it,its too easy to just copy someone elses recipe now to get a reliable engine that will run 12s and with a bit of work 11s.The fact that it was all trial and error back then,you only read about the succesfull cars & combos,I am sure that to every 11second mouse motor there were a 100 broken ones :o

There are a few hardy people that I know running 12s with less than 1800cc and driving them to the track and back,always on regular pump gas,no fiberglass panels,real steel cars,so it can be done.But i am sure they will keep the specs to themselves as its takes time & effort to achieve this.


cheers richie,uk

"If your not breaking parts your not trying hard enough"


I agree richie....thank you for posting this. Every "hot rod" VW featured in the mags seems to have the "internet motor" recipe...94 x 82 or 94 x 84, FK8, CB CNC heads, 48IDAs, MSD everything...etc.

I remember how "amazed" some naysayers were about a few of the smaller motors I helped out with. SODA's pump gas, stock-valved 1679, 14.70 on radials, full stock weight car, stock gears raised some eyebrows. Motor ran 40IDFs with 32mm vents. Roger's guys @ Heads Up did the stock valve heads, very conservative porting, SS valves, Bryan ran tall CB manifolds. Cam was like Engle 120 with 1.25's. If we would have gone something like 125, and 48IDAs and half a point more compression, I think it would have gone 13's. I helped screw together a 1776 built with mostly used extras that were collecting spiders and dust, old FI case, Engle 125, 1.25 rockers, Fred Simpson 40 x 35 heads, 48IDAs, old 1-3/4 header. Went 13.01 off trailer in lightened '66 with slicks. Same car with 1914, FK10, 42 x 37 welded 10.5:1 went 12.81.

As far as motors today, if guys wanted to build 149 cu in motors (2.3+L) on the ragged edge for the street, built to the same tune level as KK's motor...personally I think you'd need much larger valves to squeeze 100hp+/liter, meaning moving valves in VW heads or going route of aftermarket castings and having them modified accordingly. Big 560cc+ cylinders are going to want a lot more mixture than 440cc cylinders to run 8000rpm and make 100/liter. Or go the way some guys have and put a turbo on. No offense to anybody, but to me some guys bolt turbos on instead of finding a way to get air into motor on its own. Please don't kick me off the Lounge!!! ;D

I think KS is right too. Without going to an experienced expert and settling for some mass produced heads for monkiboys idea of a 88 x 69, you'd most likely fall way short of making the power, especially across the powerband. SODA's motor was completely driveable, even though it would go 7 thou. Sure, it was cammy, and needed to be spun to 4K to get the most out of it, but it was crisp off idle, no flat spots or garbling or coughing. I think most of that had to do with heads and not being overcammed.

I think a "ragged edge" car/motor would be fun, but its limited use ability would turn me off. I'm still of the "sports car motor" ilk. Get in it after a few hours of detailing, turn key, go scare yourself for hours.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Udo on November 27, 2007, 20:01:44 pm
What i know is that Klingaman had nitrous on the 1776 engine ! I remember the hot VW's articel , i think so . It was the time when Mike Smith did 11 passes with his red 67 street car and 1776 nitrous engine .

Udo


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: SOB/RFH on November 27, 2007, 20:41:10 pm
Mike Smith used N2O while street racing back in the pre sanctioned body days...I remeber someone  (I think Dyno Don) telling about the first time he got down to Nabisco and did beat the heavy hitter V8:s with that stock looking VW.........That was the white car.....and then there was the red car and that was more of a street car (I presume)...........Anyway how can it be that Kris Klingamans car weighted 1770 lbs in race trim and 2020 in street trim....more gasoline?.....It took me years to beat the 12.40 of Chris with my car and it was driven to and back from the track.......true 2020 lbs weight and GUESS WHAT!!! I SHIFTED AT 6500 RPM!!!!! AND WENT THRUE LIGHT UNDER 6K!!! That is what I think is the diffrence between today and yesterday.....The low rpm:s power is made at and the longivty that comes from that!!!!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: BeetleBug on November 27, 2007, 20:53:35 pm
After looking closer at Klingamans 1751ccm engine it`s clear he did not use nitrous. Having punched the numbers in three different ET/HP calculators they all came up with between 186 and 188hp - cool number from a such a small engine. But with a mandatory tear down after 10 passes it was pretty hard core. So that`s the limit using some heavily ported heads from some of the big names in the industry - a little bit over 100hp/litre?

Why? is the old fashion design of our engine the main reason why it`s not possible to get more or is it the way we build them?

BB



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: louisb on November 27, 2007, 20:59:25 pm
After looking closer at Klingamans 1751ccm engine it`s clear he did not use nitrous. Having punched the numbers in three different ET/HP calculators they all came up with between 186 and 188hp - cool number from a such a small engine. But with a mandatory tear down after 10 passes it was pretty hard core. So that`s the limit using some heavily ported heads from some of the big names in the industry - a little bit over 100hp/litre?

Why? is the old fashion design of our engine the main reason why it`s not possible to get more or is it the way we build them?

BB



I would say it is due to the lack of and unwillings to adopt, newer technologies such as roller cams, aftermarket heads and blocks, cams, light valve trains, FI. and yes even turbos. There is also the limitation of the trans to deal with.

--louis


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Bewitched666 on November 27, 2007, 21:27:33 pm
Boy i like this thread,reminds me of my first 1679cc engine.
My stock heads came from Dave Kawell witt ss valves and dual springs.
With a w130 cam and IDA's the engine made some 100 hp.

When i switched to kawells 40x35.5 heads fully ported and polished
en raised compression (12:1) i ran in the 13's with a 4.86 gearbox with superdiff ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: BeetleBug on November 27, 2007, 21:38:21 pm
I would say it is due to the lack of and unwillings to adopt newer technologies

Now that is a statement I find very interesting! So you think there is potential for more power by trying out new technology and know how? How much more do you think is possible?

Best rgs
BB



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jim Ratto on November 28, 2007, 00:15:46 am
I still say guys are not willing to build ticking time bombs.

I don't think guys (on this forum at least  ;D) are interested in going to 52 x 40mm valves and 62mm carbs and so on...to make the big guns spin 9000+

it would be cool to build a sub 1800cc flashbulb motor...somebody do it!



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on November 28, 2007, 00:34:39 am
This
I would say it is due to the lack of and unwillings to adopt, newer technologies such as roller cams, aftermarket heads and blocks, cams, light valve trains, FI. and yes even turbos. There is also the limitation of the trans to deal with.
--louis

You are ofcourse so right you can be.

If you hand over a VW type1 engine to for example a Kawasaki engine designer what could he do with just two valves? With their fancy equipment and sophisticated math, well over 100 horses pr lliter could be expected, but at a lower rpm than you would think... And how about a Nascar engine designer?

But I donít know anyone like that, but I DO know a road racing tuner that made the front page of a international Road racing Magazine. He took a fully factory race tuned Kawa and got it do deliver more torque and hp than the factory did, still within the class rules...! He is a welder during the daytime and works on these bikes in the evenings... his only weapon is a old Norwegian textbook from the fifties and a casio calculator...  the book is called "CarTuning"

I think if these textbooks were more common place in the days before the "internet" deigns... Could this be a way to go back in time? Or is this what everybody does and Iím just in the dark??  ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jim Ratto on November 28, 2007, 00:39:19 am
maybe I am PUI-ing but we need heads with swappable intake port inserts, like carb venturies.  ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Zach Gomulka on November 28, 2007, 02:15:44 am
I think 100hp per liter with this old architecture is asking a lot- especially if you want to drive it often! What I think makes a good powerful street engine is one that makes 1hp and 1 ft/lb of torque per cubic inch of displacement. Like a 1679 that makes 102hp and 102ft/lbs of torque. If you want a little more, try getting that 102hp/102tq to the rollers. Sounds like fun to me ::)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Udo on November 28, 2007, 06:45:59 am
WHY WAS A GUY FASTER BACK THEN USING A MOUSE ENGINE THAN MOST GUYS ARE TODAY?

One big reason the old motors did produce a lot of horsepower for their size was down to superior head work. When you didn't have a range if aftermarket heads to choose from, there was no option but to extract the maximum from factory 311 castings.

Hi Keith

This is why i still gather 311 heads .  :)

Udo


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: BeetleBug on November 28, 2007, 09:20:21 am
I still say guys are not willing to build ticking time bombs. I don't think guys (on this forum at least  ;D) are interested in going to 52 x 40mm valves and 62mm carbs and so on...to make the big guns spin 9000+

it would be cool to build a sub 1800cc flashbulb motor...somebody do it!

If I understand your reply correctly you`re saying that we would probably need to rev the engine to the extreme, use big valves and high dollar parts to be able to reach the "next" level? And the engine would still be a ticking bomb due to "stretching the limits"?

JHU and Louisb is in a way turning this thread in the direction I was hoping for; what will happen if we are willing to adapt to newer technologies and use the theories available today? Will we still end up with the same results we see today? If the answer to that question is YES then we know we`re doing something right and has been doing so for many years. But if the answer is NO and we reach the "next level"......well, then we have learnt something new.

Yes - it would be cool to build a small engine with the above in mind and see the result.

Best rgs
BB


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: folkevogn on November 28, 2007, 10:25:55 am
Whats your defenition of "the next level"??

In my opinion going for bigger carbs,valves,displacment...etc is NOT the next level, its just pushing the limits of whats possible to put on a type 1 engine. I think this is one of the main reason why we aren`t reaching the next level. Most people just go bigger and hope for the best, bigger isn`t always better as we all know.

To me "the next level" is FINESSE! F.ex take a 2007ccm that produces 183 hp at 7500rpm, if you can make the same engine produce 239 hp at 7500rpm then your taking it to the next level in my opinion. And I dont mean that you should slap on a turbo or EFI, because to me thats not TRUE cal-look.(but that another discussion  ;))


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on November 28, 2007, 12:14:51 pm
The bigger better route is the racers route I feel, they donít mind having huge valves, changing springs after one event and so on. That path left on that route is rather short when it comes to the type1 platform, due to the dimensions of the poor thing.

But surely thatís NOT what we are talking about, is it??
I thought we were talking about getting the most out of a mouse engine, sure you could use the same approach to a bigger lump and get more, but that is for the racers.
The reason I was curious about Klingaman was because he must have had super nice heads, and he got high Volumetric Efficiency out of that engine. Sure he used a race cam and high revs, but I think that engine with a lesser cam would STILL be a efficient thing. ?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: BeetleBug on November 28, 2007, 13:09:15 pm
Thank you for keeping the focus JHU.

Are you saying that you believe it is possible to build a effiecent little thing without adding race thinking in the mix? And by efficient I mean 100hp/litre.



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: The Ideaman on November 28, 2007, 15:46:30 pm
Taylor Walton is building a motor for NHRA ss/fs.  It will be a rollercammed 94x60 motor with Heads Up! heads and a dry sump oiling system.  He's hoping for mid 11's and the record.  They have many hours of flowbench work done.  I sold him the 67 shell he's using to base the project on.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jim Ratto on November 28, 2007, 18:00:21 pm
I still say guys are not willing to build ticking time bombs. I don't think guys (on this forum at least  ;D) are interested in going to 52 x 40mm valves and 62mm carbs and so on...to make the big guns spin 9000+

it would be cool to build a sub 1800cc flashbulb motor...somebody do it!

If I understand your reply correctly you`re saying that we would probably need to rev the engine to the extreme, use big valves and high dollar parts to be able to reach the "next" level? And the engine would still be a ticking bomb due to "stretching the limits"?

JHU and Louisb is in a way turning this thread in the direction I was hoping for; what will happen if we are willing to adapt to newer technologies and use the theories available today? Will we still end up with the same results we see today? If the answer to that question is YES then we know we`re doing something right and has been doing so for many years. But if the answer is NO and we reach the "next level"......well, then we have learnt something new.

Yes - it would be cool to build a small engine with the above in mind and see the result.

Best rgs
BB

Hi BB!
Yeah, I got off topic, sorry. I kind of misunderstood what guys were getting at. Seems everything today is BIG CC, no matter if it is race or hot street. Which is ok. Not knocking that.
I would be VERY impressed to see a smaller displacement street engine (i.e. 1679, 1776, 1835...) tuned to the level that would get it into the 12 sec slot.....but still be "streetable" (no need to get into a "discussion about what streetable" is....my god, has THAT been over-argued!!!!), however a guy would go about it...it would take brains and patience. I think it comes down to reducing weight of reciprocating parts, reducing drag and windage, and making heads (and matching cam to) that have airspeed and flow characteristics to match bore x stroke and rpm needed (remember hp is a product of rpm). As you all know, you need extreme valve timing to get rpms into stratosphere, along with light stuff, and high CR to get most of cam timing. I keep threatening to build something like this, I have my old 94mm German case, and some other junk laying around..... ::)

I know a 1914 isn't a mouse motor, it is more like a squirrel.. but how about a 1914 with 14:1, FK87, 1.5 rockers, 44 x 37 Super Flows and rest of the usual crap. 6lb Crown flywheel, aftermarket 5.352 rods, lightweight wrist pins, manicured skirts on 'A' pistons, relieved case webs....bla bla bla... I'd have to PUI to think of more stuff.  ;D

Key point is: matching head flow and airspeed and cam profile to get to the rpms you need, without making a slug. And keeping stuff as light and as free spinning as possible.

Bye for now



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jim Ratto on November 28, 2007, 22:01:16 pm
here's a question for the opinionated and technically minded....

if you HAD to choose one scenario (I know they're neither ideal), which would it be?

"over"-ported heads (ports too large and lazy for cc and use of motor), but with conservative cam timing (like FK8?)

"conservatively" ported heads (maybe cross section is too small for top rpm for cc), but with much hotter cam...like FK87 (275-280' @ .050")?

Which one would you choose?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: louisb on November 28, 2007, 22:23:52 pm

"conservatively" ported heads (maybe cross section is too small for top rpm for cc), but with much hotter cam...like FK87 (275-280' @ .050")?

You could always tune the engine to be liveable at some rpm through cam advance, timing, induction and exhaust. Not much you can do about port velocity on heads that are too big.


JHU and Louisb is in a way turning this thread in the direction


I have obviously failed somehow.  ;)

Just my thoughs,

--louis


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Lee.C on November 30, 2007, 01:23:12 am
"The adventure is outside the box!"  Wink
Thats why I like Monkey Boys intiative with his mouse motor quest

Thanks for the props JHU  ;) :)

I am not too sure about 100bhp per litre cos thats 167.9bhp for my planned mouse motor  :o BUT I do think we need to start
 "thinking outside the box" a perfect example was Richies idea about narrowing the Cam/crank gear - Now thats what I'm talking about  ;) :)

Too many people these days listen to those people who say "what you wanna do is........."   or "what you need is......" and copy other  peoples combo's  but never REALLY know how the whole engine is working together - this is just my 2 cents guys  ;) :)

Its all about going back to the true basics of "Blueprinting"  :) 


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: BeetleBug on November 30, 2007, 09:33:45 am
here's a question for the opinionated and technically minded....

if you HAD to choose one scenario (I know they're neither ideal), which would it be?

"over"-ported heads (ports too large and lazy for cc and use of motor), but with conservative cam timing (like FK8?)

"conservatively" ported heads (maybe cross section is too small for top rpm for cc), but with much hotter cam...like FK87 (275-280' @ .050")?

Which one would you choose?


Mr Ratto,
Why choose between pest and cholera? And how do you know your heads are "over" ported.

Best rgs
BB


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: ESH on November 30, 2007, 10:20:58 am
I asked in the other thread if it is possible to reach the 100hp/l limit without having to spend a fortune and I have received info that this is impossible to reach - especially if you want a true street engine.

The answer to the first part of that question is obviously yes, Formula Vee engines of 1600cc have put out something in the order of 180bhp for years but the answer to  the second part is go try it, Lee/Kalle talk to G.A.C. (I can get you the phone number) who have been building this type of motor for quite a while and let us know how it's doing in 5 years (or let's say 30K miles time). It'll be a interesting experiment and I'm pleased to see someone's going to try it!

 :)



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: John Maher on November 30, 2007, 12:44:36 pm
In my experience I find itís possible to achieve an output of 90bhp/litre on what I regard as a perfectly streetable engine eg 2276cc making 204bhp... i.e. a street/strip motor. Thatís equivalent to a 1679cc engine making 150bhp while still retaining a semblance of drivability. Is that possible with a 1679? Definitely, but it wonít be as relaxed a drive as the 2276cc motor.

Stepping up to 100bhp/litre is certainly achievable but will start to stretch the boundaries of what might be regarded as streetable by some, most definitely in the case of the 1679cc motor. All depends on your definition of 'street motor'. If both engines were being built purely for the strip, you should be aiming a lot higher than 100bhp/litre but thereís no way theyíd be getting used on the street.

Larger motors will always make for a better street/strip engine because you can build in a good mix of mid-range torque and peak bhp. For best performance on the track you need power rather than torque and the mods required to get really good power out of a small n/a motor (big valves and ports, long duration cam etc) will push the rpm range sky-high, which has the effect of killing torque in the low and mid-range rpmóexactly where you need it for good performance on the street.

The small cc, high hp motors from the Ď70s and early Ď80s mostly came about as a result of NHRA class rules, where permitted engine size was dictated by vehicle weight, which gave a lighter car with a well designed small capacity engine an advantage over the larger engined heavyweights. IMO itís only when we see a racing class with a well defined set of restrictive rules that great developments take place. It focuses the mind and encourages people to push things to the limit. We saw it again with the introduction of PRA Pro Stock and Super Street. That was the first time VW n/a engines were being built where 48IDAs became the restricting factor and prompted the development of larger carbs and even some alternative induction systems etc etc. Racing technology always ends up trickling down to the street.

As an extreme example, take a look at NHRA Pro Stock 500 cubic inch engines. Normally aspirated, pushrods, two valves per cylinder and a pair of 4 barrel carbs. Working within those restrictions for decades has seen continual development push power towards 1400bhpÖ.. thatís more than 165bhp/litre. Thatís equivalent to a n/a 1679cc engine making 277bhp!

Only problem with working within a very defined set of rules is the optimised combinations that work so well on one particular engine wonít necessarily transfer across to another engine being built to a different specification. Take British Formula Vee. They use a 1285cc single port engine, with stock valve sizes and make around 100bhp. They work incredibly well considering the limitations of the rules and are a good example of what continued development can deliver, but bolt one into a road going car and you wonít get very far. Also, apply the bhp/litre formula and you fall well short of what might be regarded as a great performing street engine i.e. approx 80bhp/litre so it doesn't work as a great model for a high powered street car.

Sometimes the focus is too much on the peak bhp figure. The car that performs the best on the track is the one that makes best AVERAGE power in the rpm range it sees through each gear. It's the area under the curve that counts.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: folkevogn on November 30, 2007, 13:24:20 pm
Quote

Sometimes the focus is too much on the peak bhp figure. The car that performs the best on the track is the one that makes best AVERAGE power in the rpm range it sees through each gear. It's the area under the curve that counts.

This is a VERY VERY good point John!
Alot of people seems to forget this(including me) ::)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on November 30, 2007, 13:51:38 pm
Stepping up to 100bhp/litre is certainly achievable but will start to stretch the boundaries of what might be regarded as streetable by some, most definitely in the case of the 1679cc motor.

First of all, THANKS for a brilliant post!

I'm curious as to why a smaller engine would suffer more from "efficiency" than a bigger one? Surely the weight of the reciprocating parts must be less in a engine of smaller volume? (If this isn't so there must be a optimal size somewhere where the weight of the parts (wear) meets optiamal output?)

What do you think the "next level" is John?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: John Maher on November 30, 2007, 16:07:00 pm

First of all, THANKS for a brilliant post!

I'm curious as to why a smaller engine would suffer more from "efficiency" than a bigger one? Surely the weight of the reciprocating parts must be less in a engine of smaller volume? (If this isn't so there must be a optimal size somewhere where the weight of the parts (wear) meets optiamal output?)


Generally speaking, reducing the weight of components won't make any difference to power output (assuming all parts concerened are capable of doing their job). Lighter parts, such as rods, crank, flywheel, pistons have less rotational inertia which allows the engine to accelerate more quickly from one rpm point to another, so performance on the track is improved while measured power remains the same. That's why one 200bhp engine can be faster than another 200hp engine. Same goes for vehicle weight and aerodynamics. An improvement in either will make for better ETs with no change in engine power.


What do you think the "next level" is John?


It all depends on intended use for the engine. From a racerís point of view I believe a major limiting factor is the VWís stroke to bore ratio. Look at any serious n/a professional race series (F1, NHRA Pro Stock etc) and youíll find they use a large bore in comparison to crank stroke.

Increasing bore and reducing stroke delivers two significant benefits to a high rpm race engineÖ  the shorter stroke reduces piston speed and the larger bore makes room for bigger valvesÖ..

Imagine a theoretical drag race series dictating a maximum capacity of 2276cc (normally 82mm x 94mm). If the rules allow any combination of bore and stroke Iíd be looking at say a 101.6mm bore rather than 94mm, and reducing stroke from 82mm to 70mm (2270cc).  A set of suitably modified 101.6mm heads would easily outflow anything you could fit on a 94mm bore engine.

Second major gain is a reduction in piston speed. At 7000rpm, an 82mm stroke motor has an average piston speed of 3766 feet per minute. Reduce stroke, the piston has less distance to travel in the same time and speed falls to 3215 feet/min for the 70mm crank at the same rpm. Therefore higher rpm is on the cards with the 70mm stroke and the bigger ports and valves of the 101.6mm heads can make some serious power, assuming theyíre teamed up with suitable cam, induction, exhaust etc

Horsepower lost to friction is also a factor with approx 75% of an engine's friction hp being caused by ring to cylinder contact. The reduction in stroke more than offsets the extra contact area of the larger diameter rings so more power is being used to turn the engine than being lost as heat.

Currently thereís no real incentive to persuade someone to build a short stroke, big bore n/a engine because having a higher bhp/litre ratio isn't going to win you the race if the guy in the next lane has more total bhp. But if you're looking to maximise bhp/litre, IMO this would be the route to explore.

In the meantime max stroke/max bore engines will dominate but at the expense of bhp/litre and unless something comes along to cap engine size, the obvious route is to increase capacity by whatever means practical so naturally people will continue to opt for the longest stroke crank they can physically fit in the block. The fact remains, for a tractable street motor you can't beat an increase in displacement.

If you want an easy route to force more air through your engine, make lots of power, have good driveability on the street and bump up bhp/litre, fit mappable EFI and a turbocharger.  ;)




Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: louisb on November 30, 2007, 16:23:14 pm
Wow, there is some great information there. Thanks for posting that.

--louis


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: richie on November 30, 2007, 16:32:11 pm
If you want an easy route to force more air through your engine, make lots of power, have good driveability on the street and bump up bhp/litre, fit mappable EFI and a turbocharger.  ;)




Afternoon John :)

So you think that would work :o ;D

cheers richie,uk


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: louisb on November 30, 2007, 16:38:41 pm
If you want an easy route to force more air through your engine, make lots of power, have good driveability on the street and bump up bhp/litre, fit mappable EFI and a turbocharger.  ;)




Afternoon John :)

So you think that would work :o ;D

cheers richie,uk

 ::) 

Anyone can make a turbo engine go fast.  :P ;) ;D

--louis


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: BeetleBug on November 30, 2007, 16:40:59 pm
If you want an easy route to force more air through your engine, make lots of power, have good driveability on the street and bump up bhp/litre, fit mappable EFI and a turbocharger.  ;)




Afternoon John :)

So you think that would work :o ;D

cheers richie,uk

Probably would but thats cheating you know  ;)

Thank you for your post John. Very interesting info!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on December 02, 2007, 00:15:17 am
All very interesting this, clearly enthusiasm for small cc engines is alive and well in these parts.

For my part I think you need to have a realistic expectation if youíre going to head down the small cc na rapid street car route. Itís a fairly obvious thing to say but the faster you want to go the more difficult it becomes to keep the car streetable (not that this is unique to small cc engines). That said personally Iíve always thought when I want to drive my car its to go for a raz not just bumble about in it wishing it was more tractable comfortable, quiet etc. Its not that the car is unreliable but you need to want to drive it. As with all things there are compromises to make and we all draw the line at a different point, hence the constant argument about what a street car is.

I for one am keen to chase the na 100bhp per litre mark on pump gas, if for nothing else just for the achievement. Although as John has suggested above itís not all about bhp. To turn a good ET particularly when you chose a small cc option, maximising other areas is even more important then when you choose a more powerful combination.

Interestingly though Iím not quite sure itís as difficult as most people might have you believe to get to a point where you can go quicker than most people with a similar combination. I think most people are content with a combination once itís in the back of their car and running ok. Then thereís the likes of the people that frequent this forum who take a strange fascination in spending lots of time, effort and often money to achieve more with less.

I run a na 1776cc because I like the small engine combination and itís a common boring old size that most people pass by on there way to bigger and ďbetterĒ things.

The biggest problem we all face is the lack of R&D as the majority of us developing our combinations do not have hours of backed up results at the track and dyno. All in all though looking at some of the numbers people are turning on here looks like people are doing pretty well.

Just for the record does anyone know how fast people have been with a na 1776cc motor (regular 69 x 90.5 combination) in a race or street car in the past, as it would be nice to know what to aim for.

Glad to see the small motors are still chasing down the big guns!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: BeetleBug on December 02, 2007, 00:23:40 am
Glad to see the small motors are still chasing down the big guns!

Still chasing?.... Soon they will be ahead.   ;)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Lee.C on December 02, 2007, 01:11:15 am
Glad to see the small motors are still chasing down the big guns!

Still chasing?.... Soon they will be ahead.   ;)

Dam Right  ;) :)

also some very good points Peter - I willbe doing a LOT of research for my mouse motor  :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on December 02, 2007, 14:39:28 pm
Generally speaking, reducing the weight of components won't make any difference to power output (assuming all parts concerened are capable of doing their job). Lighter parts, such as rods, crank, flywheel, pistons have less rotational inertia which allows the engine to accelerate more quickly from one rpm point to another, so performance on the track is improved while measured power remains the same.

This is obviously both right and interesting, but its not really a answer to what I asked about, or rather what I tried to ask about (English is hard). I find everyone saying that a smaler engine would suffer more from being efficient, and by efficient I'm talking about good cylinder filling and thereby realizing the power and the torque the engine size is capable of.

higher rpm is on the cards with the 70mm stroke and the bigger ports and valves of the 101.6mm heads can make some serious power, assuming theyíre teamed up with suitable cam, induction, exhaust etc

I think this also could be used as a pro "short stroke engine" argument, but what I really is aiming at is the later part of you sentence, the "teaming" up sentence.
As soon as you mention rising the efficency, people reach for the Alarm button, maked drivability/long-livety.

Are we really at the breakpoint for efficiency and longlivety?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on December 02, 2007, 22:54:48 pm
Hello!

After following this very interesting thread I have decided to build a "mouse motor" with almost only original parts and by using some simple math and sience.

Engine spec:

Case: original AS41
Crank:German stock
Rods:German stock
Pistons:JE 86mm 24mm comp hight
Cylinders:Stock 85,5mm honed to 86mm
Heads:043 40x32mm valves
Compression:12,0:1
Rockers:Jpm two stud 1,5:1 ratio
P-rods:Manton 3/8" cromoly
Cam:Fk45in/Fk44 ex
Cam gears:Magnum
Oilpump:26mm
Deepsump:1,5lit
Flywheel:180mm stock lightend
Clutch disc:cush lock
Pressure plate:Kennedy
Header:Custom made 1 5/8" tuned length
Manifolds:Custom made tuned length(second order)
Carbs:IDA 48

The most expensive parts in this concept is the JE pistons, but I feel they are nessecery if the calculated power should be optained.

All the parts will of course be inspected and modified(linebored,shuffle pinned,balanced,fullflowed etc..........) to take the higher output.

Heads:

The heads will recive a little welding in some areas and ported to achive as high flow as possible in the limitations of the calculated port size.

Cam:

I will use a cam with split duration, fk45 intake and fk44 exhaust.The less ex duration will give a superior midrange without loosing top end, if the ex port flows enough, a good choise when using a "Hi-Po" engine on
the street.

I have decided to use a 40mm intake valve because of the 86mm bore, and the valve will not be moved to the center of the cylinder,a bigger valve will be to much shrouded from the cylinder wall.

Calculation:

The formula I will use to see how much rpm the 40mm valve will be good for is:

RPM=3300000xPort dia xPort dia/BorexBore xStroke

This formula is based on a mean port velocity at 110m/s or(360ft/s), and the Port dia is the smallest area in the port.

As this engine is going to be used as a street engine the smallest port size I will use is 0,88 x valve dia(0,88x40=35,2mm)

RPM calculation:3300000x35,2x35,2/86x86x69=8012rpm

The teoretical rpm where peak power will be is 8012 rpm.

Now we have the RPM,diplacement but not the Bmep, a realistic Bmep is between 12-13 bar(171-185psi), so I choose 12,5bar Bmep.With this information we can calculate the POWER of the "mouse motor".

Formula:

P=Displ x rpm x Bmep/910

POWER=1,603 x 8012 x 12,5 / 910 = 176,4hp

This is the power that could be expected from the "mouse motor" if everything is properly done.


With properly done I mean everything like heads,compression,cam timing,exhaust length,intake length,friction etc.....................  .

I will start on this project in the next week but as I run a company it will take some time to finish it, probably in mars 2008.

During that time I will keep you updated with pictures and info as the project continous.

When the "mouse motor" is done there will be som serious dyno testing and tuning, hopefully we will see the numbers that i come up with in the calculations above.

To me,this is what I belive is "Thinking outside the box" and "The next level".


With Best Regards

Johannes Persson
JP Motorsport
Sweden




Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: lawrence on December 02, 2007, 23:13:56 pm
Way to go, Johannes and everyone else who is attempting to build a mouse motor! Everyone, please keep the lounge updated with pictures, specifications, etc. This is interesting stuff. While not trying to sound emotional, attempting to build a mouse motor that will survive is a fitting tribute to our cal-look forefathers who did the same with less technology at their finger tips.

I want to do something like this one day.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on December 03, 2007, 14:21:06 pm
WOW, what else can I say? That sounds like a hefty output of such a small capacity!
I just hope you keep us informed when you start building this powerful dwarf. This small/original parts approach has old school written all over it, except for those nice pistons, (BTW how much would one loose by using stock pistons with their fat piston rings? Or is it to avoid "ring flutter")
And it's just what I expected, the big guys use simple formulas to "home" in on the target, but you are the first one that has been willing to show them. I will have a good time checking over my engine with these formulas when I have an night free.

attempting to build a mouse motor that will survive is a fitting tribute to our cal-look forefathers who did the same with less technology at their finger tips.

I think you are right Lawrence, another big thing was the lack of over the shelf parts, it will be cool to see all these Mouse motors beeing built, and that makes me wonder about thing John Mahler said about racing beeing one of the most impotant ways to push the limits.
How about a MOUSE class? Alternatively could we design a class that would push forward the "street" engine? Limit both the RPM and the volume?





Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: christophe on December 03, 2007, 15:42:35 pm
Like JHU said....WOW!!!!

But where the 3300000 are coming from in your formula?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: BeetleBug on December 03, 2007, 21:24:16 pm
Johannes, this is for sure one build thread I`m really looking forward to read and study. For us not so familiar with the formulas used could you please take some time to explain them. Thanks,

Best rgs
BB


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jim Ratto on December 03, 2007, 21:37:35 pm
Johannes, this is for sure one build thread I`m really looking forward to read and study. For us not so familiar with the formulas used could you please take some time to explain them. Thanks,

Best rgs
BB

a great read on this topic...and overall engine tuning techniques.... Four Stroke Performance Tuning by AG Bell. Covers more subject matter than any other book I have gone through. Excellent chapter on camshafts and why we advance, retard, and so on. Seat duration vs. .050", etc. Valve diameter vs. cylinder displacement and use of engine....I highly suggest it.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: folkevogn on December 03, 2007, 21:56:33 pm
I`m speatchless!! :o
MAN...I love this tread!  :)
I hope that one day, I also will be able to build an engine without to mutch "swaging" :)


But where the 3300000 are coming from in your formula?

I`m just guessing but 3300000 in the rpm equation and 910 in the power equation is probably constants(a locked number) that gives you the desired term after the answer in your equations(f.ex rpm or hp)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: JS on December 03, 2007, 22:34:23 pm
175hp in a  1600ccm  :o
Iīm REALLY looking forward to this!  ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on December 03, 2007, 23:20:39 pm
Four Stroke Performance Tuning by AG Bell. Covers more subject matter than any other book I have gone through. Excellent chapter on camshafts and why we advance, retard, and so on. Seat duration vs. .050", etc. Valve diameter vs. cylinder displacement and use of engine....I highly suggest it.


Thanks, thats a good tip!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on December 04, 2007, 09:02:21 am
Hello,

The 3300000 and 910 are constants created from many other formulas which have fixed numbers in them.

Exemple:

To calculate the area of a circle I use this formula : dia x dia x 3,14/4, the 3,14 and 4 are always there so you could "bake" them together 3,14 / 4=0,785 and there you have a constant,the new formula is: dia x dia x 0,785=area.

Regards
Johannes


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: christophe on December 04, 2007, 09:37:27 am
OK. Thanks.
Will you put this engine on your blue sleeper and race it this summer?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: n2o on December 04, 2007, 15:52:15 pm
Hi Johannes,

Is there any smartness behind your choice of compression height? What does it mean if you move the weight of the piston up or down over the rod? I do understand choice of compression height, when you have long stroke, but in this engine is there any gain?

Thanks

Roar Lunde


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on December 04, 2007, 16:38:29 pm
Hi Roar,

Perhaps you already no about this, but this is the reasons.

1: You do not get that much piston "rattle" when the the piston pin is closer to the rings,means less blow by.
2: It is very important to get as short push rods and cyl studs as possible, when rpm is going up a shorter(stiffer,lighter) is extremely important and the rgidity of the cylinder and heads are improved a lot, (better valve control).You also end up with a narrower engine that fits better in your car , win win situation.

Regards
Johannes



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: folkevogn on December 04, 2007, 23:54:43 pm
Now we have the RPM,diplacement but not the Bmep, a realistic Bmep is between 12-13 bar(171-185psi), so I choose 12,5bar Bmep.With this information we can calculate the POWER of the "mouse motor".
Is it possible to calulate the Bmep?Whats the reason that you estimate the Bmep to be 12-13bar(why not 10 or 15?)Is it link between CR and Bmep?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: John Maher on December 05, 2007, 12:47:20 pm
Now we have the RPM,diplacement but not the Bmep, a realistic Bmep is between 12-13 bar(171-185psi), so I choose 12,5bar Bmep.With this information we can calculate the POWER of the "mouse motor".
Is it possible to calulate the Bmep?Whats the reason that you estimate the Bmep to be 12-13bar(why not 10 or 15?)Is it link between CR and Bmep?

BMEP (brake mean effective pressure) is a useful way of comparing efficiency of various engines, regardless of capacity or manufacturer.

BMEP formula below calculates AVERAGE pressure (psi) acting on the piston during the entire four stroke cycle.

BMEP =(2471.174 x Torque) / engine cc

To find torque from Johannes calculations (176.4bhp @ 8012 rpm)....

Torque (ftlb) = (bhp x 5252) / RPM

so....... 

Torque = (176.4 x 5252) / 8012 = 115.6ftlb  i.e 115.6ftlb @ 8012rpm

Plug the torque value into the BMEP formula and you have...

BMEP =(2474.174 x 115.6ftlb) / 1602cc = 178.5psi = 12.3 bar

The maths and physics used to calculate the engine's power potential are sound. Now it's simply a matter of making it reality.

Very interesting project. Looking forward to the seeing the results.





Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: K-Roc on December 05, 2007, 19:44:05 pm

The formula I will use to see how much rpm the 40mm valve will be good for is:

RPM=3300000xPort dia xPort dia/BorexBore xStroke

This formula is based on a mean port velocity at 110m/s or(360ft/s), and the Port dia is the smallest area in the port.



Hi, this calculation above ( I believe) is used to determine the port velocity as compared to a measurment on a Pitot Tube not the actual .55 Mach, or  613 Ft/second that some other caculations use,

 Like this Example

RPM = ( FPS * CA ) / ( Bore * Bore * Stroke * .00353 )

where;
RPM = point of desired Peak HP
FPS = Feet per Second  or 613.975
CA = Cross-Sectional Area in Square Inches (smallest measured)


FPS = ( Bore * Bore * Stroke * RPM * .00353 ) / CA


CA = ( Bore * Bore * Stroke * RPM * .00353 ) / FPS


( I just wanted to point that out in case some folks are confused by reading various formulas...)

Thanks,


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Udo on December 05, 2007, 19:44:50 pm
We had 1600 cc engines up to 130 hp and 1776 cc up to 150 hp in the mid 80's . That was a lot of fun to race against the bigger cc engines . But at that time we only worked with german camshafts . Today there should be some more power on those engines  :)

Udo


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jim Ratto on December 05, 2007, 20:17:48 pm
once you get the small cc engine to produce 85 or 100hp per liter, which may equate to 165 hp or so, what about making the hp work in a Type 1? "Work" meaning having a fast street car from light to light, getting on highway, and also getting down the strip faster than your neighbor?

I think things to consider are gearing to make the engine "work" and to take adavantage of torque multiplication of "closer" gears, since the engine itself is going to give up a wide torque spread. I don't think first and second need to be wall climbers, in fact a slightly taller 1st on a 4.37 r/p might be the trick, to allow the car to get some distance through the rpm.

Unsprung weight is a biggie too. Big heavy wheels and tires are gonna slow a little motor way down. ERCOs are a must I would guess.....



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on December 06, 2007, 16:33:33 pm
Hi,
At the moment I am at the PRI show Orlando Florida and will be back in business 11/12.

Regards
Johannes Persson


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Bewitched666 on December 06, 2007, 20:13:14 pm
Mail us some sun overhere in holland Johannes ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on December 09, 2007, 22:06:04 pm
From my experience I would say Jim is on the money. As I suggested previously the ďcombinationĒ of engine, gearbox and car becomes far more important when there is less slack available with the motor. I think Iíve got some decent ratios in the box and have saved weight where I can (within my own constraints) so my interior is more race car than comfy Cal Looker but its drivable to the track and back and has turned a best of 12.44 @ 105mph (without the fan belt and with a stinger and slicks) from a regular 69x90.5 1776.

Winter plans hope to see me going a bit quicker next year but time will tell, as progress has been slow over the years. I remember racing Richie in 2001 (I think), it was my first time out with the car, he ran 12.8ish (his first 12 if I remember) and I ran a 13.0 but here we are 6 years later and he is down to 9.7s and Iím still in the mid 12ís!

It will be interesting to see how people get on with there winter plans and see the numbers from the dyno sessions and more importantly at the track, as the Dyno figures are for the bench racers and mag features, itís the ET that counts (IMHO).

One thing Jim was wrong about though, the car has gone much quicker with BRMís than it did with the Ercoís so Iíll be sticking to the mouldy old mags for now!

Just wondered if anyone has had any thoughts on how quickly people have gone with a na 1776 in the past (race and street cars),  Iím sure there has been plenty of quick cars over the years, so if any one can recall a few cars and numbers I would appreciate it.

Happy winter tinkering to you all.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on December 11, 2007, 12:33:40 pm
Slightly off target but Brian Hyerstay (not sure about the spelling) runs a 1679 g/dragster into the low nines in the US and is said to produce around 220HP and goes through the lights at 11,000 rpm! Not sure it would be the best engine combination in a street sedan though, but that is a fair dollop of HP from a 1679. Check out the bugin 32 DVD as there are a few runs shown the rail is called superior steel. Needless to say it sounds bonkers! It was also featured in HotVWs in 2000 I think so those who have a back catalogue might like to take a look and post it up here for the record. If I remember rightly there were credits to the Bergs, the Eversons and Mr Klingerman, so there are a lot of proper people involved.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: ESH on December 11, 2007, 13:31:36 pm
...Brian Hyerstay (not sure about the spelling) runs a 1679 g/dragster into the low nines in the US and is said to produce around 220HP and goes through the lights at 11,000 rpm! Not sure it would be the best engine combination in a street sedan though...

I heard of a nine second dragster (runs at Englishtown, NJ) which has a naturally aspirated motor of around 1900cc but pulling low nines out of a 1679 is quite something. That said I suspect getting that motor to the shops would be "quite something" too!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on December 11, 2007, 14:14:22 pm
I think it was no nonsense 9.25 or similar so like you say a major achievement, I think the turning circle and the air shifted trans might present a few problems in the supermarket car park as well!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on December 11, 2007, 15:40:06 pm
Just had a quick look at the BugIn 32 DVD, if you have it check out 58 mins and 45 seconds and listen to a 1679 at 11,000 rpm really does sound great! Actually it sounds really good on tick over as well. You guy's building 1679's have a lot to live up to, but Iím looking forward to hearing some little screamers at EBI2.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: ESH on December 11, 2007, 21:46:43 pm
... if you have it check out 58 mins and 45 seconds and listen to a 1679 at 11,000 rpm really does sound great...

You need to talk to Mike Ishiko next time round, he has some interesting small motor information. They're retarding the ignition at ten five and then letting it run out some more. Some crazy a$$ stuff and all very clever!  8)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Ole on December 12, 2007, 10:53:29 am
Here's another mouse-motor:

It's Siegfried Volland's Autocross engine, raced at the European Autocross Championship in the early 80's.

(http://blogsimages.skynet.be/images/000/677/333_f7797952d1a529c9cfdabf6363233f76.JPG)

I don't know much about this engine, I was told it's a 1585cc (69x85.5) and that it makes (made) about 160 horses...

It has a Kugelfischer mechanical injection, KRE throttle bodies (IDA-size), Superflow heads, Autocraft rockers and a big dry-sump oil pump.

I hope some day we'll find the time to put it back into service and fire it up again... I can already hear it... ::)



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jim Ratto on December 12, 2007, 17:03:08 pm
I think all of us would be very impressed with a 1679cc that made 150hp, wouldn't we? In the right car, driven in anger, that ought to equate to low, low 13's, maybe high 12's. Myself, I wouldn't be so worried about the timeslip...if it scares the hair off of you when you push the go pedal, you've done a good job.
I think a Lounge "Engine of the Year" bit would be cool....hp vs. displacement vs. longevity vs...dare I say it, fuel consumption. Kind of like an index of thermal efficiency.



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: K-Roc on December 12, 2007, 17:10:06 pm
Slightly off target but Brian Hyerstay (not sure about the spelling) runs a 1679 g/dragster into the low nines in the US and is said to produce around 220HP and goes through the lights at 11,000 rpm! Not sure it would be the best engine combination in a street sedan though, but that is a fair dollop of HP from a 1679. Check out the bugin 32 DVD as there are a few runs shown the rail is called superior steel. Needless to say it sounds bonkers! It was also featured in HotVWs in 2000 I think so those who have a back catalogue might like to take a look and post it up here for the record. If I remember rightly there were credits to the Bergs, the Eversons and Mr Klingerman, so there are a lot of proper people involved.

I believe he was running welded 043 Castings, 42 X 37.5 Steve Timms heads at that time,  I will se if I can get him to post some info,
( Wait to you see what he has coming down the pipe.......)  He want's the NHRA record back!

K-Roc,


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on December 13, 2007, 13:27:12 pm
Ole, Interesting cooling on that auto cross motor, I wonder how long the races were as the SF's are not the best a keeping the temps down, but it obviously worked and when you consider the motor gets a good hammering for the race duration....... I wonder with the cooling effect of bio fuels if the regular squirrel fans would be good enough to control temps on the street? Anyone fancy being the guinea pig?

Jim makes a good point, in all this high octane talk we should not forget the fun. Its not all about the numbers, a good razz in your street car thatís got a bit of a sting in the tale is all you really need to make the world look a bit brighter! 12's with 150 hp is possible I would say, assuming the box has the right ratios and the car has been on a bit of a diet, not to mention the driver!

K-Roc I've just looked at the Bugin 32 DVD and you're right they are stock looking heads (externally). It would be good to hear from Brian on here as he clearly has his house in order and he must be paving the way with HP for a 1679 flat four. If he is prepared to share some information (especially if he is moving on) Iím sure there will be plenty of people on here who would like to listen to what he has to say.

The way this small engine thing has taken off we could end up with 16 car heads up 1679 field at EBI2, I might even have to sling my big bore 90.5's and step up to some 88's! That said if Brian jumps over the pond and enters I think we're all doomed.




Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on December 13, 2007, 13:31:22 pm
Just noticed this thread has nearly reached 1679 views, which is quite fitting given the topic!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Zach Gomulka on December 13, 2007, 17:14:20 pm
I remember Brians 1679 dragster used custom 5" Carrillo rods... 1.84:1 rod ratio...


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: The Ideaman on December 13, 2007, 18:37:02 pm
Yes, and it had welded VW style heads, too.  If I remember right, the G/D record got killed by the "Ladybug" dragster from New Jersey.  It had a much bigger motor by the Aragona's.  Taylor Walton talks with Brian on occasion.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: ESH on December 14, 2007, 10:08:15 am
...If I remember right, the G/D record got killed by the "Ladybug" dragster from New Jersey.  It had a much bigger motor by the Aragona's...

That's the one I was thinking of, it's a 1914cc engine or something isn't it?

 :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on December 14, 2007, 17:10:39 pm
Hello Folke,

About the 56 reply,

The bmep is created from the power,displ and rpm of an engine.
Today there are many dynoed hi-performance VW engines out there, by using thier numbers in my formula will show you what is a realistic bmep to use.
That is the reason why I "picked" 12,5.

To John Maher & K-Rock.

Thanks for good input.

The best way to determine where VE drops off is to use the 0,55 mach index calculation, as K-Roc mentioned.

It is a little bit more "tricky" than using my formula above because you have to know the efficiency of the port(flow/m2 vs crank degree).

This must be done because you can have two ports with the same area but with different flow numbers, the one with the higher flow will reach 0,55 mach at higher rpm.


I can strongly recomend the PRI show, it has been three days of HARDCORE racing.

BTW I recived my JE "mouse motor" pistons today I will post some pictures later.


Regards
Johannes


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: n2o on December 16, 2007, 20:07:01 pm

"thinking out of the box" the answer  is INDEED the key to succes  ::)

Regards Steve

To get more than 100hp/litre you dosent need to think outside the box, you just have to think... :-)

Of the shelf parts and ideas will get us close with some common sence...

thx
Roar




Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: 1946vw on December 18, 2007, 03:18:32 am
The good news is that all three of my 1679cc engines will be for sale soon. 220hp times 3 Brian


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Lee.C on December 18, 2007, 20:56:26 pm
The good news is that all three of my 1679cc engines will be for sale soon. 220hp times 3 Brian

I'M INTERESTED FOR SURE  :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on December 18, 2007, 22:05:06 pm
I think I'll join the queue as well. I might be interested in you air shift trany as well if you are changing wholesale, or if not if you're prepared to share some info.......... as the shifts sound amazing on the Bugin 32 DVD, I seam to remember it was based on a To#§ta 5 speed from the Hot VW's feature and it certainly sounded like a 5 speed on the DVD, nice idea I thought with the small cube motor.

Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Zach Gomulka on December 19, 2007, 02:06:59 am
I thought it was a Liberty trans?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: 1946vw on December 19, 2007, 02:17:25 am
It is a liberty trans just like a V8 pro stock car has. The engines will be for sale after the first of the year they come with Dyno sheets or come here and see them make power for your self. I have a dyno at the house.
Thanks Brian


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on December 21, 2007, 15:55:51 pm
Hi,

"Santa" came early this year.

Now I have all the parts for the "Mouse motor", I have also done most of the machining to the case like line boring,shuffle pins,extra oil grove in the lifter bores etc.....  .
The crank assembly will be balanced after christmas, then the short block is the next step.
The biggest challenge is of course the heads, the flow potential of the intake port has to be in the range of 190cfm at 25"H2O, that could be hard from a 40mm valve at 15,5mm(.613)lift.

Pictures will soon be post.

Merry Christmas
          &
Happy New Year

Johannes Persson


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on December 21, 2007, 16:04:46 pm
Pic from Johannes:


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: benssp on December 21, 2007, 16:10:57 pm
Can't wait to see the results, that flywheel is a piece of art!  ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on December 21, 2007, 16:13:05 pm
More pics:


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on December 21, 2007, 16:14:25 pm
And more:


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on December 21, 2007, 16:15:13 pm
And more:


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on December 21, 2007, 16:15:55 pm
And even more:


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: benssp on December 21, 2007, 16:27:11 pm
What 'CC' will it be ? and what size valves? ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on December 21, 2007, 16:47:50 pm
It will be 1603cc
The strange size comes from Johannes wish to use Stock old VW cylinders, he takes them up from 85,5 to 86 and have pistons to suit.

The heads are 043 with 40x32mm valves...

I love that 180mm flywheel!  8)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on December 21, 2007, 16:49:03 pm
Hi benssp,
The valve size is 40x32 and the cc is 1603 (86x69mm).

Johannes Persson


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Martin Greaves on December 21, 2007, 19:58:21 pm
Have you got a better photo of the flywheel.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: richie on December 21, 2007, 20:57:43 pm
Hav ou got a better photo of the flywheel.

Spellcheck???????????


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Martin Greaves on December 21, 2007, 22:06:06 pm
Sorry need a new keyboard :) key are not working that good.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Trond Dahl on December 21, 2007, 23:03:11 pm
Gotta love that flywheel...
cant wait for more progress on this very interesting project


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Tom G. on December 22, 2007, 12:15:04 pm
Hi benssp,
The valve size is 40x32 and the cc is 1603 (86x69mm).

Johannes Persson

Are the pistons standard pistons from JE or are their individual produce to customers details?? How much cost them...

Very very nice project Johannes...

Bye
Tom


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Bewitched666 on December 22, 2007, 17:40:11 pm
Whats the weight of that flywheel btw? ???


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on December 23, 2007, 02:55:57 am
Are the pistons standard pistons from JE or are their individual produce to customers details?? How much cost them...

They are custom order thru Johannes (JPM)

Whats the weight of that flywheel btw? ???

It weighs 3.2 kg!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: lawrence on December 23, 2007, 03:27:39 am
That is a 7 pound flywheel!! Johannes, does that have an effect on driveability? Is this strictly a race motor? Its gonna rev like a dirtbike.  ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Bewitched666 on December 24, 2007, 13:43:13 pm
Damn a 7 pound flywheel,gonna rev over 8000 rpm  with that ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: K-Roc on December 25, 2007, 20:52:17 pm
Damn a 7 pound flywheel,gonna rev over 8000 rpm  with that ;D

I see that flywheel (As cool as it is..)as an effective tool to achieve a high number on the Dyno but not to an advantage on the dragstrip.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on December 25, 2007, 21:48:18 pm
Johannes told me that he has tested his other R&D engine with both heavy and super light flywheel.
He got the best time and the highest trap speed with the lightest one. Thats why it's still in the combo.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Bruce on December 26, 2007, 20:25:17 pm
I'd like to know his launch rpm with that flywheel. 
I also think that flywheel weighs less than 7 lbs.  My own is 8 lbs and it doesn't have the big windows in it.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: SOB/RFH on December 27, 2007, 09:22:23 am
Hey. Cool project Johanes. I did one 1600 a few years ago with mostly stock parts (10:1 C/R and a 280 deg cam) and we got a 14.6 out of it in a heavy car. My experience, if it has any value, is the small motor, light car equals light flywheel....heavy car and small motor on the other hand can successfully be ran with heavy flywheel....both combos need high 1:st gearing and high revs to move and will eat R/P:s like they eat hamburgers in the US...........So what R/P is going to be used and will it survive the first 20 set up runs on the sticky local track or will it be saved by a lot of dyno time :) .........Itís about time that someone kill Swedenís "best ET so far with a 1600 cc motor" from back in the early 90's.....13.1 in an oval body car, owned by a guy named "Knutte". Car is still around but has a big (broken?) motor and  lot of bling-bling. Happiness is a Hot VW!!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Roman on December 27, 2007, 19:37:52 pm
Damn a 7 pound flywheel,gonna rev over 8000 rpm  with that ;D

I see that flywheel (As cool as it is..)as an effective tool to achieve a high number on the Dyno but not to an advantage on the dragstrip.

Its gonna rev like a dirtbike.  ;D

A light flywheel will give a great throttle response, but explain to me how a light flywheel will increase the RPM and give higher hp readings on a dyno?

I know Johannes has a tranny with really high gearing made for his blue super beetle and the R/D engine that revs over 9500. If he had a "normal" tranny he would do the quarter in only 3 gears.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on December 28, 2007, 00:01:10 am
Hi Again,

Lawrence, the light flywheel will affect driveability, the motor will rew, both up and down, faster which can be experienced like its   harder to "cruse" with.This engine will primarely be built for the "strip", but with a heavier flywheel it will be very streetable.

Bruce, the launch rpm in the car that I am going to use(type 1 -63 1650lbs) will probably be between 7-8k.

K-Rock, There will be time slips the comming summer with this "Mouse Motor", the most objectiv dyno is the dragstrip, isīnt it?.
I am  not trying to "show off" or "brag" about doing this "Mouse Motor" project,I do it because of my dedication to the type 1 engine,learning and understanding the internal combustion engine and shareing experience with you Loungers.

Tom, I will e-mail you later.

SOB, good input.The car to be used with the "Mouse Motor" is a type 1 -63 1650lbs(750kg)at the starting line, it has a low ratio transaxel R/P 4.86:1  close ratio with 1.37:1 on the fourth gear.The rims are Saco five bolt and the tires are M&H 6x26-15.
On a small engine, the weight of the rotating engine parts has to be in relation to the vehicle weight and gearing.
BTW in 1997 I did several 12.50s 165km/h with my 1679cc in my old yellow type 1.

The shortblock is almost done by now.

Enjoy the pictures.

Johannes Persson


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: K-Roc on December 28, 2007, 00:26:13 am

K-Rock, There will be time slips the comming summer with this "Mouse Motor", the most objectiv dyno is the dragstrip, isīnt it?.
I am  not trying to "show off" or "brag" about doing this "Mouse Motor" project,I do it because of my dedication to the type 1 engine,learning and understanding the internal combustion engine and shareing experience with you Loungers.


Hi Johannes I just want to let you know that I think it is awesome that you are able to make this project happen, I wish I had the means and time to do the same, In my mind I figure that with the flywheel that light that on launch once the inertia is released from the flywheel it would be hard to replace it to keep the car accelrating out of the hole and down the track. However with you old times of 12.50's at 165 Kmh, that would prove me wrong :) and that wouldn't be the first time! LOL!
Good luck with the project and I look forward to seeing some killer results.

K-Roc,


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on December 28, 2007, 00:00:02 am
1.
Machining rods to get equal weight in all four rods big and small end.

(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/007.jpg)

2.Checking the straitness of the rods.

(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/008.jpg)

3.Complete crank assembly on the balancing machine (a german Schenk balancer).

(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/009.jpg)

4.Final cleaning of crank.

(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/010.jpg)

5.Checking cam to lifter clerances and end play on camshaft.

(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/011.jpg)

6.Adjusting intake centerline.

(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/012.jpg)

7.

(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/013.jpg)

8.Machining cylinder deck.

(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/014.jpg)

9.The machining is done on a fixture where the case is leveld on the mains.

(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/015.jpg)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Zach Gomulka on December 28, 2007, 01:25:13 am
A non counterweighted crankshaft?! You are a braver man than I!! ;D

What type of pressure plate is that? Not sure if you already know, but Kennedy offers aluminium versions of their pressure plates that are 3lbs lighter than stock. Something to think about ;)

Good luck!!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Bruce on December 28, 2007, 05:17:54 am
Damn a 7 pound flywheel,gonna rev over 8000 rpm  with that ;D

I see that flywheel (As cool as it is..)as an effective tool to achieve a high number on the Dyno but not to an advantage on the dragstrip.

Its gonna rev like a dirtbike.  ;D

A light flywheel will give a great throttle response, but explain to me how a light flywheel will increase the RPM and give higher hp readings on a dyno? 
The flywheel has no effect on how high an engine can rev.  The engine's breathing, cam, valvetrain, etc. are what affect the max rpm.

If the engine is on a dyno that uses a water brake, you won't see the effect of the flywheel since that type of dyno takes static rpm power readings. 
However, if the engine is in a car which is on an inertial dyno, a light flywheel will show a higher hp reading than the same engine with a heavy flywheel.  The resistance provided by an inertial dyno is the moment of inertia of the rollers the rear tires ride on.  The dyno measures how fast the car can accelerate the rollers.  A lighter flywheel means there's more power available to accelerate the rollers.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Bewitched666 on December 28, 2007, 10:12:48 am
Thats the biggest crank pulley that i have ever seen ;D

Nice work though,keep us posted dude 8)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Tom G. on December 28, 2007, 11:06:28 am
BTW do i need a high pressure plate for such a 1600 with nearly 115lbs? Or is it also possible to take a good Std new Luk plate with cushin grib disc?? Because this combination i have in my 1951ccm...and it functioned,my tires are burning:-))

Bye
Tom


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Bewitched666 on December 28, 2007, 18:19:06 pm
I would upgrade to a high pressure plate Tom buts thats my 2 cents ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: The Ideaman on December 30, 2007, 17:05:16 pm
I think I'll join the queue as well. I might be interested in you air shift trany as well if you are changing wholesale, or if not if you're prepared to share some info.......... as the shifts sound amazing on the Bugin 32 DVD, I seam to remember it was based on a To#§ta 5 speed from the Hot VW's feature and it certainly sounded like a 5 speed on the DVD, nice idea I thought with the small cube motor.

Peter
I believe in the HVW's article, it was a To#§ta rearend.  I'd bet he has since updated to a 9 inch ford with profiled aluminum spool and rifle drilled axles to save weight.  The car is super tiny in person.  I saw it at the Phoenix national event near the scales in '00.  You can almost trip over it.  It takes huge dedication to make a car like this competitive.  Brian, what are you going to do with the dragster after the motors are sold?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: drgouk on January 03, 2008, 12:24:58 pm
Damn a 7 pound flywheel,gonna rev over 8000 rpm  with that ;D

I see that flywheel (As cool as it is..)as an effective tool to achieve a high number on the Dyno but not to an advantage on the dragstrip.

Its gonna rev like a dirtbike.  ;D

A light flywheel will give a great throttle response, but explain to me how a light flywheel will increase the RPM and give higher hp readings on a dyno? 
The flywheel has no effect on how high an engine can rev.  The engine's breathing, cam, valvetrain, etc. are what affect the max rpm.

If the engine is on a dyno that uses a water brake, you won't see the effect of the flywheel since that type of dyno takes static rpm power readings. 
However, if the engine is in a car which is on an inertial dyno, a light flywheel will show a higher hp reading than the same engine with a heavy flywheel.  The resistance provided by an inertial dyno is the moment of inertia of the rollers the rear tires ride on.  The dyno measures how fast the car can accelerate the rollers.  A lighter flywheel means there's more power available to accelerate the rollers.


Bruce it depends on weather the water brake engine dyno is computer controled and you can acclerate the engine, Whats called a "power run" not a static test. THe effect of lighter internal components will show during this type of testing. A superflow 902 or a dts dyno can carryout this type of testing.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on January 11, 2008, 01:41:18 am
Description of the pictures will follow:

(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/019.jpg)
Welding of combustion chambers, mainly to get the desired comp ratio because of the small displasement.



(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/0208.jpg)


(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/021.jpg)
A small welding is done on the sparkplug side of the intakeport, the welding is massive to the underside of the head.

(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/022.jpg)
Welded and machined intake flange.

(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/023.jpg)
New bigger alu bronze seats installed, alu bronze has the same heat expansion as aluminum and it also transfer heat a lot better than for example steel seats.


(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/024.jpg)



(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/025.jpg)



(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/027.jpg)
Combustion chamber,intake and ex port done, note how close the camber wall is to the valve on the none sparkplug side, this is to get the extension of the intake port shaped as a venturi.This boosts the flow from 10mm lift and up it also improves the quality of incomming mixture, in my experience, unshrouding the vale at this side will improve the flow on low lifts but will decrease the power.


(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/030.jpg)
The intake port is filled on the long side radius with BELZONA 1111 to get the correct shape and sizes.


(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/031.jpg)
Big Beef has become "SMALL STEAK"


(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/032.jpg)
I am really suprised of the flow numbers from a 40mm intake valve and 86mm bore.
Flownumbers CFM at 25"H2O.
lift(mm)              Flow(intake)             Flow(exhaust)
2                       42,6                        39,5
4                        81,3                       73,3
6                        111,4                     96,5
8                        136,7                     115,5
10                      159,4                     130,3
12                      177,5                     141,8
14                      188,2                     148,5
16                      194,9                     152,5

The Port velocity(intake) meassured in the center of the port at the flange is 298ft/s this is where the port is the biggest.
Same measurements on the ex port is 324ft/s.The outlet is only 34mm, going too big on the outlet will slow down the speed and the overall power will drop.
First I did some tests with an old head to see what intake flow numbers I could reach, when I saw the unexpected high numbers I had to increase the ex valve from 32mm to 35,5mm.

Regards
Johannes

(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/026.jpg)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on January 11, 2008, 13:30:38 pm
I think it is fantastic that a professional like you lets us see your "magic". I'm trying to soak up all the info i can so I'll will be tuned for the  duration.
This is going to be one special little engine.  8)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: RMS Boxer Service on January 11, 2008, 13:47:15 pm
I think it is fantastic that a professional like you lets us see your "magic". I'm trying to soak up all the info i can so I'll will be tuned for the  duration.
This is going to be one special little engine.  8)


I feel the same way :)  I'm checking this thread allmost every day to see if something new have happend.
Johannes, keep on the NICE work.


/Rolf, DK



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: n2o on January 11, 2008, 16:11:08 pm
Impressive number's Johannes.

Quick question, do you know the max speed of air, where port is at it's smallest?

Thanks
Roar


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: K-Roc on January 11, 2008, 19:24:33 pm
Impressive number's Johannes.

Quick question, do you know the max speed of air, where port is at it's smallest?

Thanks
Roar

You use a Pitot Tube to measure localized Velocity on the flow bench,

Johannes, nice work ! I have never heard of Belzonia 1111, is that an Aluminum based Epoxy of some sort? ( I use stuff called Splash Zone from Z-SPar) Reher Morrison sell it.

For your 40mm intake valve, what did you use for the Seat throat ID diameter and Bowl diameter under the seat ? I usually shoot for about 89-90% for the throat and then enlarge the bowl on the High RPM stuff.

Giving away a few secrets there LOL, ie: NOT blowing out the chamber wall to valve seat... I have seen some large increases in Flow bench numbers on heads with heavily unshrouded chambers only to suffer in actual power in real life. one of those areas that the flow bench will lie to you unless you know what you are doing

K-Roc


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: yvre on January 12, 2008, 10:26:14 am
Man, what a great thread!!!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on January 12, 2008, 15:54:22 pm
Hi there,

N2O:The highest speed I recorded was 356ft/s, on the short side radius close to the seat.The velocity is
        meassured at 28" of depression.

K-Roc:I use the pitot tube as a reference tool just to check velocities in different areas in the port.
         The seat ID is 90% of the valve dia and the bowl is a little bigger, not as big as I use to make
         them on an all out race engine.I have also noticed if your engine is valve restricted you can go
         as big as 93% of valve dia with very good results, the seat has then to be cut to a special shape.
         
         The Belzona 1111 is an epoxy that I really do not know wath it contains but it is for me so far
         the best I have tried, no problems to this point.I gues you can find info on the internet.


 Regards
Johannes


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Lee.C on January 12, 2008, 23:39:14 pm
Man, what a great thread!!!

Just what I was thinkin dude  ;) :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: haldex201 on January 13, 2008, 12:42:28 pm
I think i am not gonna use my old SF heads 44/37,5 any more. JPM has take them to his flow bench and they had the worse data as the 043JPM heads.
You are a fantastisk man Johannes.
Look forward too see what data the dyno gives.

Tom V K
Copenhagen
 



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: sonic on January 20, 2008, 18:47:15 pm
Really find this thread interesting . Apart from a couple of engines buildt by JMR ,(thanks John), I always
tried to do the work myself . Apart from a 2165 NOS `d engine I felt for going back in time for that
"no worries "1776 cc  engine .
Yesterday I spotted 4 Carrillo rods on sale from Berg`s and that got me hooked .
So it went on with ordering a complete crank assembly, ( welded 69,)balanced and ready.
On top og this 044 heads , p&p by local man ..

As I am hoping to get the most out of this engine powerwise `good adwise on cam choice is paramount ,
I am by no means a proffetional builder but I have gone thrught  a lot of Engle Cams , only to be impressed
with 3 or 4 . Love the FK 89 , W 110 and 130.

So if anyone have any good adwise regarding  cam , compression  choice I would be happy..
I am espesially concerned about material quality these days . I just love what Johannes Person is doing ,
but without his know/how it will always be a case of trial /error for me .

Regards   

       


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Taylor on January 27, 2008, 21:42:56 pm
tell me about this for small powerhouse! 101cu.in.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Bruce on January 27, 2008, 23:16:26 pm
Welcome aboard, Taylor!
Ya can't just post that without some numbers for us to fantisize about.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Lee.C on January 27, 2008, 23:50:00 pm
And alittle more info wouldn't go amiss  ;) :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: K-Roc on January 28, 2008, 05:45:03 am
Nice!

I think you may need slightly larger valve springs though  ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: BeetleBug on January 28, 2008, 08:49:35 am
Nice!

I think you may need slightly larger valve springs though  ;D

Nah... that`s the new trend you know - superlight everything. Titanium valves, carbon pushrods + + .... don`t need much pressure to make things work.. Oh, and it saves you lifters they say  :D

Well, back to topic - It`s been a little while since Johannes reported back and I`m really looking forward to see the progress he has made on his engine.

Best rgs
BB


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on January 28, 2008, 10:45:10 am
The engine is sitting in the engine stand now, will run in cam, and comment the pictures later.

(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/33.jpg)
The cylinders are about 20mm shorter than std length.
(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/34.jpg)
The std 85,5mm pistons has a weight of 568g the JE 86mm weights only 388g, 180g lighter.

(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/35.jpg)
The pushrods are 254mm long, it is not unusuall to have pushrods between 275-285mm in stroker engines.
(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/36.jpg)
"Mouse Motor" waiting for cam brake in, only with the outer valvespring, the dual OTEVA 75 springs has 165lbs in the seat and 370lbs at 15,5mm lift.The weight of the spring is only 64g.
(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/37.jpg)
"Beetlbug" the header is tuned to 8000rpm as the rest of the engine, the #2 and #4 tubes will be too long if I place them in the ordonary style.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: BeetleBug on January 28, 2008, 11:01:49 am
Thank you for you update Johannes! I`m very much looking forward to hearing the theory behind the exhaust.

Best rgs
BB


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: n2o on January 28, 2008, 21:14:17 pm
higher rews, shorter tubes..


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on January 28, 2008, 22:08:19 pm
Hi there,
THE MOUSE MOTOR is alive!
The brake in prossedur of the cam went fine and now the duals are on.
Time to do some rpm..........
A small video will be posted very soon.
Everything sounds promising so far.
Regards
Johannes


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: BeetleBug on January 28, 2008, 22:26:11 pm
Congrats with the start up - exciting news!

Thank you for answering my question. I hope you don`t mind me babbling along regarding your header? So the header is tuned to 8000 rpms and if you used a "ordinary" header the #2 and #4 tubes would be too long. But what would be the difference if you compared your custom made header to a "out of the box ordinary" one? Lack of respons? Less hp? Less driveability?

Thanks,
BB / Kalle


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on January 28, 2008, 22:54:35 pm
"It's alive!!! Moahahahahaaa

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPVqYRrQBA0&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPVqYRrQBA0&feature=related)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Rune on January 28, 2008, 23:02:31 pm
Great throttle respons, cool Johannes!! :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Rick Meredith on January 28, 2008, 23:13:44 pm
That thing just snaps! very cool!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Rasser on January 28, 2008, 23:49:58 pm
Thumbs up!!!!!  Sounds amazing!!

Keep up the great work, itīs so exiciting to follow this build from start to finished engine.

Imagine yourself driving a big V8, stopping for a red light - and then a beetle comes up beside you and starts revving like that ;-) ;-) ;-)   thats why i LOVE hot VWīs.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Diederick/DVK on January 29, 2008, 00:56:56 am
awesome vid!!
how come it snaps like that? is the flywheel that light?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Lee.C on January 29, 2008, 01:15:21 am
Thumbs up!!!!!  Sounds amazing!!

Keep up the great work, itīs so exiciting to follow this build from start to finished engine.

Imagine yourself driving a big V8, stopping for a red light - and then a beetle comes up beside you and starts revving like that ;-) ;-) ;-)   thats why i LOVE hot VWīs.

couldn't have put it better myself dude - sounds AWSOME  ;D ;D ;D

And D I think the light flywheel helps ALOT - I think I might drop Johannes Persson a line about my 1679 mouse motor  ;) :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: lawrence on January 29, 2008, 06:49:00 am
Very cool video clip. Thanks for sharing all of the info on the buildup. Johannes, the rocker arm assembly looks like a quality piece. Who makes it?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: folkevogn on January 29, 2008, 09:17:18 am
Awsome sound :o!!!Cant wait to hear it rev past 8000rpm ;D ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on January 29, 2008, 09:26:16 am
Thank you guys for your input.

Beetlebug:using a too long header will hurt the top end power, the torque curve will drop earlier in the rpm range.
               If the rest of the engine is tuned at a high rpm a too long header hurts the output a lot.

67-indeed/DVK:It is a combination between light rotating parts and good cylinder pressure that makes an engine snap.

lawrence:Thank you for asking, that is my own product I make those together with my fivestud rockers which fits on the MS230
              heads. 

The final is comming up with this project and that is ofcourse to put the "Mouse Motor" on the "bullshit detector"(dyno) and see what it makes.
Hopefully I will have time to do this in a two week period.

Regards
Johannes Persson 



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: drgouk on January 29, 2008, 09:58:38 am
Awsome Johannes, You do some top work. Very interesting.

Regards

David Gouk


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Torben Alstrup on January 29, 2008, 12:06:55 pm
Hello.
Very interesting heads, - among all the other stuff. Iīm very interested in seeing how this turns out.
I made a set of heads with chambers  almost exactly like that, 40 X 34 valves though, and with an oval shape intake port a couple of years back, for a 1680 engine. Cam in the same duration range, but with smaller carbs.
Bottom line was that it didnt perform that well. It felt wild on the street, but the BS detector said otherwise. When it was taken apart again, the chambers showed a very inefficient plug side, judging from the carbon patterns.  I may have made a bad intake port shape without knowing it.
Johannes. If you dont mind sharing, what I/E ratio does it have with the small exhaust valve ? Iīm guessing rather low.
T


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: sonic on January 29, 2008, 21:23:22 pm
Impressive , but 48 `s must surely be to much , !!!
Rgs


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Neil Davies on January 29, 2008, 21:39:26 pm
48's are never too much! ;)

Seriously, I'm guessing that they're choked down quite a bit, but this is obviously no ordinary 1600!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on January 30, 2008, 10:07:17 am
Small engines need "big" carbs to breath efficiently when you want the higher revs, more so than lager engines.

This is just something I have heard and seen, but can anyone explain why? 


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: airstuff on January 30, 2008, 13:08:44 pm
where can I get those JE pistons,I need 88mm ones. ???


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Rune on January 30, 2008, 17:20:23 pm
Drop Johannes a line, he can hook you up with the pistons you need..


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: kormi on January 30, 2008, 19:01:28 pm
Nice work Johannes! Looking forward to see the dyno-pull  :D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Udo on January 30, 2008, 20:49:26 pm
where can I get those JE pistons,I need 88mm ones. ???

I still have some 88,5 pistons for sale . They where made by Wahl , a company that makes racing pistond for mahle . Very strong and lightweight . Their are only a view miles on them . Kompression height is the same as the 90,5 x 82

Udo


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Billyisgr8 on January 31, 2008, 04:19:15 am
This is awsome, great job I am a fan of a mouse motor and will follow this closely, I would have really loved to have seen you do this with a singleport.  I see you are using non counterweighted crankshaft.  How balanced were you able to get the crankshaft down too without the counterweights?

Here is something for you singleport fans.

Kevin

(http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/377171.jpg)



 


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: cbigpwr on January 31, 2008, 07:28:14 am
tell me about this for small powerhouse! 101cu.in.

  Hello all, I'm Anthony and I work @ Heads Up Performance. I've been working with Taylor for "way too long" on this small motor project. The object was to try to run a bug competively in NHRA SS/CC again. Well, they moved the class to Modified Stock and renamed it SS/FS. Same weight break and rules, so we didn't get too bummed. Taylor is using a 1967 sedan, so it will have the Klingamann, Mike Smith look, my all time favorite drag cars.
  The motor is going to be a 94x60, Aluminium rods, roller cam, custom everything 101 inch. The heads are "highly modified" 044 castings with Heads Up/ Componant Development 1.8:1 rockers. I don't even want to think how much time I have in these little babies. They just hit the bench the other day, 250 CFM @.700 @ 25" on our Super Flow 600 bench. The valve are 45x36 with really small chambers. Getting compression is really hard on this motor.
  We are going to fire the motor up on 48 idf carbs first, and maybe run it down the track, but then switch to fuel injection after. I can't wait to finish this motor. I've been thinking about this kind of combo for aboiut 10 years, then Taylor came along. He had the same kind of ideas and want to run in NHRA again, so we kind of pooled our thoughts and hopefully the thing runs good enough to make a good showing for VW's in the door car catagories again.
  More to come later...

                                                        Anthony Chicca    Heads Up Performance


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Tom G. on January 31, 2008, 11:32:27 am
"It's alive!!! Moahahahahaaa

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPVqYRrQBA0&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPVqYRrQBA0&feature=related)

Oh what a great result...i still know what my next project is:-)) it sounds like a high rev. motorcycle engine....if i see these low weights of flywheel and pistons.. wow..i am speechless..

Regards
Tom


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on January 31, 2008, 14:19:19 pm
Hi Torben,

Sorry I missed your question.

The I/E ratio is about 78%, if you go back in the thread you will find the flow numbers from 2-16mm lift.

Best regards
Johannes


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Frallan on January 31, 2008, 15:28:34 pm
Hello everyone,

I posted this on a thread at STF.
I think Johannes is timid......look what he already did with his 1915 cc. Never did he mention this yet, so I do. It is on the JPM website under movies.
Listen to it and believe him, it runs and stays together. It is used on the street too.

Frallan

http://www.jpmotorsport.se/

1915 cc close to 250 hp at 9500 rpm.
4 Mikuni carburators.
Soon Motec FI and more HP, if I am to believe him.
Just listen to it and anyone who has riden this car ( I havent) says that the car is streetable and has lowdown torque. I dont get it but why not?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Zach Gomulka on January 31, 2008, 16:31:43 pm
How balanced were you able to get the crankshaft down too without the counterweights?

You can balance a crank with or without counterweights. Think about it... when counterweights are added, there is 2 put on each "side" of the crank...


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: cameron shorey on January 31, 2008, 17:39:07 pm
tell me about this for small powerhouse! 101cu.in.

  Hello all, I'm Anthony and I work @ Heads Up Performance. I've been working with Taylor for "way too long" on this small motor project. The object was to try to run a bug competively in NHRA SS/CC again. Well, they moved the class to Modified Stock and renamed it SS/FS. Same weight break and rules, so we didn't get too bummed. Taylor is using a 1967 sedan, so it will have the Klingamann, Mike Smith look, my all time favorite drag cars.
  The motor is going to be a 94x60, Aluminium rods, roller cam, custom everything 101 inch. The heads are "highly modified" 044 castings with Heads Up/ Componant Development 1.8:1 rockers. I don't even want to think how much time I have in these little babies. They just hit the bench the other day, 250 CFM @.700 @ 25" on our Super Flow 600 bench. The valve are 45x36 with really small chambers. Getting compression is really hard on this motor.
  We are going to fire the motor up on 48 idf carbs first, and maybe run it down the track, but then switch to fuel injection after. I can't wait to finish this motor. I've been thinking about this kind of combo for aboiut 10 years, then Taylor came along. He had the same kind of ideas and want to run in NHRA again, so we kind of pooled our thoughts and hopefully the thing runs good enough to make a good showing for VW's in the door car catagories again.
  More to come later...

                                                        Anthony Chicca    Heads Up Performance

Hi Anthony,
I'm curious. What is the reason for the 1" x 1" bar welded along the bottom of that head? And what are going to do for valve covers? 
I like the idea of going to 48 IDF footprint EFI. Much more compact.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Billyisgr8 on January 31, 2008, 20:45:03 pm
How balanced were you able to get the crankshaft down too without the counterweights?

You can balance a crank with or without counterweights. Think about it... when counterweights are added, there is 2 put on each "side" of the crank...

Can you get the same tolorance in grams with or without counterweights, or can you balance to a smaller gram with counterweights,  is maybe the way I should have worded the question.


Kevin


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on January 31, 2008, 20:48:31 pm
Hello Frallan,

Thank you for your nice words.
The dynopull on my homepage made to 9500rpm is the first version of my 1915 project.
It produced 224hp/8400rpm, today the same engine with some more R&D to it produce 246hp/8900rpm
and keeps good power till 9500rpm.It will be equipped with Motec and my F1 roller throttle bodies for this season, I hope.

Sorry for taking a side step.

Regards
Johannes



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Bruce on February 01, 2008, 05:28:30 am
How balanced were you able to get the crankshaft down too without the counterweights?
You can balance a crank with or without counterweights. Think about it... when counterweights are added, there is 2 put on each "side" of the crank...
Can you get the same tolorance in grams with or without counterweights, or can you balance to a smaller gram with counterweights,  is maybe the way I should have worded the question.
Any VW crank can be balanced to 0.0000000g of imbalance.  The size of the counterweight has nothing to do with the balancing job.  The counterweight helps prevents flexing of the crank.  The ideal counterweight for a VW crank is much heavier than is physically possible.  In other words, they are never big enough.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Fast Bug on February 01, 2008, 14:16:11 pm
Any VW crank can be balanced to 0.0000000g of imbalance.  The size of the counterweight has nothing to do with the balancing job.  The counterweight helps prevents flexing of the crank.  The ideal counterweight for a VW crank is much heavier than is physically possible.  In other words, they are never big enough.

That's true, I couldn't have said it better


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: cbigpwr on February 01, 2008, 17:21:55 pm
tell me about this for small powerhouse! 101cu.in.

  Hello all, I'm Anthony and I work @ Heads Up Performance. I've been working with Taylor for "way too long" on this small motor project. The object was to try to run a bug competively in NHRA SS/CC again. Well, they moved the class to Modified Stock and renamed it SS/FS. Same weight break and rules, so we didn't get too bummed. Taylor is using a 1967 sedan, so it will have the Klingamann, Mike Smith look, my all time favorite drag cars.
  The motor is going to be a 94x60, Aluminium rods, roller cam, custom everything 101 inch. The heads are "highly modified" 044 castings with Heads Up/ Componant Development 1.8:1 rockers. I don't even want to think how much time I have in these little babies. They just hit the bench the other day, 250 CFM @.700 @ 25" on our Super Flow 600 bench. The valve are 45x36 with really small chambers. Getting compression is really hard on this motor.
  We are going to fire the motor up on 48 idf carbs first, and maybe run it down the track, but then switch to fuel injection after. I can't wait to finish this motor. I've been thinking about this kind of combo for aboiut 10 years, then Taylor came along. He had the same kind of ideas and want to run in NHRA again, so we kind of pooled our thoughts and hopefully the thing runs good enough to make a good showing for VW's in the door car catagories again.
  More to come later...

                                                        Anthony Chicca    Heads Up Performance

Hi Anthony,
I'm curious. What is the reason for the 1" x 1" bar welded along the bottom of that head? And what are going to do for valve covers? 
I like the idea of going to 48 IDF footprint EFI. Much more compact.

That is the unfinished valve cover rail. It will be profiled later. We will be running either the Autocraft cast valve covers, or a light-weight sheet metal version. Haven't decided yet. The IDF carb is the "Bastard Child" of the Weber line-up. Properly modified they can flow MORE than a 48 IDA. The only way an IDA can beat it is by boring it bigger. But even an IDF can be bored to 50mm. The manifold package of the IDF is also superior to the IDA. It has a straighter shot. No bends equal more flow. Plus the IDF has a better idle circut. To Many pluses for the IDF, I wish they still made them. With that said, I think the injection will still run better than the IDF. More power under the curve=better E.T.s  Hopefully!

                                                                                  Anthony Chicca    Heads Up Performance


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Udo on February 01, 2008, 18:41:16 pm
Are these the new style Autocraft rockers ?

Udo


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: richie on February 01, 2008, 19:25:39 pm
Are these the new style Autocraft rockers ?

Udo

Udo,it meantions in the first post by Anthony they are component devolopement 1.8/1 rockers :)

cheers  richie


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Udo on February 02, 2008, 09:20:47 am
Hi Richie

Autocraft has 1.8 i think  :)

Udo


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: cbigpwr on February 05, 2008, 17:04:05 pm
Hi Richie

Autocraft has 1.8 i think  :)

Udo

Same rockers. They are Componant Development rockers. They are the company that makes the heads and rockers. Roger @ Heads Up and Mike @ Autocraft are parteners on the progect (put the money up for the project). Both Heads Up and Autocraft sell the same parts. We have heads, rockers (1.55, 1.7, and 1.8) valve covers. Manifolds are coming soon.

These rockers change the geometry of the pushrod in relation to the lifter. The pushrod and the lifter are now straight in-line. I don't think this motor (Taylors 1600) would be so sucessful if it wasn't for these rockers. As you cut the lenghth of the motor down (bring the head closer to the case) this angle on the pushrod gets more extreme.

                                                                                     Anthony  Heads Up Performance


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Casey on February 05, 2008, 18:26:00 pm
Sshhhheeeessshhhhh Anthony, I never saw those babies over there! How long do build a duplicate set? 1 week? Come on I know you can pull it off! This will be the second time.  ;) ;D. You da man! I'm VERY close by the way. Going in on Fri. Later Casey.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Project_X on February 06, 2008, 04:56:12 am
That motor is awesome.When I first got my bug I was asking about possibilities of building a 1600cc in stock bore/stroke form but I was told it would be a waste of time,build a stroker or go home...
I love the fact these motors can rev high.I like that part, but how reliable are they with the new technology?I read this whole thread, and seen that back then they grenaded after a certain amount of time but was that with just strictly racing them?If I was to build or attempt to build one, it would be a daily driver for me so would that be bad or good?I like the idea of a high strung 1600cc with 10:1 cr, capable of reving to at least 7k.Id be happy if it made 110-130hp , after all these are small mouse motors.Would they be as quick as the strokers being they have less torque?Sorry about all the questions I'm just really curious about thinking outside the box since I dont get along well inside the box... ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Project_X on February 06, 2008, 17:15:52 pm
Can you guys tell me what its costing you guys to build a mouse motor?I'd be happy with around 110-120hp out a 1600,1641,1679.High revs sound cool to me..LOL


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Udo on February 06, 2008, 19:18:21 pm
Can you guys tell me what its costing you guys to build a mouse motor?I'd be happy with around 110-120hp out a 1600,1641,1679.High revs sound cool to me..LOL

An engine like this would be not so expensive . 110-120 hp is easy to get . Depends on what new parts you want , case , heads ..

Udo


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Project_X on February 07, 2008, 06:30:20 am
Can you guys tell me what its costing you guys to build a mouse motor?I'd be happy with around 110-120hp out a 1600,1641,1679.High revs sound cool to me..LOL

An engine like this would be not so expensive . 110-120 hp is easy to get . Depends on what new parts you want , case , heads ..

Udo

I was told it would be a waste of time an money, is this true?Also I notice you guys use lightweight parts, Ive looked a few up like Jet rods,7lb flywheels, there really pricey.Can I get away with a 12lb flywheel,lightweight lifters, and whatever else I can get on a budget.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on February 07, 2008, 09:32:14 am
To get 120 horses you don't need a single lightweight part. You can get away with stock rods and a Mahle 94mm cylinder kit. What you do need is a pair of nice heads in combination with a good cam.  8)

I forgot to mention that I was talking about a 1915, or a "non stroker"


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Udo on February 07, 2008, 20:15:50 pm
To get 120 horses you don't need a single lightweight part. You can get away with stock rods and a Mahle cylinder kit. What you do need is a pair of nice heads in combination with a good cam.  8)

That is all !! You are right Jon

Udo


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Project_X on February 08, 2008, 03:19:09 am
Yup Ive been told many times its all in the heads, but was just curious.Whats it costing on average to build these little mouse motors(ie 1600,1603,1641,1679,1699)?Trying my best to stay on topic (sorry, Im just amazed about these little mouse motors)but from what your saying I can build any of those sizes up to 110-120hp.Also Ive read posts before that these motors dont make enough power to move until after 4000rpms, I hope thats not true because I want one of these for a street motor.Thinking maybe 40IDF's,FK8 cam with 1.4:1 rockers, 1.5" merged header, 044 heads from CB Performance, and some type of ignition.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Bruce on February 08, 2008, 07:37:47 am
IMO, you are looking in the wrong direction.
The most reliable hp is displacement.  Getting 120hp out of a 1600 NA is not easy.  Don't believe anyone that says it is.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Torben Alstrup on February 08, 2008, 10:53:59 am
In my time I have built a couple of these small engine with that hp range. 120 hp out of a 1600 cc for daily use is stretching it, witout saying impossible. 1680 cc. with 117 - 120 usable hp is not a problem. The few extra cc. helps making it driveable at all rpm. There are a couple of solutions. I have my own of course. ::)

I have a 1600 cc 110 hp version that works very well on the street, and a (rpm limited) 100 hp versoin built mainly out of stock parts. The key is to make the engine pull torque soon enough to make it decent in the lower rpm. Its absolutely possible, but you have to think a little different than mainstream.
But from there to JPMīs or Autocraftīs heads & engines is a giant leap.

T


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on February 08, 2008, 11:10:40 am
I have modified my post as it was unclear at one point, I was talking about a "non-stroker" (1915) not a 1600.
Thats why I mention the cylinder kit.

Bruce, I guess anyone that has seen this thread understands that "good heads" is beyond regular "good heads".
Nothing is Easy, but a having the help of a head porter makes it easyer, in my opinion.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Zach Gomulka on February 08, 2008, 17:44:12 pm
My daily driver 1600 went 14.8's @ 88mph. The car was light (noisy), and had close 3-4. But it was a simple and relatively inexpensive combo that worked very well. Someday Ill build a "clone" with the new tricks Ive learned :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Bruce on February 09, 2008, 04:28:44 am
Bruce, I guess anyone that has seen this thread understands that "good heads" is beyond regular "good heads".
Nothing is Easy, but a having the help of a head porter makes it easyer, in my opinion.
I agree with that.
For Project X, if you build a 2110 with really badly ported heads, it will still make at least 100-110hp, and be very easy to build.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Project_X on February 09, 2008, 06:54:10 am
Bruce, I guess anyone that has seen this thread understands that "good heads" is beyond regular "good heads".
Nothing is Easy, but a having the help of a head porter makes it easyer, in my opinion.
I agree with that.
For Project X, if you build a 2110 with really badly ported heads, it will still make at least 100-110hp, and be very easy to build.
Yeah understand a 2L stroker can make that hp easy but Id rather have something smaller but capable of 100hp at least.You know, the little motor that nobody expects to be quicker than it looks, like that 1603cc, what kind of money has that guy put into it, anyone know?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Tom G. on February 09, 2008, 09:17:25 am
Bruce, I guess anyone that has seen this thread understands that "good heads" is beyond regular "good heads".
Nothing is Easy, but a having the help of a head porter makes it easyer, in my opinion.
I agree with that.
For Project X, if you build a 2110 with really badly ported heads, it will still make at least 100-110hp, and be very easy to build.
Yeah understand a 2L stroker can make that hp easy but Id rather have something smaller but capable of 100hp at least.You know, the little motor that nobody expects to be quicker than it looks, like that 1603cc, what kind of money has that guy put into it, anyone know?

expensive.....Heads and pistons are the most expensive parts...i think within all parts,+ his own working time it will be 4000-5000Ä for this engine....

Bye
Tom


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Udo on February 09, 2008, 11:12:23 am
Bruce, I guess anyone that has seen this thread understands that "good heads" is beyond regular "good heads".
Nothing is Easy, but a having the help of a head porter makes it easyer, in my opinion.
I agree with that.
For Project X, if you build a 2110 with really badly ported heads, it will still make at least 100-110hp, and be very easy to build.
Yeah understand a 2L stroker can make that hp easy but Id rather have something smaller but capable of 100hp at least.You know, the little motor that nobody expects to be quicker than it looks, like that 1603cc, what kind of money has that guy put into it, anyone know?

For this horesepower it is not woth to build a 2,0 ltr engine . So stay at your 1600 or max. 1776 . It is very easy and cheep to built and both make very good street horepower .

Udo


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Project_X on February 09, 2008, 15:56:18 pm
Bruce, I guess anyone that has seen this thread understands that "good heads" is beyond regular "good heads".
Nothing is Easy, but a having the help of a head porter makes it easyer, in my opinion.
I agree with that.
For Project X, if you build a 2110 with really badly ported heads, it will still make at least 100-110hp, and be very easy to build.
Yeah understand a 2L stroker can make that hp easy but Id rather have something smaller but capable of 100hp at least.You know, the little motor that nobody expects to be quicker than it looks, like that 1603cc, what kind of money has that guy put into it, anyone know?

For this horesepower it is not woth to build a 2,0 ltr engine . So stay at your 1600 or max. 1776 . It is very easy and cheep to built and both make very good street horepower .

Udo

ok, cool thanks, also anyone know what 4000-5000Ä is in American money by chance?LOL


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Frallan on February 09, 2008, 19:26:35 pm
4000 Ä  to 5000Ä is 5700 usd to 7250 USD according to international rates of today.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Bruce on February 09, 2008, 23:11:32 pm
Bruce, I guess anyone that has seen this thread understands that "good heads" is beyond regular "good heads".
Nothing is Easy, but a having the help of a head porter makes it easyer, in my opinion.
I agree with that.
For Project X, if you build a 2110 with really badly ported heads, it will still make at least 100-110hp, and be very easy to build.
Yeah understand a 2L stroker can make that hp easy but Id rather have something smaller but capable of 100hp at least.You know, the little motor that nobody expects to be quicker than it looks, like that 1603cc, what kind of money has that guy put into it, anyone know?
There's nothing wrong with wanting to do something different.  But when you are on a tight budget, you won't get there.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Bruce on February 09, 2008, 23:28:09 pm
For this horesepower it is not woth to build a 2,0 ltr engine . So stay at your 1600 or max. 1776 . It is very easy and cheep to built and both make very good street horepower .

Udo
A 2 liter is gonna cost you $250 more to build than a 1776.  What's the big deal about that?

Why don't you let us in on how easy and cheap it is to build a 1600 that outputs more than double the stock hp.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on February 10, 2008, 00:34:02 am
JPM built this engine to test what could be done with cheap parts in combination with know how. As he does his own heads this has for him been a very cheap, as for the rest of us we have to add the cost of having a pair of head built.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Project_X on February 10, 2008, 04:35:45 am
5700 bucks to build a 1603cc to get 176hp? Is that what your saying it would cost to build that motor? JPM is in Sweden right? So if I got heads from him and that exhaust it would cost double since IM in Florida...umm holy crap LOL


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Udo on February 10, 2008, 12:13:15 pm
For this horesepower it is not woth to build a 2,0 ltr engine . So stay at your 1600 or max. 1776 . It is very easy and cheep to built and both make very good street horepower .

Udo
A 2 liter is gonna cost you $250 more to build than a 1776.  What's the big deal about that?

Why don't you let us in on how easy and cheap it is to build a 1600 that outputs more than double the stock hp.

Where do you get those cheap cranks , clearance the case ... ?

Everybody has his own experience , i only work with good quality cranks like scat , okrasa , gene berg .

Udo


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Bruce on February 11, 2008, 00:29:19 am
CB sells a perfectly good forged chromoly crank for $289.

Why don't you tell us how much you would charge for a turn-key 1600 that makes 120hp?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: stealth67vw on February 11, 2008, 01:36:18 am
Quote from: Udo

Where do you get those cheap cranks , clearance the case ... ?


Hard to justify spending $150-200 for DPR or DMS stock c/w crank when you can find cheap Chinese 78-84 strokers for $199.00.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=388182


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Udo on February 11, 2008, 07:31:33 am
CB sells a perfectly good forged chromoly crank for $289.

Why don't you tell us how much you would charge for a turn-key 1600 that makes 120hp?

A longblock would be something about 3000 euros , depends on what new parts you want . And a 2 liter starts at 4000 .

Udo


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on February 11, 2008, 22:46:53 pm
Hi there!

Finally I got the time to put the "Mouse Motor" on the dyno and this is what I see.

POWER:138,8kW 188.7hp/7670rpm
TORQUE:192.4Nm/6100rpm(138,7lbs)

The ignition and fuel curve is optimized, the main venturies is 37mm, main jets is 145 the air is 160 idle jets are 65f10 and the E-tubes are F7.I will go bigger with the main venturies, the first step will be 39mm, this will hopefully raise the output alittle bit more and get me closer to the calculated max power rpm(8000).I will post a video later.


Talk to you later
Johannes



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: folkevogn on February 11, 2008, 23:02:59 pm
Holy crap!!!!!! :o :o :o :o
to me, that is taking it to the next level!
I`m going insane here, I desperatly want to hear the motor run,  please post a clip off the dyno run NOW  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I`m speachless!your are making the same power numbers in your tiny little 1603ccm mousemotor as I do with my 2332ccm


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Zach Gomulka on February 12, 2008, 00:04:06 am
That is awesome. I never dreamed you could get those kind of numbers out of 1600cc. Even the torque figure looks very respectable. If you could, Id love to see a dyno graph to show the power and torque curves.

What is the compression ratio??


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Lee.C on February 12, 2008, 00:57:37 am
"your are making the same power numbers in your tiny little 1603ccm mousemotor as I do with my 2332ccm"

Exactly dude  ;) :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Torben Alstrup on February 12, 2008, 01:04:15 am
Hi there!

Finally I got the time to put the "Mouse Motor" on the dyno and this is what I see.

POWER:138,8kW 188.7hp/7670rpm
TORQUE:192.4Nm/6100rpm(138,7lbs)

The ignition and fuel curve is optimized, the main venturies is 37mm, main jets is 145 the air is 160 idle jets are 65f10 and the E-tubes are F7.I will go bigger with the main venturies, the first step will be 39mm, this will hopefully raise the output alittle bit more and get me closer to the calculated max power rpm(8000).I will post a video later.


Talk to you later
Johannes
:o AAAALLRIIIGHT !!!!  Impressive numbers. Where does it begin to make power ?
Torben


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on February 12, 2008, 01:31:44 am
Johannes told me on the phone tonight that the engine has a very wide power band, in fact he compares it with a Japanese motorcycle.  ;D ;D ;D ;D

I knew from past experiences with JPM that he delivers when he says he's going to do something, but I confess to having thought that this was a far stretch. The man knows his stuff!

Can't wait for that video!!
 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
 


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Frallan on February 12, 2008, 02:23:16 am
A little bit of JPM "bragging" ...I like to brag about you Johannes.
I subscribe to some Formula one and High tech racing magazines, in them I could read last year that the supercar manufacturer Koenigsegg are getting in to racing. Not just world record runs but real racing.
It was mentioned about some few companies that would assist them in further development of the car and on the engine company, JPM was mentioned.
I like that.

Anyway, Congratulations Johannes to the new Mouse concept!
Nice move, nice touch to the all of us in the ACVW comunity.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Project_X on February 12, 2008, 02:50:20 am
Hi there!

Finally I got the time to put the "Mouse Motor" on the dyno and this is what I see.

POWER:138,8kW 188.7hp/7670rpm
TORQUE:192.4Nm/6100rpm(138,7lbs)

The ignition and fuel curve is optimized, the main venturies is 37mm, main jets is 145 the air is 160 idle jets are 65f10 and the E-tubes are F7.I will go bigger with the main venturies, the first step will be 39mm, this will hopefully raise the output alittle bit more and get me closer to the calculated max power rpm(8000).I will post a video later.


Talk to you later
Johannes



Thats awesome!
Now send it to Or. Florida and I'll be happy to test it in my bug....course I wouldnt ship it back to you  ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: eugene on February 12, 2008, 04:36:07 am
I think that Johannes build has shown what the modern understanding of flow, chamber shape, compression ratios, part limitations, coupled to engineering and practical knowledge really mean.  The beauty of the build is also in use of original parts that the vw have somewhat rejected as unworthy. The hot roders spirit we admire, is back with such builds. Bravo!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: BeetleBug on February 12, 2008, 09:07:10 am
I think that Johannes build has shown what the modern understanding of flow, chamber shape, compression ratios, part limitations, coupled to engineering and practical knowledge really mean.  The beauty of the build is also in use of original parts that the vw have somewhat rejected as unworthy. The hot roders spirit we admire, is back with such builds. Bravo!


I think you hit the nail on the head with your first post here on The Lounge and I totally agree - congrats with the impressive results Johannes!

Best rgs
Kalle


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Tobi/DFL on February 12, 2008, 09:59:45 am
Iīm simply overwhelmed by those numbers! Thanks a lot for sharing so much knowledge with us, Johannes!

Tobi


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Tom G. on February 12, 2008, 12:50:14 pm
I can only repeat...AWESOME....117 HP/L.......

Tom


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Trond Dahl on February 12, 2008, 13:26:58 pm
Don't ask why I didn't do this before, but the info and result on this thread is worth a lot! but the least I can do is make this thread a sticky.
Congratulations Johannes with the result (so far)

Trond:-)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: n2o on February 12, 2008, 16:01:57 pm
Some years back, I read in HotVW about an engine builder contest. This was won by Pat Downs from CB-Performance.

I do not recal the numbers from that contest, but with 117hp/liter (1603ccm) I would imagine that this mouse motor would have been noticed.


Would we see 120hp/liter when the chokes is optimized??


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Project_X on February 12, 2008, 16:28:23 pm
Id love to have a motor like this but I dont think my budget would allow it.MMMM... could you imagin taking that motor in a bug to the strip and beating  a v8 LOL or some japanese car?
So Johannes how long would this motor last?Also when are the 86mm pistons going to be available in America for us to use  ;) ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jim Ratto on February 12, 2008, 17:52:24 pm
Johannes, congratulations on your accomplishment, it is great to see somebody achieve such a high specific output from a VW, especially one that accomodates so many factory-style parts (like the cylinder heads). I was enrolled in a camshaft-theory class back in 2000, and was working on a project of 2332cc to make 100hp/liter and run on street, but never achieved my goal (I think 100hp/liter with large single cylinder displacement would be too difficult to do with VW-style heads, etc, maybe things have changed...)
If you don't mind sharing, when you se the intake centerline on your motor, where did you set it to? On street motors with 260' + @.050" I have been setting them @ 104 ATDC, because I was taught this increases throttle response and build cylinder pressure faster. I don't have hard data saying this is what to do, only what I was taught. Do you mind sharing your thoughts on the cam in your engine, and where you set it up at?

Again, congratulations.  :)

Jim Ratto


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on February 12, 2008, 21:00:36 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9868ihgGVk8
The dyno pull is from 2500rpm to 8500rpm in fourth gear (60-190km/h or 37,5mph-118,75mph).


(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/039.jpg)
Today I just had to finish the "Mouse Motor" project and changed the main venturies from 37 to 39mm.
The engine responded really good with an improvement from 138,8-143,3kW or 188,7-194,9hp the torque increased from 191-195Nm (138-141lbs).
The attiude of this engine is really something, nice and smoth at idle and kicks really hard if you want it to.

There would probably be some more improvements with bigger venturies but as it is now there is no bog or hassitation between low and high circuit and as this engine is to be used on the street I prefere to have it like this.When using too big venturies you often notice a hassitation between low and high circuit even sometimes with the third progression hole modification.

The purple curve is engine power and the green curve is wheel power.

Thank you guys for all possitive input and if you have questions do not hassitate to ask.

We are lucky to have an outstanding forum like this.

Regards
Johannes



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Rasser on February 12, 2008, 22:03:11 pm
IMFUCKINGPRESSIVE!!!!

Amazing numbers Johannes, congrats.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Kiel on February 12, 2008, 22:05:39 pm
Super..................


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: JS on February 12, 2008, 22:23:37 pm
Looking forward to see this one on SCC!!!   ;)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: dirk zeyen on February 12, 2008, 22:30:10 pm
restpect!!!

you are the "head-guru" ;D so much flow with small valves! i think the right combination of all the engineparts makes the "little difference".

dirk zeyen


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jim Ratto on February 12, 2008, 22:45:30 pm
hi Again, Johannes....

also, aside from your thoughts on cam timing, what did you select for emulsion tubes and jets for this last dyno session?

Thanks,

Jim


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Lee.C on February 12, 2008, 23:13:07 pm
I knew these little "mouse motors" could make the BIG numbers  ;) :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: eugene on February 13, 2008, 02:28:54 am
How goes the old saying about displacement?  ;)

I have a question for Johannes (or others) if you don't mind to share. How do you determine the intake and exhaust tuning length (second and third order)? I have tried to use a equation from an engineering book but the numbers you gave in some other post didn't wont to fall out.  I know that the the variables are the cam intake/exhaust duration, rpm-time, gas velocity and speed of sound but i apparently i'm missing something.

Congrats Johannes on the results. Outstanding work!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Project_X on February 13, 2008, 04:49:04 am
Awesome just awesome...I love it.Any idea what this baby would do at the track just for kicks?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: n2o on February 13, 2008, 06:35:38 am
.....121.58hp/liter...




Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: folkevogn on February 13, 2008, 07:45:13 am
Awesome just awesome...I love it.Any idea what this baby would do at the track just for kicks?

JHU told me that JPM had done some calculations with the number he had from the first dyno pull where it "only" made 188hp  ;D and with a 730kg car(included driver) the calculation said 11.97 on the 1/4 mile. Thats pretty fast with a 1603ccm!But thats just theory, the only way to find out is to race it 8)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: folkevogn on February 13, 2008, 09:00:30 am
Once again Johannes, just awsome!
Looking at the photo of the power graph, it seems to be two small bumps in the curve. Is this where the rpm is between 1th and 2nd order, 2nd and 3th order? or is there another reason?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on February 13, 2008, 10:38:22 am
Hi Jim,
The camshaft is a fk45@108 and I dailed it 105deg intake centerline, too much advance will hurt the the overall performance because the exhaust changes too in a negative way and at a point the intakevalve will close too early and you lose a lot of top end power.I use to look at the closing point for the intake valve regarding to how good the heads are and the displacement of the engine, too late closing point will hurt the all over performance.If your heads are good you can close the intake valve earlier without losing top end power because the heads will still keep the VE high as the rpm goes up and your midrange will be superior.So from my experience the hardest part in chosing a cam is to determine when the intake valve should close, when you have desided the closing point chose duration so the intake valve does not hit the piston at tdc including the depth of your valvepockets.
Hopefully you see my point.

With the 39mm venturies the mains are 160,air180 and still F7 E-tubes, at low and midrange the A/F is too fat that is why there are small bumps around 4-5k rpm, maybe with F-16 or F-9 E-tubes I can get rid of those.The F-7 E-tube is a very fat tube at low and mid range the F-16 or 9 is a lot leaner.

Regards
Johannes


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on February 13, 2008, 13:08:25 pm
There is something very appealing with these small capacity engines. This might be optimised far beyond what you can buy of the shelf today, but still I think it opens our minds to see the possibilities out there. First of all the Weber 48 is a HUGE performance carburator to this engine, also the "mandatory" counterweighted crank is stiffer. I bet there is a golden halfway between, cost physical size, performance and COOLNESS, and this engine can't be very far from it.

40x35,5 valves and 195 horses from 1603 cc?!  I want more of these threads!!  ;)   


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Project_X on February 13, 2008, 15:22:10 pm
195hp...very impressive, how much more are gonna go? LOL

For the pistons, if one was to build one similar to this motor or close could the Porsche 356 86mm pistons be used?Also since a 7lb flywheel cost 700.00 here where I'm at, could a 11-12.5lb lightened flywheel be used?
And could any head porter do a 043 head like this with the welds, and the FK45 cam, you have is a engle cam or was it a modified one.I seen on the first page you have a cam with 2 profiles I guess, if I understand that, not sure.
Thanks


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on February 13, 2008, 15:29:18 pm
Hi Eugene,
I use to tune on third order up to 8000rpm and then the second above 8000rpm.
Using the second order on low rpm gives you very long manifolds which many times decreases the total flow of the intake system.

Third order:2460000/rpm=total intake length(mm).
Second order:3350000/rpm=total intake length(mm).

The length on the "Mouse Motor"s manifold are about 15mm too long from calculation that is one reason it peaks at lower rpm.

Regards
Johannes


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Zach Gomulka on February 13, 2008, 15:36:53 pm
Holy crap!

So let me get this straight... is this 195 wheel horsepower??? or is it corrected flywheel horsepower??

And also, whats the compression???

Good work! ;)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Roman on February 13, 2008, 15:47:47 pm
Impressive to say the least.
It is corrected flywheel horsepower. The rear wheel horsepower is "only" 180.5!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Rune on February 13, 2008, 15:52:46 pm
And also, whats the compression???

The original spec list on page two says a compression of 12,0:1. Not sure if this is what it ended up with.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: BeetleBug on February 13, 2008, 16:42:00 pm
"We are lucky to have an outstanding forum like this.

Regards
Johannes"


No - we`re lucky to have you around sharing you knowlegde with the rest of us. Truly amazing and insipiring - thanks Johannes!

Best rgs
Kalle


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on February 13, 2008, 16:48:06 pm
Hi Zack,
The comp ratio ended up at 12,32:1 and the power is corrected(DIN) at flywheel(as Roman said) about 1% less than the late SAE hp.
It is thanks to welded chambers otherwise it would be really hard to achive.

Regards
Johannes


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Harry/FDK on February 13, 2008, 17:29:26 pm
"We are lucky to have an outstanding forum like this.

Regards
Johannes"


No - we`re lucky to have you around sharing you knowlegde with the rest of us. Truly amazing and insipiring - thanks Johannes!

Best rgs
Kalle

ABSOLUTELY!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Airspeed on February 13, 2008, 17:45:47 pm

(http://www.v-dubs.no/jhu/project/jpm/039.jpg)
if you have questions do not hassitate to ask.

Johannes,
I am very curieus about the small (gearbox and driveline) loss you have over the flywheel hp: Only 11.4 kW on a total of 143.3 kW! Thats just 8% :o
The 132.4 is at the rear wheel, so with a 'normal' loss of about 15-18% the FWhp would have been (is) even (much) more... ;D

Do you have extremely good gearbox oil or something that explains this?

Tnx,
Walter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jim Ratto on February 13, 2008, 17:49:43 pm
Hi Jim,
The camshaft is a fk45@108 and I dailed it 105deg intake centerline, too much advance will hurt the the overall performance because the exhaust changes too in a negative way and at a point the intakevalve will close too early and you lose a lot of top end power.I use to look at the closing point for the intake valve regarding to how good the heads are and the displacement of the engine, too late closing point will hurt the all over performance.If your heads are good you can close the intake valve earlier without losing top end power because the heads will still keep the VE high as the rpm goes up and your midrange will be superior.So from my experience the hardest part in chosing a cam is to determine when the intake valve should close, when you have desided the closing point chose duration so the intake valve does not hit the piston at tdc including the depth of your valvepockets.
Hopefully you see my point.

With the 39mm venturies the mains are 160,air180 and still F7 E-tubes, at low and midrange the A/F is too fat that is why there are small bumps around 4-5k rpm, maybe with F-16 or F-9 E-tubes I can get rid of those.The F-7 E-tube is a very fat tube at low and mid range the F-16 or 9 is a lot leaner.

Regards
Johannes

Thanks Johannes, interesting way to look at cam timing. I forget the lesson I was taught about cams, but there was a hierarchy of valve timing events that related to the 4 strokes of the motor.... I think # 1 event considered, according to class was exhaust opening, for "blowdown" but I don't remember, so obviously, I don't use that lesson for cam decision. The thoughts behind the intake center @ 104 was to get valve full open at piston position of fastest acceleration. I have noticed something with FK45 (I run same cam in my 94mm x 78mm, 541cc per cyl) that I haven't experienced with other cams, in engine response, and I don't know if it is my timing of cam or the cam itself.

A topic for another thread.  :)

Jim


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: nicolas on February 13, 2008, 20:29:21 pm
very nice accomplishment. hats off for you!



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Trond Dahl on February 13, 2008, 20:35:28 pm
"We are lucky to have an outstanding forum like this.

Regards
Johannes"


No - we`re lucky to have you around sharing you knowlegde with the rest of us. Truly amazing and insipiring - thanks Johannes!

Best rgs
Kalle

I second that, the forum is just the facilitator... Its the people that make it what it is... so thank YOU guys


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Gabetion2000 on February 15, 2008, 04:10:30 am
Hello everybody,
I am a first time poster in the cal look lounge. And I have to say that this forum is awesome. Especially this thread. I have alway been
interested in mouse motors ,and planned on building one in the future. Awesome info guys. Keep it up.

Gabe Scott
Ventura,CA
USA


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: BeetleBug on February 15, 2008, 09:01:45 am
Hello everybody,
I am a first time poster in the cal look lounge. And I have to say that this forum is awesome. Especially this thread. I have alway been
interested in mouse motors ,and planned on building one in the future. Awesome info guys. Keep it up.

Gabe Scott
Ventura,CA
USA

Hi Gabe and welcome to The Lounge! Don`t forget to keep the rest of us in the loop when you start building your mouse engine.

Best rgs
BeetleBug


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on February 15, 2008, 09:44:18 am
When you have decided the closing point chose duration so the intake valve does not hit the piston at tdc including the depth of your valve pockets.

Could you explain this for us dummies, Johannes?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on February 15, 2008, 12:08:50 pm
Hello there,

JHU, I ment that you should open the intake valve early because you want as much flow available as possible when the piston accelerates down(more flow area under the curve), but there are mekanical limitations you have to deal with(valve hitting piston).
I decided to cloce the intake valve 57deg abdc @ 0,05", then the fk45 became a good choise together with 1,55:1 rockers.
I am close to 6mm lift @ tdc so the valvepockets are pritty deep.
Maybe I am not clear enought ,please let me know.

Regads
Johannes


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on February 15, 2008, 12:39:20 pm
That helped quite a bit, thanks.  :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Eddie DVK on February 15, 2008, 17:09:50 pm
Damn I speechless and that doesn t happen that often.
Very very cool and that with stock parts appart from the pistons..
......
Where can I bring mine 1600............ ;)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jim Ratto on February 15, 2008, 17:34:58 pm
Hello everybody,
I am a first time poster in the cal look lounge. And I have to say that this forum is awesome. Especially this thread. I have alway been
interested in mouse motors ,and planned on building one in the future. Awesome info guys. Keep it up.

Gabe Scott
Ventura,CA
USA

Wow... a neighbor...I'm in Simi.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on February 18, 2008, 22:35:49 pm
Johannes,

As suggested on here many times already great effort with the motor, and some really interesting insight, but best of all, itís great to see someone actually doing it, rather than just talking about it.

I was wondering what fuel you were using as I see you will be running the motor on the street with the CR set at 12.3:1, also how do you find the cooling with such a high CR on the street?

Thanks again for you part in a great thread

Peter




Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on February 19, 2008, 09:10:33 am
Hi Peter,
Good to hear that you like the project.
I use our best pump gas "V-Power" from Shell gas stations, Shell says 99 octane.
When you are using a smaller diameter piston the heat transfer thrue the piston rings to the cylinder are better than with a bigger piston.
The area of a circle increases by the square, the circumference does not, that is why a smaller piston can use higher CR.
I always use the cooling fan from a 1303 bug then you need a really good oil cooler with electrical fan and all your cooling tins has to fit to 100%, no leakage.

Regards
Johannes



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Harry/FDK on February 19, 2008, 17:48:43 pm
Fantastic Project Johannes, Youre a hard working artist !
BTW, maybe you have seen the Topic: Drilling Your Heads (Cooling Fins), by me dummy.  Do You have experimented with this ? Or maybe share your thoughts ?

Thanks,
Harry


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: sonic on February 22, 2008, 18:40:35 pm
Its nearly unbeliveble Johannes
Could sombody go there to witness this , longlivity and torque must be hurting , live in Baastad from time to time ,
like to visit ...
Its more effective than a 1000 RR bike  , like whatch that..
Reg
Erich.
"lot more than impressed"...



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: speedwell on February 22, 2008, 22:07:46 pm
how does it cost for a similar motor ??? just simple question  ::)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Lee.C on February 23, 2008, 02:38:28 am
Yeah Johannes lets have a rough idea of hours/cost involved  ??? ;) :)

I would REALLY like to know how many hours went into those heads  ;) :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on February 26, 2008, 08:26:47 am
Hi there,

I will soon post a list with the parts used in the "Mouse Motor" and prices.

Monkiboy, I have spent between 40 to 50 hours on the heads from start to finish including flow tests and welding.

Regards
Johannes


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Type1/DVK on February 26, 2008, 09:48:56 am
looking forward to it! (and many others i think  ;))  a whole week in the heads  :o


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Udo on February 26, 2008, 18:44:41 pm
Hi there,

I will soon post a list with the parts used in the "Mouse Motor" and prices.

Monkiboy, I have spent between 40 to 50 hours on the heads from start to finish including flow tests and welding.

Regards
Johannes

Hi Johannes
For German street use i would relocate the spark plugs .  ;) 

Udo


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on February 26, 2008, 22:32:13 pm
Hello,
Here is the parts list.
Most of the parts are from CB performance but some from CSP in Germany, CSP in Sweden and JPM.

IDA carb kit 1099,95
Heads 043 bare pair 211,9
CB Ti valves  503,6
OTEVA 75 valve springs 185
JPM ti retainer 173
JPM rockers 1046
Push rods 49,95
Push rod tubes 167 CSP
Cam 104
Lifters 22,95
Cam gears Magnum 172 CSP
Bearings 39,85
Oil pump 27,95
Pump cover full flow 28
JE pistons 1206
Cylinder kit 165
Fuel pump block off 4,95
009 dist 109,95
Compufire 63,95
Cables 27,95
Valve covers 12,95
Clips 5,95
Gasket kit 9,95
Oil sealing flywheel 3,95
Clutch disc 29,95
Pressure plate Kennedy 180mm 179
Flywheel bolt 56
Deep sump 105
Lash caps 12,95
Pully 18,95
Pully bolt 4,95
Cyl studs 119
Header S&S 1 5/8 332
Old engine 155


Total parts 6454 USD.

Hopefully I did not forget too many parts.

The time I spent on the total build is aprox 100 hours(night hours).

Regards
Johannes





Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jim Ratto on February 26, 2008, 22:36:22 pm
Nice of you to take the time to come up and share the list... thanks Johannes

off topic, I am sorry, but could you read my thread in Cal Look section about Porsche valve timing characteristics, powerband, etc?

here it is: http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php?topic=4395.0

Thank you


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: richie on February 27, 2008, 05:48:43 am
Hello,
Here is the parts list.
Most of the parts are from CB performance but some from CSP in Germany, CSP in Sweden and JPM.

IDA carb kit 1099,95
Heads 043 bare pair 211,9
CB Ti valves  503,6
OTEVA 75 valve springs 185
JPM ti retainer 173
JPM rockers 1046
Push rods 49,95
Push rod tubes 167 CSP
Cam 104
Lifters 22,95
Cam gears Magnum 172 CSP
Bearings 39,85
Oil pump 27,95
Pump cover full flow 28
JE pistons 1206
Cylinder kit 165
Fuel pump block off 4,95
009 dist 109,95
Compufire 63,95
Cables 27,95
Valve covers 12,95
Clips 5,95
Gasket kit 9,95
Oil sealing flywheel 3,95
Clutch disc 29,95
Pressure plate Kennedy 180mm 179
Flywheel bolt 56
Deep sump 105
Lash caps 12,95
Pully 18,95
Pully bolt 4,95
Cyl studs 119
Header S&S 1 5/8 332
Old engine 155


Total parts 6454 USD.

Hopefully I did not forget too many parts.

The time I spent on the total build is aprox 100 hours(night hours).

Regards
Johannes





Wow,there some pricey parts in there for a little 1600 :D    Johannes which lifters did you use at only 22.95?   cheers richie,uk


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on February 27, 2008, 15:49:00 pm
Hi Richie,
The lifters are std VW part # 1512 at CB.

Regards
Johannes


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Udo on February 28, 2008, 20:31:28 pm
Nice of you to take the time to come up and share the list... thanks Johannes

off topic, I am sorry, but could you read my thread in Cal Look section about Porsche valve timing characteristics, powerband, etc?

here it is: http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php?topic=4395.0

Thank you


2,0 ltr and 185 hp is the same we had on our last Kšfercup circuit engiens . They worked good and the whole race season without problems

Udo


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: n2o on February 29, 2008, 15:39:50 pm
Hello,
Here is the parts list.
Most of the parts are from CB performance but some from CSP in Germany, CSP in Sweden and JPM.

IDA carb kit 1099,95
Heads 043 bare pair 211,9
CB Ti valves  503,6
OTEVA 75 valve springs 185
JPM ti retainer 173
JPM rockers 1046
Push rods 49,95
Push rod tubes 167 CSP
Cam 104
Lifters 22,95
Cam gears Magnum 172 CSP
Bearings 39,85
Oil pump 27,95
Pump cover full flow 28
JE pistons 1206
Cylinder kit 165
Fuel pump block off 4,95
009 dist 109,95
Compufire 63,95
Cables 27,95
Valve covers 12,95
Clips 5,95
Gasket kit 9,95
Oil sealing flywheel 3,95
Clutch disc 29,95
Pressure plate Kennedy 180mm 179
Flywheel bolt 56
Deep sump 105
Lash caps 12,95
Pully 18,95
Pully bolt 4,95
Cyl studs 119
Header S&S 1 5/8 332
Old engine 155


Total parts 6454 USD.

Hopefully I did not forget too many parts.

The time I spent on the total build is aprox 100 hours(night hours).

Regards
Johannes





Wow,there some pricey parts in there for a little 1600 :D    Johannes which lifters did you use at only 22.95?   cheers richie,uk

Are lifters normaly expencive?

In my engines I use STD lifters (made in mexico), and when used with easy cams (nice ramp open/close) like my fk-98, I do not feel the need for anything else. (BTW its a race engine, maybe street engines need other types of lifter)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on March 03, 2008, 09:32:18 am
Thats exactly it n2o, with K800's you don't need to gamble on lifters, sticking to VW's own.... so am I, until I learn  ;D
And a race engine has it easy compared to a street engine...

CHECK out the mouse in the house!!

http://www.griebel.blogspot.com/ (http://www.griebel.blogspot.com/)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Diederick/DVK on March 04, 2008, 00:44:28 am
how about web cams? i read you can't use std lifters with those... ???


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Harry/FDK on March 05, 2008, 16:39:51 pm
Webcam with SLR treated Lube-A-Lobes works absolutely perfect for me. (Aircooled.net)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: BeetleBug on March 06, 2008, 09:09:27 am
how about web cams? i read you can't use std lifters with those... ???

Why not?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Diederick/DVK on March 06, 2008, 17:20:51 pm
no idea, that's why i'm asking.
lately i've come to a conclusion that stock lifters aren't that bad after all ;)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: BeetleBug on March 06, 2008, 22:38:32 pm
As long as you have enough spring pressure I do think every lifter is good enough. To little and every lifter would pit - no matter what.

Best rgs
BB


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: 71CALRIPPER on March 07, 2008, 10:38:25 am
Having just read this thread while eating my cereal at work , i have a massive grin on my face.

Well done guys !!!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: n2o on March 07, 2008, 20:30:10 pm
Having just read this thread while eating my cereal at work , i have a massive grin on my face.

Well done guys !!!

That must have been a big bowl of cereal.. ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: 71CALRIPPER on March 11, 2008, 12:45:04 pm
yeah went soggy at the end :)

Its a great thread , spoken to my engine builder his voice piked up when i said fancy doing a mouse motor :)



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Roman on May 30, 2008, 19:28:16 pm
I was talking to Johannes on tuesday and he was working on the new car with the mouse motor. He planned to be ready to Bug Run in Sweden next weekend.
Can't wait to see it!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on May 31, 2008, 00:34:45 am
Yes, its going to be some Mouse racing over there!! COOL!!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Rocket-Racing on May 31, 2008, 00:42:20 am
Cool! Can't wait to see it lined up aginst a big cc car and see how it performs. "Are you a mouse or a man?"  ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on May 31, 2008, 00:49:42 am
Wonder how much he can shave of his ET with a piece of cheese at the end of the strip?? :P


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Rocket-Racing on May 31, 2008, 02:03:31 am
He only has one car to fear..


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Per Ericson on June 05, 2008, 07:37:11 am
Some pictures taken yesterday at Meca Raceway in MalmŲ
(http://www.vwcsp.se/Per/DSC_0048.jpg)
Nice interior
(http://www.vwcsp.se/Per/DSC_0049.jpg)
The mouse motor
(http://www.vwcsp.se/Per/DSC_0052.jpg)
(http://www.vwcsp.se/Per/DSC_0056.jpg)
(http://www.vwcsp.se/Per/DSC_0059.jpg)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on June 05, 2008, 08:15:13 am
The mouse is alive!! Congratulations with your new car Johannes!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Mags on June 05, 2008, 08:30:09 am
Congratulation with new Car Johannes,se you this weekend.

Magne


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on June 05, 2008, 09:42:41 am
.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on June 05, 2008, 09:43:18 am
.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: BeetleBug on June 05, 2008, 09:46:13 am
Now that IS indeed a mouse engine! Congrats with the time slip and the new car!

Best rgs
BB


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on June 05, 2008, 11:21:51 am
WOW!! 7.45 that is what... a 11.90 or something?
See you at the track at BugRun!!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: JS on June 05, 2008, 22:03:09 pm
Congratulations with car, timeslip and engine! AMAZING! See you this weekend.  :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on June 06, 2008, 08:30:59 am
Hi there,
Hope you all are doing well.

The day before yesterday I went to Mecca raceway, an 1/8 mile racetrack, with my new car and the Mouse Motor.
First pass 7,56s/144.46km/h(90,28mph) second pass 7,45s/146,7km/h(91,68mph), the track conditions were very good.

I am now preparing for Bug Run this weekend, hope to see some of you there.

BTW I still have a Big Grin from ear to ear in my face.

Regards
Johannes


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Lee.C on June 06, 2008, 10:41:03 am
WOW that is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL its really good to see a mouse motor running number like that - is this the engine you built and showed on here resently  ???

I might be dropping you a line soon about building MY "mouse motor"  ;) :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Frallan on June 06, 2008, 23:16:04 pm
Hi Johannes!

The big grin is on my face too.
Congratulations!!!
This is fun.
Apart from the engine I do love the interior of your car.  I intend to do the same of putting in some beutifying stuff.
It comes out very good.
I have my Tetra Pak friend with an ugly blue Chevelle runing 10-12 rounds down the strip last Wednesday (503 cui / 550 hp injected daily driver, 7.70s) and he was very impressed with these beetles. I guess it was Niclas in Herbie 53 in the other lane?
He was so excited about it all that he picked up the phone and briefed me long distance.
I am very proud on your behalf.
Good luck at BG.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: 58vw on June 08, 2008, 18:34:42 pm
awesome job....very nice car to...congrats


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: christophe on June 08, 2008, 20:18:49 pm
Well,I guess I'm the first back on the lounge after BugRun.
So here is the news.Johannes made a 11,58s run on saturday!!!!
Just AMAZING!!!
And the car is soooo nice too!!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jesse/DVK on June 08, 2008, 21:04:08 pm
A very nice car!

In the setup list I see you're using a 180mm flywheel. I'm thinking of buildling myself an engine but everyone advices me a 200mm flywheel. Why did you choose for a 180mm flywheel?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on June 09, 2008, 00:24:53 am
Johannes thanks for MAKING my weekend!!

Case: original AS41
Crank:German stock
Rods:German stock
Pistons:JE 86mm 24mm comp hight
Cylinders:Stock 85,5mm honed to 86mm
Heads:043 40x35mm valves
Compression:12,0:1
Rockers:Jpm two stud 1,5:1 ratio
P-rods:Manton 3/8" cromoly
Cam:Fk45in/Fk44 ex
Cam gears:Magnum
Oilpump:26mm
Deepsump:1,5lit
Flywheel:180mm stock lightend
Clutch disc:cush lock
Pressure plate:Kennedy
Header:Custom made 1 5/8" tuned length
Manifolds:Custom made tuned length(second order)
Carbs:IDA 48


I don't think anyone on here could belive that this was a recipie for a 11.5 engine.... except you!
And it sounds smooth as silk when it runs... :o :o
Mouse motor fans out there, keep the dreams alive!  8)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Frallan on June 09, 2008, 01:31:59 am
Thank god you guys are back and give some report fom BG.
11.58s!!!
You do not disapoint. That is for sure.

This thread and specifically you Johannes is so much fun that I added this infomrtaion and link on both STF and Cal look lounge-drag racing. It is for sure worth sharing to a wider audience.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Frallan on June 09, 2008, 02:35:20 am
11.58???

I cant melt it. Over breakfast I just did not get it too match.
What have you done?

7.5 on the eighth is just barely in to the 11.99 on the quarter. Now the 92 mph indicates you could cut another tenth at MECA on the eigth.
92 mph on the eight could get you in to 11.8 (maybe 11.7) on the quarter if you have an extremely light car but I think you have mentioned around 730 kg and that is 1600lbs.
Is the 11.58 correct?

Help me understand.
You need another 20 hp compared to the 92 mph so have you lowered the weight or what have you done since a week back?
Now it will be very interesting to see what mph you had?
112 mph / 180 km/h ?

Do you know exact weight of car and yourself? Stupid question. Knowing you, ofcourse you do.



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: dangerous on June 09, 2008, 05:25:44 am
Thanks for the link Frallan!
Awesome info.
Congrats Johannes, awesome times and effort to see the project through.

Love the combo (and 180mm clutch).
 ;)

Please can you re-post the pics of the heads and chambers Johannes?
(from a few pages back are not there any more).

(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n216/dangerous_05/New180disc.jpg)



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on June 09, 2008, 08:33:42 am
The web server with the pics on are temporarily down, they are working to get them back up. Sorry


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: ESH on June 09, 2008, 09:11:05 am
That's an impressive time for sure. Looking forward to seeing if you can squeeze any more out of it.

 8)

monkiboy's 69x101 Angle Flow "mouse motor" should be interesting!

 :P


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Lee.C on June 09, 2008, 09:50:41 am
That's an impressive time for sure. Looking forward to seeing if you can squeeze any more out of it.

 8)

monkiboy's 69x101 Angle Flow "mouse motor" should be interesting!

 :P

Hmmm 69x101 interesting  :D :D :D I can't wait to see this one run at SCC and have a chat with Johannes ;) :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Rune on June 09, 2008, 15:57:56 pm
Congrats Johannes, really cool!  Both car and motor are good reflections to the JPM brand, its all second to non!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on June 09, 2008, 20:32:10 pm
Hello,
Thanks for all "con grats".
It has been a really nice weekend with some good 1/4 mile passees with "The Screaming Mouse".
First pass went 11,79s/174,00km/h(108,75mph), second pass went 11,58s/177,01km/h(110,63mph) which I have some doubts about.
The time seems to be wrong but the speed are correct, it is a pitty because it was my best pass which also shows from the top speed, a realistic time would have been 11,70s.

So far the 11,79s is the fastest but maybe I can squeese a little bit more hp from the engine and do some more adjustments to my new car and hopefully cut a tenth or so.

Best regards
Johannes




Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: ugly duckling on June 09, 2008, 23:28:23 pm
great effort. preaty sneeky job on that glass front end it almost passes as a oem one. would like to hear the engine up in the rpm im sure it soundes real good. good luck with it and have a good time. congrats.  UD.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Tom G. on June 10, 2008, 13:06:07 pm
Film, videos :o :o???Someone could post?

Johannes you make a great job:-) It is a great research and developement on really highest level iīve ever seen..I hope we see us this year....Perhaps i come across to the dynoday..

Bye
Tom


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Lee.C on June 10, 2008, 13:22:54 pm
". preaty sneeky job on that glass front end it almost passes as a oem one."

I was fooled for alittle while too - VERY nice work dude  :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Oliver Frey on June 10, 2008, 14:10:59 pm
Johannes,

Very impressive work. I have followed this thread from the beginning to your very excellent 11.58 accomplishment! I have learned a lot.

This project definitely sounds fun.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Frallan on June 12, 2008, 16:18:53 pm
How about this turbo mouse?
1641 cc

I am impressed. I think of Bob Mc Clurgs 9 s beetle from the 70-80s.
The 2007 specs of the Hyper bug-car weight with driver-1835 U.S pounds, 6 inch slicks (not  6-W's)type 1 trans,3.88 R@P

stock 69 mm VW 8 dowel crank with welded counterweights
043 heads with dual springs and 1.25 rockers
single 40 mm idf carb
stock rods
MSD ignition

2008  update -Billet heads ,intakes,and pushrod tubes- designed and made by Adam Badgett, driver of the Hyper Bug.
who also fabricated the new exhaust system as seen in the last video below.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6oKqSLvbj0M

http://youtube.com/watch?v=d2k-guT9VpA

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wquvC1jeZQ8&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LstJ1c-vi30

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=W5aQXg9orkU&feature=related


http://youtube.com/watch?v=D7mJkqcanuU
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/billethead1.jpg)
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/billet2.jpg)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Oliver Frey on June 12, 2008, 16:32:37 pm
How about this turbo mouse?
1641 cc

I am impressed. I think of Bob Mc Clurgs 9 s beetle from the 70-80s.
The 2007 specs of the Hyper bug-car weight with driver-1835 U.S pounds, 6 inch slicks (not  6-W's)type 1 trans,3.88 R@P

stock 69 mm VW 8 dowel crank with welded counterweights
043 heads with dual springs and 1.25 rockers
single 40 mm idf carb
stock rods
MSD ignition

2008  update -Billet heads ,intakes,and pushrod tubes- designed and made by Adam Badgett, driver of the Hyper Bug.
who also fabricated the new exhaust system as seen in the last video below.

(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/billethead1.jpg)
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/billet2.jpg)

Frallan, I am personal friends with Adam and Freddy Bagget the owners of the Hyberbug. This car is amazing. it runs 6.20's in the 1/8. This year they have made some changes and are still working out the bugs. Adam works for a NASCAR team in the US and is a very talented CNC programmer.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on June 12, 2008, 23:39:41 pm
The mouse on the track....  talk about a sweet running engine?! Crank the volume!!

http://www.youtube.com/v/v15y0b480GY&hl


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Oliver Frey on June 13, 2008, 03:11:02 am
I'd really like to know how Johannes car is geared. I'm not taking anything away from his accomplishment (hell it's one of the coolest things I've seen in years), but gearing definitely comes into play with such a small engine.

Also where is the engine being shifted? In the video it sounds out of this world.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jee Ent. on June 13, 2008, 09:45:08 am
From another angle..

http://jeeent.blogspot.com/2008/06/bugrun-2008.html


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Zach Gomulka on June 13, 2008, 17:53:15 pm
Damn, I didnt know that was a 'glass front end until UD pointed it out, nice!!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: dangerous on June 14, 2008, 21:46:37 pm
it has a low ratio transaxel R/P 4.86:1  close ratio with 1.37:1 on the fourth gear.The rims are Saco five bolt and the tires are M&H 6x26-15.
On a small engine, the weight of the rotating engine parts has to be in relation to the vehicle weight and gearing.

Would love to know the other ratios too!!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on June 16, 2008, 10:38:45 am
Hi there,

The ratios in my transaxel is R/P 4,375:1
                                        First 3,44:1
                                    second 2,54:1
                                       third  1,71:1
                                      fourth 1,35:1

The shift point is 8,5k and it never falls under 6k.
6k is at max torque, with this gearing I use the engine between max torque and max power in all four gears, this is of course more important on a "Mouse Motor" than bigger engines.

Best regards
Johannes



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: dangerous on June 16, 2008, 11:27:32 am
Wow, thanks for sharing Johannes!



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Oliver Frey on June 16, 2008, 13:28:47 pm
Hello Johannes,

Thank you for sharing!

BTW I read that you plan on driving the engine on the street with full tin and cooling. will you be using the red early model or the Super?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Bruce on June 16, 2008, 21:20:31 pm
The ratios in my transaxel is R/P 4,375:1
                                        First 3,44:1
                                    second 2,54:1
                                       third  1,71:1
                                      fourth 1,35:1

Do you shift out of 1st before or after the 60' mark?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on June 17, 2008, 07:30:48 am
Hello,

Oliver Frey:My blue Super is retierd from the race track and I use it on a daily basis with a 2276,10,6:1 cr,fk 46,MS230  heads,JPM rockers two stud,scat 82 crank china,CB race rods,magnum straight cut,Phyton ex from CSP 45mm(very quiet),Keihin 41mm bike carbs making 222 very drivable hp.
My plan is to make the "Screaming Mouse"(red car) street legal for next year and do smaller trips with it , but the priority will be on the drag strip.

Bruce:I really do not know if I shift before or after the 60ft, probably after because a pritty long first gear.


Regards
Johannes


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Frallan on June 18, 2008, 17:30:50 pm

I just ran it in Drag racing analyzer and it comes out a shift right around the 60 ft mark or maybe just after at 63 feet with all whatever variables you might have.
I still miss the real weight of your car Johannes.
Playing a lot with the theoretical tool gives me more hp than what you have indicated, that is if your car isnīt even lighter than what has been indicated.
I also think we have a slightly wrong indication on Mantorp compared to Meca were you have the 60 ft too and reliable timing.
In no way can I simulate and match the Meca performance with Mantorp.

In any case, you have a real mighty mouse and you are very skilled in order to go that fast, first time out with new car AND new engine. Not just any engine either but what most of us will agree is fairly new territory.
Very few will do that.
(No, not that small cc engines did not go fast before but you have a new combo that is exceptional. Let me guess that you have a bunch of other improvement ideas that you are burning to test next year?)
Keep it up. As you must have noticed I am proud to "brag" about your achievements. It is just fun.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: rebel on June 18, 2008, 18:04:48 pm
Hello Johannes,
Did you modyfy the VW 69mm crank in any way other than 8 dowelling?
I ask, cause I've heard stock cranks are no good for high RPMs...


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Oliver Frey on June 18, 2008, 18:25:26 pm
Hello Johannes,
Did you modyfy the VW 69mm crank in any way other than 8 dowelling?
I ask, cause I've heard stock cranks are no good for high RPMs...

Counterweighted 69 mm probably.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: JS on June 18, 2008, 22:31:08 pm
Original Crank, no counterweights.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Lee.C on June 18, 2008, 23:00:51 pm
I know of an english guys who takes his STOCK VW crank to over 9000rpm ;) :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on June 19, 2008, 10:08:27 am
Hi,
The crank in the "MM" is a bone stock one, only 8 dowelled and carefully balanced.
Forces created to the crank is from the weight of pistons and con rods, longer stroke and high rpm creates higher G-forces that pulls and bends the crank, and this is no good for the case.
The counterweights helps the crank to be straight.
The pistons and rods in the "MM" is much lighter than stock which means that the need for counterweights are less, I do not say that you do not need them but you defenetly need them less than with 94mm piston and long stroke.

I will show you an example on force created to the crank with a light and heavy piston at the same rpm,stroke and con rod length.

Ex:69mm stroke,8500rpm,5.4"rod and 565g piston(std) F=19276N
Ex:69mm stroke,8500rpm,5.4"rod and 375g piston(JE)  F=12793N

As you can see the created force is 50% more with the heavy std piston.To reach 12793N with the 565g piston the rpm is aprox 6800.

Keeping the weight down will save your engine and make it last longer with more performance.

Regards
Johannes


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Rasser on June 19, 2008, 11:14:53 am
Hi,
The crank in the "MM" is a bone stock one, only 8 dowelled and carefully balanced.
Forces created to the crank is from the weight of pistons and con rods, longer stroke and high rpm creates higher G-forces that pulls and bends the crank, and this is no good for the case.
The counterweights helps the crank to be straight.
The pistons and rods in the "MM" is much lighter than stock which means that the need for counterweights are less, I do not say that you do not need them but you defenetly need them less than with 94mm piston and long stroke.

I will show you an example on force created to the crank with a light and heavy piston at the same rpm,stroke and con rod length.

Ex:69mm stroke,8500rpm,5.4"rod and 565g piston(std) F=19276N
Ex:69mm stroke,8500rpm,5.4"rod and 375g piston(JE)  F=12793N

As you can see the created force is 50% more with the heavy std piston.To reach 12793N with the 565g piston the rpm is aprox 6800.

Keeping the weight down will save your engine and make it last longer with more performance.

Regards
Johannes


You make it all sound so simple ;-)

impressive stuff for sure!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Oliver Frey on June 19, 2008, 14:54:36 pm
I stand corrected ;)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jordy/DVK on June 19, 2008, 22:33:35 pm
You make it all sound so simple ;-)

impressive stuff for sure!

It isn't all that hard if you look into it... Most of it is just common sense...

F=m*a    a is the same for equal RPMs so the bigger the m the bigger the F...


Problem is that the lighter the parts you buy, the lighter your wallet will get as well... :)


BTW. Does anyone know the difference in weight between STD rods and H-beams?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: dangerous on July 12, 2008, 07:51:25 am
Hey there Johannes,
would you be so kind as to post
some pictures of the chambers and both ports of the heads.
The old ones have vanished,
and I am going crazy with anticipation having ever seen them!
Regards,
Dave.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: 70Turbobug on August 24, 2008, 18:53:24 pm
Johannes you do amazing work!! Amazing results! A friend of mine bought your MS230 heads - fantastic product and great service! Thanks for sharing your projects with us!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Roman on September 15, 2008, 17:47:40 pm
Slightly off target but Brian Hyerstay (not sure about the spelling) runs a 1679 g/dragster into the low nines in the US and is said to produce around 220HP and goes through the lights at 11,000 rpm!

I talked to Brian a couple of days ago and the figures above seem to be correct. It is a VERY expensive engine though, SCAT flangded crank, titanium rods etc. No expenses spared!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Roman on September 15, 2008, 17:56:47 pm
The Screaming Mouse engine is sold to Greece, but I will make a 1679 based on the same concept to a friends G/Dragster.
As it is a pure race engine the compression will be slightly over 13:1, the cam will be a bit bigger and the intake valves will be 1 mm larger.
Heads by JPM and I will make the rest of the build.
The reson for going 1679 is that re rules for Competition Eliminator G/Dragster says 232 kg/liter and a minimum weight of 386 kg.
386/232= 1663 cc. If we have a 1679 we can weigh in on 390 kg including driver.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Rune on September 15, 2008, 18:21:57 pm
Sounds like an interesting project Anders.. Keep us posted. Going to dynoday?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on September 15, 2008, 23:02:47 pm
Wow Anders this sounds like a real challenge! I hope you will share your build and theories with us Loungers?!? I just wish I get to go to Dyno Day, but it doesn't look promising >:( Fill Rune with info for me  ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Roman on September 16, 2008, 16:26:36 pm
Yes, I am going to dyno day.
I will talk to the owner of the dragster and ask if it is OK to share the build, but I don't think there are any problems.



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Roman on September 20, 2008, 19:26:17 pm
I won't build any engine for Richards Dragster, at least this year. We ended up buying Brian Hyerstays spare 1680 engine, dynoed to 208 hp for a very reasonable price.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Diederick/DVK on September 21, 2008, 00:15:21 am
i'm sure we'd all love to hear some specs if that's what it's dyno-ed at!!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Roman on September 21, 2008, 08:45:56 am
i'm sure we'd all love to hear some specs if that's what it's dyno-ed at!!

Berg 69 mm wedgemated counterweighted crank
Berg Thick wall 88's with berg special pistons with dykes rings
Berg Pushrods
Carrillo rods
Stock heads ported by Dick Nuss @ EMS with 42 x 37.5 Del West titanium valves
12.5 compression

Dyoned at Adam Wik's dyno.
197 hp@ 7500 rpm, 198@8000 rpm , 208@8500 rpm, 197@9000 rpm

Best ET 9.28


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Project_X on September 21, 2008, 15:23:47 pm
i'm sure we'd all love to hear some specs if that's what it's dyno-ed at!!

Berg 69 mm wedgemated counterweighted crank
Berg Thick wall 88's with berg special pistons with dykes rings
Berg Pushrods
Carrillo rods
Stock heads ported by Dick Nuss @ EMS with 42 x 37.5 Del West titanium valves
12.5 compression

Dyoned at Adam Wik's dyno.
197 hp@ 7500 rpm, 198@8000 rpm , 208@8500 rpm, 197@9000 rpm

Best ET 9.28


Nice, sounds similar to what I want to do when I start on my bug again (moms been in the hospital since July, sick since April, so the bugs on hold till December or later)
I still play with ideas though.
This one is the one I do want to do after seeing that 1600cc earlier in this thread.
1600cc
Forged 85.5's
Forged c/w wedgemated 69mm crank
5.5" connecting rods
Engle FK10 cam
Forged cam gear
10:1 Compression
CB Performances CNC Round ported heads
port matched intakes
Dual 40 or 44IDF's
1 5/8" merged header w/ stinger
Pertronix ignition kit

All to be streetable running on 93 octane
 ;D I was told its doable so who knows.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Diederick/DVK on September 21, 2008, 21:57:50 pm
sounds high strung, but i ain't no expert ;)
why wouldn't you go for a few more cc's with machine 88s?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Project_X on September 22, 2008, 04:25:02 am
sounds high strung, but i ain't no expert ;)
why wouldn't you go for a few more cc's with machine 88s?

Well I like that 1600cc at the beginning and i want one to :(
Accept I cant afford those 86mm pistons LOL
Is high strung bad?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on September 22, 2008, 10:18:10 am
Is high strung bad?

OHHH no! The most bang for the cc!! is fun!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Roman on September 22, 2008, 18:04:48 pm

Nice, sounds similar to what I want to do when I start on my bug again (moms been in the hospital since July, sick since April, so the bugs on hold till December or later)
I still play with ideas though.
This one is the one I do want to do after seeing that 1600cc earlier in this thread.
1600cc
Forged 85.5's
Forged c/w wedgemated 69mm crank
5.5" connecting rods
Engle FK10 cam
Forged cam gear
10:1 Compression
CB Performances CNC Round ported heads
port matched intakes
Dual 40 or 44IDF's
1 5/8" merged header w/ stinger
Pertronix ignition kit

All to be streetable running on 93 octane
 ;D I was told its doable so who knows.

I don't want to dissapoint you but it won't make any monster horsepower. I called Pat Downs some days ago about a budget small CC engine and he suggested CNC ported Comp eliminators a 1915 and that would maybe be able to do about 210 hp...
There is no off the shelf heads today that can make 123 hp per liter. I know that both EMS and JPM charges about $4500 for these kind of heads.

You won't need any wedgemate either, an 8-dowel done right will work perfect.
Skip the aftermarket rods and spend them on the pistons instead. Go for a 1 1/2" exhaust instead of a 1 5/8".


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Zach Gomulka on September 22, 2008, 18:06:50 pm
The Carrillo's in the dragster motor are only 5" long as I remember.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Project_X on September 23, 2008, 03:15:24 am
How about if I used slip in 87's with a slip in 74mm crank then, but with the same combo above?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Bewitched666 on September 23, 2008, 07:24:13 am
awesome,i like the mouse motor trends ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Zach Gomulka on September 23, 2008, 20:11:58 pm
How about if I used slip in 87's with a slip in 74mm crank then, but with the same combo above?

Sounds like a Claude's Buggie's motor from 1985.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Project_X on September 25, 2008, 03:40:58 am
How about if I used slip in 87's with a slip in 74mm crank then, but with the same combo above?

Sounds like a Claude's Buggie's motor from 1985.

Who?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: stealth67vw on September 25, 2008, 06:03:12 am
How about if I used slip in 87's with a slip in 74mm crank then, but with the same combo above?

Sounds like a Claude's Buggie's motor from 1985.

Who?
Claudes Buggies. Now known as CB Performance.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on September 28, 2008, 01:37:34 am
How about a small mouse? Actually a very small mouse...  a Quarter Mouse!!
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/270920081744.jpg)
Picture by Fredrik "Frallan" Reichel


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Lee.C on September 28, 2008, 01:57:05 am
How about a small mouse? Actually a very small mouse...  a Quarter Mouse!!
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/270920081744.jpg)
Picture by Fredrik "Frallan" Reichel

 ??? :o ??? :o ??? :o ??? ;) :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Project_X on September 28, 2008, 04:19:12 am
a 1/4 mouse, what?  ??? ???


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on September 28, 2008, 16:07:20 pm
a 1/4 mouse, what?  ??? ???

[url]http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,6750.msg100845.html#new[/url :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Project_X on September 29, 2008, 01:59:19 am
cool, are they fast or anything?What do they do in the 1/4 mile?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Tomi on November 19, 2008, 12:11:49 pm
What happend to the mouse motor pictures? Can they still be seen somewhere?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on November 29, 2008, 03:20:21 am
What happend to the mouse motor pictures? Can they still be seen somewhere?

I have now fixed the broken links 8)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: dangerous on December 05, 2008, 21:32:13 pm
WOW!
Thanks for the pics,
nice to finally see the heads.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: 1946vw on January 13, 2009, 06:31:22 am
My new mouse motor


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: 1946vw on January 13, 2009, 06:33:40 am
More


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Lee.C on January 13, 2009, 10:30:49 am
My new mouse motor

Come don't lleave us hanging we NEED some more info on this one  :o ;) :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Martin on January 13, 2009, 11:46:52 am
looks like twin over head cam, 16V, twin plug motor.

Very nice work...

Have been sketching up a simular item for my motor, although not a mouse motor more like a dirty big rat.


love some more info on it.




Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: WŁnderwolff on January 13, 2009, 13:06:03 pm
1946vw, I will not tell you that engine looks good, actually I think it is ugly.  ::)

But hell, does that monster look lovely or what :o :o


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: nicolas on January 13, 2009, 14:12:11 pm
a 1/4 mouse, what?  ??? ???

1/4 mouse with cheese, or in metric a royal mouse.  ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Zach Gomulka on January 13, 2009, 18:35:50 pm
Better 8 dowel that crank, at least ;)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Bewitched666 on January 15, 2009, 08:16:42 am
Will that engine fit? Looks pretty wide 8)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: folkevogn on January 17, 2009, 11:07:50 am
a 1/4 mouse, what?  ??? ???

1/4 mouse with cheese, or in metric a royal mouse.  ;D

hehe ;D good one Nicolas
reminds me of one of my top 5 best movies. Pulp Fiction 8) 8)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Frallan on January 24, 2009, 09:18:40 am
More

Whatever that is, please let us know more.
My guess is not 4 valves per cylinder but twin plug and 2 valves?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Roman on January 24, 2009, 16:24:54 pm
More

Whatever that is, please let us know more.
My guess is not 4 valves per cylinder but twin plug and 2 valves?


Hi Frallan,
It is an engine for a Comp Eliminator G/Dragster. One of his old engines is in a garage 100 m from me!
Top notch work Brian!

//Roman


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Chris Andrews - The Mailman on May 25, 2009, 20:47:43 pm
The Carrillo's in the dragster motor are only 5" long as I remember.

Should I remember this correctly, I believe that the Carrillo's in Eric Ballard's (ERCO) A/MC, B/MC, C/MC, C/MX & G/Dragster 1680 cc engines (88 EMPI Slipper Skirt pistons, 69 mm VW counter weighed crank) were 4.850". Yes it is a VERY tight fit, but it can be done with Slipper Skirt  pistons.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: ugly duckling on May 31, 2009, 22:35:58 pm
oh postman qwit your yapin and build somthing for god sakes. times a ticken ::) ;). UD.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: viNce on June 11, 2009, 18:34:45 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaKYf0NOMS8  8)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: C.O.R. on June 18, 2009, 00:06:51 am
Chris, I must be missing something, so help me out please. What do you mean by "slipper skirt pistons are a very tight fit?" Are you talking about slipper skirts and the width of the assembled engine in relation to fitting into a bug body being "very tight?" The only factor I see here is if your running spacers on the the cylinders, but that'd be with a long stroke rod.

Do you mean to say "very tight" related to the skirt of the piston (barely) coming out of the engine case with those short rods? I'd agree that'd be a concern. With those shorty rods, you'd need to hand grind small windows in the case for the rod stroke, and then match grind (as in carefully have them machined) the cylinders to the case windows. Then you'd hand grind the slipper skirt themselves so they don't hit the case on the return stroke. Those short rods imact calculating your compression ratio, deck height, etc.

You are right on target with the rod lengths themselves, and the crankshaft/rod length ratios as other considerations.

And don't forget that the Modified Compact (A/MC, etc.) and Modified Eliminator (SS/CX) classes all used crankshafts varying in strokes from 78.2mm throught 82mm to meet the weight break rules. Each combo required their own special machine/grind to fit modifications depending ont he parts you assembled. Now, the dual carbs to engine compartment side is tight when you needed to adjust/synching them...

Anyway, our thoughts/input on the discussion....talk to you soon!

Aloha, Frank

Castagnetti Ohana Racing
Honolulu and Hilo


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: s-perf on July 08, 2009, 00:00:18 am
Thanks Vince for posting the video of my Buggy.

Inspirated by this post and by the great job of JPM, we decide to build a small engine also.

We race for the first time (with this engine) in France 3 weeks ago and then all this week end at the EBI 3.

Here is the combo :
AS41 case
66 mm welded berg crank
90 mm autocraft piston & cylinder kit (old from 90's i think).
stock welded heads with 42x37 mm titanium valves
Heads flows 190cfm intake / 150 cfm exhaust at full lift with good velocity
FK89 cam - 1,4 rockers
48 IDA with 40mm venturies
1-7/8 exhaust (too big i know :))
12,5 CR - running with VP racing fuel
No cooling, but alternator is on.

Actually the engine is making 167cv (DIN) HP (perhaps a little more with the changes we made this week end).

This engine is my street bug (you can see it on the video in the message before).

I have always build "big engine" from 2liters to 3liters and i am very surprised and glad of this small one.


This week end at the EBI 3 i ran 12,2s at the beginig and after some different jetting, venturies, exhaust, etc... combo, i finally ran :
20m : 1,60s
1/8 : 7,32s
1/4 : 11,68s
speed : 109 mph

The engine seems to be very strong as we made aroud 20 passes this week end, 9000rpm at each gear, 9200 at burn out.
No leaks, no cooling problems, rockers play have not move.

I think we have still many things to do as the combo is not perfect.
The exhaust is not good, the cam is too big, the I/E ratio is too high, the manifolds are too long, slicks are too big, etc...

So, if someone have ideas or advices, i am really open !!

Special thanks to Mike H. and Greg M. for the gearbox, Steeve, Ian Clark, Paul Shley, Keith S.  for the support and the advices this week end on the track  !! 
Thanks to Vincent (builder and conceptor of the Buggy), Phiphi (for the suspension tuning advices) and to my friend David that helps me a lot on this engine.



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: s-perf on July 08, 2009, 13:39:32 pm
Here is the engine :

(http://www.slideperformance.com/photos/P1000883.jpg)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Oliver Frey on July 08, 2009, 19:21:25 pm
Here is the engine :

(http://www.slideperformance.com/photos/P1000883.jpg)

Sweet look at how narrow that little bugger is.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: fish on July 15, 2009, 08:54:21 am
This topic is just insane, Congrats to all that have had success with the mighty mouse cant wait to put mine together 69 x 88 Empi Birals, should be good.
Anyway keep up the great work guys.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jesse Wens on July 18, 2009, 18:58:09 pm
1192cc
15.421@ebi
turbocharged though,still counts as a mighty mouse?
(http://blogsimages.skynet.be/images_v2/002/510/702/20090707/dyn002_original_602_494_pjpeg_2510702_e324f37b71b13105bacb2e47c2522925.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_rf_mGqIEMGM/SjphsirU1JI/AAAAAAAAAIw/z-jIs3G2W4M/s400/DSC00285%5B1%5D)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: mr horsepower on July 19, 2009, 15:51:48 pm

go jesse!!!!!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jesse Wens on July 19, 2009, 19:14:35 pm
thanx


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Torben Alstrup on July 20, 2009, 10:31:21 am
Yes the buggy ran very nice.
At some point sunday Johannes and I was sitting in the CSP tent grabbing a bite, when you went on the track. - Both of us stopped talking and eating, and listened to the burn out and run. And when it was over we both had a big smile on our faces. Nice engine.
T


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Bewitched666 on July 21, 2009, 15:01:17 pm
Damn what kinda turbosetup is that? ???


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Lee.C on July 21, 2009, 15:14:54 pm
1192cc
15.421@ebi
turbocharged though,still counts as a mighty mouse?
(http://blogsimages.skynet.be/images_v2/002/510/702/20090707/dyn002_original_602_494_pjpeg_2510702_e324f37b71b13105bacb2e47c2522925.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_rf_mGqIEMGM/SjphsirU1JI/AAAAAAAAAIw/z-jIs3G2W4M/s400/DSC00285%5B1%5D)

Cool little set up - we had a good race  ;)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jesse Wens on July 22, 2009, 11:50:01 am
Monkeyboy,That was the metalflake buggy no? Close call till the end, the best races. Maybe when your done finetuning the result will be the other way round.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Lee.C on July 22, 2009, 21:44:50 pm
Monkeyboy,That was the metalflake buggy no? Close call till the end, the best races. Maybe when your done finetuning the result will be the other way round.

Yep thats me and yes that was the FIRST tune and then driven to Belguim  ::) I have had a few problems since but I think I have them sorted now  ::)

Das Drag Day / SCC  ??? ;)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: rick m on August 03, 2009, 08:04:23 am
What journal size are you running on your destroked crank and what rod length?

Rick Mortensen


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: george4888 on August 06, 2009, 05:53:02 am
Hi, Everyone.   When I get my car set up for good take-offs from the starting line I will let you know the times.  I don't see anyone doing a legal SS/FS in the USA, except me.  There are rules which do not allow the use of any aftermarket heads and the 044 is an example of a head that is NOT made by VW/Audi and per the NHRA tech people, not allowed in this class. Also, if you only have a roll bar you have to use Stock seats,,,not race type seats and bumpers are also required. The rules for the 2009 SS/FS class are such that I am having lots of trouble getting my car and me down closer to the weight of 1800 pounds with my 1776 cc engine. Why the 1776 cc ?  Because , I have built more of them than any other size during my 30 years working on VW's, do know what to expect.   Looking over the past two years of posts in this forum, I see I am on track with many for my "small" engine.  But, I am only working with springs that allow up to 8,000 rpms,,,at this time, but if the times are not on the index or below it, I will go to stronger springs and pick up another 1,000 rpms. The bottom end is Berg wedge-mated crank and Pauter light weight rods.  I am using many light weight parts throughout the engine, such as Pauter's roller rocker arms and CE light weight cam straight cut gears.  The heads are FF and have been run in the '80's legal down into the 11's, so I just need to work out the suspension problems I have and see what happens to the HP getting to the track.  Thanks to all for the good information.  Building a car to run legally in NHRA or IHRA is not easy, due to the strict rules.   The index is 12.75 for SS/FS and in IHRA, running over 2,000 pounds weight, it is 13.25 for SS/CC.  We did this 10 years ago and ran .75 under the index at that time, so I am just trying to repeat history and have some fun.

George Karacostas, 4886


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Taylor on August 16, 2009, 22:28:02 pm
wanted:  I am looking for a set of nos 041s  they must have a VW logo and the full part number.   No mofoco of auto lina logos.   NHRA is particular ;D

e-mail me p/m me or call me at 562-884-2373  thanks  taylor


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: kingsburgphil on August 17, 2009, 07:03:57 am
Regarding Kris Klingamann's motors, I don't see any mention of the weight break used in AMC/BMC class comp. At the time we started at 13 lbs./ci and went to 19 lbs./ci. I bailed at 15 lbs., since my 1998cc was to heavy/slow to keep up. Kris and others used small efficient motors because they
had to respond to NHRA rules with winning combinations of parts and driver skills. Yes they leaned on the motors and trannys rather heavily, and they paid the price, as well as reaped the rewards. Nowadays, unless you're a class racer there's few reasons to run a motor at the ragged edge, unless you're a glutton for punishment. Kris and I only raced once, i was lucky. I dared not try my luck again. Kris ,if you read this, long time no see!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on August 27, 2009, 14:13:46 pm
Well I finally ran the 11 I've been chasng for a while with my 1776cc N/A street car. The interesting thing is having read most of this thread again that I would not consider it to be "thinking out of the box", particularly in terms of the motor. A fair bit more effort has gone into making the gearbox more efficient though.
Ian at WPS who built the motor would be the first to admit its just a development of the street motor he ran in his split, and not a race motor.
The parts in the motor are all readily available but they have just been selected and put together with care. The best and most exotic parts of the engine are certainly the heads, which are Jeff Denham 043's with Ti valves. But again they are street heads a sort of an entry level set for Jeff, as he is certainly capable of something much better.

The car is light for a street car, but not super light (1585 at the last count with my skiny ribs in it, it might be 1565 by now as I have lost some weight in the car since it was last weighed), as its all steel wings and has stock bulkheads and the like, but its stripped out inside with basically no interior except a head liner. Anything I've changed or added to the car I've allways tried to make it lighter, but not to the point of compromising drivability or reliability.

The car was driven to the track (2 1/4 hours) on a hot day with no trouble. It ran 3 11's with a best of 11.915 at 111.41mph but this was with a stinger no fan belt and slicks. The journey home took 3 hours due to a traffic jam and the car sat in stop start traffic on tick over for 45 mins at 80 degrees C no problem.

I'm really pleased with the achivment, but I would not consider it thinking outside the box. Its more like good logic and enginering.

So the big qestion for me is, what can you achive if you do really go for it? It's been said earlier by John (JMR) that unless there are class rules to restrict cc / weight there is no major development on mass, to find out what can be achived today. That said there are people trying, just for trying sake, or just general self entertainment. The good news for all of us is that most of them in Europe and a few from over the pod contribute on here. Also I think things have got a lot easier due to the availability and choice of parts, and this has made us all a bit lazy. But all the time there are people like the Skinne Bros, Johannes at JPM, with there recent achivements, and many others, I think there will be constant improvement, as all these people are committed to making things better. Its just just the progress will be slower than it would be, if we were all racing to class rules, as they were back in the day in the US!

Peter



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Lee.C on August 27, 2009, 16:45:55 pm
WOW congratulation Pete - Thats  AWESOME - 3 11's and driven to and from the track - HARDCORE!

I also agree with alot of your points - it would be great to see a cc/weight class in VW racing, But its good to see there are still the few hardcore people doiin it just for the Kicks  ;) Why do you think I am building my 2180 roller crank mototr ;) :)

Well done dude  ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Stanley on September 03, 2009, 03:21:40 am
Thanks Vince for posting the video of my Buggy.

No cooling, but alternator is on.


The engine seems to be very strong as we made aroud 20 passes this week end, 9000rpm at each gear, 9200 at burn out.
No leaks, no cooling problems, rockers play have not move.




By no cooling problems do you mean no temp problems or no sign of heat damage?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on October 23, 2009, 14:34:22 pm
Hello guys,

I am happy and exited to tell you that a new, very aggressive," RAPTOR mouse" was born yesterday.

1795cc, mag case, 043 heads and ida 48 carbs.

228,3hp/7990rpm and 231Nm(166.9lbs)6200rpm corrected(Din).

Have a nice weekend.

Johannes Persson



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: speedwell on October 23, 2009, 14:43:27 pm
any pictures ???.... ;)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on October 23, 2009, 15:17:18 pm
 ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: JS on October 23, 2009, 15:43:49 pm
Congratulations Johannes! Can you please tell us about the valve train parts used in the build?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: benssp on October 23, 2009, 15:54:44 pm
Hello guys,

I am happy and exited to tell you that a new, very aggressive," RAPTOR mouse" was born yesterday.

1795cc, mag case, 043 heads and ida 48 carbs.

228,3hp/7990rpm and 231Nm(166.9lbs)6200rpm corrected(Din).

Have a nice weekend.

Johannes Persson


8)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on October 23, 2009, 16:03:51 pm
JS,
Cam is jpm01005(10mm cam lift 271deg at 0.05" 105 lobe center), ceramic lifters, GB 160000psi pr, jpm 1.55:1 rockers two stud, ti valves, jpm alumec retainers, OTEVA75 valve springs and single grove 7deg keepers.

Alu push rods will soon be installed.

/Johannes


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Rasser on October 23, 2009, 16:23:34 pm
Dual valve springs?   if yes, do you then plan on using single springs when installing the alu pushrods?

Oh, and a big congrats on the impressive results!!!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: vwcab on October 23, 2009, 16:44:10 pm
Yes,impressive numbers  ;)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Zach Gomulka on October 23, 2009, 17:27:06 pm
What's the bore x stroke of that mouse?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on October 23, 2009, 17:45:47 pm
Zach,

The bore is 91mm and stroke is 69mm.

/Johannes


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Tom G. on October 23, 2009, 18:02:17 pm
Johannes you are crazy .. ;D ;D You should try to sign in the guiness book of records for highest VW aircooled HP numbers/liter.....


I am speakless...

And we are waiting for pictures and videos....


Nice weekend too...
Greetings from Germany
Tom


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on October 23, 2009, 18:11:58 pm
Rasser,

The valve springs are duals but has increased installed height, pressures at closed valve is 100lbs and about 250lbs at 15.5 mm.
The pressure is good for 9000rpm+.
/Johannes


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Rasser on October 23, 2009, 19:00:09 pm
Johannes: remember the type4 heads you did for Thomas from MIB?  He just had his 2366 engine on the dyno today, and guess what -  233nm/6200rpm    233hp/7400. almost similar numbers (except the ccm)  :D



Hello guys,

I am happy and exited to tell you that a new, very aggressive," RAPTOR mouse" was born yesterday.

1795cc, mag case, 043 heads and ida 48 carbs.

228,3hp/7990rpm and 231Nm(166.9lbs)6200rpm corrected(Din).

Have a nice weekend.

Johannes Persson




Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: JS on October 23, 2009, 21:18:33 pm
JS,
Cam is jpm01005(10mm cam lift 271deg at 0.05" 105 lobe center), ceramic lifters, GB 160000psi pr, jpm 1.55:1 rockers two stud, ti valves, jpm alumec retainers, OTEVA75 valve springs and single grove 7deg keepers.

Alu push rods will soon be installed.

/Johannes

Please post the dyno results after you change the pushrods. Very impressive work!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on October 24, 2009, 10:47:02 am
JS,

The engine is for a customer in England and is delivered.
The alu push rods was not done when we started the dyno tests but has been tested before with small performance improvements.

/Johannes


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: BeetleBug on October 24, 2009, 11:23:38 am
Congrats to the owner and to the builder.

I heard Mr Takanobu Ito is on his way over to Sweden, will he get there before Bernd Pischetsrieder :)



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on October 26, 2009, 15:17:18 pm
127hp per litre! Easy to say but just think about it for a while, how do you achieve such a result with a normally aspirated, 2 valve per cylinder, flat tappet pushrod engine which was designed back in the dark ages! Compare these figures to other normally aspirated flat 4 engines that run on super unleaded fuel and you can begin to understand the scale of this achievement. The only motors that run close to these figures that I can find are Johannesís old 1603 mouse motor and his 1915cc motor which was in his blue car.

We are undoubtedly all very lucky to have Johannes in the AC VW world moving the game on, and sharing his knowledge with us and developing products for us to use. But for me best of all is that he is a really nice guy, and is very humble and almost embarrassed by his achievements, and would certainly never boast about any of his work. But perhaps this is the way of people who really are right out there, and know exactly what they are doing.

The truth is, he really does operate at the ďnext levelĒ, and the proof, if there is any doubt, is right here on this thread.

The really interesting thing is that Iím sure this is not the end of the road for JPM and Johannes, as there will be more developments, and more figures which us mere mortals struggle to comprehend, itís just be a matter of time!

Hatís off, as itís another amazing result!

Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Lee.C on October 26, 2009, 15:31:47 pm
127hp per litre! Easy to say but just think about it for a while, how do you achieve such a result with a normally aspirated, 2 valve per cylinder, flat tappet pushrod engine which was designed back in the dark ages! Compare these figures to other normally aspirated flat 4 engines that run on super unleaded fuel and you can begin to understand the scale of this achievement. The only motors that run close to these figures that I can find are Johannesís old 1603 mouse motor and his 1915cc motor which was in his blue car.

We are undoubtedly all very lucky to have Johannes in the AC VW world moving the game on, and sharing his knowledge with us and developing products for us to use. But for me best of all is that he is a really nice guy, and is very humble and almost embarrassed by his achievements, and would certainly never boast about any of his work. But perhaps this is the way of people who really are right out there, and know exactly what they are doing.

The truth is, he really does operate at the ďnext levelĒ, and the proof, if there is any doubt, is right here on this thread.

The really interesting thing is that Iím sure this is not the end of the road for JPM and Johannes, as there will be more developments, and more figures which us mere mortals struggle to comprehend, itís just be a matter of time!

Hatís off, as itís another amazing result!

Peter


I know exactly what you mean dude - I have been thinking and re-reading this thread since the post from JPM, Its just AMAZING!!!!!!!  ;D




Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: 1946vw on October 28, 2009, 01:45:38 am
The best G/D  motor makes 275hp + or - and is a 120 cid or 2000cc. 137.5 hp per liter. My best made 220hp at 1680cc or 130hp per liter. Thanks Brian


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: BeetleBug on October 28, 2009, 17:17:05 pm
The best G/D  motor makes 275hp + or - and is a 120 cid or 2000cc. 137.5 hp per liter. My best made 220hp at 1680cc or 130hp per liter. Thanks Brian

I just loooove people that throw out A and not B.

Looking at the pictures you have posted earlier I would guess that your engines use overhead cams and twice the amount of valves?

 


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: 1946vw on October 28, 2009, 17:33:58 pm
69 x 88 steve tims heads 42 x 37.5 it was in Hot vws a few years ago. Brian


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: TexasTom on October 28, 2009, 19:27:28 pm
Johannes,

What was the static compression ratio on this motor?
Amazing results, Congratulations!

Tom


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on October 28, 2009, 20:23:01 pm
Tom,
The comp ratio is 12.8:1.Dynoed on pump gas with muffler.

Regards
Johannes


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: bang on October 28, 2009, 20:59:02 pm
why not build a mouse engine ms230 heads fit on?
but nice numbers


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Roman on October 28, 2009, 21:05:37 pm
I just loooove people that throw out A and not B.
Looking at the pictures you have posted earlier I would guess that your engines use overhead cams and twice the amount of valves?

Hi,
It is like comparing apples and oranges, but Brians 220 hp engine is not a OHC. The pictures were on his new engine, not the 220 hp one. I know some of the details of the 220 hp as I was offered to buy the old one a year ago. A lot of nice stuff like titanium rods, roller cam etc, in other words: A pure race engine.
The big difference is that JPM's engines makes about the same power/liter at lower rpm's with less extreme parts and on pump gas.

//Roman


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: BeetleBug on October 28, 2009, 21:14:49 pm
Thanks for filling in Roman.

I just loooove people that throw out A and not B.
Looking at the pictures you have posted earlier I would guess that your engines use overhead cams and twice the amount of valves?

Hi,
It is like comparing apples and oranges, but Brians 220 hp engine is not a OHC. The pictures were on his new engine, not the 220 hp one. I know some of the details of the 220 hp as I was offered to buy the old one a year ago. A lot of nice stuff like titanium rods, roller cam etc, in other words: A pure race engine.
The big difference is that JPM's engines makes about the same power/liter at lower rpm's with less extreme parts and on pump gas.

//Roman


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on October 28, 2009, 21:20:13 pm
Hello Bang,

The customer did only want to use VW castings.

My own 1915 producing 242hp/8600rpm has MS230, it will be updated with my new valve train and EFI for this season.

I have another "Mouse motor"(1735cc) going on for my self that will be designed for peak power at 10500rpm, it will also have my MS230.

Where do you guys put the cc limit for a "Mouse Motor"?

/Johannes


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: bang on October 28, 2009, 21:41:40 pm
ahh okay.

by the way. sent you a mail.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Lee.C on October 28, 2009, 21:56:03 pm
Hello Bang,

The customer did only want to use VW castings.

My own 1915 producing 242hp/8600rpm has MS230, it will be updated with my new valve train and EFI for this season.

I have another "Mouse motor"(1735cc) going on for my self that will be designed for peak power at 10500rpm, it will also have my MS230.

Where do you guys put the cc limit for a "Mouse Motor"?

/Johannes

Those are some serious numbers dude  ;D

And I would say "mouse motors"  would be Sub 2 ltr  (2000cc)

Its really funny when I start talking with my "watercooled" friends they are just in SHOCK when I start showing them this thread  :D :D :D

"what! all that power from an 1600, 8 valve!!!????" or  "and Naturally aspirated WTF!!!!"


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: A-C on October 29, 2009, 03:33:49 am


Where do you guys put the cc limit for a "Mouse Motor"?

/Johannes

Under the 2,5l is a mouse motor!!!  ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Trond Dahl on October 29, 2009, 09:18:22 am
You guys are talking about rat size engines, not mouse engines...
anything below 1776 is small enough to be a mouse :-D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Lee.C on October 29, 2009, 11:25:16 am
You guys are talking about rat size engines, not mouse engines...
anything below 1776 is small enough to be a mouse :-D

Yeah your probably right dude  ;)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: andy M. on October 29, 2009, 12:13:11 pm
anything with a stock stroke crank is a mouse

strokers are for strokers! ;)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: 1946vw on October 29, 2009, 16:50:39 pm
My 69 x 88 motor sounds alot like his "street motor" 12.7 to 1, .600 lift ,VW lifters, 48 idas, vw heads, 5.400 rods, mag case, and it makes 131 per liter. And it is 10 years old. Brian


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: fish on October 30, 2009, 03:30:34 am
127hp per litre! Easy to say but just think about it for a while, how do you achieve such a result with a normally aspirated, 2 valve per cylinder, flat tappet pushrod engine which was designed back in the dark ages! Compare these figures to other normally aspirated flat 4 engines that run on super unleaded fuel and you can begin to understand the scale of this achievement. The only motors that run close to these figures that I can find are Johannesís old 1603 mouse motor and his 1915cc motor which was in his blue car.

We are undoubtedly all very lucky to have Johannes in the AC VW world moving the game on, and sharing his knowledge with us and developing products for us to use. But for me best of all is that he is a really nice guy, and is very humble and almost embarrassed by his achievements, and would certainly never boast about any of his work. But perhaps this is the way of people who really are right out there, and know exactly what they are doing.

The truth is, he really does operate at the ďnext levelĒ, and the proof, if there is any doubt, is right here on this thread.

The really interesting thing is that Iím sure this is not the end of the road for JPM and Johannes, as there will be more developments, and more figures which us mere mortals struggle to comprehend, itís just be a matter of time!

Hatís off, as itís another amazing result!

Peter



x2 very nice words Peter, for a very deserving bloke..........Props, JP.



My 69 x 88 motor sounds alot like his "street motor" 12.7 to 1, .600 lift ,VW lifters, 48 idas, vw heads, 5.400 rods, mag case, and it makes 127 per liter. And it is 10 years old. Brian


Also some awesome #'s there Brian, well done, any special coating on the internals or tips you can share, cam, chamber design, etc?




Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: 1946vw on October 30, 2009, 05:03:58 am
The heads from Steve Tims made all the difference. 208 to 220 Brian


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on October 30, 2009, 13:16:50 pm
At what RPM do you see 220 hp Brian? Great achievement!

And Peter S, thanks for taking the chance on a dark horse like JPM! ...he delivers!
We Scandinavians know, but this spring the Outlaws will know too!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: 1946vw on October 31, 2009, 04:43:34 am
It starts making 200 at 7000 and goes up to 220 at 8400 and down to 200 at 9000. Thanks brian


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Speed-demon on October 31, 2009, 13:24:39 pm
Johannes: Could You please post some info on Your new Raptor cams? I would like to know:

- cam data
- which valve springs they are made for (or which are needed)
- which engine characteristics they are made for (incl engine size)
- pricing

BR

Jens Kristian, Norway


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: JS on October 31, 2009, 22:16:13 pm
PM for speed-demon.  ;)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: gareth jones on November 19, 2009, 09:06:24 am
I've been following this thread for some time now
and I am very impressed with what I have seen
Even before the thread started I ran a 1776 with K-roc 043 heads and an Engle 130
it made good power and was very driveable
but it wasn't in this league

anyway, I am now building a 1914 motor
not really a mouse I know, but definitely along those lines
I have weisco pistons, H-beam rods, very light flywheel, mag case with sleeved lifter bores etc
but I am unsure about which heads to use

so, who makes heads with the necessary flow figures, titanium valves, springs which are good for 9k and acceptable street cooling?  ???

I have always liked Steve Tim's work but even his signature series heads don't fit the bill
these look interesting: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=828811

any suggestions would be greatly appreciated


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: TexasTom on November 20, 2009, 21:47:21 pm
Gareth,

You're right, there are some amazing things and information in this thread!

What are your goals (horsepower & torque) and use for this engine? Will it be street driven? How much? Carburetion?

These questions should be asked/answered in order to lead you to the heads (and cam) for your engine.
I've had better luck with combinations knowing this beforehand; Bigger isn't always better.

Good luck with your project!
Tom


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: gareth jones on November 20, 2009, 22:08:27 pm
Hello Tom
thank you for your reply
I will be running 48 IDA carbs
and I will be driving the car on the street
but it most certainly won't be my daily driver
I would like to achieve 180 hp at 8000 rpm
whether or not that is a realistic aim remains to be seen
as regards the cam, I bought an FK46 for this motor about 6 months ago
however, a JPM raptor cam may well be a better option...


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Neil Davies on November 23, 2009, 16:38:47 pm
Gareth, you may want to search out Pete Shattock's 1776 spec - he's run 11.9's with that motor. I think theres more info on here about it!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: TexasTom on December 03, 2009, 00:18:34 am
Where do you guys put the cc limit for a "Mouse Motor"?

I'd say under 1800cc.
The smaller it is than that, the mousier ...  ;)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: RFbuilt on December 03, 2009, 04:52:23 am
so a 1914  is a rattier motor?   ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on December 08, 2009, 18:38:12 pm
Gareth, you may want to search out Pete Shattock's 1776 spec - he's run 11.9's with that motor. I think theres more info on here about it!

Gareth, I'm sure you could manage 180 at 8k my 1776cc made a best of 186hp at 7300. There is a full spec of the motor in the for sale section. I suspect Andy Marriot's engine spec is on here somewhere as well. He runs a 1914cc which must make a very similar amount if not a bit more. Both motors are similar in spec as are our cars and Andy has run a string of 12.0's, but I would bet on him seeing 11's next year.

As you will see I ran an FK87 which was a good cam for the combination, but does not have the modern thinking Johannes has put into his Raptor cams, and I would say there is a performance advantage with one of his cam's. Put it like this if I were keeping the motor I would buy a JPM cam, lifters springs and pushrods.

As others have said you need to consider your induction, head and cam combination first. If you could provide Johannes head flow details I'm sure he could recomend a cam package to make the most of them, but you need heads that flow well and have good air speed before you go anywhere.

Good luck with the project.

Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Udo on December 08, 2009, 19:36:30 pm
Gareth, you may want to search out Pete Shattock's 1776 spec - he's run 11.9's with that motor. I think theres more info on here about it!

Gareth, I'm sure you could manage 180 at 8k my 1776cc made a best of 186hp at 7300. There is a full spec of the motor in the for sale section. I suspect Andy Marriot's engine spec is on here somewhere as well. He runs a 1914cc which must make a very similar amount if not a bit more. Both motors are similar in spec as are our cars and Andy has run a string of 12.0's, but I would bet on him seeing 11's next year.

Hi Peter

what is the weight of the cars ?

Udo


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: andy M. on December 09, 2009, 11:34:18 am
Peters car is 1340lb ( or was, probably lighter now ) and mine was 1376lb, both without driver,

andy


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on December 09, 2009, 14:28:47 pm
Hi Udo,

My car at race weight is about 1500lbs with me in it. Andy's is a little heavier I think, (I think the exact weights are on the weight saving thread on here) but there is not much in it in terms of weight and power difference. Basically both cars are very similar all round.

I think both cars are a great compromise between race car and street car, or street car and race car depending on how you like to look at it. We have both driven as far as EBI in them and drive the cars to the track when we race over here. Both cars turn some respectable times for small engined N/A street cars on the track, and they are certainly plenty quick enough on the street!

Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Udo on December 09, 2009, 20:06:34 pm
That is very lightweight . My car has 1460 lbs without driver .
But with your weight the times are ok   :)

Udo


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: gareth jones on December 26, 2009, 09:43:26 am
Thanks for the advice Peter  ;) PM sent

Gareth, you may want to search out Pete Shattock's 1776 spec - he's run 11.9's with that motor. I think theres more info on here about it!

Gareth, I'm sure you could manage 180 at 8k my 1776cc made a best of 186hp at 7300. There is a full spec of the motor in the for sale section. I suspect Andy Marriot's engine spec is on here somewhere as well. He runs a 1914cc which must make a very similar amount if not a bit more. Both motors are similar in spec as are our cars and Andy has run a string of 12.0's, but I would bet on him seeing 11's next year.

As you will see I ran an FK87 which was a good cam for the combination, but does not have the modern thinking Johannes has put into his Raptor cams, and I would say there is a performance advantage with one of his cam's. Put it like this if I were keeping the motor I would buy a JPM cam, lifters springs and pushrods.

As others have said you need to consider your induction, head and cam combination first. If you could provide Johannes head flow details I'm sure he could recomend a cam package to make the most of them, but you need heads that flow well and have good air speed before you go anywhere.

Good luck with the project.

Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: TSAF on December 28, 2009, 09:36:40 am
I am left speechless with JP motorsport.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Simpsonshoe on December 30, 2009, 10:09:46 am
Thats the biggest crank pulley that i have ever seen ;D

Nice work though,keep us posted dude 8)
Is that the Berg Overachiever?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: bedjo78 on January 11, 2010, 12:12:45 pm
I have plan to built 64X90.5. the engine will be run on 1641CC clas.

64 crank from old bug crank
90.5A mahle
Eagle 5.352 rods
CB044 round port 40X35
Engle 120 with 1.25 rocker
weber IDF44 or 48
1-5/8 merged
comp 10:1

will my engine potential making power comparing with 69X87 with same configuration?







Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: dangerous on January 11, 2010, 20:26:12 pm
the 40 hp crank that has the 64mm stroke,
has wider rod journals by about 1mm than the 1300-1600 crank.
Same diameter, just your rod side clearance will be excesive.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: bedjo78 on January 12, 2010, 00:58:13 am
the 40 hp crank that has the 64mm stroke,
has wider rod journals by about 1mm than the 1300-1600 crank.
Same diameter, just your rod side clearance will be excesive.

Owhh....I did't notice that.  Is it posible to use 40HP Rods into my set up?

Thanks for that info's

Regards
Muz


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: RFbuilt on January 12, 2010, 01:10:19 am
since we're on the subject of mouse motors

and this thread is filled with tasty info, 

i was wondering ,  on an 85.5mm bore , whats the biggest intake valve that could be run "ideally" 
JPM's mouse motor is 86mm  , if im not forgetting , its running a 40x35.5 head , 

sounds interesting,

i wonder , on a 83mm bore ,  is the 40mm too big? maybe a 37mm intake is ok?

i have both my beetle's needing motor rebuild and both have planned motors already (rather mild compare to most )

this idea is on the drawing board, but it sure as heck makes me excited

83x74  (83mm 40hp big bore kit.. mod to run on as41 case and 040 head)  not sure what is needed to be done to it
            crank, the usual 74mm crank

puts it nicely at 1601cc   kinda like the porsche super90

, cam etc still having fun with it (aka thinking LOL)

myt be fun for a lil' autocross beetle



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jesse Wens on January 12, 2010, 12:58:56 pm
40 horse bigborekit has short cilinders for 64 mm crank so shims wil be required when using stroker crank.
The 64 mm crank is stronger than people say with the neceserey mods. The weak link is the crank at the 3rd cilinder. For short burst , no pronlmes but use the power for some time and add some heat.... bearing eaten away.

nothing that can't be done but you have to know how. I would tell you if I knew but this is all they told me.
I got this from kristof at steves vw shop.
seems that he has the secret and will do the work, but no kiss and tell.
jesse


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Baked Beetle on January 20, 2010, 00:40:59 am
Johannes,

I really would like to know how that stock crank spins that high? I know everything is balanced but......not even counterweighted?

Can you fill me in on your choice as opposed to a DPR or CB performance crank?
 :D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: RFbuilt on January 20, 2010, 16:18:45 pm
i think Johanes  mentioned way back

the reason for counterweight.. is to aleviate the weight thrown by the rod journal,rods,pistons, etc

the lighter those parts are, the more reasonably counter'd  the crank is

ofcourse  being counterweighted as a crank would always be better,
but im sure Johanes has matched every aspect of his motor, including weight of individual components to rpm relation..

his JE pistons are quite short as far as compression height goes,  and its well.. almost half the weight of cast pistons or even less

plus the overall width of the motor is narrower.. 

anyways... im also still learning alot from these guys.. so i hope sum1 could clarify my words if ever im misunderstanding anything as far as JPM and overall engine techniques hehehe

Ralf


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Baked Beetle on January 20, 2010, 19:17:10 pm
Very Good Points. all of them. I'm curious about the rpm limit of using a stock forged crank that has been balanced? Better than say a cheap $200 cast crank or maybe just a s good as a 4140 CB 69mm crank.

I'm in the process of building something like this but don't want to throw expensive parts at a semi-grenade motor  ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: RFbuilt on January 20, 2010, 21:13:05 pm
well i think its fine  ( i hope haha)

im doing 2 motors (still gather parts)

1679cc thickwall88s
69mm cb4140 crank
engle 110
kads

1800cc thickwall88s
74mm cb4140 crank
engle 120
kads


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Baked Beetle on January 22, 2010, 00:31:45 am
well after watching the dyno video again and again. I just cannot believe that crank holds up to 9k rpms, even with the light reciprocating parts........

I wish someone else could chime in  8)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on January 22, 2010, 09:30:31 am
I don't have the time to find the exact post or mail, but Johannes has shown me how the forces working on this crank a 9k is LESS than you will find in a normal 2332 setup @ I think it was 6 or 7k.
Light and small parts helps a lot, some choices were also done to keep the total down.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: RFbuilt on January 22, 2010, 11:06:06 am
its sumwer in the early pages of this thread,
johanes  noted the figures of weight.. 


from my understanding.. its like doing the "hammer" throw..

shorter hammer of the same weight (mouse motor JPM)
longer hammer of the same weight  (usual motors)

the shorter one will have less acting force on the thrower <-- crank   

vs the long one..

add the light parts (JE pistons of JPM)    i think its sumthing that is indeed possible and doable

just not viewed or seen thru the "common" eye  i guess..

or not tried cuz sum1 already said "meh  stroke that bish..  or  big bore it "  LOL


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Baked Beetle on January 22, 2010, 15:07:29 pm
Thanks JHU!

Yea your right RF, thats what I'm trying not to do. Not do the most 'common' thing.  As soon as one person says "that cranks limit is 5k rpm' everyone starts believing it even though it could essentially turn 7k all day long and the person never tested it at all. Damn internet sometimes is the cause for mis-information.  ::)

I've since found a set of JE 85.5 that weigh 335 versus the 418 grams of my oem KS pistons. that equates to 12 ounces less reciprocating weight just from the pistons. I'm thinking that is what Johannes pistons weigh in around.



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: RFbuilt on January 22, 2010, 17:49:50 pm
re these the geers one? (or sachette)  oh well one of th prostock guys LOL

JE 85.5 ?  very nice.. 


i made a post  in the cal look section and recieved ZERO feedback


asking about..  the givens like wiseco 94mm forgeds have gone down to sub 400$  mainly cuz some one had it done already and the fixtures and tooling and or cnc prog have been done at wiseco  and so they can keep making them at a lower price
(i know this is how it is fr another brand we specifically use for inline4's we order customs from) 

i wonder how many people would actually like.. or is it juz not sumthing worth a bean

aftermarket (wiseco or other makers like JE)  kind of 90.5mm  B and A   

thats lighter than the "off the shelf" products


that should sprout a sick lil 1776  haha
or a big rat 1904 
or a big farm rat 2007cc

still within the mouse family?  ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Clyde Berg on January 22, 2010, 18:52:00 pm
Here is a small motor thats really cool. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm7J-3lkrBo

Clyde


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Udo on January 22, 2010, 19:17:26 pm
Thanks JHU!

Yea your right RF, thats what I'm trying not to do. Not do the most 'common' thing.  As soon as one person says "that cranks limit is 5k rpm' everyone starts believing it even though it could essentially turn 7k all day long and the person never tested it at all. Damn internet sometimes is the cause for mis-information.  ::)

I've since found a set of JE 85.5 that weigh 335 versus the 418 grams of my oem KS pistons. that equates to 12 ounces less reciprocating weight just from the pistons. I'm thinking that is what Johannes pistons weigh in around.



When i started building engines in 1980 i did some 1600 cc engines for street use up to 130 hp and 7000 rpm . We had no problems with the original cranks . BUT , there were no conterweight cranks avaliable in Germany . We had some okrasa cranks which were too expensive for us ....
Today i would use a conterweighted 69 mm crank over 6000 rpm's, but an original with welded conterweights on , so you can be shure it does not bend too much.

Udo


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: RFbuilt on January 22, 2010, 20:00:04 pm
thats cool to know Udo..

btw do u stil have that old 88.5  or 89 piston set? LOL



clyde berg.. thats a nice smallie!!!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Udo on January 23, 2010, 08:21:02 am
thats cool to know Udo..

btw do u stil have that old 88.5  or 89 piston set? LOL



clyde berg.. thats a nice smallie!!!

I have advertised the parts and did not get them sold . so i built an engine with all parts i had , made some nice 311 heads for it and got an 78,4x88,5 engine together . I want to dynotest it the next weeks  :) I drove it on the street in our black 67 and was much fun ...

Udo


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: RFbuilt on January 23, 2010, 20:29:19 pm
pm me how much u would have sold them...


maybe u can remove them for me.. HAHAHA


i have a set of 88mm thickwalls.. i think having a set of 88.5s as extra is nice..  could use my barrels and bore n hone .5mm more  when needed


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Baked Beetle on January 30, 2010, 05:46:39 am
so whats the rpm limit on my new in 88' BERG CW crank....  8)

I love ebay. My karma came by to pay a visit tonight. POTL mahle pistons, CW crank, all bearings , rods and pressure plate........for cheap.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on February 03, 2010, 23:32:58 pm
Better late than never, but here is a video clip of the moment the Raptor mouse was born.
 
Enjoy!(assuming it works)

Peter

(http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo284/petershattock/th_RaptorMouseedit1.jpg) (http://s384.photobucket.com/albums/oo284/petershattock/?action=view&current=RaptorMouseedit1.flv)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on February 03, 2010, 23:42:03 pm
1795cc raptor mouse 1 minute and forty seconds old.

(http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo284/petershattock/th_RaptorMouseedit2.jpg) (http://s384.photobucket.com/albums/oo284/petershattock/?action=view&current=RaptorMouseedit2.flv)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: BeetleBug on February 04, 2010, 09:05:24 am
Ahh.. so refreshing to hear a mouse scream with fresh lungs. Thanks for posting!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Andrimot on February 04, 2010, 18:33:27 pm
the smile of the man "sound" better than the motor!! :)

amazing...

wish to hear on the car too.

Andreas


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Martin on February 04, 2010, 20:10:33 pm
how good does that sound! can't wait to hear it at the track


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: RFbuilt on February 06, 2010, 20:20:50 pm
ok im experiencing a lil brainfart
 :D



how do u get 1795cc ?  bore ? stroke?

hehe


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: dangerous on February 07, 2010, 07:16:39 am
Probably 91x69 (bored out 90.5 cylinders?)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: RFbuilt on February 07, 2010, 09:55:07 am
yeah thats the only value i got to reach the 1795cc number..

interesting.. would that be a JPM/JE custom piston?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on February 07, 2010, 20:58:14 pm
Yes it is 69mm x 91mm, the same trick JP used with the 1603, to make sure the barrels are round and straight and honed correctly.

Yes again, the pistons are JP's spec from JE.

I will try and post a dyno run as well but given it took me this long to post the engine run up, don't hold your breath!

Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: RFbuilt on February 07, 2010, 21:43:52 pm
thanks peter,

very interesting,

i guess now i should start saving some used 85.5 barrels, and if i find some 90.5s

never know when an 86 or 91 become handily available  ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Diederick/DVK on February 08, 2010, 15:42:50 pm
it can't be that the trick is in the pistons right? are those JE pistons that much lighter or something?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on February 08, 2010, 18:57:00 pm
I think you'll find its actually a large combination of things that makes the difference, with small improvements made in all areas that amount to something more significant when combined. That said the pistons are lighter than standard, but more importantly in combination with the barrel size shape and surface, ring package pin height, and the like it does produce a good performance advantage over a stock combination, both in terms of maintaining good cylinder pressure and reducing friction.

JP would be the best person to answer in detail, but this is the basics as I understand them.

Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: RFbuilt on February 08, 2010, 22:50:52 pm
i think ,  its juz like running standard 94s  vs 94mm wiseco's

the weight, and ring package alone should help a few ponies strut along..


thats 1 small factor.. in the whole "system" of an engine..


seeing JPM work hsi engines.. im sure theres like atleast 50dff factors working together to make the "system" scream...


i really wish there was demand for 90.5mm forged aftermarket pistons,   im sure one of the companies like wiseco or CP or JE wont mind opening up an OTS offering for them..

and we can always buy 90.5 barrels too!



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Udo on February 08, 2010, 23:13:04 pm
You can get 90,5 JE pistons that fit to the mahle cylinders ...
Udo


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: RFbuilt on February 09, 2010, 00:16:58 am
from who ? and how much are they Udo ?

btw  have a pm for you.. regarding old german racing... wondering if u can help me out hehe


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: 1946vw on February 09, 2010, 00:34:10 am
I have some 95 JEs in 95mm mahles For sale


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Udo on February 09, 2010, 07:28:41 am
from who ? and how much are they Udo ?

btw  have a pm for you.. regarding old german racing... wondering if u can help me out hehe

You can get it from every company that sells je pistons as a special order . I also orderd some specials like 95 , 103.1  ....

Udo


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: RFbuilt on February 10, 2010, 17:07:47 pm
while you're right Udo..

but tat costs  "custom" prices lol

wat i meant was.. if we had more demands.. the wiseco 94s are around 350-400$ now since they actually offer it OTS (off the shelf)

we should have some in 90.5s  that would be fun..

example, we use Arias pistons on our honda's for racing.. we order mostly custom stuffs, they told me we can get a custom set  , if we order 5  sets  and get it for the price of normal shelf pistons at 450$  , but then again.. i cannot afford 5 sets one time LOL


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Udo on February 10, 2010, 19:52:15 pm
The 90,5x82 mahles are light and do their work . I think normaly there is no need for pistons like that except you want an engine like Johannes did. You can get them if you want , that's the main thing

Udo


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: RFbuilt on February 10, 2010, 22:16:12 pm
yeah that does makes sense..

prolly xplains why we dont have  that option in "forged"  just custom orders

looks like the mahle's are more than up to the task


btw Udo  thanks for the info regarding the rennkafer bug.. hehehe  loved that bug!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on April 09, 2010, 08:14:52 am
Sorry it took so long again, but here is one of many dyno pulls made.

Peter

(http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo284/petershattock/th_MVI_0046.jpg) (http://s384.photobucket.com/albums/oo284/petershattock/?action=view&current=MVI_0046.flv)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Zach Gomulka on April 09, 2010, 16:01:07 pm
That sounds healthy!

You should post this clip in the turbo thread ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: benssp on April 10, 2010, 13:22:32 pm
Nice Feature on Pete Shattock's car in the new VolksWorld ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Martin on April 11, 2010, 09:19:17 am
Cracking feature, Motor sounds awesome!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: mymedusa on April 23, 2010, 18:32:43 pm
long time nothing new..so i will post the first startup of my mouse engine...a real tiny mouse ;)

36HP
1192cc
singleport
singlecarb(harley CV)
in the video 1/4-1/3 throttle max. because engine needs some brake in first.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHScA1WVBeA

and my daily driver mouse
1192cc 36hp with blower.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUuDKGd1mVE



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: speedwell on April 23, 2010, 21:06:12 pm
is it a pepco  ???


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: mymedusa on April 24, 2010, 07:52:11 am
no.
aisin + pci34 carb
up to 1 bar of boost. ::)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: speedwell on April 24, 2010, 08:42:30 am
is it possible to have closer pictures from the supercharger ???
i never seen before one like this , who made them ???

thx
fabs


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: mymedusa on April 24, 2010, 09:14:32 am
for sure, i will make some new during the days, here an older one:
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/8278/motor3n.jpg
the rest is bedder per pm because i don't want to spam this brilliant thread any more.
all build at my own but for sure in memory to old pepco just way more boost.
the other engine is also build as supercharged engine...carb is just for breakin time.
don't find a good pic so fast:
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/2076/80512876.jpg


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Frallan on April 27, 2010, 01:10:01 am
Mymedusa,

Congratulations, I do really like those installations. Well done!



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Ragtop on May 09, 2010, 10:21:22 am
Yesterday a friend here in Turbotown took his 1641 turbo engine to the dyno. 354 rwhp at 1.9 bars. Not too bad  :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: maX cal-look on May 10, 2010, 12:06:45 pm
for sure, i will make some new during the days, here an older one:
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/8278/motor3n.jpg
the rest is bedder per pm because i don't want to spam this brilliant thread any more.
all build at my own but for sure in memory to old pepco just way more boost.
the other engine is also build as supercharged engine...carb is just for breakin time.
don't find a good pic so fast:
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/2076/80512876.jpg

Realy nice motor, love that's Too !  ;)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: BeetleBug on May 10, 2010, 12:43:27 pm
Yesterday a friend here in Turbotown took his 1641 turbo engine to the dyno. 354 rwhp at 1.9 bars. Not too bad  :)

Not bad at all. More info please.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Ragtop on May 10, 2010, 13:48:02 pm
Yesterday a friend here in Turbotown took his 1641 turbo engine to the dyno. 354 rwhp at 1.9 bars. Not too bad  :)

Not bad at all. More info please.

Specen:
single relief case.
Orginal crank,8 dowels, not balanced
CB h-profil
Mahle forged 87mm pistons
Camshaft, well nothing exotic FK something...
Scat 1.4:1
Cromolypushrods
Original heads, welded and ported, BUT original valves 35/32,5
 
HX-35 turbo 56mm in
1600cc injectors
Double 984 pumps
E85
Autronic SM4


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: 1946vw on May 12, 2010, 05:26:41 am
New motor 60x95 238.78 so far, It will be on the dyno for days. Brian


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on May 12, 2010, 08:35:14 am
Brian,

I like the bore to stroke ratio! Nice to see you using a good quality thick wall stable cylinder too.

If your prepared to share the information, what is your peak torque figure and RPM and max power RPM?

Good luck with the HP hunt, but its a great result to date.

Will you be running this in your G dragster?

Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Crazy Mc.Stairs on May 12, 2010, 18:25:23 pm
Sorry it took so long again, but here is one of many dyno pulls made.

Peter

(http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo284/petershattock/th_MVI_0046.jpg) (http://s384.photobucket.com/albums/oo284/petershattock/?action=view&current=MVI_0046.flv)

Damn I love that sound! ;) It makes me thinking of my old little engine! ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Taylor on May 13, 2010, 02:42:46 am
What's with the spider humping your motor Brian?   :D ;D
Good power though. Taylor


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on May 14, 2010, 09:33:36 am
Well, I've had my first few drives in the car with the new motor, and I have to say it is amazingly smooth and very well behaved around town, with very good throttle response from low RPM, in fact it feels more like an EFI engine than a IDA motor. There is none of the small engine light parts issues which some people talk about either! All in all my initial impression is that its drives very well and street diving to date has been fantastic and needless to say itís just great to drive the car again.

The air temperature is still cold here and Iíve only been on short (15 minute) runs so far but all signs look good with oil temp at less than 80 degrees still! The heads certainly seam very cool if the temperature of the tin ware is anything to go by (I don't have cylinder temperature gauges).

I've driven to work today as itís a nice sunny day so I can enjoy a drive at lunchtime so there's not much chance of getting much work done today!

As for the performance it certainly feels very quick but to be honest the same could be said of the old engine after the 5-6 months off over the winter driving a diesel Polo. That said the low rpm pick up is significantly different, as you had to keep the old motor on the boil for it to fly but this one is raring to go right from low RPM.

I have a couple of weeks now before the first race of the year so I hope to get some good street miles in between now and then to check all is well over longer distances and generally get the hang of driving the car again. Needless to say there are a few other little jobs to attend to as there always is, which I hope to do over the next couple of weeks, if I can stop driving the car!

Its all to easy to forget that's what its all about, having fun and driving the car, and it certainly is fun, so perhaps those little jobs can wait!   

Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Zach Gomulka on May 14, 2010, 15:50:54 pm
There is none of the small engine light parts issues which some people talk about either!

Please elaborate...


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on May 14, 2010, 22:46:14 pm
Hi Zach,

I was meaning that I know a number of people earlier in this tread I think, suggested there may be problems with running light parts, particularly flywheels, in terms of drivability. Needless to say I'm sure this is true at some point. You just have to look at F1 cars trying to get out of the pit box, but I think the combination would need to be genuinely extreme if this new engine is anything to go by. I think by most peoples standards this engine would be considered, as fairly extreme by n/a VW street car standards, but in this combination in my car which is admitidly light (1500lbs when I'm in it) there is no problem at all (stock ratio first and second gear on a 4.25 rp). To be honest its ridiculously drivable.

I went for a longer drive today and temps wise it certainly looks good, but as I said in my last post its not too warm here!

But following my little lunchtime razz around I can definitely confirm one thing. Happiness is a hot VW!

Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: deanosvws on May 14, 2010, 23:38:57 pm
sunny day, fast bug, ida's, brms, can't imagine why you didnt get much work done!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Fasterbrit on May 15, 2010, 21:02:17 pm
Your new motor sounds fantastic Pete! I can't wait to see it race at Shakey in a couple of weeks. Congrats on a seriously cool project 8)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on May 17, 2010, 14:50:43 pm
Dean, your bang on! I had the Ida's ringing in my head all afternoon, and I don't mind the Erco's but you can't beat rolling on BRM's.

Thanks Matt although its Johannes we need to thank for the noise, I know I'm bound to be biased but I have to agree it does sound a bit good!

Mind you whilst we are doing a bit of back slapping I dont supose I'm the only one looking forward to seeing your car run in a couple of weeks with 600+hp!

Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Tom G. on May 23, 2010, 11:51:05 am
long time nothing new..so i will post the first startup of my mouse engine...a real tiny mouse ;)

36HP
1192cc
singleport
singlecarb(harley CV)
in the video 1/4-1/3 throttle max. because engine needs some brake in first.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHScA1WVBeA

and my daily driver mouse
1192cc 36hp with blower.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUuDKGd1mVE



So COOL ;D ;D the sounds of both engines is awesome!!! these little 36HP monsters!!!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: mymedusa on May 29, 2010, 17:18:24 pm
a bit more spam...more blown 36er..without fan because it need new bearings.(preA porsche 356)
(http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/4570/dsc0457o.jpg) (http://img695.imageshack.us/i/dsc0457o.jpg/)
(http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/2236/dsc0456o.jpg) (http://img69.imageshack.us/i/dsc0456o.jpg/)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbJr_zlifeM
its not really shown in the handy video, but the throttle response is pretty good.


@TomG
it is time that your tiny monster is ready ...come on.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on June 04, 2010, 14:07:21 pm
Well what a weekend! Iíve finally got to run the car down the track with the new motor. But first of all the drive to the track. Its just under 110 miles to the track from home and the drive there was all fine, and Iím not joking when I say the only temperature problems were getting the oil temperature up as driving at 4000rpm the max oil temp I got on the gauge was 80 degrees. Better still I turned up at the gate moments before Andy Marriott did in his hot 1914cc n/a street car so we drove into the Outlaw pits for the weekend in formation.

Given the gearbox in the car was designed to suit my old engine I was a little paranoid about breaking it, so I ran for the first day on MH street tires which netted me a best of 11.87 at just over 113mph which I was very pleased with as it beat my previous PB on slicks and all I did when I arrived was change the oil check the valve clearances, take the fan belt off and the deck lid so I could film what was going on of in the engine bay off the line. At the end of the day I ran one 1/8th mile pass with slicks as there was a big cross wind and there had been a few incidents earlier in the day, which netted me a promising looking 1/8th mile time to build on the following day.
Day 2 of racing I ran with the slicks and ran a number of 11.6Ö. second passes with a best of 11.60 again just over 113mph. thatís over 3 10ths of my best previous ET. I had a number of problems with the car, and my driving over the weekend, so Iíve got a list of things to do now before I race again in July.

The drive home again on the Sunday night was great, as it was a nice sunny evening and again the car was just running really sweet, and I got home in good time with no problems. For those of you who drive your cars to and from the track, youíll understand there is a great feeling pulling on to the drive at home and clicking the motor off having had a great weekend with the car and a bunch of mates, there really is nothing much better!

I have to say a big thanks to Johannes, as true to his word (as ever), the motor has been fine on the street and even better on the track. I just need to get my self and the car in order to really do it justice now! 

Peter.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: benssp on June 04, 2010, 14:29:07 pm
Well done Pete/Johannes, I'm sure there's a lot more in it plus it sounds awesome ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Fasterbrit on June 04, 2010, 17:31:33 pm
Second what Ben says! The car sounds absolutely amazing and is a credit to both of you! Pete's motor is the closest I have ever heard a VW motor sound like a sports bike! Simply aural sex ;)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: bob_8 on July 23, 2010, 02:54:55 am
I'm from Brazil, we are discussing about these engines, are sensational congratulations, here in Brazil has no engines of this type, usually only put crankshaft stroke and piston MAHLE great big (and heavy). the power drawn from these engines are really impressive'm crazy for vw bug especially by our dear aircooled.
aware of our forum and www.forumfuscabrasil.com.br www.fusca4ever.com.br

Sorry for my English, whom you write is the google translator: P

Take care everyone.
Adriano.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: andy M. on July 23, 2010, 19:19:33 pm
I see that Mr Shattock has just run a 11.33 @ 119mph at bug jam with his mouse motor, good work!!

andy


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Paul Bate on July 25, 2010, 22:16:51 pm
Hello Peter,

I got to say what an exceptional time by any standard for a naturally aspirated car!!

Regardless of taking into account that it's driven to the track and is 1798CC !

Superb job Peter and all others involved!

Paul


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Corally on July 26, 2010, 17:00:23 pm
Quote
For those of you who drive your cars to and from the track, youíll understand there is a great feeling pulling on to the drive at home and clicking the motor off having had a great weekend with the car and a bunch of mates, there really is nothing much better!

Feels great indeed! Disadvantage is that i'm usually deafend by the engine sound on such long drives  ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on July 28, 2010, 08:09:53 am
Well I've just had another great if slightly shorter than planned weekend of racing this last weekend to see if my tinkering over the last few weeks had resolved the problems I had with the clutch and suspension last time out.
Unfortunately it was clear after the 1st run that the clutch was still not up to the job, so it was only a matter of time before it gave out. Worse still it was also clear that I had not resolved my suspension problems either. Fortunately I had enough options at the track with the parts I'd taken to resolve the suspension issues, which gave me the chance to see what difference the new gearbox ratios had made, whilst I still had a clutch!

With sorted suspension and the new gearbox ratios the car ran 3 consecutive 11.3Ö. quarter miles with a best of 11.32 @116mph (not 119mph as stated earlier). 

Needless to say I was very happy with this, and once again have to say a massive thanks to all of those that have helped me, particularly Peter at Cogbox in this case (who didn't go to the Brit F1 GP to finish my gearbox so I could race this weekend), Ian and Lee for the help and advice at the track and of course Johannes, for a little 1795cc engine which defies belief! I had several people come up to me at the weekend and say they could not believe a flat four could make that sort of noise!

I left the track on Sat night once I knew the clutch was finished for racing but still drivable, and had a great drive home with next to no traffic and got home in record time, unlike the journey to the track in torrential rain and horrible traffic. I took a little de tour on the way home as there's a nice straight road with a few sets of traffic lights close to home, just so I could use up the last of the clutch centre plate, but as ever pulling up on the drive at home and clicking the motor off was a great feeling after a weekend of racing I wont forget for a while!
 
I took the motor out on Sunday and the centre plate was almost 2.5mm thinner than it was when I put it in there before the race, but I have a possible solution to try at the next race at the end of August, so fingers crossed it will work this time!

Lee has some film footage of a couple of the runs which I will try and post but as ever it will no doubt take me ages so don't hold your breath.

Tanks Andy and Paulfor the encouragement and Corally ear plugs are definitely the way forward!

Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: colin jardine on July 28, 2010, 10:59:18 am
Nice catching up with you again at Bug Jam Pete, impressive stuff coming from your car with the little motor.  Oh, and earplugs are an essential item on the street i reckon  :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: delroyb on August 19, 2010, 13:32:54 pm
Ok this may have been mentioned already but the best of the formula bee boys are squeezing up to 130-140 bypass from a 1300 single port and engines that can last a season putting out 110. And they have too keep a lot of vw parts


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: delroyb on August 19, 2010, 13:36:44 pm
Sorry that was supposed to be formula vee and bhp not bypass. Stupid predictive text


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on September 07, 2010, 23:35:12 pm
A brief update. My last visit to the track with the new motor did not exactly go to plan, as I was still struggling with clutch issues, but did run a couple of 11.50's (which amazingly feels slow now!), the best being a 50 flat, so there was no improvement on my previous speed or et. The clutch center plate let go on the 3rd pass on Saturday, but thanks to Ian WPS for an express road trip to Cogbox and Peter's help to make up a new center plate we made it back to the track with the bits to fix the car for Sunday.
Adele and I ran on the Sunday as the first pair after the rain in the morning, and I'm sure most of you know what happened next, but as the others have said the main thing was that Adele was OK.

My next and last outing this year is DDD8, which I'm hoping will be a lot less eventfull than the last race! I'm not going to drive the car there, but hopefully I can have my fun on the track and perhaps a quick razz on the roads around Bitburg.         

Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on September 22, 2010, 22:38:48 pm
Well this is the final instalment from me for a while. DDD8 was a great weekend and to be honest I don't think I've had such a good weekend before running at best 2/10ths of my et, and it took me right until the last run of the weekend to get that close. As has become the norm the clutch gave up on Sat afternoon, but thanks to Ian (WPS) we got the motor out, clutch sorted, and back in, just in time to catch the last of the DAS barbeque hospitality that evening. After chasing a good set up for a few runs, the car ran from 11.8 something to an 11.52 last run.

So the car ends the year with a best et of 11.315 at 116mph (no fan belt on slicks, with a muffler on super unleaded pump fuel) from around 25 passes and just over 1000 street miles. Needless to say 1000 miles is not much for a street car, but unfortunately my time for regular street miles is limited, due to other commitments. The only problems I have had, have been clutch related (one centre disc per meeting), but fingers crossed the last set up we tried for Sunday at DDD appears to be holding up well, so we may have found something which works  now. I hope to put some more street miles on the car now that the years racing is over for me, and just enjoy buzzing round some of the nice local country roads before the weather really turns for the worst.

Suffice to say its been a great year and the car has been fast and reliable on the street and track, its sat in traffic jams and not got hot, done 500-600 miles of motorway driving and knocked 6 tenths of a second of my previous PB, it even gave between 25 and 30mpg on the drives to the track, so it really has done everything I could have asked for, and all from 1795cc.

So that just leaves me to say thanks to all those who have helped me this year and in particular Ian at WPS, Peter at Cogbox, Dave Dinning, Lee Maynard, and of course Johannes at JPM for what has proved to be a ridiculously good little motor for the street and strip.

Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Pas on September 22, 2010, 23:29:04 pm
Excellent summary Peter, roll on 2011.

Long live the mouse motors !!!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: didi on September 23, 2010, 19:20:08 pm
peter, it was realy impressive to see you running at ddd8! your new small mouse motor sounds and run great.
cool that some members from the outlaw's are coming again to bitburg.

didi



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: speedwell on September 23, 2010, 19:38:23 pm
 ;)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: speedwell on September 23, 2010, 19:39:59 pm
 ;)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: speedwell on September 23, 2010, 19:41:39 pm
 ;)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: jamiep_jamiep on September 24, 2010, 13:29:30 pm
Awesome work as always Peter....


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Lee.C on September 26, 2010, 00:38:17 am
;)

Awesome car - glad I had a chance to have a quick chat with Pete and Ian on Saturday night (sorry if I was a little drunk!) Loving the tinware by the way pete  ;)



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on September 29, 2010, 13:35:01 pm
Thanks for the kind comments all, DDD8 was a great end to a great year of racing for me, I just have my fingers crossed the event will run again next year. I think there might be a few more Outlaw's there next year, but it does clash with an event the same weekend in the UK as a general rule, which is why we haven't attended in greater numbers over recent years. I think its fair to say this years event sparked a flame for a few of us though, as its a great hardcore VW event with like minded people from all over attending, and the quality of cars as well as the quantity is as good as I've seen in one place.

I know there are a few other small motors being built out there, so hopefully there will be more updates on this thread over the winter and next year, with others flying the flag for the mouse motor, and needless to say I'm sure those that are out there allready will be thinking about winter tinkering plans. Roll on the 2011 race season!

Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on October 14, 2010, 17:45:03 pm
Hello there,

Just a dyno pull of my 1915.
69mm Demello
JE pistons
5.4" rods
MS230 46x36 valves
11.2:1C/R
Raptor valvetrain
F1 throttle bodies
Motec M4 ecu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0o4Yt6ew1M

Will soon be updated with raised c/r, top shot injectors and new header.

/Johannes Persson






Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Zach Gomulka on October 14, 2010, 17:58:41 pm
Give us some numbers!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jim Ratto on October 14, 2010, 18:10:06 pm
Hello guys,

I am happy and exited to tell you that a new, very aggressive," RAPTOR mouse" was born yesterday.

1795cc, mag case, 043 heads and ida 48 carbs.

228,3hp/7990rpm and 231Nm(166.9lbs)6200rpm corrected(Din).

Have a nice weekend.

Johannes Persson



This is amazing and great news for keeping air cooled following interested and learning. Congratulations and thank you! :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jim Ratto on October 14, 2010, 18:11:15 pm
Peter congratulations on your motor, seems it is best of "both worlds" and the motor I dream about at night.



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: volkskris on October 14, 2010, 20:43:15 pm
Give us some numbers!
248 @ 8900rpm, found on the JPM dyno day thread ;)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Airspeed on October 14, 2010, 21:27:42 pm
9700 RPM!  :o Bloody h*ll !

What oiling mods have you done to keep the bearings ok at that rpm Johannes?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Zach Gomulka on October 14, 2010, 22:35:10 pm
Holy hell!! :o


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: BeetleBug on October 15, 2010, 07:34:02 am
That is what I call a proper wake up call!

Johannes, thank you for taking the time to share your ideas and thoughts with the rest of us.

Best rgs
BB


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on October 17, 2010, 20:25:47 pm
Hello,

This engine was built for at least 4 years ago as an R&D project.
It is designed to have peak power at 9000rpm and 14bar bmep, if I can hit this goals it will pump out 265hp or 138.4hp/lit.
Only small changes has been made since first build, it has mostly been sitting on my shelf but the plan is to race the engine for next season.

The pulls on the video is up to 9700rpm where the rew limiter kicks in, the power is 248hp at 8900rpm.
No special oiling mods are done, just ordinary full flow with 26mm pump and oil return into main gallery.

New header was tested today, 252hp at 9000rpm and keeps the power almost to 10000rpm.
There was also a 8hp increase at 7000rpm, I have only made the calibration of A/F maybe some improvements could be expected from calibration of the ignition curve which I will do the next days.

Next change will be "top shot" injectors, after that a custom made piston, which will raise the comp ratio to hopefully about 13:1.
I still have 13hp up to reach target, a 3-4% increase could be expected going from 11.2-13:1 in CR.

BTW I only use my std size OTEVA75 dual springs, valve lift is 16.3mm(0.641").

/Johannes



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on October 17, 2010, 23:14:18 pm
New header was tested today, 252hp at 9000rpm and keeps the power almost to 10000rpm.

Congratulations Johannes! Exhausts is a interesting topic, and four horses at that level is a great achievement!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Eddie DVK on October 18, 2010, 08:04:18 am
Hello,

This engine was built for at least 4 years ago as an R&D project.
It is designed to have peak power at 9000rpm and 14bar bmep, if I can hit this goals it will pump out 265hp or 138.4hp/lit.
Only small changes has been made since first build, it has mostly been sitting on my shelf but the plan is to race the engine for next season.

The pulls on the video is up to 9700rpm where the rew limiter kicks in, the power is 248hp at 8900rpm.
No special oiling mods are done, just ordinary full flow with 26mm pump and oil return into main gallery.

New header was tested today, 252hp at 9000rpm and keeps the power almost to 10000rpm.
There was also a 8hp increase at 7000rpm, I have only made the calibration of A/F maybe some improvements could be expected from calibration of the ignition curve which I will do the next days.

Next change will be "top shot" injectors, after that a custom made piston, which will raise the comp ratio to hopefully about 13:1.
I still have 13hp up to reach target, a 3-4% increase could be expected going from 11.2-13:1 in CR.

BTW I only use my std size OTEVA75 dual springs, valve lift is 16.3mm(0.641").

/Johannes



It is so cool to read these posts and those numbers are just mind blowing, 9700RPMs
Much respect Johannes.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Lee.C on October 18, 2010, 11:02:17 am
Hello,

This engine was built for at least 4 years ago as an R&D project.
It is designed to have peak power at 9000rpm and 14bar bmep, if I can hit this goals it will pump out 265hp or 138.4hp/lit.
Only small changes has been made since first build, it has mostly been sitting on my shelf but the plan is to race the engine for next season.

The pulls on the video is up to 9700rpm where the rew limiter kicks in, the power is 248hp at 8900rpm.
No special oiling mods are done, just ordinary full flow with 26mm pump and oil return into main gallery.

New header was tested today, 252hp at 9000rpm and keeps the power almost to 10000rpm.
There was also a 8hp increase at 7000rpm, I have only made the calibration of A/F maybe some improvements could be expected from calibration of the ignition curve which I will do the next days.

Next change will be "top shot" injectors, after that a custom made piston, which will raise the comp ratio to hopefully about 13:1.
I still have 13hp up to reach target, a 3-4% increase could be expected going from 11.2-13:1 in CR.

BTW I only use my std size OTEVA75 dual springs, valve lift is 16.3mm(0.641").

/Johannes



Seriously coool stuff  ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: JIMP on October 18, 2010, 14:18:58 pm
Hello Johannes

just a small question, in that video with those rpm you use the tappered aluminum pushrods or the "std" chromoly ones?

Thanks in advance

Dimitrios


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Shag55 on October 19, 2010, 21:36:12 pm
Bad a$$ man! what is the spring rate for those springs? Are they simaler to the CB 650s? If you don't mind how big is the cam on this new motor, @.050 and lift @ cam?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Carsten on October 20, 2010, 08:26:49 am
 ;D ;D ;D ;D  Great !


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on October 20, 2010, 13:08:51 pm
Peter congratulations on your motor, seems it is best of "both worlds" and the motor I dream about at night.



Thanks, although its Johannes we are thanking here. What you say is a good reminder actually, Iím sure itís a human nature thing, but Iíve a terrible habit of not realizing or being grateful for what Iíve got. But as you say it is the thing of dreams really. It was not long ago, that if Iíd been told the car could do what it has done this year, both on the street and the track, I would not have believed it!

Its interesting that after all these years of driving and racing the car, the 6 tenths faster that it ran this year relative to my previous years PB, is the biggest single leap the car has made. The engine is a little bigger, and in previous years I had purposely been making smaller steps to measure the improvement in a more measured way, rather than changing a load of things at once. None the less, I was definitely trying to go faster, and to have come this far, then to take of 6 tenths in one year, and if anything found it easier to drive on the street, is still amazing to me. The strange thing is I now know that it can be even better, but I suppose there will always be room for improvement.

I do have this horrible sinking feeling that my trips to Sweden over the last couple of years were the first of many, rather than the first and last. Iíve certainly found Johannesís enthusiasm for all things performance very infectious, regardless of his clear skill and ability, and in many respects itís a great relief to me that he lives miles away, as the distraction would be even worse than it already is!. Iíve enough trouble keeping the home / work / car balance in check with all the other local VW friends and racers I know as it is!

Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Shag55 on October 20, 2010, 16:30:29 pm
I've been wanting to build a small-ish motor for some time now to make big HP up high. A 74x94 with 5.325 Eagle rods and JE skeletor pistons and asset of really short barells I have. The heads are 44x35.5 with tai valves, 7deg tai keepers and PSI springs and tight chambers, deck not cut yet. The ports are simaler to Chung Woo design the exhausts are smaller but should net a good I/E ratio. Berg 1.45 rockers and DT pushrods. The cam is up in the air as of yet but one grind in mind has 278 deg@.050 and  .422 lift  its a vary aggressive profile. Header will be a 1 5/8 steped to 1 3/4 but length not yet determined asim not good with calculations. Plans were to get it to 8-10k and in the 240Hp range. Any suggestions for the cam would be appreciated Johnnes.
Shag


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Johannes Persson on October 20, 2010, 20:39:54 pm
Hello Shag,

The OTEVA75 springs I use in my 1915 has 150-160lbs installed pressure and 350-360lbs at over the nose.
The cam is one of my Raptors which has 280+ deg at 0.05" and about .430 lift.
All my Raptors are brand new profiles, no copies from V8 or others.
They have all been designed to suit the valvetrain of acvw, that is why it's possible to reduce the spring pressure.
I design the valve lift profile in a very advanced computer software and from that file created the lobe is cnc machined.
That means that I can design a custom grind for a special performance goal and combo like yours in very short lead time and a fair price.
Most cam grinders copies a "master lobe" when grinding cams, to make a new master lobe is very expensive.
I don't have to do that when dealing with cnc grinding.

Send me an  email and we can talk about it.

/Johannes


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Eddie DVK on October 23, 2010, 07:03:39 am
Hello Shag,

The OTEVA75 springs I use in my 1915 has 150-160lbs installed pressure and 350-360lbs at over the nose.
The cam is one of my Raptors which has 280+ deg at 0.05" and about .430 lift.
All my Raptors are brand new profiles, no copies from V8 or others.
They have all been designed to suit the valvetrain of acvw, that is why it's possible to reduce the spring pressure.
I design the valve lift profile in a very advanced computer software and from that file created the lobe is cnc machined.
That means that I can design a custom grind for a special performance goal and combo like yours in very short lead time and a fair price.
Most cam grinders copies a "master lobe" when grinding cams, to make a new master lobe is very expensive.
I don't have to do that when dealing with cnc grinding.

Send me an  email and we can talk about it.

/Johannes

Johannes, maybe a change you are going to make Type 4 cams in the future?

Kind Regards Edgar


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Arnoud on October 23, 2010, 10:03:29 am

And make a autobahnproof highperformance type4 head while you're at it ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: JIMP on October 25, 2010, 13:49:21 pm
Hello Edgar

send Johannes an e-mail, he does them anyway if he finds the blanks, he did for me recently a T4 turbo cam

Friendly

Dimitrios


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Harry/FDK on October 26, 2010, 19:13:40 pm

And make a autobahnproof highperformance type4 head while you're at it ;D

Hmm.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: SSRT on November 11, 2010, 19:48:27 pm
Hello,

This engine was built for at least 4 years ago as an R&D project.
It is designed to have peak power at 9000rpm and 14bar bmep, if I can hit this goals it will pump out 265hp or 138.4hp/lit.
Only small changes has been made since first build, it has mostly been sitting on my shelf but the plan is to race the engine for next season.

The pulls on the video is up to 9700rpm where the rew limiter kicks in, the power is 248hp at 8900rpm.
No special oiling mods are done, just ordinary full flow with 26mm pump and oil return into main gallery.

New header was tested today, 252hp at 9000rpm and keeps the power almost to 10000rpm.
There was also a 8hp increase at 7000rpm, I have only made the calibration of A/F maybe some improvements could be expected from calibration of the ignition curve which I will do the next days.

Next change will be "top shot" injectors, after that a custom made piston, which will raise the comp ratio to hopefully about 13:1.
I still have 13hp up to reach target, a 3-4% increase could be expected going from 11.2-13:1 in CR.

BTW I only use my std size OTEVA75 dual springs, valve lift is 16.3mm(0.641").

/Johannes




Really looking forward to see the result of these changes,- anyway very inpressive numbers as usual!!!
Good luck!

SS


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Udo on November 11, 2010, 20:03:27 pm
Looks like we have another mid 10 sec. car for next year  :)

Udo


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: mast on November 16, 2010, 17:36:59 pm
edit


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: vintagewagenwerks on November 26, 2010, 13:42:10 pm
The hearing of the number 9600rpm is unbelievable but i know that engines can do this,i feel very scary when my 2007cc engine runs over 5000rpm ,because the noise goes through your brain.Respect for driving at this rpm.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: reijo5 on November 27, 2010, 16:23:33 pm
Hello there,

Just a dyno pull of my 1915.
69mm Demello
JE pistons
5.4" rods
MS230 46x36 valves
11.2:1C/R
Raptor valvetrain
F1 throttle bodies
Motec M4 ecu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0o4Yt6ew1M

Will soon be updated with raised c/r, top shot injectors and new header.

/Johannes Persson



Wooo that sounds fantastic, great work



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Udo on November 29, 2010, 19:31:12 pm
The hearing of the number 9600rpm is unbelievable but i know that engines can do this,i feel very scary when my 2007cc engine runs over 5000rpm ,because the noise goes through your brain.Respect for driving at this rpm.

Don't worry about it . this is not a small , but 2,4cc at 9000 :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-r9sIim460

Udo


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: TSAF on December 21, 2010, 15:57:17 pm
One quick question

I am thinking of building a new stronger engine for my 1964 beetle FIA approved rally car (http://www.rallybugs.com/CSBeetle.htm). Currently the car has a 1300cc engine which is quite strong but not as strong as the one I am thinking of. I would like to create a replica of the Swedish 1200s like the ones on the attachment.  These are the Swedish VW 1200s, fitted with 1300 cc Okrasa (Oettinger) engines, Porsche 356 brake drums, plexi-glass windows, 84 liter petrol tanks. These cars were used in the 1964 Spa-Sofia-Liege Marathon race. I have bought the 356 brakes, bought the plexi-glass windows from a company in the UK (http://www.plastics4performance.com/), already bought a new ATL tank and much more, new bucket seats,. The point is to build an engine that will have an output close to 110-115bhp with max rpm 6500 and a gearbox that will keep the engine in the power all the time.

There is a circuit racer in Britain from the just campers team that is a 1300 with power output of 140bhp, but this engine will not be suitable for rallying.
All ideas are welcome



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Udo on December 21, 2010, 18:37:17 pm
I have a customer in greece that has built an 1300 engine for rally racing . He got the heads and cam from me and has dynoed strong 130 hp . I think it is a good result for an engine that makes power in all rpm ranges and has good torque . So i think it is no problem

Udo


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: 1946vw on December 22, 2010, 04:43:32 am
I have the first Dyno numbesr for the 1670cc 250hp and the FI is next.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: RFbuilt on December 22, 2010, 11:55:25 am
I have a customer in greece that has built an 1300 engine for rally racing . He got the heads and cam from me and has dynoed strong 130 hp . I think it is a good result for an engine that makes power in all rpm ranges and has good torque . So i think it is no problem

Udo

thats some very nice numbers  Udo..

and seeing it is rally use... that's some good longevity there


id bet its pure heaven to use on the street 


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: TSAF on December 22, 2010, 12:43:11 pm
I have a customer in greece that has built an 1300 engine for rally racing . He got the heads and cam from me and has dynoed strong 130 hp . I think it is a good result for an engine that makes power in all rpm ranges and has good torque . So i think it is no problem

Udo

Udo we are your customer in Greece (http://www.rallybugs.com/CSBeetle.htm). A friend of ours is using the heads you made and your cam on his race car. The car is a 1970 model and not a 1964 like the one I am thinking of. Originally with Udos set up the engine made 90bhp on the dyno. Andreas  though re-worked the chambers and changed the timing of the cam. After a lot of work, and a lot of trials the engine made a healthy 130bhp at 6850 rpm. Andreas also changed the combination of stroke and bore. The car has made 3 FIA races with very good results. This year a new gearbox will follow that will suit the engine a lot better.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Udo on December 22, 2010, 20:03:28 pm
Ok , looked like you came from italy ...

I know another story but it is ok

Udo


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: dangerous on December 22, 2010, 20:45:04 pm
I have the first Dyno numbesr for the 1670cc 250hp and the FI is next.


 :o

Is that the 4 cam version brian?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: cbigpwr on December 23, 2010, 18:46:41 pm
I have the first Dyno numbesr for the 1670cc 250hp and the FI is next.
Are you going to hit the track in 2011?

Anthony D&A Racing


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: 1946vw on December 24, 2010, 00:55:18 am
yes


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: cbigpwr on December 24, 2010, 05:59:17 am
Cool, can't wait to see it run.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on January 03, 2011, 16:22:51 pm
Better late than never, hopefully below you'll see a short clip of one of the 11.3's from Bugjam last year (thanks Frau) its not quite the best run, but you get the idea. For info the smoke off the line was clutch not tires, which gives you an idea why I had to change a centre disk at or after each of the 4 mettings I did this year.

Happy New Year All.

(http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo284/petershattock/th_bugjam2010008.jpg) (http://s384.photobucket.com/albums/oo284/petershattock/?action=view&current=bugjam2010008.mp4)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: benssp on January 03, 2011, 18:08:58 pm
I'm kind of missing that clutch smell which accompanied meal times at the track ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Bernard Newbury on January 03, 2011, 21:00:24 pm
I'm kind of missing that clutch smell which accompanied meal times at the track ;D
Or even missing meals while changing clutchs/pressure plates ;)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: H67bug on January 03, 2011, 21:16:35 pm
That looks/ sounds so crisp and straight!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Pas on January 03, 2011, 22:58:50 pm
I'm kind of missing that clutch smell which accompanied meal times at the track ;D
Or even missing meals while changing clutchs/pressure plates ;)

Sounds like someone needs their own BBQ chef  ;D

The car looks and sounds awesome Peter, roll on this years racing season ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: mrmut on June 08, 2011, 22:38:47 pm
Hello there,

Just a dyno pull of my 1915.
69mm Demello
JE pistons
5.4" rods
MS230 46x36 valves
11.2:1C/R
Raptor valvetrain
F1 throttle bodies
Motec M4 ecu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0o4Yt6ew1M

Will soon be updated with raised c/r, top shot injectors and new header.

/Johannes Persson






Does the input valve is close to the cylinder.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: RFbuilt on September 15, 2011, 15:40:36 pm
greetings everyone once again  ;)


looking at the masterppiece that mr. johannes has  designed
the mouse 1603cc motor,


ofcourse power is not even a question based on the results, it made tons of it :)
and driveability is ideal  too i suppose...


i have an odd question, hopefully udo or jpm, or any of our seasoned builders can clarify


with the aproach of the mouse 1603cc motor, lets say.. adjust the cam and compression to suit a circuit application
will the non counterweighted crank, using super light JE pistons be ok to use in sustained high rpm ?

i know drag use is alot different when ur turning into a mild curve into a long straight where u are atleast 5-10secs in full throttle above 6k rpm ,     would the non counterweighted fullybalanced crank and itnernals with JE pistons be ok?

or is it best to go with a cw 69 in this instance of application?

thanks guys


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Udo on September 15, 2011, 17:15:53 pm
I would go with an original conterweighted crank . But the more important thing is the ballancing, we did highspeed balancing ķp to 8000 rpm on all race engines during the last years . It makes the crank live longer and i think it does not flex as much as it does before . Up to 7000 an ogininal crank is ok

Udo


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: RFbuilt on September 15, 2011, 21:16:51 pm
Thanks udo ! Such an amazing source of knowledge you are :)

But to clarifiy "original counterweight" u mean welded like DPR?

Yes sir we balance all our internals on a schenk engine balance machine :)

Lastly u mention on an "original" crank when fully balanced it is ok to 7,000 rpm it doesnt suffer flex as much
Did u mean original non welded counterweight?
As u mentioned for counterweighted it is safe up to 8,000rpm

Thank you


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Udo on September 16, 2011, 05:59:48 am
All yes , this is what i found out . In the earlier days we used original non conterweight for our race engines up to 7000 with no problems.

Udo


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: RFbuilt on September 16, 2011, 09:58:47 am
thank you Udo!  i may have to try this :)  with an autocross/circuit project hehehe


thanks for sharing your valuable experience ! specially in circuit racing from before


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: speed7 on September 20, 2011, 02:19:24 am
I've been running a 1776cc street /strip engine for a couple of years now and it's still going very strong.
I use the car as a daily on a regular base and racing it in weekends.
It's a full steel 73 car and I'm running an ET of 14.5 @91 mph .(slicks and short 3/4)
Engine has an estimated 125 hp and is built with a CW crank 69 , std  rods , Cima Mahle 90.5 A kit and a Webcam dual lobe cam.
The heads are 041 with 40x35.5 ported by Steve' Heads and 48 IDa carbs.
The whole engine was planned as a streetable engine with good response at lower Rpms and still get good top performance.
I generally set the RPM limitor at 7600 rpm for racing .

I agree with Udo , that to make an engine "drehfreudig" and get high rpms easily is to give it a very good balancing .

Well ,hope to see you all (most of you ...) in Bitburg next WE .

Greetz - Marc


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: RFbuilt on September 20, 2011, 08:36:18 am
sounds like u have a nice super streetable 1776!  :)  full weight bug.. excellent   


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: johnbitch on October 13, 2011, 20:09:15 pm
Awesome thread. I love small engines.

Here is a short vid of my 12oocc, maybe one or two of you lke it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh03Wqh4AOM

cheers Jan


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: mr horsepower on October 13, 2011, 20:29:43 pm
you need shorter gears.
for the rest is sounds awsome

gr henri


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: johnbitch on October 14, 2011, 08:52:52 am
Thank you for that.

The video was taken with a stock german 12oocc transmission.

Next year I want to race the engine with a mexican 1600i tranny, which is, as far as i know, shorter than the above mentioned.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: andy198712 on May 04, 2012, 21:30:27 pm
i thought the 1200's all had really short boxes, mine does  ::) bit of a pain to drive above 50mph!

has anyone seen the 1200 power contest? winner was around 150bhp at the wheels


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school : Crank Lightening
Post by: dangerous on May 06, 2012, 00:43:08 am
Here are some photos of the jigs and crank for my friend Stanley's mouse motor:

(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n216/dangerous_05/Camera6thMay2012001.jpg)

(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n216/dangerous_05/Camera6thMay2012002.jpg)

(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n216/dangerous_05/Camera6thMay2012011.jpg)

(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n216/dangerous_05/Camera6thMay2012009.jpg)

(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n216/dangerous_05/Camera6thMay2012003.jpg)

(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n216/dangerous_05/Camera6thMay2012016.jpg)

(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n216/dangerous_05/Camera6thMay2012008.jpg)



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: dangerous on May 06, 2012, 00:46:06 am
(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n216/dangerous_05/Camera6thMay2012010.jpg)

(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n216/dangerous_05/Camera6thMay2012013.jpg)

(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n216/dangerous_05/Camera6thMay2012012.jpg)

(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n216/dangerous_05/Camera6thMay2012015.jpg)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Andrimot on May 19, 2012, 18:40:52 pm
Nice!

would it be more?

Andreas


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: dangerous on May 24, 2012, 20:53:37 pm
Nice!

would it be more?

Andreas

More?
Could I take off more? Yes. But this will do this time around.

(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n216/dangerous_05/Camera6thMay2012007.jpg)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: BeetleBug on May 25, 2012, 07:37:35 am
Thanks for sharing David!

A little mouse was dancing with the dyna packs last week:

WHP:

[attachment=1]

-BB-


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: richie on May 25, 2012, 08:09:49 am
Kalle,

Nice so it works then ;)

cheers richie 


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: mrmut on May 25, 2012, 18:58:18 pm
long time follow what makes Kalle this project was followed out much HP and Nm , but one interested that camshaft of Raptor and which turbo to achieve this ???


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Andrimot on June 02, 2012, 18:44:09 pm
Nice job!

But why on a turbo motor?

Andreas


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: mr horsepower on June 06, 2012, 19:29:33 pm
Hi loungers i hope this is the right topic to ask my question.
A few jears ago i got hold of a pair of solex 40 pt-4 carbs and intakes  they were verry worn out .
But i liked the way the were worked by hand some body had a hard time on them .
I think the came from a old autocross or rally engine i liked that just to own it
4 jears later a buddy of mine got hold of a set of hand worked old race heads
They have 40mm intake and 32 ex valve
he told me ill could use them to make and engine for display with it nice i thouged
when we looked at the heads and the intake i sayed the look the same as my old school carb/intake set
So i pulled the carbs out of the dust  and placed them on the heads
And then the amezing came .
The match the same as dna on peolpe!!! wauw!
I thouged thats cool ,
So my buddy says lets put then on a flowbench just for fun and the turned out to flow 160 hp!!
But i i consider them to far worn out to use
But i have an 1956 ragtop oval bug that needs a bigger engine and i like old school
And i gonna try to rebirth the old engine parts, But there are cracks in the heads and now i want to now can the be saved i hope so.
Can someone give me advice on that i don t want to use new parts only period time parts  and work to keep it originel and give the builder respect because for me its a part of history that i want to restore
Here are some pics

gr henri
  


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Fasterbrit on June 17, 2012, 08:38:03 am
You gotta love that crank jig setup... Very cool!   8)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Lee.C on July 08, 2012, 15:55:44 pm
You gotta love that crank jig setup... Very cool!   8)

I was thinking the very same thing dude :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Lids on August 20, 2012, 23:02:43 pm
The next challenge: http://www.saltflats.com/36_HP.html



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Frallan on August 23, 2012, 19:14:43 pm
1655cc and 255hp at 10.600 rpm....
http://ultimateaircooled.com/simplemachinesforum/index.php/topic,14319.0.html

Cool.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: peejke on November 09, 2012, 21:27:13 pm
I drive a hot 1776 engine for 4 years now in my '57 single cab, it uses 40IDF's, a counterweight gene berg crankshaft, autocraft rockers, gene berg camshaft,...CB 044 CNC round port heads,kennedy stage 1, csp phyton exhaust
The thing is...when we where putting it together I checkt the GB camshaft number, but forgot to write it down, I know I looked it up and it said, mildly wild, for streetuse,...
Anybody any idea witch berg camshaft it is??
I'm planning to put the engine in my bug so the engine can finaly be put to the test, cause the high reving nature of the engine is no good match with my heavy bus.
With the right gearbox it takes my bus under 18sec. Even with the tarp on.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: peejke on November 20, 2012, 15:50:22 pm
Its prob. a GB297 , same as engle W110.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: ida2332cc on January 28, 2013, 04:53:26 am
wow this thread is awesome. have been loving reading it. i personally love the mouse motors.
i built a 1835cc mouse motor about 12 years ago running a best of 13.01 at 98mph.
with a stock 1300 gearbox. i will be building it up again this time with a box with better gearing.
specs on mine were as21 case cleaned and de burred and all sharp edges raidiused.
69mm crank from 1300cc engine. I lightened and polished it. ( lot of ours) & not counterweighted
stock rods lightened and polished.
mahle 92mm piston and barrels. lighted and notched for valve clearence.
lightend vw flywheel then bottom end was balanced.
cam was a grind of my own spec which i wont give details on.(sorry)
heads were 044s 40mm inlet 35.5 exhaust, ported by myself i even ground off valve guides inside the ports.
40mm dells
comp was 12.2:1
and i was shifting at 7800rpm.
this small engine was alot of fun and it never broke in the 3 years i drove it and raced it.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: chopper476 on March 23, 2013, 21:17:59 pm
try and get this thread up and running again as its one of the best and most interesting threads ever! ian clarks 52 suited the theme of this thread very nicely and out of personal interest, does anyone have any specs of the later 1850cc motor it ran?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: andy198712 on April 06, 2013, 20:41:59 pm
i'm toying with building a 1200T after my navy training if that counts...?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: modnrod on April 07, 2013, 04:58:59 am
1200T sounds good.

After 15 yrs the Navy doesn't.......


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: andy198712 on April 09, 2013, 21:18:02 pm
1200T sounds good.

After 15 yrs the Navy doesn't.......


Lol

I'll put some links up to a couple 1200t builds later.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: mansell on April 10, 2013, 14:52:38 pm
Here's my "junkyard" 1776
put together using second hand parts over 3 years ago and still running strong now  ;)

No idea on HP or quarter mile times just good fun in my street bug  ;D

(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e323/ozzy67uk/th_07042013041_zps0bcc1721.jpg) (http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e323/ozzy67uk/07042013041_zps0bcc1721.mp4)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: chopper476 on April 10, 2013, 19:55:47 pm
Here's my "junkyard" 1776
put together using second hand parts over 3 years ago and still running strong now  ;)

No idea on HP or quarter mile times just good fun in my street bug  ;D

(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e323/ozzy67uk/th_07042013041_zps0bcc1721.jpg) (http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e323/ozzy67uk/07042013041_zps0bcc1721.mp4)

thats sounds/looks awesome! whats the specs on it?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: andy198712 on April 10, 2013, 20:00:51 pm
1200T sounds good.

After 15 yrs the Navy doesn't.......


Lol

I'll put some links up to a couple 1200t builds later.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Z2zISQYevjg

The boost pipe is the hot air feed pipe and uses the stock muffler.... super sleeper!

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=138482

this one uses a small turbo and a large turbo.... Maaad!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on April 10, 2013, 23:36:06 pm
After a much longer delay than planned, the mouse is out of the house!

This year it has new double wishbone rear suspension and 6 speed sequential gearbox with the tried and tested little JPM screamer out back.

There is plenty to do to get everything working properly, and I need to learn how to drive the car again as you will see from the video below (if it works).

ps hope you like Neil Diamond! If not go easy on the volume..........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yona3vCyGQI&feature=youtu.be

Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: modnrod on April 11, 2013, 11:38:06 am
WOW!
That thing sounds crisper than some of the bikes I hear at the track.
 :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jesus on April 11, 2013, 15:28:56 pm
Still giving me goosebumps, such a great sound!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: mymedusa on April 11, 2013, 16:01:42 pm
@peter: tell us more about the gearbox ;)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Zach Gomulka on April 11, 2013, 16:06:25 pm
Still giving me goosebumps, such a great sound!

Sweet Caroline?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Lee.C on April 11, 2013, 17:19:39 pm
After a much longer delay than planned, the mouse is out of the house!

This year it has new double wishbone rear suspension and 6 speed sequential gearbox with the tried and tested little JPM screamer out back.

There is plenty to do to get everything working properly, and I need to learn how to drive the car again as you will see from the video below (if it works).

ps hope you like Neil Diamond! If not go easy on the volume..........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yona3vCyGQI&feature=youtu.be

Peter

VERY COOL  :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: modnrod on April 12, 2013, 00:46:20 am
Still giving me goosebumps, such a great sound!

Sweet Caroline?

Hehehehehee! :D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on April 12, 2013, 08:23:35 am
@peter: tell us more about the gearbox ;)

Hi Mymedusa,

Its a Hewland JFR 6 speed sequential shift gearbox with straight cut gears and dog engagement. Its a smaller and cheaper version of their well known FTR box. They get used in formula 3 cars and some single make formula cars like Formula BMW, Chevron also use them in their new car single make racing series.

Its a good fit in a beetle with little modification to the car required (just remake the front mount) and make a bellhousing (modify an existing one). The difficult bit is the clutch as the standard arm for the release bearing does not fit if you want to keep the motor in the standard location which is what I've done. This means the gearbox sits slightly further forward and lower in the car than normal which helps improve the weight distribution a little. My car is 62% rear and 38% front currently but my ultimate aim it to get it to 60 / 40 if possible.

I have some pictures which I will try and post up.

Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: mymedusa on April 12, 2013, 08:44:10 am
very interesting and just 36kg like stock. nice. would like to see pics and how you managed it.
very nice. thanks for the review.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on April 12, 2013, 13:48:09 pm
Hopefully this will work if it does their should be a picture of the box below.[attachment=1]


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on April 12, 2013, 15:10:26 pm
Not a great picture but you can just about make out the nose cone mount on the torsion housing and there is a mid mount not shown much like the usual mid mount you see on a hypo type 1 box.

Peter
[attachment=1]


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Lee.C on April 12, 2013, 17:56:22 pm
seriously seriously COOL - Can we get a few more of the rearend set-up PLEASE  ;) :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: benssp on April 12, 2013, 18:40:35 pm
Very impressive Peter, you've really raised the bar this time!

Must way a bit! ;-)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Lee.C on April 12, 2013, 19:21:19 pm
Peter..... I think car needs it own thread on here!!!! :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: WPS on April 12, 2013, 20:07:35 pm
Very impressive Peter, you've really raised the bar this time!

Must way a bit! ;-)
Much to Pete's great joy when corner weighing the car whilst setting the geometry etc it is actually lighter than before.....imagine his little face!! ;D And there's some 'nasty steel bolts' in there that will definately get Ti'ed when the time allows....along with the rear springs when we're happy with the poundage.....it seems to need less spring than a ladder bar car.....but it's early days yet.....lots more to learn....

Ian


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: dannyboy on April 12, 2013, 23:16:14 pm
proper cool setup was great to see a different approach to the rear end and it looks like its going to work very well  8) 8) 8)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jesus on April 13, 2013, 19:05:26 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXRw5MPhPY8&feature=youtu.be


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: leec on April 13, 2013, 20:45:40 pm
Great videos as always Alex


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Torben Alstrup on April 13, 2013, 22:09:24 pm
Hello. Last I looked, Hewland couldīnt handle a powerfull drag engine/drag start. - That has obviusly changed. Very interesting.

T


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jesus on April 13, 2013, 23:42:11 pm
from my limited understanding it cant take high torque so small cc engines work well. Pete is the man with the info though.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on April 14, 2013, 21:43:47 pm
Hello. Last I looked, Hewland couldn't handle a powerfull drag engine/drag start. - That has obviously changed. Very interesting.

T

Hi Torben,

The Hewland boxes Mark 9 and earlier are only good for around 150ft lb torque, but this one is apparently good for around 240ft lb subject to R&P. As Alex suggested it would not be much use for the big guns on here but for me I hope its going to be a good set up. The plan is that it would give me a bit of performance advantage in terms of the shift time and having the motor operating in a better rev range (more area under the curve) for more of the run.

Time will literally tell if that proves to be the case or not.....

Peter   


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: BUGULA on May 20, 2013, 19:09:36 pm
I built a 1641 with a VZ15 cam, 10:1 comp, home ported stock size valve heads, 40mm Dells and a c/w crank.  It went 14.79 with 6" slicks and a stock 3.88 trans in a '71 standard. Open stinger and fan belt on. The lite flywheel made it really hard to launch with the slicks.

My next small combo will be thick wall 88's (I have an old set from a gasser) with a 69 or 74 crank and a webcam 86A. Maybe, somekind of 40x35 store bought heads.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Old Guy on June 12, 2013, 21:27:05 pm
Hi Peter,

It sounds great.  I am assuming that with the dog-box you are not using the clutch to upshift.  If that's the case what are you using to kill the engine temporarily?  The shifts sound too quick to just be "bliping" the throttle while you yank it into gear.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: whirligig on June 12, 2013, 21:46:38 pm
well our bits 1679(and I mean bitsa)whent 14.9 lifting off with the new gearbox ,lower 3rd and 4th,so looking forward to the gti meet at shakey ,dont know if it will take warmed slicks though!!!!!!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: 67nos48ida on June 16, 2013, 07:54:04 am
I was active in the Cal-Look seen in the mid to late 70ty's. At that time had a 1750 too. lots of head work, and with a FK89. Transmission somewhat total different that is where most of my money went. Lets just say on the freeway, in the slow lane I would be doing 45 miles an hour. We wont talk about RPM's either But also I ran a little additive to help me down the 1/4 and  behind Nabisco's. My car was 19967 Black VW (old school) and hung out with DKK which I was a member of. But to this day I will still build another 1750.(almost the same thing I had as I had back in the day) Track time at OCIR without help12.90, and with help12.10. The unit that I was using was installed my Miller Brother's.

****I am trying to get in touch with Bill S. from DKK, since I don't live in California any longer.*****
       Phone or cell? email address?

Thank you.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Neil Davies on June 16, 2013, 09:01:40 am
Welcome to the Lounge! There are lots of Deeks on here, including Schwimmer, so if you post in the main Cal Look section you'll probably get a response pretty quickly - I don't know how often he checks the Pure Racing section!
Neil


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on June 16, 2013, 21:39:38 pm
Hi Peter,

It sounds great.  I am assuming that with the dog-box you are not using the clutch to upshift.  If that's the case what are you using to kill the engine temporarily?  The shifts sound too quick to just be "bliping" the throttle while you yank it into gear.

As you suggest no clutch to shift up, or down actually just a blip on the way down to release the gear. I was lifting slightly originally on the way up the box, but to be honest my brain did not cope particularly well with the coordination and I kept making a mess of it, so I ended up keeping my foot in and just giving the lever a good tug. It shifted as you can hear on the clip from Alex. I spoke to Hewland about the possibility of this beforehand and have since and they suggested as long as the gear releases and you are quick then you will be OK. I got the impression this was particularly so in my case as my car is not heavy and has relatively little torque or horsepower, relative to what many modern Hewland boxes are designed for.

I'll have the box apart at the end of the year assuming it stays in one bit till then and see how it looks, but as the upshifts sound crisp and the gears release easily and there are no nasty engagement noises, fingers crossed it will be OK.

I'm going to MOT the car tomorrow and assuming it passes I can start getting some street miles on it, so hopefully I can get the hang of driving it before EBI in a couple of weeks.

Peter   


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: benlawrence on June 16, 2013, 22:05:04 pm
Peter, thats such an incredible car, i remember years back when you bought the engine from ian how well it went, youve come a long way.. differently, absolutely incredible. :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on June 17, 2013, 14:02:49 pm
Peter, thats such an incredible car, i remember years back when you bought the engine from ian how well it went, youve come a long way.. differently, absolutely incredible. :)

Hi Ben,

Thanks to a lot of help from Ian (WPS) and Peter (Cogbox) for the best part of 10 years the car came a long way with us collectively making small incremental improvements which eventually resulted an the car running regular high 11's street driven and reliable as you like. I can say there is a lot to be said for staying with a combination and developing it! I learnt a lot, and had a great fun along the way.

Things have moved on a bit with the car in general, but Peter and Ian have continued to help and be involved along with many other friends I've made along the way.

The car passed its MOT today so had my first drive on the road since New Years Day 2011. I know I've said this before, but my good it feels fast on the road when you have been used to a diesel polo for 2 and a bit years!

I'm slightly embarrassed to admit it, but I've been driving around this morning just trying to find an excuse to change gear! The acceleration and noise and generally feeling is just fantastic! A hot VW on the street really is such great fun.......

The good news the back of the car feels really planted and a big improvement over the way it felt previously on the road. That said I've not been going too quickly as yet, so its still a bit early to tell but it certainly feels promising.

One other interesting thing. I'm currently running the car without an external oil cooler or the standard one on the block and it still took at least 20 minutes of driving to get the oil temperature over 80 degrees which was a big surprise. I have the external cooler pre fitted in a new location due to the suspension mods and just need to make up some new oil lines but I knew my initial journeys would be just a few short local runs I didn't bother thinking I could just keep an eye on the oil temp. As it turns out I could go far further than I thought, but to be fair it was a regular traffic low speed so that does go some way to explaining it. That and the fact even thought its nearly the longest day of the year here in the UK it was only about 15 degrees!

I've a bunch of must do jobs before EBI, and a few which might have to wait as I'm leaving here a week this Thursday which means I only have two nights in the garage between now and then. I had hoped to drive the car there, but its looking less likely now, I'll see how I get on with the must do jobs.

Peter       


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Lee.C on June 17, 2013, 18:00:45 pm
I can't wait to check it out in more detail dude - That is one amazing car/engine/gearbox  ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: richie on June 17, 2013, 19:52:34 pm


I've a bunch of must do jobs before EBI, and a few which might have to wait as I'm leaving here a week this Thursday

Peter       


You could build a complete car in that time ;D  Now stop messing around on the internet and into the garage ;)



cheers Richie


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: spanners on June 29, 2013, 15:29:53 pm
Nice work Peter, very clever rear wishbone lay out adapted to the exsisting, that maywell  be legal for circuit racing, ;) all it says in my regs is,,  ' the original pickup points must be retained',  well mine are in the tool box, :D just in case i get pulled.  Beetle drivers get an easy ride,,
untill you start winning... ::) then the bichin starts..love the trans' choice as well,  i could use a 6 speed, something like that alone would be worth 1/2 a second a mile on the circuits. well done sir..


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: slowlearner on June 30, 2013, 05:32:31 am
First time poster...

I remember coming across this thread and Johannes 1603 a few years back and being transfixed by the idea alone. Of course the engine itself is more amazing. I've got some 'out of the box' plans for a mini-mouse motor of sorts. I swapped my subaru powered dunebuggy for this oval last year...

(http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk127/stpeterscia/1956%20Oval%20window%20beetle/IMAG09791.jpg) (http://s279.photobucket.com/user/stpeterscia/media/1956%20Oval%20window%20beetle/IMAG09791.jpg.html)

Nice original paint (mostly) car. Came with a Judsoned 40hp. Cool setup except, it wouldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding and I am really beginning to miss autokhanas I used to do. I live in Australia. It is a great place to find rust free cars, but an awful place to get modified cars approved. I was up for building a blown 1600 for the car when it was made clear to me that swapping to front discs would involve thousands of dollars of brake testing and certificates. Dumb, but they're the facts. We don't have the dollars or room for tow cars or trailers. So, I need to keep registration and stay within capacity limits. Which means a supercharged 1300. Still figuring the details out, but I'll be taking plenty of cues from this thread. Low budget, thinking outside the box, etc. ;)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: modnrod on June 30, 2013, 09:34:39 am
Morning Mr Slow!  ;D

I too live in our great red land, in a state that also has a disease called "Tech Inspector Apoplexy". I have had a 1641 with Solex and modded stock exhaust running mid-15s, lots of others here have run mid-14s all day with a stock-looking centre carb set-up (hide them under a factory air cleaner assembly), and I have heard of a guy in the US, who is my undoubted hero even though I don't know his name, who has achieved low-13s out of a 1584 with single Solex!  :o
Now even though that's 2 seconds slower than Johannes twin-IDA'd motorbike motor, it won't even cause a second glance at a roadside inspection by one of our red dust covered finest...........

Great ride by the way! Cool as.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: slowlearner on June 30, 2013, 11:04:23 am
Hey modnrod, yeah I've heard about WA from guys building buggies.  :(

This circled word on my tech inspection sheet opens up a few legal options others don't have...

(http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk127/stpeterscia/1956%20Oval%20window%20beetle/techinspection_zpsfbb9ac45.jpg) (http://s279.photobucket.com/user/stpeterscia/media/1956%20Oval%20window%20beetle/techinspection_zpsfbb9ac45.jpg.html)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: modnrod on June 30, 2013, 11:07:47 am
Hehehehe!
It's all good man!  ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on July 07, 2013, 09:30:48 am
Well after what seamed to be a long break in the calendar before Ebi, it came and went in a flash.
I had a list of jobs to do after UKDD, which just about got done in time, but I only just got the car MOT'd before leaving for EBI. So with basically no street miles I decided not to drive the car to the track, which was a bit of a disappointment as I had hoped to drive.
There was no running on Friday due to the track not being safe / dry following a lot of rain the day before but it was good to have a look round the pits and catch up with people.
The track opened on Saturday and stayed that way for the rest of the weekend, but was single lane only and 1/8th mile initially on Sat again for safety reasons.
It was a shame there were no side by side passes, for the crowd, but I don't think they were too disappointed judging by the number of people watching.
I ran the first run with clutched gear changes just to get back into the swing of it and all felt good then shifted without the clutch for the rest of the weekend. I'm getting the hang of the shifting now and the good news is both the suspension and gearbox have been reliable to date.
Unfortunately the oil leak issue I thought I had resolved was still a problem but the plan B parts I had with me fixed it. That said it turns out that in fixing one issue I'd made another which resulted in a temporary fix at the track which needs a proper fix now the car is home again.
Nothing spectacular to report in terms of the times but I was pleased to get into the 11's (11.89)on the street tires on a road based track.
Hopefully I can now get some street miles on the car and get back to driving to the track. That said next race is Bugjam which is only in a few weeks, so I better pull my finger out!
There are a couple of short film clips on the EBI video thread in happenings if you're interested, thanks to Jo, Ian / Mav. You can hear the ratios are all wrong but 1st to 4th should give you and idea of what 5th and 6th will sound like next year.

Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on July 15, 2013, 14:20:45 pm
Quote

One other interesting thing. I'm currently running the car without an external oil cooler or the standard one on the block and it still took at least 20 minutes of driving to get the oil temperature over 80 degrees which was a big surprise. I have the external cooler pre fitted in a new location due to the suspension mods and just need to make up some new oil lines but I knew my initial journeys would be just a few short local runs I didn't bother thinking I could just keep an eye on the oil temp. As it turns out I could go far further than I thought, but to be fair it was a regular traffic low speed so that does go some way to explaining it. That and the fact even thought its nearly the longest day of the year here in the UK it was only about 15 degrees!


Well the car is back in one piece again after a few fixes and upgrades and took it for a drive on Sunday afternoon as is was about 30 degrees so I thought it would be a good hot running test with the oil cooler in its new location and to see if I can leave the deck lid closed as I never really liked the look of the standoffs.
The oil cooler is now where the torsion housing used to be as I figured getting the weight further forward would be a good thing and if all we under and about air running of the back of the floor pans and into the area under the boot floor it should not be too bad. That said its closer than ideal to the underside of the boot floor directly above where the torsion housing normally sits.
The car got up to 90 degrees with about 10 minutes running in traffic and a couple of short runs at 60mph on some open roads. A short blast later and the temp was just over 90 and it then stayed between 90 and 95 with similar traffic and open road driving. Oil pressure was still good at this point around 40psi at 4000rpm. I then switched the fans on at 95 which dropped the temp to 85 in about 1-2 mins. I left the fans on and the temp stuck at 85 or there abouts for the rest of the journey.
When I got home I left the car on tick over with the fans on and with the low rpm the oil temp dropped to 80 degrees.
So it looks like I still have some good temp control for the longer journeys to the track as itís unlikely to get significantly hotter over here.
As before the oil pressure and oil temp were quite closely linked with a 10 degree increase in oil temp resulting in approximately a 10 psi drop in oil pressure, perhaps slightly less if anything.
All this with the deck lid closed, but I might nick one of my sonís tennis balls to open the bottom of the lid just to give a bit more air to the engine and see if it makes any significant difference to the temps for the drive to the track on Friday as it looks like itís still going to be hot still.
More street miles on Wednesday just because I can!
Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Shane Noone on July 15, 2013, 15:05:01 pm
Hi Peter,

Very Interesting reading and real life tech feedback, as I also drive my racecar out and about and to the track and back. ( Just raced at Dragstalgia after driving there and back in those same 30 degree temps ). My 2332 Comp Eliminator motor was sat around 100 degrees C Oil Temps measured in sump via VDO dipstick sender on the road jouney. My cooling is stock doghouse plus 19 row Mocal and Kenlowe fan. I had the fan on the whole journey. When I got home with the motor idling on my driveway and the fan running it did pull down to 95 quite quickly and I expect would drop to 90 if I waited. ( I have seen the fan drop the oil temp by up to 10 degrees C previously but on cooler days ).

Your setup is running nice cooler oil temps. I can't remember do you have the MS230 heads on your mouse ? What's you Compression Ratio set to ? ( am assuming as road car your using some 99 RON pump fuel ).

Have you got any pics of your remote cooler location you can share on here ? I did have a quick look under your car at DD but can't remember.

Thanks,

Shane.




Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on July 16, 2013, 09:15:42 am
Hi Shane,
Good to hear you're another one who driving your car on the road and to the track, and with any luck home again!
I run modified std heads so plenty of fin area to help with keeping the heads cool, a CSP non dog house fan shroud with a wide fan and a power pulley. My oil temp sender is also in the sump. CR is 12.7:1 and it runs on Shell 99 pump gas.
I'm sure I have a picture of the cooler some where but I'm hopeless at all the resizing and all that to post them. I'll have a go at some point, but basically its in the std torsion housing location.

Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Shane Noone on July 16, 2013, 11:33:35 am
Hi Shane,
Good to hear you're another one who driving your car on the road and to the track, and with any luck home again!
I run modified std heads so plenty of fin area to help with keeping the heads cool, a CSP non dog house fan shroud with a wide fan and a power pulley. My oil temp sender is also in the sump. CR is 12.7:1 and it runs on Shell 99 pump gas.
I'm sure I have a picture of the cooler some where but I'm hopeless at all the resizing and all that to post them. I'll have a go at some point, but basically its in the std torsion housing location.

Peter

Morning Peter,

Yep, there's not too many of us left that still do that !  ;)

Ah ok, yes the extra cooling ability of a stock style head on a street driven motor. Wise choice ! Are you running any additives like anti-det stuff when racing on pump 99 with that kind of compression ratio ?? And you just cruise around the streets  presumably at low speed RPM's where the effective CR is much lower due to cam bleed off on plain 99 without any signs of detonation.....?

Ok no worries about uploading pics etc - I'm pretty useless at that stuff myself  :D Just wondered if your cooler was flat or upright in location and whether you were forcing air through it with some sort of ducting or just relied on an electric fan to push / pull air through the cooler as and when you switched it on etc......

Cheers Shane

Ps when / where are you next planning to race as if I can make it I'll come take a fresh look and say hello.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on July 16, 2013, 14:00:31 pm
Hi Shane,

No det issues, but as you say the cam has big duration so at low rpm it makes very little dynamic CR so not much heat. Not had to use an octane booster but I do have a bottle just in case....

Open road speed is slow though 4000rpm is about 60mph but temps are well under control then. I like to keep them as low as poss within reason (80-90 degrees), so engine expansion is kept in check so that the oil pressure stays good with nice tolerances for the bearings and lifter bores.

Next outing with the car is this weekend at Bugjam.

If you can face the mayhem that is Bugjam drop by.

Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Lee.C on July 16, 2013, 15:02:42 pm
Hmmmm interesting reading on the fuel/CR/det etc

I know there are ALOT of other factors to consider but I was worring about 11.8:1  :-\



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: 1946vw on July 17, 2013, 05:43:35 am
9.04 143.10 with a 1668cc engine G/D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Neil Davies on July 17, 2013, 12:48:21 pm
9.04 143.10 with a 1668cc engine G/D

Amazing, well done! :o I'd love to see your engine matched up to Peter Shattock's gearbox - I'd imagine it would sound like a swarm of angry wasps with chainsaws!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on July 18, 2013, 13:48:07 pm
Neil, I think you'll find Brian has a gearbox well suited to his dragster and engine to run that sort of number.

Very impressive Brian which motor was this?

A new PB I assume, did it get you a record back too?

Less is more!

Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: speedwell on July 18, 2013, 17:19:47 pm
Neil, I think you'll find Brian has a gearbox well suited to his dragster and engine to run that sort of number.

Very impressive Brian which motor was this?

A new PB I assume, did it get you a record back too?

Less is more!

Peter

peter there's a tread about brian's engine here (http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,18903.0.html)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on July 28, 2013, 20:28:43 pm
Well this is my last update again for a while following the race last weekend at Bugjam, as Iíve decided to make an early start to my planned winter updates, in a hope I can avoid a last minute rush next year
Iím glad to say Bugjam was far better than I had expected as an event. Itís been a few years since I was there last and the way they have set up the racers pit meant there were only people interested that bothered to walk in which was good. Iím sure there were plenty of revellers there but they didnít make it to the racers pits. To the credit of the Santa Pod staff it was all very well organised and all in all an enjoyable weekend.
I finally got to drive the car to the track again which was the first long drive I had time for with previous longest runs being  only around 30-35 minutes. I just bumbled along for the 2 Ĺ hours it took to get to the track from home.  At about 55mph oil temps were just over 90 degrees with the fans off and the deck lid closed. Fans on they got down to below 75 degrees and as before the oil pressure increased over 10 psi in this temp range.
The first long run with the gear box revealed it shifts quicker with warm oil (no great surprise) which is now on the list of jobs to contemplate for the future.
Friday was a day of bracket racing for me with a string of 11.5* second runs, but the clutch was marginal on a good track after a couple of runs and that familiar clutch aroma filled the garage after each run. On Saturday this resulted in me trying to get the car off the line without a burnout or even a tire scrub the latter was what I was doing on Friday. This worked remarkably well and I actually managed to run a couple of 11.4*ís just to break the monotony of the 5*ís. I went backwards on Sunday with 2 11.6*ís, but I managed to get back to the 4*ís for the first round of eliminations but got beaten by JG (again). The highlight at the track was a 117mph run which is my best terminal speed, but I think this was mainly due to a healthy tail wind rather than anything either the car or I did.
Having packed everything back in the car again the drive home was great on a nice warm evening, I left the fans on and drove faster when there wasnít traffic jams and could keep the oil temps at 80 degrees between 60-65mph and did this for about an hour on the last part of the journey, again with the deck lid closed.
Big thanks go to Ian, Alex and Mav for all their help and advice over the weekend.
The cars not gone any quicker this year and has actually been at best 1.4 tenths of its best time from 2010. It would of course have been nice to go quicker, but this year was all about trying to prove the new setup works and is safe and reliable. The good news is that this has proved to be the case in all respects having driven the car a fair bit on the road now and on 3 different tracks. Hopefully there are no horror stories when I get the car apart, but Iíll just have to wait and see on that front.
I have to say a big thank you to Luke and Andy at Robinson Race Cars, as they mounted the gearbox, built the rear suspension and set the car up and provided loads of advice and help along the way. Also Paul for the gearbox and the suspension design advice which in all has made the car very easy to drive and a lot of fun to change gear with!
I have a busy winter ahead, but looking forward to 2014 already.
Peter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs5dHwTLqmQ


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Martin Greaves on August 15, 2013, 23:10:25 pm
If someone was to put together a 62.5X94 where would be the best place to get shorter than stock head studs as the rods are going to be 4.75..


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: dangerous on August 16, 2013, 02:45:25 am
Short ;D of having some made,
you can go for 10mm studs, from 36 and 40hp engines.
They go in steps of about 1/2" from the 36hp upper and lower,
right up to the last 1500 and 1600 dual and single port M10 studs.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Old Guy on August 16, 2013, 16:18:19 pm
6.28 @ 115MPH in the 1/8th with a 1641.  Take a look at the "Hyper Bug" for sale.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jee Ent. on September 03, 2013, 12:21:59 pm
What! Are you running a 6-speed tranny?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs5dHwTLqmQ


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: SixGun on September 03, 2013, 13:00:19 pm
(http://www.robinson-race-cars.co.uk/Peter%20Shattock%203.jpg)

this ?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: folkevogn on September 03, 2013, 14:03:24 pm
What! Are you running a 6-speed tranny?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs5dHwTLqmQ

Here is Peter's description of the tranny(cut and past from page 21 in this tread).

"Its a Hewland JFR 6 speed sequential shift gearbox with straight cut gears and dog engagement. Its a smaller and cheaper version of their well known FTR box. They get used in formula 3 cars and some single make formula cars like Formula BMW, Chevron also use them in their new car single make racing series."

This is old news Jee, you need to pay attention to what goes on here on the Lounge  ;)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Lee.C on September 03, 2013, 15:31:09 pm
That car is just AMAZING and pete is a super nice guy.... Always ready to chat  :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jee Ent. on September 03, 2013, 21:02:25 pm
What! Are you running a 6-speed tranny?



Here is Peter's description of the tranny(cut and past from page 21 in this tread).

"Its a Hewland JFR 6 speed sequential shift gearbox with straight cut gears and dog engagement. Its a smaller and cheaper version of their well known FTR box. They get used in formula 3 cars and some single make formula cars like Formula BMW, Chevron also use them in their new car single make racing series."

This is old news Jee, you need to pay attention to what goes on here on the Lounge  ;)

You guys are keeping me way to busy.. Machining, burgereating, weddings and working the dyno takes to much of my web-time  :D

I guess I have to work the google on this one...


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on September 05, 2013, 00:51:39 am
I was planning on just working on the car tonight, but itís been a nice day here I thought I might just go for a drive instead.  Good choice as it turns out as Iíve been on holiday the last 2 weeks and hadnít been out in the car for nearly 4 weeks and it was just nice to get out in it.
It was a great razz round for an hour or so, just driving nowhere and having fun changing gear. The noise in the car with the clutch less shifts is very addictive and the forward motion in general is just mad on the street.  There is not the room to really let it off, or at least not on the little local roads I was driving on, but a quick blast here and there to get pinned back in the seat is all it takesÖ...
Even got back in the garage and did a bit work on the new battery box and dry sump tank mounts so a bit of fun and some progress on the to do list too.
Iím not sure why, but just driving round like a bit of an idiot in a silly old car is still a lot of fun for some reason.
Happiness is a Hot VW.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Taylor on September 05, 2013, 01:38:38 am
What kind of dry sump pump will you use??


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: BeetleBug on September 05, 2013, 06:28:04 am
I was planning on just working on the car tonight, but itís been a nice day here I thought I might just go for a drive instead.  Good choice as it turns out as Iíve been on holiday the last 2 weeks and hadnít been out in the car for nearly 4 weeks and it was just nice to get out in it.
It was a great razz round for an hour or so, just driving nowhere and having fun changing gear. The noise in the car with the clutch less shifts is very addictive and the forward motion in general is just mad on the street.  There is not the room to really let it off, or at least not on the little local roads I was driving on, but a quick blast here and there to get pinned back in the seat is all it takesÖ...
Even got back in the garage and did a bit work on the new battery box and dry sump tank mounts so a bit of fun and some progress on the to do list too.
Iím not sure why, but just driving round like a bit of an idiot in a silly old car is still a lot of fun for some reason.
Happiness is a Hot VW.

A truly inspirational summary! Thanks Peter.

-BB-


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on September 05, 2013, 21:26:13 pm
The new pump will be the little CB 21mm / 26mm one.

I think I'll need to sneak in a few more drives before it comes apart for the winter whilst the weather is still good.

Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: dannyboy on September 05, 2013, 22:36:20 pm
october 12th at shakey wold be a good time to do a bit of late season testing peter ;-)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: stretch on September 06, 2013, 08:29:18 am
october 12th at shakey wold be a good time to do a bit of late season testing peter ;-)


I agree !!   :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Taylor on September 06, 2013, 08:44:53 am
The new pump will be the little CB 21mm / 26mm one.

I think I'll need to sneak in a few more drives before it comes apart for the winter whilst the weather is still good.

Peter
Do you think the CB pump will be adequate??  I'm really curious as to your thoughts. Im in the market too and was wondering about their pump.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on September 06, 2013, 23:08:03 pm
Nice thought in principal Danny, but unless I cut a hole in the floor pan and do an ĎAnt Hill Mobí I might be a little uncompetitive, as the motor and gearbox will be out of the car by then! Good luck to you though and I hope the weather behaves.

Hi Taylor,

As far as the CB pump is concerned the truthful answer is I donít know if it will work yet, so donít feel like Iím in a position to say. This will be the first time Iíve used a dry sump system myself.

Regardless I always think itís very difficult to make comparisons about what might work with one combination relative to another when there are so many potential variables. Not only that I think you really need to understand all the issues before giving any advice and to be honest I struggle to understand the issues with my car let alone anyone elseís!

All that said Iím happy to let you know how it works out once I know.

Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: dannyboy on September 07, 2013, 09:25:16 am
peak performance on the 20th of this month peter  ;)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on September 09, 2013, 09:20:12 am
Danny, I'll not be racing again this year I was actually referring to doing a bit more driving on the street in my earlier message.

I've not done nearly enough of that over recent years, but I got out again this weekend till rain stopped play. Hopefully I'll get a few more drives in before next Tuesday when the motor comes out and the work for next year starts properly.

Its all very well having a street car, but its a bit of a waste of time going to all the extra hassle and expense if you don't drive it on the road, which as I've said I've been guilty of the past few years!

Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: 58vw on November 05, 2013, 05:41:00 am
awesome Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Ian Brown on November 12, 2013, 23:20:27 pm
Just got my 1300cc Twinport back from GAC after a rebuild...126bhp@7400, 96ft/lb@5500 (still has 92ft/lb@7400!!) Alan knows how to build a motor.
Spec: 1285cc, 44 webers, Cam FK10, rockers 1:25.1 inlets 1:1 exhaust, VW twinport heads with stock size valves, CR 11:6.1, running on Sunoco RMR fuel, Cooling by ram air, 12v fan and twin external oil coolers.

Beetle runs in HSCC Historic Touring Car Championship (That means swing axles and corning at 90mph on 120mm & 135mm wide crossplys...oh yes)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLplbU9ZvDs


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: chopper476 on November 12, 2013, 23:49:16 pm
Just got my 1300cc Twinport back from GAC after a rebuild...126bhp@7400, 96ft/lb@5500 (still has 92ft/lb@7400!!) Alan knows how to build a motor.
Spec: 1285cc, 44 webers, Cam FK10, rockers 1:25.1 inlets 1:1 exhaust, VW twinport heads with stock size valves, CR 11:6.1, running on Sunoco RMR fuel, Cooling by ram air, 12v fan and twin external oil coolers.

Beetle runs in HSCC Historic Touring Car Championship (That means swing axles and corning at 90mph on 120mm & 135mm wide crossplys...oh yes)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLplbU9ZvDs

That's awesome! What a car! Cool that your circuit racing and up against other classics (Lotus Cortina looked nice), and 126 from a 1300cc is awesome, roughly 100bhp per litre!!!!! :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Frodo on November 12, 2013, 23:58:09 pm
Just got my 1300cc Twinport back from GAC after a rebuild...126bhp@7400, 96ft/lb@5500 (still has 92ft/lb@7400!!) Alan knows how to build a motor.
Spec: 1285cc, 44 webers, Cam FK10, rockers 1:25.1 inlets 1:1 exhaust, VW twinport heads with stock size valves, CR 11:6.1, running on Sunoco RMR fuel, Cooling by ram air, 12v fan and twin external oil coolers.

Beetle runs in HSCC Historic Touring Car Championship (That means swing axles and corning at 90mph on 120mm & 135mm wide crossplys...oh yes)


WOW!!! Thanks for sharing. Love the song from that little engine!
Great numbers too!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Ian Brown on November 13, 2013, 00:48:15 am
This rebuild gives me an extra 10bhp to take into next season, along with some weight reduction (minimum weight 720kg with driver) currently around 755kg.

The racing is for pre 1965 cars and I'm lapping quicker than half the Mini Coopers, a couple of Lotus Cortinas, several Alfa guilias, Imps, a Ford Anglia, Triumph 2500cc, Mustang and a 7 litre Galaxie!...The quickest of the Minis and V8's are well out of my reach at the moment mind you, so still work to do.

Already collecting parts for a mega narrow, mega light 1298cc motor (83mm bore with a custom 60mm Scat crank) The extra bore will allow us to run big valves, so expect a lot more power from this one....On paper it should be around the 145-150bhp mark.   


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Torben Alstrup on November 13, 2013, 08:05:00 am

Already collecting parts for a mega narrow, mega light 1298cc motor (83mm bore with a custom 60mm Scat crank) The extra bore will allow us to run big valves, so expect a lot more power from this one....On paper it should be around the 145-150bhp mark.  
Mini formula 1  ;D

Sounds good.
And good that you got some more CR into it. That helps a lot in keeping the torque so the car doesnt get left behind out of the corners.
Good job.

T

PS It actually sounds more nippy now. It looks like it pick up the gears really well for what it is.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Lee.C on November 13, 2013, 14:44:17 pm
Cool racing and a Cool engine  :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Udo on November 13, 2013, 19:41:46 pm
That sounds good , may be you need some shorter gears ?

Udo


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: dannyboy on November 13, 2013, 20:50:33 pm
Just got my 1300cc Twinport back from GAC after a rebuild...126bhp@7400, 96ft/lb@5500 (still has 92ft/lb@7400!!) Alan knows how to build a motor.
Spec: 1285cc, 44 webers, Cam FK10, rockers 1:25.1 inlets 1:1 exhaust, VW twinport heads with stock size valves, CR 11:6.1, running on Sunoco RMR fuel, Cooling by ram air, 12v fan and twin external oil coolers.

Beetle runs in HSCC Historic Touring Car Championship (That means swing axles and corning at 90mph on 120mm & 135mm wide crossplys...oh yes)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLplbU9ZvDs

i was looking at this motor the other day just before it went on the dyno  8) be interesting what it would do over the 1/4  alans motors are great and his service is great too  :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Zach Gomulka on November 13, 2013, 22:17:17 pm
What is your gearing like?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Ian Brown on November 14, 2013, 07:16:17 am
The gearing is slightly too low, i'm hitting 8000rpm at silverstone at 108mph, so this year I tried taller tyres which to up that to 113mph, but in reality it actually hurt the lap times. Should be able to get near to 111-113mph next year with a tow off someone....you can get a good 3-4 mph with a good tow.

Gears are 2:90, 1:86, 1:41, 1:13, R&P 4:86, so the maximum speeds in each gear are somewhere around 45, 68, 90, 113mph

First gear is 10mph taller than stock which will be useless at the drags as I have to slip the clutch for a few seconds. Computer calculations say it should run a low 14, but realistically I should be looking at somewhere around the 15's

I've only taken it to the drags once in 2009 with the engine popping and stuttering all the way, so much so I couldn't use 3rd gear as the engine would die. at the time the engine was fouling it's plugs, so would run like crap on the 1/4, then clear itself and pull clean and strong on the return road (very annoying)...ran a 17:1@82mph (in second gear!)

I'll take it to the drags this year. Is there a world or european 1300cc 1/4 mile and speed record?.....If there isn't, I guess i'll have to set some.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: dannyboy on November 14, 2013, 12:16:39 pm
walter (airspeed) on here setup some speed events up north over a mile i think he is doing it again this year ,im sure he will be along to comment on here soon,elvington mile i think its called


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Chris bugster on November 15, 2013, 20:13:01 pm
Really sweet sounding motor. More power than most 1776s.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jesus on December 07, 2013, 19:36:52 pm
The gearing is slightly too low, i'm hitting 8000rpm at silverstone at 108mph, so this year I tried taller tyres which to up that to 113mph, but in reality it actually hurt the lap times. Should be able to get near to 111-113mph next year with a tow off someone....you can get a good 3-4 mph with a good tow.

Gears are 2:90, 1:86, 1:41, 1:13, R&P 4:86, so the maximum speeds in each gear are somewhere around 45, 68, 90, 113mph

First gear is 10mph taller than stock which will be useless at the drags as I have to slip the clutch for a few seconds. Computer calculations say it should run a low 14, but realistically I should be looking at somewhere around the 15's

I've only taken it to the drags once in 2009 with the engine popping and stuttering all the way, so much so I couldn't use 3rd gear as the engine would die. at the time the engine was fouling it's plugs, so would run like crap on the 1/4, then clear itself and pull clean and strong on the return road (very annoying)...ran a 17:1@82mph (in second gear!)

I'll take it to the drags this year. Is there a world or european 1300cc 1/4 mile and speed record?.....If there isn't, I guess i'll have to set some.

http://www.apexfestival.co.uk/save-the-date/index.html

I am certain Simon would love to have you along to this event, if your interested you can get in touch with him simon@apexfestival.co.uk

They have a bunch of circuit beetles there from all kinds of series, including a pack of cars coming from the daily cup series that runs in France


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Ian Brown on December 15, 2013, 19:31:10 pm
[quote I am certain Simon would love to have you along to this event, if your interested you can get in touch with him simon@apexfestival.co.uk. They have a bunch of circuit beetles there from all kinds of series, including a pack of cars coming from the daily cup series that runs in France quote]

I've been in contact with Simon for some time as I'd planned to run in both the Beetle Challenge and Historic Touring Car Championships but i've either had car trouble or the race dates between the two Championships have clashed.

The Apex Festival as ever, clashes with the Silverstone round of Historic Touring Car which happens on the Sunday, so the plan is to race at the Apex festival on the Saturday, then race with the Historics on the Sunday....Really looking forward to seeing how my Beetle handles on proper semi-slicks compared to the Beetle Challenge cars which run very different suspension setups to me.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Ian Brown on December 22, 2013, 20:14:17 pm
BREAKING NEWS...We could be seeing an oval Beetle racing at the Goodwood Revival next year.

Met up with Geoff Turrel the other day who is building an Oval to race in HRDC Historic Touring Car with an invite to race in the revival looking likely. The HRDC/Goodwood Revival rule book isn't strictly 'period perfect' so don't worry, it won't be lagging round the back of the field with a gutless 1200cc motor, instead it'll be a 1641 running 48IDA's so expect some serious speed.

Watch this space for updates on the build over the next few months.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: nicolas on December 23, 2013, 06:56:21 am
cool! and very impressive video. the engine sounds awesome.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Ian Brown on December 25, 2013, 01:16:00 am
cool! and very impressive video. the engine sounds awesome.

Thanks...although 8000rpm sounds better from the outside. Mine's the second car through
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6562X3hF-I


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: lee-maynard on January 23, 2014, 13:21:04 pm
same heads ian? i see you upped the compression............temps still good?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Ian Brown on January 23, 2014, 20:43:14 pm
same heads ian? i see you upped the compression............temps still good?


Still running your old heads....I haven't run the car yet but I start testing soon. The compression is up but temps should be O.K as the race fuel runs cooler than pump gas, I believe its 100RON 89MON (max allowed) with 2.7% oxygen. The Sunoco RMR fuel is more expensive than Nitro and my 1300cc does around 7 miles to the gallon.....Better be worth it!!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: whirligig on March 01, 2014, 16:34:17 pm
as you may have seen if you read my post rebuilding the 1679 ,now have some bits from the 1903 but think they may be to much.spec for this rebuild is aftermarket 69 crank(pos crome moly?)balanced with lightened flywheel,stock shot peaned and balanced end for end rods,88 p&bs (slap me if thats wrong )1300 fly cut heads stock valves ,cant remember cam but have a 120 ,cheap old headers and stinger.36idfs on short manafolds.Now on a strict budget so cant afford mega machine work ,plan is to work ports ,check compression and see if it will go 12:1.now the questions,will the web 86c be way to much cam,stock rockers tone it down?or can I fit the 1.4 rockers to the 120.1 5/8 header to big?48idf to big(have some 40s but lots of bits missing )will be happy to run mid 14s stripped out shell,cage so 120hp?starting on it wednesday so any ideas


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Neil Davies on March 01, 2014, 18:40:16 pm
Dave, remember my old car when it had the 1584 in it?  That was a £100 motor from out of a mates shed, just a stock motor. I added 1.25 rockers, 36drlas on tall manifolds and a 1 5/8" merged header and ran very low 16s. Match ported the manifolds, a new set of stock valves and springs, used the close ratio gearbox for the big motor and it went 15.7's. Don't forget that I'm a decent amount heavier than Holly too, although the car was light.

I'm no expert but I reckon that 12:1 is going to be a bit much. I'd use the 120 cam and no more than 10:1 compression,  and if you can put the 40s together then you stand a fighting chance of getting a 14. What gears are you using now?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: whirligig on March 01, 2014, 19:22:16 pm
lower 3&4th but cant remember what,we ran just in the 14s as the motor was but it seems to have lost a bit towards the end of last year.will know more when its pulled.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: spanners on March 18, 2014, 23:27:02 pm
You can't run 1.4s on the 120, it will kill the valve train, pound valve seats and break valves, the 120 will also need double springs to go over 6000 rpm with the 1.25 max r/ratio on it,  and as above, you could run 10.1comp on a 120, but for safety, use shell optimax , for drags the 1"5/8  pipes will work at the cost of low end response,  and yes, the 86c is a big motor, big valve cam, but again, it could work with a very low 1200/1300 r&p and close gears with about a 121 top gear on a 26 " tyre, it needs to scream and will need double springs to rev out to its spec limit.




Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: whirligig on March 19, 2014, 00:20:58 am
as you might have seen from the other post ,had to use the 044 cnc heads so double springs 40mm inlet ect.we ran octaine booster on super unleaded in old motor,it LOVED the booster as its ment to release oxygen----sales pitch dont know but it worked.hope fully will be firing it up on friday,next prob will be jeting it ,took a guess and ordered 138 s old engine ran 130s.have some 150s but will be to big I think.shame cant afford dyno time.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: whirligig on March 21, 2014, 22:29:47 pm
IT LIVES,fired up motor today and it sounds sharp,did find ign timing over advanced though .reset but not run again yet as fitted drop spindles .test run around carpark (trading estate)tomorrow afty .


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: whirligig on March 31, 2014, 10:07:44 am
ran at Shakey Sunday,few shake down passes,redid valve clearances and then jet changes.got 2 good runs best of 15.07 so looks well for 14s as engine still tight and jetting not perfect.also ign advance 32deg so might take a bit more.cant work out jetting from plugs as they didnt alter evan when defo to rich! stayed a grey shade?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: fish on April 05, 2014, 12:09:15 pm

Nicely done for 1679cc 14s around the corner, and probably 13s if you put the car on a diet. what cam/rocker combo did you end up running, never mind I read your other post.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Ian Brown on April 09, 2014, 00:34:28 am
Shaking down my 1300cc Beetle at Silverstone this friday ready for the 2014 Historic Touring Car season, then (weather permitting) i'll be at the Big Bang the following day for some RWYB....I figured its about time someone set an ET and MPH record for a 1300cc....My circuit racing gears are all wrong for the drags (very long first gear, so no point warming the tyres as I have to slip the clutch for the first 60ft)

Still, I won't be happy till i've squeezed a 15 out of it!

You can't miss me...Coral red bug with race numbers pulling 8000rpm!  ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: cnfabo on April 16, 2014, 11:21:28 am
Shaking down my 1300cc Beetle at Silverstone this friday ready for the 2014 Historic Touring Car season, then (weather permitting) i'll be at the Big Bang the following day for some RWYB....I figured its about time someone set an ET and MPH record for a 1300cc....My circuit racing gears are all wrong for the drags (very long first gear, so no point warming the tyres as I have to slip the clutch for the first 60ft)

Still, I won't be happy till i've squeezed a 15 out of it!

You can't miss me...Coral red bug with race numbers pulling 8000rpm!  ;D
Good to hear your back out racing ian...good luck...oh and can't wait to hear that 8000rpm,yeehaa.......


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Ian Brown on April 20, 2014, 09:06:12 am
Hi....Yes i'm back.

I had issues at the Silverstone 'shakedown' test as the carb base gaskets both had air leaks and I had no spares, plus one of the spark plugs crapped out and I was losing oil which meant I never made it to the drags the following day either, but I guess that's what a shakedown is all about.

Carb gaskets and plugs replaced, oil leak fixed and I'm testing at Brands Hatch this Wednesday (23rd April). In the morning i'll run fast road brake pads using the skinny Historic Racing crossply tyres (120mm front, 135mm rear) then in the afternoon change to race pads with Toyo R888 semi slicks and see what the car can really do. Keep an eye on the Just Kampers YouTube channel for the onboard footage.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: cnfabo on April 21, 2014, 01:21:39 am
Hi....Yes i'm back.

I had issues at the Silverstone 'shakedown' test as the carb base gaskets both had air leaks and I had no spares, plus one of the spark plugs crapped out and I was losing oil which meant I never made it to the drags the following day either, but I guess that's what a shakedown is all about.

Carb gaskets and plugs replaced, oil leak fixed and I'm testing at Brands Hatch this Wednesday (23rd April). In the morning i'll run fast road brake pads using the skinny Historic Racing crossply tyres (120mm front, 135mm rear) then in the afternoon change to race pads with Toyo R888 semi slicks and see what the car can really do. Keep an eye on the Just Kampers YouTube channel for the onboard footage.

Shweet azz...


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Ian Brown on April 22, 2014, 07:21:00 am
Chris, How's your rebuild going....are you fixing the old race car or starting with a new one?

ian


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: cnfabo on April 23, 2014, 16:07:08 pm
Chris, How's your rebuild going....are you fixing the old race car or starting with a new one?

ian


Started a complete new one,never again ::),lol....I have emailed u some pics....


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Ian Brown on July 15, 2014, 20:12:00 pm
Lap of the Brands Hatch GP circuit in a 1300cc Beetle....Bin waiting 5 years to race here again and the alternator belt crapped out after one lap taking the dipstick with it.... :'(

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJO0CqJ0CBw&feature=youtu.be


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Ian Brown on August 06, 2014, 07:03:03 am
Just come back from a double header at Croft.

Race 1 (wet and long)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF7ChAZoIv0&feature=youtu.be

Race 2 (dry and short)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5e1wbUMPMAk


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: bang on August 24, 2014, 14:14:59 pm
anyone has some idea for my next engine projekt.

want to build a 1610cc for hill climb.

my engine plan is a dpr 58mm wbx knife edge crank with a flywheel from jussi in finland.
wedgeport heads 94mm 46x36
6,2" pauter alu rods
cp light piston
48 ida with raptor upgrade
raptor cam
dry sump
oxy case

exhaust size i am not shure on.

what do you think of that setup. would it be undrivable


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: richie on August 24, 2014, 15:34:40 pm
An interesting idea :)


Leave out those rods, all they will do is make you need a real long pushrod, a 5.2 rod would be better ;D

Its going to need to be a real light car for it to work at all, and probably need a 6 speed sequential box like Pete S has to keep it in rpm band

cheers Richie


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: whirligig on August 25, 2014, 16:58:50 pm
not a record but Holly ran a 14.38 @91.5 with a 1.86 60ft .track and air super at shakey on sunday ,a bit to much umidity today


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Ian Brown on September 02, 2014, 12:58:12 pm
1/4 mile record for a 1300cc Beetle?...If you know of a quicker 1200-1300 let me know.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nVX-ZcleKE&list=UUcjAhwWO65zKiIzhOncRjdg

Also my last 2 races at the Oulton Park Gold Cup (yep...more rain!!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAfdyWBd9WY&list=UUcjAhwWO65zKiIzhOncRjdg


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: spanners on September 06, 2014, 08:44:29 am
Yes, short rod motor for the hills, higher piston speed = good cylinder filling, not sure about so short a stroke costing torque tho, it may be a bitch to keep it pulling and Ritchie is bang on about the gears, also I would never knock the fabulous Wasser engine case as I build the beasts, but not for a mini motor on a handling track discipline, too heavy, I would go mag T1 with 8mm studs, weight must be paired all over the car or you are wasting your time, ram air cool it too to save weight, no alternator or fan, oh, and a AA flash light battery too lol.   ;)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: spanners on September 06, 2014, 08:54:56 am
Just come back from a double header at Croft.

Race 1 (wet and long)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF7ChAZoIv0&feature=youtu.be

Race 2 (dry and short)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5e1wbUMPMAk
Oops, left front contact= tyre valve torn out...get some bolt ins Ian, that or short go kart ones.
 ;)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Ian Brown on September 06, 2014, 15:21:24 pm
Hi, The tyre was fine, it was the throttle cable getting jammed. I've re-routed the cable and added fresh return springs since.

Next race Brands Indy 28th Sept if you are near by.

ian


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: tumba on September 24, 2014, 13:03:45 pm
JPM Ultimate 1776cc VW Aircooled
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgsjzTOm4EE&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgsjzTOm4EE&feature=youtu.be)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: andy M. on September 24, 2014, 18:05:31 pm
WAAAAAAAARP!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: WPS on September 24, 2014, 20:22:12 pm
JPM Ultimate 1776cc VW Aircooled
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgsjzTOm4EE&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgsjzTOm4EE&feature=youtu.be)


That's initial run up to 7000ish rpm only so another 4000 to go!!!  :o Can't wait to hear it on full song!!

Best to watch it on full screen with the sound turned up to max.....!!

We'll be going back for the JPM Dyno Day to pick it up and have a little test drive  :P .......flights are cheap!! ;)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Neil Davies on September 24, 2014, 20:36:12 pm
Oh my goodness! That is awesome. With the Hewland and the rear suspension, it's really pushing the envelope. It's still going to be a street car tho, isn't it?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: WPS on September 24, 2014, 20:49:47 pm

Oh my goodness! That is awesome. With the Hewland and the rear suspension, it's really pushing the envelope. It's still going to be a street car tho, isn't it?

Of course.......but it'll take Pete all winter to get the fanshroud to fit....he like's to take his time with the files and hammers.  ::)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Lee.C on September 24, 2014, 22:12:41 pm
Love this car/engine!!!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Eddie DVK on September 25, 2014, 07:25:40 am

Oh my goodness! That is awesome. With the Hewland and the rear suspension, it's really pushing the envelope. It's still going to be a street car tho, isn't it?

Of course.......but it'll take Pete all winter to get the fanshroud to fit....he like's to take his time with the files and hammers.  ::)

Is he driving it home from Sweden..???


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: andy M. on September 25, 2014, 10:43:32 am
11 grand would beWAAAAAARP! then


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: andy198712 on September 26, 2014, 13:01:35 pm
Those throttle valves are beautiful!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: dive!dive! on September 28, 2014, 09:25:25 am
Well, if that isn't inspirational , I don't know what is. It already sounds demented! I love these smaller motors and Pete's efforts are a big reason I'm keeping developing my 1776 - but I am miles from this...
Yes, the big CC motors are powerful and fast but there is something compelling about doing more with less. Great stuff!
Steve


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: andy198712 on September 28, 2014, 12:38:39 pm
Well, if that isn't inspirational , I don't know what is. It already sounds demented! I love these smaller motors and Pete's efforts are a big reason I'm keeping developing my 1776 - but I am miles from this...
Yes, the big CC motors are powerful and fast but there is something compelling about doing more with less. Great stuff!
Steve

totally agree!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Pas on September 29, 2014, 00:55:19 am
Well, if that isn't inspirational , I don't know what is. It already sounds demented! I love these smaller motors and Pete's efforts are a big reason I'm keeping developing my 1776 - but I am miles from this...
Yes, the big CC motors are powerful and fast but there is something compelling about doing more with less. Great stuff!
Steve

totally agree!

Me too!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Ian Brown on October 09, 2014, 14:03:48 pm
No quite 11,000rpm but here's the latest onboard of my 1300cc pulling a measly 8000rpm....enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNWTt_NPWcg&list=UUcjAhwWO65zKiIzhOncRjdg


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: spanners on October 13, 2014, 20:17:44 pm
Looked and sounded ok Ian, Did it throw the belt at the end ? Red light lit, We are also a gear higher round the Indy, third at Druids, top at paddock and surtees,  just snick down to third for Clark curve, big motor tho, a gear higher than ideal is often far quicker as it keeps the car settled, you can then left foot brake which helps keeps pitch under control. Looked fun with all that history about the track, apart from the near cannon into the pocket off the lights!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Ian Brown on October 14, 2014, 08:17:24 am
Looked and sounded ok Ian, Did it throw the belt at the end ? Red light lit, We are also a gear higher round the Indy, third at Druids, top at paddock and surtees,  just snick down to third for Clark curve, big motor tho, a gear higher than ideal is often far quicker as it keeps the car settled, you can then left foot brake which helps keeps pitch under control. Looked fun with all that history about the track, apart from the near cannon into the pocket off the lights!

I only got 2 laps in qualifying due to the belt coming off so the other drivers had already had 17 more laps than me, so I wasn't really up to speed at the start of the race. I got quicker each lap and as you'll see, at the end of the movie I tried 2nd through Surtees and it threw the belt again, hence the generator light came on. As it turned out 2nd was too low for Surtees but it was worth trying as my engine does need to be kept buzzing as it has no torque.

At a previous race I removed the front anti-roll bar for wet qualifying and the front grip was staggering, then the track quickly dried and I had to run in the dry with no anti-roll bar. As it turned out the handling was better in the dry too so i've left it off ever since. The car is light so the extra body roll doesn't upset the car even if I throw it around. At brands though it was causing issues as the car is now unloading the inside rear tyre when I try and power out of tight corners (as you can probably hear on the movie)...My Beetle is just as quick in a straight line as the two red Imps ahead of me so I should be in the top 10, but I couldn't get the power down (especially out of Druids and Clearways) plus they are much better drivers so I was losing ground though paddock especially (haven't mastered paddock yet)

Next round is this Saturday (Silverstone National) so if its dry, for a quick fix I'll fit a stock anti roll bar back on the front (softer than my adjustable one) and lengthen the rods on the Z-bar which combined should stop the rear from unloading with any luck.

I'll let you know next week whether its worked or not

ian


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: spanners on October 14, 2014, 20:53:09 pm
Yes, Belt throwing was a problem on the BBT cup cars using only 6000, i went Over to a wee dry sump pully to slow the fan speed and controlled the extra oil temp with 2 huge coolers, the Vee on the pulley was machined deeper also to contain the belt, it cured the problem, Your also going the right way with a z bar shimmed to work full time, but only with the stock 22mm torsions, two things happen, traction is better as the inside wheel is made to work harder, and power understeer will increase, oddly, you may need more front AR bar on to keep front camber angle from body rolling into positive, we 're set' the top torsion arms for LOTS more negative, then we found 26mm torsion bars were just plain quicker and the way to keep it balanced and reduce under steer,  then we were able to abandon the z bars for less weight and it was so much more chuck able,  good balance in the rain too, but the inside wheel lifting came back but not as badly as with the skinny torsions.
Ahh yes Paddock, so many corner entry lines, generally, don't use the single seater wide entry out by the gravel trap turn in point, it's so under steery out there, for a bug anyway, mid track to maybe 2/3 rds track width is about right, more favourable track camber and less bumps lol. The trick is to just let just the car run, the steering feedback before the compression tells your brain to remove steering angle which you must resist,,,,lol , or it goes squirrely when you hit it. And a Low front ARB CAN LIFT THE FRONT OFF THE GROUND if you straddle that kerbing....Good luck at Silverstone.. Johnny.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Eddie DVK on October 22, 2014, 09:47:34 am
JPM Ultimate 1776cc VW Aircooled
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgsjzTOm4EE&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgsjzTOm4EE&feature=youtu.be)


Guys how did it work out on the JPM Dynoday..???


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Frallan on October 22, 2014, 11:30:34 am
Did not run it.
Still some ECU mapping gremlins to sort out.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Ian Brown on November 03, 2014, 14:10:23 pm
Your also going the right way with a z bar shimmed to work full time, but only with the stock 22mm torsions, two things happen, traction is better as the inside wheel is made to work harder, and power understeer will increase, oddly, you may need more front AR bar on to keep front camber angle from body rolling into positive, we 're set' the top torsion arms for LOTS more negative, then we found 26mm torsion bars were just plain quicker and the way to keep it balanced and reduce under steer,  then we were able to abandon the z bars for less weight and it was so much more chuck able,  good balance in the rain too, but the inside wheel lifting came back but not as badly as with the skinny torsions.

My best lap time with no front anti-roll bar on the Silverstone National Circuit was (1:19.0 dry track) as I couldn't get the power down on corner exit....Tried a stock front anti-roll bar in qualifying this time which helped (1:18.7 damp drying track)...re-fitted the heavy-duty adjustable front anti-roll bar for the dry race (1:15.7)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Ian Brown on November 03, 2014, 20:02:38 pm
Here you go....Last race of the season, so I gave the 1300cc some stick. (so much so I out -qualified 12 other cars including a Mustang and an E-Type!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loDjQb3DYV8


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on December 15, 2014, 23:06:04 pm
Just finished on the dyno with the new 1776, all loaded up now for the long trip home from JPM.

You can see a short video clip on the JPM Facebook page (I tried to put a link here but failed).  Peak power at 10k the rev limiter is at 10,700rpm.

So peak power 249.7hp at the flywheel that's 140.6hp/litre 13.2 BMEP. Not to shabby for an old floppy mag cased 2 valve per cylinder pushrod engine.

Now its down to me to try and do something with it!

Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Lee.C on December 15, 2014, 23:14:28 pm
Saw the video earlier dude..... AMAZING!  :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Udo on December 16, 2014, 07:47:59 am
Great results Peter - good luck with it and i hope we meet next year ....

Udo


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Jon on December 16, 2014, 13:27:44 pm
Congratulations Peter! Hope you reach your goals!
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=367056256809474


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on December 23, 2014, 11:39:44 am
Thought I would update this now I'm back home with the car after its longer than expected holiday in Sweden. Firstly a big thankyou to Phil West for the trailer which also had a 3 month holiday in Sweden and Ulf for looking after it all whilst Johannes sorted the new motor.
The new 1776 is a 64x94, not the usual 69x90.5, principally due to the ability to use bigger valves based on the bigger bore.
Valve train issues are what caused the delay after the initial dyno sessions back in September. We had a misfire that we originally thought was ignition related, but it turned out to be a loss of valve control. So no simple fix. This resulted in a less aggressive cam being used relative to that originally intended to keep the valves under control.
The joke to all this is that this is why it "only" makes 249hp.
Now we have proved the engine is capable producing peak power at 10,000rpm the big question now is how reliable will it be? Only time will tell, but its certainly not well proven with ACVW's. One way or another we'll know next year.
I'm actually reasonably confident about temperatures and the oil system, but obviously with the rpm valve train is the big challenge.
Other than reliability the next big challenge will be getting the car off the line successfully. There is limited rotating mass in the engine and limited torque relative to most ACVW motors making 250hp and a relatively heavy  car (compared to an all out race car).
This was a known issue though so hopefully we have enough in the plans we have made to find a solution.
Time at the rack is what the car needs now so we can try and work oout how to try and turn some decent numbers.
Little did I know what it would take when Peter Englezos and I were driving home to the airport after a trip to JPM when we agreed that this had to be done. I had been thinking about this motor for some time before this, and discussing it with a few people, but this was the moment it was actually something that was going to happen.
Plenty of jobs need doing now to get the car race ready which will start after Christmas, as I need to score a few house points with the family. The plan now is to have the car ready for its first outing at UKDD in May.
Taylor, following you question a while ago about the little CB oil pump I can say that my initial impression is that its up to the job in my engine. It has very solid oil pressure with the engine warm at idle and high rpm so it looks to have been a good choice so far.
Thanks for all the words of encouragement received which should help with the motivation for all the cold nights ahead in the garage over the winter getting it ready!
Finally I have to say thanks to Johannes.  This project has been a great experience and I've learnt an huge amount over the last 4 discussing it with him. Suffice to say its proved to be far more difficult than first thought, but a great deal of effort on his part has made this a reality. I said this after the last engine was built, but Johannes really does operate at the next level and once again the proof is right here!
This engine is a good step up in efficiency over the old engine which its self was better than most. But if the engine proves to be reliable and a solid base for development who knows where we might end up!
Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: dangerous on December 23, 2014, 11:50:38 am
Thanks for the updates Peter!
Does the engine use flat tappet or roller camshaft?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on December 23, 2014, 12:50:09 pm
Hi Dangerous its flat tappet.

Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: nicolas on December 23, 2014, 17:58:57 pm
very happy to hear that you have the car back home.

i know tea keeps me warm and happy when i work in my garage, but maybe the effect is slightly lower on more regular tea drinkers in the UK  ;D

see you next year.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: dive!dive! on December 23, 2014, 18:06:33 pm
Great stuff Peter. An inspiration as ever. Looking forward to seeing progress next year.
Got my 'modest' 1776 on the road again today after 4months out, it had some 'treatment' to the heads in the meantime from GAC, and now has an AEM EFI system with ITB's. Idle and WOT map points mostly sorted today , just the bits in between now :-)
Cheers
Steve


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: BeetleBug on December 23, 2014, 18:23:44 pm
Thanks for sharing Peter. It is very interesting to read about the camshaft. What was changed in order to get the engine to run properly @ 10k rpms? And why are you not happy with 140.7 hp/liter? If I'm not mistaken that must be a world record for a flat tappet cam, pushrods and 8 valves.

Very inspirational and just what the doctor ordered this winter to keep the momentum up. I really look forward to your race reports in 2015!

Best rgs and congrats to you and JPM!

-BB-


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: andy198712 on December 23, 2014, 18:54:27 pm
Great stuff Peter. An inspiration as ever. Looking forward to seeing progress next year.
Got my 'modest' 1776 on the road again today after 4months out, it had some 'treatment' to the heads in the meantime from GAC, and now has an AEM EFI system with ITB's. Idle and WOT map points mostly sorted today , just the bits in between now :-)
Cheers
Steve

What ITB's did you use?
cheers


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: dive!dive! on December 23, 2014, 18:58:36 pm
Speedshop IDF pattern, 38mm throttles.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on December 23, 2014, 19:56:12 pm
Hi BB,

The accelerations on the cam were basically to great. As it turns out the relatively small increase over what had been proven to be OK previously was to much and interestingly it was to much at a relatively low rpm (just over 8k), so we did not actually get close to the target rpm with the original cam.

On a positive note what this resulted in was Johannes digging back in his archives for a formula he was once given to determine valve spring requirement with some detailed data entry parameters and some complicated math. He found and used it and proved it to be accurate based on the cam, valve train and float rpm data he had from my engine and backed that up with some of the R&D work done to develop the off the shelf raptor cams on the single cylinder engine.

This was then used to reverse engineer the new cam based on what fixed parts we had in the valve train plus a safety margin.

I certainly did not mean to give the impression I was not happy as that could not be further from the truth. This little "gem" is dreamland for me. Back when I was first thinking about this project I was not sure raising the peak power rpm to 10k was even possible on anything other than paper, as we all know how inefficient these engines are. Particularly when you consider them relative to the sort of stable platform you get with a modern engine without even getting close to the benefits of 4 valves per cylinder central plug, direct acting cam to valve etc etc. As you know its a long list of problems we have to start with, with these old turds we try and tune.

Any hesitation on my part you may have picked up on was I suspect based on the fact that we now know given what we have seen there is potential for more subject to being able to control the valve train.

The point we have reached now is what Johannes and I have named phase 1. A this point we need to prove basic reliability before going any further, learning to walk before you try and run was the term I used.

You only have to listen to the video to know that there is a lot going on with that extra 2,000-3,000rpm above the point where most ACVW's make peak power and when you start looking at the loads the crank and case and oil system we need to be sure we have a reliable platform to build from. But as you might expect none of what we have in or around the engine has been based on guesswork. Theory, calculation, and experience has brought us to where we are today, although there are still unknowns.  

Clearly there are some who think this thing we have created is ready to throw its self all over the floor at any moment and I would be lying if I said it didn't cross my mind when I was stood behind it filming and hearing the 10,500rpm rev limiter! The truth is now that it has seen over 10,000rpm many times on the dyno and without wishing to temp fate it all looks good. The oil system and valve train have coped and at street driving rpm as I said before I'm fairly confident about general cooling. That said the CR and bore size are both greater which does ramp things up a bit so its certainly not a given.    

I've never been keen on saying what might be possible as its all to easy to get carried away when you start doing calculations and come up with a theory for impressive results. The truth is it all means nothing until it is a reality and it does the business on the dyno and track. That is not to rubbish the calculations as they are an essential tool so you know what you need to aim for in practice so you know you are on target.

What I will say is though I think both Johannes and I will both be equally disappointed if this is the end of the road in terms of hp/litre. We have a plan for phase 2 which I don't intend to elaborate on for now (sorry to carrot dangle) as its all totally academic if what we have today is not reliable. Needless to say we are hoping to prove the doubters wrong next year, but we do have a few slices of humble pie at the ready if we have it all wrong!

If nothing else I'm glad it has got you fired up for some winter tinkering of your own! I can tell you I'm not short of enthusiasm right now!

Peter          


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: andy198712 on December 24, 2014, 00:30:25 am
Very cool! Some serious envelope pushing going on! Seems like you have an open mind to it :)

So a lot has been spoken about the valve train, but what about the crank and case/bearings? That's a mighty rpm for them to handle??

Thanks for sharing :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on December 24, 2014, 13:49:01 pm
Hi Nicholas, as you suggest much tea will need to be consumed before this car can turn a wheel in anger next year!

Dive!dive!, always happy to see another 1776cc being tinkered with good luck with the mapping I've had my first lessons now and clearly have a lot to learn!

Andy, we are certainly trying to maximise things now and that was what this engine project and all the car modifications over the last couple of years have been all about. 2015 will be the first year when it is all in the car so as I said before track time is what is needed now to get it all sorted out and see if we can get it to all work together.

The main focus has been on the valve train because this is the first problem we had to solve, but you are right to question the bearings crank and case as they are clearly all potential problem areas. This is part of the reason for the steel plates on the case to help with rigidity and reduce the flex. The crank is a billet EN30B number which is much lighter than some of the larger cranks which are common to keep the loads down. It also has a light piston, pin, ring pack and rods with a view to keeping the loads on the crank, bearings and case to what we believe are acceptable levels. If you look back at the calc's Johannes quotes when building the 1603 mouse you will see the difference the light parts make and we have the short stroke crank on our side too. 

I think the dry sump oil system is a big improvement in this engine over the old wet sump I have been running in my engines previously. I had been avoiding it as I was not convinced all the extra weight and complication was worth it on performance grounds, but what swung it for me this time was a reliable better quality oil supply. In the old 1795 I was struggling with rod bearings and I believe this was down to either oil starvation or poor quality (aerated) oil at the pickup tube. Consequently the dry sump system became an easy choice and any small performance gain there may be is also an advantage. I appreciate the 21mm supply pump sounds very small to many, but I have heard from several people that I respect who have first hand experience with them and they have found them to be fine in applications which are actually likely to be more onerous than mine. 

There are many unproven things in this engine, but hopefully this time next year we will have more ticks than crosses against them!

Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Martin Greaves on December 24, 2014, 16:22:00 pm
Pete what fuel you using.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on December 24, 2014, 17:05:33 pm
Hi Martin,

Shell V power for the street, but Sunoco 260GT Plus for racing.

Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: andy198712 on December 24, 2014, 18:39:04 pm
Hi Nicholas, as you suggest much tea will need to be consumed before this car can turn a wheel in anger next year!

Dive!dive!, always happy to see another 1776cc being tinkered with good luck with the mapping I've had my first lessons now and clearly have a lot to learn!

Andy, we are certainly trying to maximise things now and that was what this engine project and all the car modifications over the last couple of years have been all about. 2015 will be the first year when it is all in the car so as I said before track time is what is needed now to get it all sorted out and see if we can get it to all work together.

The main focus has been on the valve train because this is the first problem we had to solve, but you are right to question the bearings crank and case as they are clearly all potential problem areas. This is part of the reason for the steel plates on the case to help with rigidity and reduce the flex. The crank is a billet EN30B number which is much lighter than some of the larger cranks which are common to keep the loads down. It also has a light piston, pin, ring pack and rods with a view to keeping the loads on the crank, bearings and case to what we believe are acceptable levels. If you look back at the calc's Johannes quotes when building the 1603 mouse you will see the difference the light parts make and we have the short stroke crank on our side too. 

I think the dry sump oil system is a big improvement in this engine over the old wet sump I have been running in my engines previously. I had been avoiding it as I was not convinced all the extra weight and complication was worth it on performance grounds, but what swung it for me this time was a reliable better quality oil supply. In the old 1795 I was struggling with rod bearings and I believe this was down to either oil starvation or poor quality (aerated) oil at the pickup tube. Consequently the dry sump system became an easy choice and any small performance gain there may be is also an advantage. I appreciate the 21mm supply pump sounds very small to many, but I have heard from several people that I respect who have first hand experience with them and they have found them to be fine in applications which are actually likely to be more onerous than mine. 

There are many unproven things in this engine, but hopefully this time next year we will have more ticks than crosses against them!

Peter

Sounds extremely well thought out! i forgot about the steel plates (was that your post id seen them in?) sounds like a  fully tricked out bottom end!
I've not heard anything bad about the CB pumps from people who have actually used them. Cant wait to see how you get on, i'm sure any issues if any, you'll be able to over come.
Whats you thoughts on rebuild periods in terms of run time?
as has been said, is this some kind of record?

Best of luck!  8)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Martin Greaves on December 24, 2014, 21:03:30 pm
Hi Martin,

Shell V power for the street, but Sunoco 260GT Plus for racing.

Peter

That what I thought you was going to stay with and I know it's a street car. But what about upping the CR and running Methanol at a later date now you have FI.


Title: Re:
Post by: volkskris on December 25, 2014, 10:32:29 am
Incredible work. I would love to see the torque curve of this engine, it wouldn't surprise me if it was wider then you would expect from a screamer like this . :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: spanners on December 25, 2014, 11:27:39 am
Gears are the key with a screamer, no old fashioned four speeder would cut it,  but Peter has it covered already. ;)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Type1/DVK on December 25, 2014, 12:32:58 pm
Wow, thanks for the info! very nice figures!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: dive!dive! on December 25, 2014, 13:22:55 pm
Sitting here smiling as I keep forgetting Pete's car is used on the street..... I can just imagine pulling to 10k on some of the roads where I live....bonkers, just bonkers. And, I thought I was done with mine, but now I realise a NEED a hewland.......
Season greetings,
Steve


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: JS on December 25, 2014, 13:45:57 pm
Congratulations on the awesome achievement Pete, it is well deserved!  :)

J.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: spanners on December 26, 2014, 16:38:41 pm
but now I realise a NEED a hewland.......Steve

Quaife also have a suitable sequencial transaxle available, they are very accommodating, and will provide the ratios you specify.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Lee.C on December 26, 2014, 20:45:58 pm
You should come a Race @ SCC Pete.......

I am sure there are a few "Northern" racers who will want a chat  ;) :)

http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,23865.0.html


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on December 26, 2014, 22:51:34 pm
No methanol for me Martin. Its a compromised position to run race gas at all, but a necessary evil in this case. Racing on pump gas might be possible, but a detonation risk not worth taking with what I have invested in this engine. It may be less relevant with this cam but something I've justified as a sensible compromise. The beauty is there is no messing around swapping fuels draining etc as they can mix, so I can just top up with race fuel at the track and top up with pump gas for the drive home.

Volkschris, I have some more video footage which will give you some idea of the torque curve, which I will try and post at some point. As you say its surprisingly strong for the little screamer. It certainly gives some good area under the curve in the critical rpm operating window for the racing bit anyway. Having not driven it on the street yet I'm not sure how it will be, but from what I've seen on the dyno it looks smooth but aggressive. I should be able to post some roll on roll off throttle runs when warming the engine before a pull to demonstrate if I can get it on Youtube.

Spanners as you say the 6 speed was a necessary part of the master plan. Interesting that Quaife make a suitable box too, I was not aware not that I have any plans to change now! How are the output shaft / axel centreline relative to VW box? I did have to move the Hewland box forward and down a little to keep the engine in the stock location. Nothing drastic though I think 18mm forward and 13mm down ring a bell.

Thanks again for the props I can feel the warmth in the garage already! J perhaps we'll see you at DDD, would be good to be at the track together with our cars one day!

Lee, nice thought but as you know its a hell of a long way Time away from home is hard to come by these days so any travel abroad will be restricted to DDD in 2015 if all goes to plan.

Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: peejke on February 03, 2015, 13:09:19 pm
I drove my '57 single cab to DDD in 2014 (240 km), took of the belt , and drove a 17.93 sec. quarter mile . This running a 1776 with berg counterweight crank , cb heads , dual 40 IDF , and so on.
If I look at the busses with attitude site, I guess it's the bus with the smallest engine yet to get under the 18sec mark. Pretty happy with this , cause I drive it all over Europe for more then 5 years now.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: pWolf on March 09, 2015, 21:13:39 pm
Such an inspiration this thread! Thank you guys! :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: pWolf on March 14, 2015, 18:54:38 pm
Found this little devil on Facebook !

1400 CC 153 bhp

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152682595155969


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: leec on March 14, 2015, 19:03:24 pm
Interesting, would love to know more about that.

I thought the rolling road video was a little weird, why leave it at full throttle for a long period of time?
Most I have seen hit peak revs then let off?
Lee


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: wph on March 14, 2015, 21:30:52 pm
Interesting, would love to know more about that.

I thought the rolling road video was a little weird, why leave it at full throttle for a long period of time?
Most I have seen hit peak revs then let off?
Lee

Dyno looks like to be a real old skool, it may have manual load control thus the prolonged "pull"
on high revs to stabilise the readings on the meters. I have used a setup like that somewhere
around 1990 while in technical school, it was a really old even back then  :)   


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: WPS on March 16, 2015, 16:57:52 pm
This engine is something I've been building for Drew Pritchard of Salvage Hunters 'fame' since the begining of the year to race at Goodwood 73rd Members Meeting with the HRDC in the Touring Greats class.
It's 1405cc (69x80.5) using genuine VW crank/case and 1300 twinport heads along with some bored out early 77mm cylinders with some aftermarket Mahle pistons.
We made 151 'steady' HP@6400rpm on the 'old school' rollers.....it peaked at 154 but the numbers don't really matter as long as it's improving with the adjustments we're doing and the A/F ratio is safe etc.....the extended periods are to stabilise the readings and simulate the straights on a circuit i.e. full throttle for 5-10 seconds at max revs (the 'Cogbox' is pretty close to make the most of everything).....it's to check the fuel supply 'works'......that video is at approx.5k....it sounds better at 7 :-) but then doesn't everything?
The car ran great on the test day at Goodwood last friday and will be driven by ex BTCC champion Robb Gravett at this weekends event.....it's been many years since a VW competed at Goodwood (50 odd I think?) so it'll be good to see how it compares to the competition......should be fun!! :-)

Ian





























Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: leec on March 16, 2015, 18:13:26 pm
Thanks for the info Ian. Another fantastic looking engine too!
Lee


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: pWolf on March 17, 2015, 23:30:22 pm
Thanks for Info ! Fantastic!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Pas on March 21, 2015, 13:20:13 pm
Quote
from WPS

The car ran great on the test day at Goodwood last friday and will be driven by ex BTCC champion Robb Gravett at this weekends event.....it's been many years since a VW competed at Goodwood (50 odd I think?) so it'll be good to see how it compares to the competition.
Quote
Watched it online today, looking good so far, keeping up with the big boys!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Iryanu on March 29, 2015, 10:12:09 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC_XCzuAvZ4

 8)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Rocket Ron on April 20, 2015, 08:42:23 am
The force is strong with this thread

Very cool  8)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Rocket Ron on April 25, 2015, 08:56:33 am
The engine is sitting in the engine stand now, will run in cam, and comment the pictures later.

(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/33.jpg)
The cylinders are about 20mm shorter than std length.
(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/34.jpg)
The std 85,5mm pistons has a weight of 568g the JE 86mm weights only 388g, 180g lighter.

(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/35.jpg)
The pushrods are 254mm long, it is not unusuall to have pushrods between 275-285mm in stroker engines.
(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/36.jpg)
"Mouse Motor" waiting for cam brake in, only with the outer valvespring, the dual OTEVA 75 springs has 165lbs in the seat and 370lbs at 15,5mm lift.The weight of the spring is only 64g.
(http://www.vwnorge.no/JHU/project/jpm/37.jpg)
"Beetlbug" the header is tuned to 8000rpm as the rest of the engine, the #2 and #4 tubes will be too long if I place them in the ordonary style.


Johannes

I know these Pistons are custom bore size but is the pin height and skirt length the same a stroker "b" Pistons?

Regards Ron



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Torben Alstrup on April 25, 2015, 11:20:22 am
I - think - I remember that.
No, they are much shorter. 28mm IIR

T


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Rocket Ron on April 25, 2015, 14:12:12 pm
I - think - I remember that.
No, they are much shorter. 28mm IIR

T

Thanks for the reply


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on May 03, 2015, 21:00:16 pm
So here it is through a muffler we mocked up

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/2TWe0DaRkgU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

https://youtu.be/2TWe0DaRkgU

Turn up the volume and enjoy!

Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: JS on May 04, 2015, 17:09:46 pm
So here it is through a muffler we mocked up

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/2TWe0DaRkgU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

https://youtu.be/2TWe0DaRkgU

Turn up the volume and enjoy!

Peter

Jesus!!  ;D :D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Zach Gomulka on May 04, 2015, 17:39:55 pm
So here it is through a muffler we mocked up

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/2TWe0DaRkgU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

https://youtu.be/2TWe0DaRkgU

Turn up the volume and enjoy!

Peter

Jesus!!  ;D :D

You said it, man.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on May 23, 2015, 22:26:28 pm
As always with me there has been a longer than expected break between race reports, but I finally got the car where it needed to be to be able to run it down the track this weekend at UKDD. This is a great event for the racers no frills just racing and breakfast and a nice bunch of people to go racing with. So the first thankyou goes to the UKDD team for organising a great event.

As ever a number of late nights were required to get the car ready the week before, but I fired the car up on Friday morning on the drive much to our neighbours delight to check all was well and it started on the button. No leaks and it all sounded good. So I loaded up and dragged the car round to Dave Dining who had offered to give me a lift to the track in his lorry. Dave wasnít racing which was not great for him but it was for me as it meant I didnít need to sleep in a tent or the car.

So after the usual rubbish Friday traffic on the M25 we got there and set up with the help fo Alex, Lee and Dave. I ran the car up again and drove it round the pits to check the clutch and gears were all where they were meant to be and all was well. So we just chilled out for the night ready for the day ahead

Saturday morning was a bit windy, but the sun was out and it was dry. I fired the car up in the morning to get some heat into it but noticed a leak from the fuel regulator which I soon fixed. So we went down to the start line for the first run down the track in what had been a long while. The problem was when we got there the car had other ideas as it would only run for a short period of time then stall. It turned out that if I had thought about it I would have realised my fuel leak issue was more than just a fuel leak. The leak was actually from what should have been the dry side of the diaphragm in the regulator which my want to race my car brain had not noticed at the time. Fortunately Dave had his brain in gear and pointed it out. So what was happening was that the air side of the diaphragm was filling with fuel that would not compress so the fuel pressure had no release so ran to 125 psi that the pump can pump too. This meant the engine saw much more fuel than it wanted and it flooded and stalled once the pressure built up.

This is where Michael (Tiki Madness) came to my rescue. He was good enough to lend me his fuel pressure regulator (thanks again Michael) which he had to take off his own car. So I lashed it on my car fired it up and set the fuel pressure and we were all good again and ready to run.

Iím sure all you races know how much better it feels to have the first run out of the way, but I really am hopeless until I have a run under my belt. After  the first pass I can actually concentrate far better on what Iím meant to be doing it sounds stupid but that is just the way it works for me.

What I havenít mentioned is that now the engine is all controlled via the ECU and the laptop had decided to throw its rattle out of the pram I was working completely blind. Typically laptop that had been fine all winter but decided to have a moment on Friday night and basically not allow me to open the engine management program. This meant I could not set up any of the parameters I had hoped to this weekend.

Needless to say I took a reasonable amount of stick about this from the IDA magneto brigade.

No matter how nicely I spoke to the laptop it was not having any of it. Needless to say this was not at all ideal given the whole idea of the weekend was to set all this stuff up, but it was where I was so I just decided to get some time in the car with a view to getting the hang of driving it again.

I have never used a rev counter or shift light for racing in the past which did help a bit with the driving, but when I was running a regular 4 speed box where there was a bit more time between shifts. When I first ran the 6 speed a couple of years ago I decided I would fit a shift light given there is less time between the shifts to get a feel of where you are. Also with the higher rev range of the new engine I thought it may be more difficult to judge.

So off I went with no rev counter or shift light for a first stab at a run.

On this first run I decided to lift with the shifts too, just to get back into it. This resulted in a 12.16 @ 115mph which was a good start and the car looked and felt fine but for a small oil leak from the dipstick. So once it cooled down I went again and flat shifted this time. The 60ft was rubbish but an 11.79 at 118mph I was pleased with. This was a new mph record for me into what was a decent headwind. What was not so nice was that I shut off to quickly through the top end and the car had a big move to the right. I was in the left lane so moved over towards the centre line. Ian was in the right lane and was moving to the left. I understand from those on the start line that it looked quite close, but actually it was fine for Ian and I.

The last run of the day was again a poor 60ft but an 11.11@111mph. The low mph in this case was because the car moved a bit into 6th gear (might have been wind as there was quite a cross wind) so I just lifted to calm it down. The 11.11 with a poor start and a shut off clearly showed some potential for the following day though and was a positive end to the day.

This combination is all about a 10 so the fact it was a new PB for me almost passed me by at the time, but it pointed towards the potential of better things to come.

That said I've been in this sort of position before and I have found itís so easy to overdrive the car on the next run, when actually you need to relax, but I find that easier to say than do!

So Sunday morning came round and I fueled up with tea and bacon rolls and headed down to the start again with a bit less tire pressure in a hope of finding a bit more traction. I did a quick scrub of the tires and the track felt good. Went up to the line but spun the tires badly again. Still an 11.24 was a good start to the day and I managed 119mph so another mph pb. I did much the same for the next run with a slightly better 60ft and managed a 11.19 again at 119mph.

I had decided early on in the weekend that I was not going to do burnouts. This was principally as last time out with the 1795 I had some solid 60fts with just a quick scrub of the tires so I figured that would be good enough for a first time out with the new motor.

What I had not factored in was the clutch. The clutch in the 1795 was always marginal so I stepped up a notch with the new set up which was clearly proving to be up to the job as I had had no noticeable slip or the usual smell of clutch that accompanied the car when I returned to the pits which was common with old set up. This was a positive thing but as with most things when you change one thing it effects another, which I think is exactly what happened. The new clutch was hitting harder and was spinning the tires. So having said to myself that I was not going to do a burnout I decided that I would.

I say I decided, but it was decided for me as the unanimous opinion of those who we watching the car for me on the start line was that they were fed up seeing me spin the tires, so it was timeÖ..

So I did a small burn out and sure enough it left the line better although still not perfect by any stretch. The car then ran clean for the rest of the run and sailed out the top end with no fuss. I came back round parked up and hoped out to see I that I had a collection of leaking pushrod tubes on the 1 and 2 side of the motor. So was initially thinking thatís not good, but then a guy (sorry I don't know who you were if you read this) came up to me and said I had just run 10.9* which needless to say lightened the annoyance of the pushrod tubes somewhat! At this point I was busting to see the timing ticket to make sure it was me, but then Ian rocked up as he ran in the pair after me then Dave Alex and Lee with the timing ticket and it was an all-round knees up!

Now without wanting to sound un grateful this is not the 10 I am after in the master plan as I did not drive the car to the track and its not currently road legal, but needless to say it was a major step in the right direction and a great achievement.

Having calmed down, the obvious thing to want to do is go again and back it up. Unfortunately this was not meant to be as the pushrod tubes were not happy bunnies and were leaking enough oil after the burnout for the start line crew to shut me down which is fair enough as no one wants to be responsible for oiling the track.

So that was it for the weekend. It was a big step for me and the car with all the odds stacked against a 10 it did it.

There is now a long list of jobs to attend to before I get the car to the track again, but it has proved to be reliable this weekend at least. This was always going to be the first milestone and understandably there have been doubters and I'm not saying it's the ultimate test of reliability, but this last weekend its taken a big step in the right direction to proving it's self. The reality it could have done no more Tha it has done.

I now need to check all is well in general and sort my 1 and 2 side pushrods which in some cases look to be hitting the pushrod tubes and I think that is what is causing them to leak. I have a plan B which I hope to sort out when I'm back from our family holiday next week.

I'm also sorting an engine tray so that if plan B does not solve the problem I'm not going to oil the track.

I've got the bits to fix the fuel pressure regulator and some more pushrod tubes to try so fingers crossed I can get the car race ready for Volkslife show at SCR on the 6th 7th June.

That just leaves the thankyou's and there are lots of people that have helped me and the car get to this point. Far to many to list here without it sounding like an Oscar winning acceptance speech, but clearly Ian and Peter have been in this with me from the very beginning and deserve special thanks along with countless others who have played their part in years gone by and more recently.

I have to finish with a special thanks to Johannes as this would not have happened without him.

He is a man with a real passion for these unlikely little performance engines. The level of performance he has managed to achieve with this and many other engines before it will I'm sure make his name known for years to come like some of the great names from the past in our sport.

His talents and experience are not just limited ACVW's and its perhaps this more rounded knowledge and wide ranging experience with anything from single cylinder MX engines to Koenigsegg's that gives him such a depth of skill and understanding.

Best of all though, amongst all the big ideas, serious thinking and hard work he is a very genuine and humble guy, which makes the long trips to Sweden a whole lot easier to make.

So now I need to get after my driving it to and from the track 10 which is the next big challenge, well that and proving that 10.97 was not a fluke!

Peter

 


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Elnef on May 24, 2015, 06:50:01 am
Great report thanks ;)
congrats with the 10sek  :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: dive!dive! on May 24, 2015, 10:35:45 am
Just what I needed on a Sunday morning while I drink my coffee! Awesome stuff. Driving something like this on the street (when you get there...) will be terrifying.... :-) I took Mrs Dive!Dive! for her first spin in my 1776 since the headwork and EFI install yesterday, pulled onto an straightish road and gave it some in 2nd/3rd, I shut it off well before I would have if it was just me, looked over and she was gripping the sides of the seat and just said, 'that's enough now, lets go home'....what fun!


Cheers
Steve


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on May 26, 2015, 20:37:44 pm
Steve, you are right the street driving is the big thing I miss, I've not done enough of it over recent years and I don't expect to do much to improve that stat this year as the list of to do jobs is getting longer[color=][/color] not shorter but I hope my plans for 2016 see the car back were it belongs.

My wife has not been in the car since it had the type IV in it she hated it then and its difficult to see how I have improved the car to her liking in that time but you never know perhaps it was just the type IV she didn't like all along and she might love it now!?

P


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Neil Davies on May 26, 2015, 21:10:21 pm
Interesting what you say about your wife hating the car - mine says that the roll cage freaks her out with my car! She's perfectly happy driving my other beetle so who knows,  maybe the cage is just a reminder that things can go wrong?
Hope to see you at some point this season Peter, and well done again on the 10!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: dangerous on May 26, 2015, 22:22:15 pm
My wife has not been in the car since it had the type IV in it she hated it then.
Perhaps it was just the type IV she didn't like all along and she might love it now!?


 :D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Type1/DVK on May 29, 2015, 19:43:42 pm
Had my ''mouse motor'' on the dyno this week:  1776cc weekend warrior > 141hp - 171nm 

turn down your volume  ??? :o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNk-9S3ukF0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNk-9S3ukF0)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlLdUhjMnR4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlLdUhjMnR4)

Just a fun cruiser and for a few drag's here and there... in somewhat sleeper look  :D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: dive!dive! on May 29, 2015, 20:33:37 pm
My wife has not been in the car since it had the type IV in it she hated it then.
Perhaps it was just the type IV she didn't like all along and she might love it now!?


 :D

Indeed!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: dive!dive! on May 29, 2015, 20:37:57 pm
Had my ''mouse motor'' on the dyno this week:  1776cc weekend warrior > 141hp - 171nm 

turn down your volume  ??? :o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNk-9S3ukF0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNk-9S3ukF0)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlLdUhjMnR4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlLdUhjMnR4)

Just a fun cruiser and for a few drag's here and there... in somewhat sleeper look  :D

Nice! I see the 48's but what about heads and cam ?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Type1/DVK on May 29, 2015, 21:34:26 pm
specs in the discription vid.

w130 and 044 heads on 10.5 CR


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: dive!dive! on May 29, 2015, 21:53:23 pm
specs in the discription vid.

w130 and 044 heads on 10.5 CR

Ah, yes, missed that!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Pas on May 30, 2015, 23:34:59 pm
Great write up on "The mouse that roared" as usual Pete  :)

Hopefully you get sorted for Volkslife and I will see you there for some more 10 second action!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on June 14, 2015, 21:28:43 pm
Race 2 2015

Having organised fixes to most of the problems I had last time out I set out for the track with some optimism that I could start setting up the ecu things I was meant to be doing at UKDD. Once again it was all a bit last minute, but basically the car was ready.

It was a lovely day for a drive to the track on Friday, which made the fact that I was towing the car and not driving it all the more frustrating.

We arrived in good time though and thanks to help from Alex with the tent for the car we got set up and ready for the morning. It was windy Friday night so it was a strap everything down job before we turned in, hoping that it would all be there in the morning!

Fortunately it was all there in the morning and it was clear that there was a serious tail wind and I was all excited about making a good start to the weekend.

Sadly for me I thought I would just have a go at adjusting the clutch a little in the fire up road and I can't tell you how much I regret that now! That small thought resulted in me missing the whole of Saturdays running!

Back in the pits it became clear that there was a problem with the clutch master cylinder. Fortunately Alex remembered that Dave Dinning had a spare cylinder at home and a few phone calls later Alex and I were on the 5 hour round trip to go and rob the parts we needed to fix it. Dave had all the bits ready and with a bit of mix and match we had what looked like a working cylinder again.

Back at the track we got the car back together ran it up and found some gears, all was not quite what it should have been, but it was basically working.

So back to the fire up road and no danger of a last minute clutch adjustment this time!

I did a quick burnout which resulted in no clutch again! So I was about to be pushed back but a peddle appeared again after a few pumps so I fired it up staged and went. It was all a bit manic, but it got to the end of the track. As it turned out it was just as well that I didn't need the clutch to change gear once on the move as by the time I was at the top of the track the  clutch had gone again!

The clutch re appeared again of sorts and with some more bleeding and adjustment back in the pits I had recovered a reasonable peddle again.

I did two other runs all without burnouts (to avoid the clutch drama) and basically hobbled my way through the rest of the day.

All runs had poor 60ft times but were respectable 11.1* with a bit more mph than at UKDD at between 120-121mph. The mph increase over the last time out was due to the lack of headwind I suspect.So this looks like a more realistic mph as any wind was across the track on Sunday, but it was a much calmer day than Saturday generally.

The car was on the rev limiter through the line at this speed so I have a bit to think about in this regard, but gear ratio changes will be a winter job, so the plan is to concentrate on getting the car off the line more consistently and quickly now.

Towing the car home on Sunday night was painful as it was a really nice evening for a drive through the Cotswolds again. It certainly looks like it will be next year before the car is on the road again now given its the middle of the year already and the to do list appears to be getting longer not shorter!

Having got the car home I took the motor out and found the clutch certainly was warn which hopefully was part of the problem, but there is still a hydraulic issue to resolve, which I hope to get on to this week.

The good news is that the oil looked good when the motor came out and there was very little debris in the filter. I don't want to temp fate, but the oil system looks to be coping with the abuse at the track and the pressure from the little pump is really stable so I'm gaining a some confidence that its up to the job.

Next outing is Dragstalgia in July, by which time I hope to have a clutch, and if all goes to plan one I can adjust too!

[attachment=1]

Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: spanners on June 15, 2015, 16:49:30 pm
Hi Peter, firstly, brilliant acheivement, well done and also a victory for original thinking.
 I've had various problems with hydro clutch systems, one seems close to as you described your problem, mine got worse with heat build up till I had to bang the gears through,  after many wasted hours down blind alleys, i found all it needed was a larger bore supply line, the often used brake line sized 3/16"  pipe is enadequate, it just couldn't shift enough fluid at the speed I needed it too, once I upped the supply line tube size, all the grief went away with the added bonus of less pedal pressure, might be worth a look in that area.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on August 07, 2015, 09:06:30 am
Hi Spanners,
Thanks for the tip about the hose bore size it might yet come to that, but I'm hopeful that I have found a problem which was causing the issue. I'm sure you are right in what you have said, but the frustration for me has been the fact that its been fine both for racing and street driving up until this point and I had literally not changed anything.

Having had the hydraulic side of the system apart at home I suspect there was a combination of events which caused the problem in the first place which was then compounded with some miss diagnosis and hastily put together fixes at the track.
The initial problem was clearly a seal failure and it was never going to work with a big hole in it! This may or may not have been caused by the clutch valve tampering on my part, but I've a feeling it was. My theory is that the valve will naturally create greater pressure at the master cylinder as the valve is closed and this I suspect forced the seal out into the bore of the master cylinder. The large hole which the seal is now modeling is a very clean cut circle which happens to coincide with the supply holes in the cylinder from the reservoir. As it happens there were a number of chunks of rubber from the seal in the fluid where these sharp edges of the holes had been taking chunks of the seal off as it passes by. Looking at the seal this must have been happening for some time.
The seal I nabbed from Dave was a slightly different design but was for the same size bore cylinder. It took a certain amount of part swapping to get it working but it did work. I remember thinking it felt a bit sticky at the time but at that point I just thought it works just strap it back on the car and there is a chance to race on Sunday.
That is exactly what I did but in my haste and my brain telling me I wanted it to work I ignored a couple of signs which should have triggered some alarm bells.
Firstly we struggled to bleed the clutch I just put this down to it having been troublesome before and then there was the inconsistent peddle. This was the opposite to what you might imagine in that it got worse with pumping. I was fairly confident that there was no air in the system at this point.
Leeping forward now to when the car was at home I noticed the peddle was sitting down a little and had some more mechanical free play. Its at this point where my brain starts to piece things together in the calm of the garage. I went to look at the master cylinder in the tunnel (its one of the SACO in tunnel kits), and noticed the cotta pin was not quite back in the hook of the peddle shaft which normally has the eye of the clutch cable over it. Its not the best of designs this but in fairness to SACO it does work and it would make the kit a lot more expensive if they were to supply a new peddle shaft with a nice eye for the cotta pin. I might well modify mine at some point now though.
Having discovered this I took a closer look with the peddle going through its travel and sure enough the piston in the cylinder was not returning fully so it could not grab a full gulp of fluid before it went forward again hence it getting worse with successive pumps of the peddle.
So that is my theory.
The master cylinder rebuild kit I ordered from SACO arrived so I tried it with the right seals to see if I was right.
I also needed to round the edges of the reservoir supply holes in the cylinder so as not to pick up the seal again which is easier said than done given how far down an 19mm diameter hole they are. I got a small Dremmel ball end bit on the end of a pick set handle and rounded the edges of the holes in a hope that the seal would not pick up this time.
Incidentally I would not want this to put you off buying this kit from SACO as I think overall its a decent product. But do take care with the seals as there is an issue there with mine although this may be a one off or an earlier design fault that they have since sorted as I've had mine for some time.
I don't have one to hand but I was wondering how sharp the edges of the fluid supply holes are on a regular master cylinder?
I did what I could to adjust the hook and cotta pin to best effect and to prevent anything from binding, greased it all and put it back together. The clutch bleed fine and I had a decent enough peddle again.
I also decided to change the clutch pressure plate and centre disc for a steel plate and black magic disc so I could manage the clutch better on the start line whilst I had it in bits.
This is where I made another error as I did not appreciate there was a small, but important difference in the position of the clutch fingers on the pressure plate which meant the slave cylinder was traveling just a little further than it was before.
Once I'd sorted a few other jobs I was all set for Dragstalgia, or so I thought.

Race 3 2015

It was another great day for the drive to the track which once again made it particularly irritating that I was not driving the car to the track.
First of all its worth saying what a good race event this is. There is a great mix of cars and bikes to look at on the track and the car park particularly if you are of a certain age as I am!
Once set up the track was open so I went down for a first run. I ran this weekend on BRM's given its a nostalgia event which also meant running on street tires (M&H dots) which is my intention now for the rest of the year. The plan being that I wanted to see what traction would be like relative to the new clutch, motor etc. as part of the master plan for the 10 second run I really want.
So the first run was a very solid 11.2 @116mph the mph was down again due to a strong headwind I think, but that's the best run ever for the car on street tires so it was a promising start.
The problem was it went down hill from there. When I got back to the pits I decided to try and adjust the clutch and guess what it all went wrong again and I was left with no peddle!
After a bit of head scratching and given the time Alex took me on a bit of a shopping trip in the local town to see if we could find another master cylinder seal before the shops closed as it felt just the same as it did the last time out when it destroyed the seal.
As it turned out we couldn't get a seal but Richie was coming to the track the next day and thought he had some spares. So that night I took the master cylinder out to be ready for the morning and to my surprise the seal was fine. Having realised there were no visible leaks anywhere else it meant the only other non visible place was the slave cylinder in the bell housing. As it turned out if I had looked in the engine drip tray earlier I would have realised it was this as the pad was full of hydraulic fluid which is another lesson learnt.
If I had not fitted an engine tray I would have seen a puddle of hydraulic fluid on the floor earlier and saved a load of time, but least we'd found the leak.
The gearbox has an internal slave cylinder not the external one you usually see that operates the standard arm so it was an engine out job to fix.
I put the master cylinder back together and back in the car Friday night and got up early Saturday morning and took the motor out and sure enough the seal on the release bearing had blown. It was clear that this was sure to the over travel of the bearing (back to the finger positions on the new clutch setup!).
Fortunately I had a spare release bearing and seal so once everything was cleaned and back together this just left the over travel of the bearing but this was easily fixed as I had a spare new clutch so just robbed the early ring to gain 10mm. the question then was if the 10mm would be to much!
Once it was back together we bled the clutch which seems to have been my favorite past time of late and we had a clutch again.
Annoyingly I missed the first run of the morning by no more than 10-15 minutes but at least I was all set again for round 2.
This next run was 11.5 or there about, but resulted in no clutch peddle at the end of the track.
Back in the pits it was clear that I was still leaking fluid as the reservoir level had dropped. I decided at this point that as the tray was catching the fluid and the clutch was not slipping to have another run just to have a bit of fun. This resulted in another 11.5*, but the same clutch issue.
I nearly went home that evening to use the time on Sunday to get it apart to have a better look in the calm of the garage, but decided to stay for the Saturday social and another run in the morning.
No surprise that the clutch did not magically fix it's self overnight, so there was no surprise no clutch after the mornings run.
At this point I decided to pack up and go home and get the car apart to see what was wrong.
The only other positive to take from the weekend was that the car has enough clutch and tire in principal which had been a problem historically so some positive progress made as well as the best street tire time for the car.
Once home I checked for leaks elsewhere but found nothing so took the motor out and to my surprise there was no fluid in the bell housing. This was not good news as it meant there must be an internal leak in the gearbox!
Sure enough I drained the gearbox oil which was contaminated with hydraulic fluid. Needless to say this is not good and I don't know what damage this has or hasn't done as I only discovered this late one evening before going on our 2 week family summer holiday so this is where I am today.
When I'm back next week I'll get the box out and assess the damage. I hope what ever there is its not to drastic as I really want to get to DDD this year having missed it last year.
Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Olaf A./DFL on August 07, 2015, 09:52:52 am
Thanks for your really cool reports! Love to read them and fingers crossed you can fix the problem and come to DDD!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: spanners on August 07, 2015, 18:20:31 pm
Nice one Pete, at least you are onto the real fault, it's easy to lose a whole season fault finding, ask McLaren Honda!! Just a thought regarding the black magic disc, disc thickness may be factor in your problem, this as you know governs were the diaghfragm fingers sit he aight wise in relation to the release bearing, a very slightly thicker disc will lower the finger height a considerable amount and increase the needed operating stroke of the two cylinders, I'm sure the BM discs come up thicker than other discs, may be an area to explore regarding over stroking the system,? Good luck with it anyway.
On a lighter note, you must also have considerably more self control than I have tho lol! , for me my savour was going trailer born with the original road legal spec of the first BBT cars, they encouraged ' spirited driving' shall we say, especially in the rain, so it would have only been a matter of time before my licence got posted away! The door handle rubbing  and long haul events made me buy a trailer, trailer towing has its own set of problems anyway, like the nut who came up the M1 hard shoulder and then brake tested me big time!!  It was way back in mileneum year, but may have been an early crash for cash job, I had room to miss him luckily, and he scarpered tout suit.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: wph on August 07, 2015, 20:40:16 pm
Clutch plate fingers whipping up the fluid to foam has been an OEM problem in "new" cars too, different BM plate
thicknesses will not help it either. It doesn't create a leak always but you will loose the "pedal" .Your slave cylinder
is inside the bel housing, correct ?

Pekka     


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on August 07, 2015, 22:08:10 pm
Hi Olaf, I will be doing my best to be at DDD, fingers crossed its not to nasty once I get the box in bits.

Spanners, I have some options with disc thickness as they do come in different thicknesses but, I also have the option of machining up some varying thickness collars based on the early style clutch ring so I hope I have enough adjustment now I know what I'm looking for. On the lighter note point I'm OK just cruising around particularly with the 145's up front and the M&H's out back as its not best suited tire combo for spirited driving when corners are concerned. Its fine for a quick blast to shock the local fwd boys at the stop lights, but it really is pretty quick these days and traffic comes up fast when you give it the big one. My point about wanting to drive to the track and back is just a personal goal based on no sensible logic, but I call I a street car and to me street cars need to be driven to the track and on the street in general for fun. The race car only thing this year has been painful as there is so little seat time drag racing its not so bad for you roundy roundy guys at least you get more time in the car. Longer term I have plans for the car to go round corners and then spirited driving on the road with some proper tires might test my self control a bit more than it does currently!

Pekka, I have heard of problems with the bearings and seals struggling with heat and AP make a bearing and seal suitable for high temps which is on mt shopping list just to remove another variable. That said I'm not this is the problem I have now. The housing that I made for the bearing to run in is in two parts to enable me to fit it in the gearbox and given its design it is also sealed to prevent fluid escaping into the gearbox as part of the slave cylinder is internal to gearbox. This is the seal which I think has failed in this case but this is just a guess at this point until I get it apart. Perhaps the fluid is struggling but I'm not convinced as I can't see its getting so hot as we are struggling to get heat into the gearbox rather than trying to loose it, but I'll keep it in mind!

I'll report back once its in bits, but thanks for the comments and advice.

Peter



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: spanners on August 08, 2015, 09:30:44 am
Morning Pete, forget the corners mate, whole new ball game and it NEVER stops on development, another thread needed for that one  ::) , but good on yer for the differing spacer collar width ideas, one other thing springs to mind on the Hewland, is the clutch housing well vented? Clutch cooling is a biggie with the hydro release bearing I would emagine, more so than the side slung pull type cylinder type, I had to run ducting to my bell venting after I under panelled the trans and motor as oil and coolant temp increased, a few naca ducts normalised that ok, those high temp seals mentioned can only help you.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: andy198712 on August 08, 2015, 14:53:30 pm
Did you say you still have a clutch arm on there? Can you not convert to the external slaves?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: spanners on August 09, 2015, 08:55:26 am
Re read things now and it's just sunk in the fluids not overheating so it's not bell airflow and venting, Andy, it's a Hewland trans, no VW clutch levers.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on August 12, 2015, 11:29:22 am
As suggested there is no external clutch arm, so no option there.

I have also got holes in the bell housing to help with the heat 3 x 20mm on each side.

Its difficult to imagine that its a heat problem particularly when you consider the context in which its being used as I have literally started the car driven it straight to the start line and had no peddle at the end of the track after just one use of the clutch off the start line.

The question now is what is this new issue with the gearbox hydraulic seal issue, but hopefully all will become clear once its in bits.

Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: whirligig on August 12, 2015, 13:01:47 pm
now I don't know , what a Hewland gearbox concentric cyl looks like or how its bolted in BUT had a prob with a customers saab when we fitted a new clutch. this was a fair few years ago , the pattern cyl (AP made in India) was machined 1thou to big where it sat in a recess in the bell housing, we tried 3 and they were all the same!!!!!! This allowed the back plate of the cyl to pop out,just a thought.Also you do need a bigger dia pipe to the slave with that volume of fluid moving and the small pipe will increase the pressure in the master cyl.imo.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: spanners on August 12, 2015, 14:49:23 pm
I wonder if the seal is too narrow, I seem to recall from the mists of time the Oem seals are very deep, I've not seen one lately as I don't fit seal kits these days,  just complete cylinders, a narrow seal would have a higher chance of entering the cylinder ports and tearing itself off a chunk?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: 1946vw on August 24, 2015, 17:51:26 pm
Had a great weekend when 8.89 143 in the G/D 1700cc


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: dangerous on August 24, 2015, 21:55:13 pm
Sweet Brian! What does it weigh?
As in, what is the lbs/ci for G/D?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: 1946vw on August 25, 2015, 23:53:23 pm
8.4


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: modnrod on August 26, 2015, 04:16:59 am
Had a great weekend when 8.89 143 in the G/D 1700cc

 :o
Looks like my mates 8.60 @ 160+ 1640cc Suzuki Katana has competition then............
 8)

Any vids or sound clips?
Please?
 ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on August 28, 2015, 20:45:04 pm
Small up date as I've had little time to work on the car since returning from our family holiday and trying to catch up at work then getting my bag nicked with my wallet and keys in it last week, with all the time consuming drama that involves but I have got a gearbox back in one bit!
As expected it was the static seal in the clutch housing which had blown. It was a strange looking failure as the circular seal had almost split along its length. The seal felt fine and had not degraded and was not out of shape as I had expected so it was not entirely clear how or why it failed. Suffice to say it now has a new seal and is back together and ready to go back in the car.
I've also made some changes to the clutch valve activation in a hope that it  helps the master cylinder cope better and I have more mechanical adjustment options too.
I'm away again this weekend, but hope to get the box back in the car next week so all being well should be on target for DDD assuming the clutch behaves itself!
Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Peter Shattock on September 23, 2015, 14:08:05 pm
Once again with another year flying by this is the final race report from me for a while, but I'm glad to be writing it as DDD if you are into ACVW's and drag racing is a must do event in Europe. You really do need to find a very good excuse if you are not going to do this event!
The Das guys put on a great show and there are loads of great people and cars to talk to and look at.
I don't really understand how the track is so good as for the lack of preparation relative to a full time track it really is unreasonably good.
So the car was all sorted with a decent clutch peddle and what looked like some adjustment, so it was all looking good. As usual it was all a bit last minute, and I did not feel like I was at all organised when I left but I was reasonably confident the car was in a good place.
After the comedy of realising I was not sure where I was going when queuing for the ferry in the pouring rain in Dover thought I would ask the all knowing lounge what to put in the sat nav to get me there. Henk was good enough to reply so I was all set. He did joke that I could follow him if I bumped in to him on route, but that was never going to happen. So when a grey Caddy with a green DDD sticker waved as it went by not more than 30 minutes into the journey to say I was surprised to see Henk was an understatement! Henk was good enough to provide an escort all the way to the track which was a nice start to the weekend.
Thanks also to Marc who saved me some pit space we were all ready to go before it was dark.
The Jarvis hospitality services were in full effect with a random selection of food  available with a 4 course meal which I don't suppose I will ever see on a single menu again.
Tech inspection was done first thing in the morning so it was just a case of waiting for the track as there was a lot rain the previous day and over night. But things soon got underway.
I got 3 runs in with varying amounts of clutch slip and or tire spin which ended with a best of 11.4* with a 1.8* 60ft which was not where I wanted to be but it was better than the two 12's I started with so I was heading in the right direction at least.
The first run was a comedy cock up on my part as when I reconnected the 2 step switch I managed to put it on the wrong terminal on the switch so it was always on hence the 8,000rpm limit on the 1st run and me on the rev limiter in 6th gear at what felt like half track! I had to scratch my head a bit at 1st but soon realised it was the 2 step when the data log had it bang on 8k in each gear. Round 2 was nearly as comical with clutch slip a plenty and a 2.5* sec 60ft. Its difficult to see this as  good news, but it was actually the first time the clutch management had worked all year. I had finally got to the point where I had too much slip. So perhaps other than the first 12 the car ever ran this was probably the most satisfying 12 I've run in years. It meant I had proven all be it at different tracks that I had enough tire, clutch and clutch adjustment and I had actually did if I come away from this weekend knowing this I would be happy. So I was sort of happy.

 I adjusted the clutch and headed out for another run after a short rain break.
This resulted in an uneventful 11.4* but with a 1.8* 60ft spinning the tires, so to much clutch now.
That was it for day one due to a late shower. I decided to leave the clutch alone and get a bit more heat in the tire and adjust tire pressures on Sunday to see where that took me.
The main reason for this was that the data logging of the clutch was not working so I was not able to monitor the amount of slip. So I thought as its spinning the tires I would stick with what I know more about and try and find some more grip to try and attack the issue from the other side.
There was plenty of good technical chat in the pits in the day  thanks to a few people who made the shower intervals and the day in general pass very quickly. There was certainly plenty of knowledgeable people and interesting conversations to be had which is always good!
Then I packed up and went and made the most of the Das hospitality and had a wander round the pits and catch up with people. This was particularly good this year as I missed last year it had been quiet a while since I'd seen people.
Sunday was much better weather dry all day so racing was only interrupted for lunch and with the promise of more consistent weather and hopefully track conditions I felt quite confident Tha I could make some progress.
I'd forgotten at this point that someone with far more experience than me did say it's quite difficult to get the clutch adjusted so its just where you need relative to tire and track conditions and it became obvious this was going to be the case.
I did do a number of quicker runs during the day but did not really make any progress in terms of finding the balance to get the car off the line. I'm going to blame this on the lack of data to enable me to adjust the clutch successfully for now so its high on the priority list of winter jobs to sort that out.
1st run I spun the tires for what felt like half the track, so I adjusted tire temps and did bigger burnouts whilst still leaving the clutch where it was. Over several runs this resulted in some improvements, but I was still spinning the tires and never got back to the point of the clutch slipping sufficiently to control tire spin. So what I haven't learnt yet is where that sweet spot of balance is, but I hope that will come in time With some more practice and data.
The highlightfor the weekend for the car was an 11.15 @190.58kph, which is the fastest it been on the street tires and given that was with a 1.688 60ft I think the car will be in a good place if I can get the clutch adjustment together and get back to some low 1.5* 60ft times.
That means the car finishes this season with a best of 10.97 @ 121mph on slicks and 11.15 @ 118mph which is all very encouraging for next year As both times were with poor 60ft times.
I think the biggest news of all though is the reliability of the engine. The car has done 20-25 passes (not sure exactly need to check)this year all but one at over 10,000 rpm in each gear and for a large part of the season off the line too.
As I said in a earlier post I had the humble pie ready to eat if it had all gone wrong and it had thrown itself all over the track, but of course that didn't happen.
Having changed the oil after each meeting this year I'm happy to report that there was nothing other than the usual amount of debris in the filter, the oil pressure has been really solid and looking in the DS tank at the oil straight after the run I'm happy the engine is getting a decent supply of decent oil rather than the limited supply of foaming mush the old engine got with the wet sump. It was actually a joy to see the oil in the tank looking so good. The real proof will not be known until its apart and the bearings are in my hand but I'm reasonably confident they will be OK.
The valve train remains the challenge and will be the focus this winter in terms of the engine to see what we can do to improve what we know has been reliable in the engine this season.
The main job for the winter though is to get the car street legal again next year. I said to a few people this last weekend that I don't know how the race car only guys can stand it. It has been by far the most frustrating thing about the car this year as I really miss the street driving. Its been a great reminder that a hot street car rather than a race car is definitely the way forward for me.
So winter tinkering starts tonight. As ever there is a long list but this year there is less than in recent years. The combination is roughly where it needs to be now so I just need to get it all working together which is a much better place to be.

Peter


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Udo on September 23, 2015, 21:12:34 pm
Was nice to see you at Bitburg and thanks for the kind words . We love that track

Udo


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: speedwell on July 12, 2016, 13:32:56 pm
peter's car at das drag day last year


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: 1946vw on July 25, 2016, 23:01:21 pm
[attachment=1]


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: 66Riveria on August 11, 2016, 03:28:55 am
https://www.facebook.com/brian.hyerstay/videos/918293311649241/


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: BeetleBug on August 11, 2016, 07:29:14 am
https://www.facebook.com/brian.hyerstay/videos/918293311649241/

WOW! I just love the beautiful sound of a high reving mouse engine. Thank you for sharing.

-BB-


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: RobbyKo on January 06, 2017, 17:57:32 pm
Hey guys,
love this amazing thread since years.
Unfortunately not much in 2016. >:(
What about Phase II for Peters car etc.?
Planning to build my one mouse with 1776cc this year ;D
Regards Robert


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: RobbyKo on January 27, 2017, 17:57:39 pm
Hello mouse engine fans,

so nothing else is going on here for a Long time >:(

So I will start my 1776cc project and I am looking forward to your comments  :):

- new AS 41 case
- DPR 69mm counterweighted and 8 doweled VW crank
- JPS light flywheel 3,4kg with Kennedy stage II clutch
- lightened and shotpeened Type 1 rods
- lightened Mahle forged Pistons 90,5 mm and 34mm compression height
- shortened Mahle GG barrrels
- Lightened wrist pins, maybe JPS ones
- CBīs 044 Wedge ported heads with stainless steel 42mm inlet valves, 37,5mm exhaust valves
- Compression hopefully at 11,5 :1 or 12:1
- Udo Becker 60g light weight lifters
- JPS light aluminum tapered pushrods
- JPM 1:1,55 Rockers
- JPM double Ortevea75 springs
- FK 10 I already have (or JPM Special grind)
- 48 IDFīs for they look more like in Germany (historicly) streetlegal 40mm IDFīs

It all has to get a historic licence plate here in Germany for my ī70 Karmann Ghia I own since ī80 and which was my first car. ??? which might be a challenge :-\

So hope you have some comments !?!........

Greez Robby ;D





Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Erlend / bug66 on January 27, 2017, 21:10:32 pm
You can surely go bigger cam than a FK10?

Web86C (or equivalent) or bigger!  ;D



Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: wph on January 27, 2017, 21:45:53 pm
With those rockers he's not too far off. Never overcam an engine...


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: RobbyKo on January 27, 2017, 22:31:13 pm
@wph: Yes, this is the idea, to get a more smooth ramp up at the cam, with light valvetrain (also titanium retainers), but get the valve lift with the rockers.
           So I think FK10 should work with 1776 cc to get a good reving mouse.
           At least there should remain some drivebility for street use aswell as sometimes in hilly surrounding.

          Like that wild like a bike reving JPM 1603cc mouse. Johannes used there a split FK45/44.           
           
Any other ideas ? 

Robby


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Torben Alstrup on January 27, 2017, 23:16:09 pm
IMHO wedge ports with 42x 38 mm valves have way too much port wolume for the displacement. Go mini Wedge instead. Much better.

T


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: RobbyKo on February 03, 2017, 16:32:22 pm
Hello Torben,
you may be right, but at least I already have some CB wedge ports with 42/37,5 mm valves.
I once bought them to built a 2,0 Liter engine and then I got so amazed by that thread here, that I made up my mind.

So I thought about the formular Johannes posted for his 1603 cc earlier in this thread:

- 0,88 x valve dia 0,88x40=35,2mm >>  0,88x42=36,96    so I will meassure at first the smallest port dia ...
- RPM calculation:3300000x35,2x35,2/86x86x69=8012rpm for the 1603cc mouse >> RPM calculation:3300000x36,96x36,96/86x86x69=7977rpm...not sure if this will be possible with that cam.

Combustion chamber like the 1603ccc ones,  welded and machined to the īīB-form``to get high compression.
I think this might be the same at Peter Shattoks 1776cc with JPM MS250 heads and big vlaves and short 64mm stroke.

So Iīm just curious if this will work.
Greez Robby



      





Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: RobbyKo on February 04, 2017, 10:36:15 am
Sorry right calculation but wrong writing...
 
RPM calculation:3300000x36,96x36,96/90,5x90,5x69=7977rpm.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: modnrod on February 05, 2017, 07:13:18 am
Those calcs are for a set of heads "not-of-this-world" prepared by Vulcan himself (Hi Johannes! Only joking man!), which means that to be of any use take at least 10-15% out of the airspeed, then at least 1/2 point out of the mech efficiency, etc, etc, etc.

So really, ignore them completely, and just build the engine.

While you're out there having fun with heads that are too big (soft, then suddenly pulls like a train), carbs that are too big (fluffy, spits and farts, then.....just.......goes!), cams that are too small (instant stomp NOW in traffic), I'm sitting here looking at my collection of the perfect parts for the perfect engine I've always wanted to try out, wondering if I will ever get the time to even turn over that perfectly balanced crankshaft.

Just build it. Have fun. That way you know what parts to get to make it better, not what the calcs say.........
Oh, I want a sound clip at least please, a vid is better.
 8)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: RobbyKo on February 06, 2017, 18:37:15 pm
Hi modnrod,
youīre right.
I am now  thinking ??? for years, maybe as you, about the perfect engine I want to build for my Karmann project.
Over the past years I have gathered parts to build minimum three engines. :-\

O.k. !!! So now I will start to build this engine for I think it was the essence Iīve got out of this thread here. ;D

Iīll keep you all posted.
Robby


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: slowlearner on May 22, 2017, 07:56:42 am
I've been lusting over this thread for years now. I think its so cool what others have been doing.  ;D

Here's the thing. I've got a circa 66 sp 1300 sitting in my shed. It was going to go in my car with a supercharger some years back,  but that's not happened coz I did something different. What I'm wondering is if I could do something silly with it.... on the cheap.

A couple of questions...

I've got some manton moly pushrods and AA 1.25 ratio rockers. I could use them right?

Johannas came up with some way of balancing his 1603 crank without counter weights. How?

And yes I'd want to keep the SP heads.  I  told you it was silly.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: slowlearner on May 23, 2017, 01:58:20 am
Just read back through the thread... answered most of the questions.

Turns out there are some pretty crazy pistons available in 77mm bore for not a lot of cash. Exibit A

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/HONDA-CRF-250R-77mm-NAMURA-HYPERDRYVE-PISTON-KIT-STD-BORE-2010-2013-/191133562099?hash=item2c8072b4f3:g:0b0AAOSwofxUlyez

(http://i.imgur.com/a7WtptK.jpg)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: RobbyKo on October 26, 2017, 15:23:58 pm
Wondering if that would work in Type 1 with such a short skirt ?
 See same for 1603cc  ;-))
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/HONDA-XR-400R-86mm-NAMURA-PISTON-KIT-040-1996-2004/181769143157?epid=928085087&hash=item2a52490375:g:z-IAAOSwwTlUly3R


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: slowlearner on October 26, 2017, 21:36:29 pm
Well, I do have a TP1600 lying around too... and these pistons are slightly cheaper... hmm.

Did you start building your motor yet Robby?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: RobbyKo on October 27, 2017, 15:36:47 pm
Up to end of September I worked every free minute to get my car once again street legal, after 25 years, but with an interim 1600cc engine and dual 40 idf. So ist done and worked very well at a trip from Germany to Sicilia and back. Now as winter time is coming Iīll start. Do have some parts currently at the machine shop...When I got every part back together I will post some photos and then start ;-)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: RobbyKo on October 29, 2017, 14:42:07 pm
...just thinking about a second, paralell project beside the 1776cc, which might fit better to a smooth runningīīHistoric`` Street Sport Engine...;D

- AS41 case with ftting sleeves and Gene Berg case nuts/thick washers
- 1584 cc with forged and lightened Mahle Pistons  with light tool steel wrist pins
    (or e.g. lightweight JE or  Woessner Opel , Honda motorbike or whatever pistons to get less compression height and narrow engine case?)
- DPR 69 counterweighted crank (based on VW forgings)
- VW rods lightend and polished or shot peaned
- JPS 3,4 kg 200mm flywheel
- Kennedy stage 2 clutch
- 043 heads, or maybe CB Panchitos for good cooling capabilities, with modified 40 / 35 mm stainless steel valves
   Does anybody has got experience with the CB Panchitos?
- Single Orteva 75 springs with titanium retainers
- Scat rockers 1,4:1 lightened
- 60 g Udo Becker lifters or 53g Thorsten Pieper
- JPS Alu pushrods 10mm/6mm ca. 44g
- CSP streetsport competition exhaust

...but with restriction to dual 40mm 68/69 IDFs and max. 10,5:1 compression ratio to get an engine more reliable with pump gas

But now the question:  Which cam would fit best cam to get most power out of it and to get a good reving engine? No idea if I would get near or over 7000 rpm...


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: slowlearner on October 31, 2017, 06:28:14 am
Congrats on getting the car back on the road. Looking forward to seeing your build. :)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: BeetleBug on October 31, 2017, 13:31:34 pm
...just thinking about a second, paralell project beside the 1776cc, which might fit better to a smooth runningīīHistoric`` Street Sport Engine...;D

- AS41 case with ftting sleeves and Gene Berg case nuts/thick washers
- 1584 cc with forged and lightened Mahle Pistons  with light tool steel wrist pins
    (or e.g. lightweight JE or  Woessner Opel , Honda motorbike or whatever pistons to get less compression height and narrow engine case?)
- DPR 69 counterweighted crank (based on VW forgings)
- VW rods lightend and polished or shot peaned
- JPS 3,4 kg 200mm flywheel
- Kennedy stage 2 clutch
- 043 heads, or maybe CB Panchitos for good cooling capabilities, with modified 40 / 35 mm stainless steel valves
   Does anybody has got experience with the CB Panchitos?
- Single Orteva 75 springs with titanium retainers
- Scat rockers 1,4:1 lightened
- 60 g Udo Becker lifters or 53g Thorsten Pieper
- JPS Alu pushrods 10mm/6mm ca. 44g
- CSP streetsport competition exhaust

...but with restriction to dual 40mm 68/69 IDFs and max. 10,5:1 compression ratio to get an engine more reliable with pump gas

But now the question:  Which cam would fit best cam to get most power out of it and to get a good reving engine? No idea if I would get near or over 7000 rpm...
'

My two cents:

1) Too much clutch
2) Too little spring pressure
3) I would go Mini Wedgeport
4) If not JPM cam then a Engle FK45
5) Add CR to kick the little mouse into life
6) Take into consideration that you later should replace the carbs with IDA`s. Not just for the looks...  :)

-BB-





Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: RobbyKo on November 03, 2017, 18:48:49 pm
o.k. sounds like a plan, only problem: you canīt get mini wedges with 40/35mm valves and std. bore :-\ ???


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: bedjo78 on February 23, 2018, 09:53:44 am

i am preparing 1641cc ( 69 x 87 ) drag engine. it is a class limited with single carb 34 max.  I was thinking using fk8 with 1.4 rockers. heads 37 (40)  X 35 Stailess steel valve with psi springs. or is it posible using aluminum pushrod with single spring. I want to rev as high 8000 rpm shifting if posible with 34 carbs. carb will be run with 32 or no ventury.

any idea what best combination will work .


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Neil Davies on February 23, 2018, 12:47:07 pm
Obviously a venturi is there to speed up air flow through the carb. With a 34mm max carb size, and eliminating the venturi, are you going to see any benefit? How about having an external venturi on top of the carb in place of (or underneath) a trumpet?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: bedjo78 on February 23, 2018, 18:08:43 pm
I was thinkin  at hight rpm. Air speed would be increase should be enough to suck fuel of the bowl.
This is just drag full open or close throttle.  idle and part throttle may be not right, but i dont need

Not sure if with 34 vent would able to rev to 8000


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: HW on March 01, 2018, 18:25:12 pm
40 years vs modern technology. 


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Joel Mohr on June 18, 2018, 16:27:12 pm
1672, 65 x 90.5, 46 x 36 Clyde Berg large oval ports, Hemi cut, detailed chambers, Berg short IDA manifolds, Berg 37/42 venturis,  9.9 to 1, Web 86b, Mohr Performance 3 step header, makes 155 on 91 octane....


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: modnrod on June 19, 2018, 01:06:22 am
I can hear it from here .......  8)

65 stroke - Chev journals on a 69?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Joel Mohr on June 19, 2018, 15:56:13 pm
Yes! Jose at DPR said it be stronger than adding counterweights to a 40 hp crank...


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: slowlearner on August 31, 2018, 09:51:15 am
1672, 65 x 90.5, 46 x 36 Clyde Berg large oval ports, Hemi cut, detailed chambers, Berg short IDA manifolds, Berg 37/42 venturis,  9.9 to 1, Web 86b, Mohr Performance 3 step header, makes 155 on 91 octane....

Love to see a vid of that running. What's it going in?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Joel Mohr on September 17, 2018, 18:19:33 pm
It's in my Puma...


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: 1946vw on September 27, 2018, 16:21:58 pm
[attachment=1]


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: alex d on September 27, 2018, 21:24:15 pm
any input on this? :o :o :o :o :o
(https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1827588.png)


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: 1946vw on May 09, 2019, 20:45:46 pm
G/D goes 8.51 149.86 300 plus hp 1700


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: dangerous on May 09, 2019, 22:38:42 pm
Awesome 1946VW ;)
What is the weight?
..or weight/ci ?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: 1946vw on May 09, 2019, 23:35:19 pm
104 cid 870 lbs


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: 1946vw on July 16, 2019, 18:47:26 pm
Woodburn


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Neil Davies on July 16, 2019, 20:41:17 pm
I can just make out Comp Eliminator on the trophy - tell us more! That is a Wally, isn't it?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: 1946vw on August 06, 2019, 19:38:55 pm
Seattle 2019


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Abadco2 on August 06, 2019, 23:26:22 pm
Fantastic, well done!


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: JeeWee on May 03, 2020, 09:47:33 am
awesome topic which I enjoyed last week during my holiday... at home. Fantastic to read about 140hp per litre from these engines, incredible work and lot's of respect! I was already happy with my 1192 36hp engine putting out 48.9hp, but now I am wondering... with some clever blueprinting what is possible with that pre war design engine and modern thinking...
Anyhow any updates on cool projects?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: brewsy on May 03, 2020, 11:09:29 am
awesome topic which I enjoyed last week during my holiday... at home. Fantastic to read about 140hp per litre from these engines, incredible work and lot's of respect! I was already happy with my 1192 36hp engine putting out 48.9hp, but now I am wondering... with some clever blueprinting what is possible with that pre war design engine and modern thinking...
Anyhow any updates on cool projects?

Check out the 36HP class in LSR.
Those peeps are doing some big stuff with those old engines..


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: Glauco on August 22, 2020, 16:08:41 pm
Anyone got more info on the new JPM 1600cc challange engine?
Not sure if it's ok for me to post it here, but his work is quite impressive!
[attachment=1]


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: brewsy on August 24, 2020, 20:50:37 pm
Anyone got more info on the new JPM 1600cc challange engine?
Not sure if it's ok for me to post it here, but his work is quite impressive!
[attachment=1]

WOW.
Somebody post some dyno videos quick!!  :D ;D


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: mymedusa on September 19, 2020, 20:07:14 pm
Hi folks,
I build and testet a 1285cc turbo
K03 7074 twin scroll turbo, water intercooler system, water meth spray, MS1extra efi

AB engine
77mm stronger pistons, stock barrels
Stock ballanced crank
Heads slightly portet (35x33)mm stainless valves
Jpm single valve springs plus scat inner spring
Cromo puschrods
Cb H-beam rods 20mm pin
TCS20 engle camshaft, stock rockers 9,2:1, 102oktane fuel
Nothing real special on the engine intselfe

225hp@6800rpm 260nm@3500rpm at 1,35 bar
250hp@6300rpm 293nm@3500 rpm at 1,8 bar flatten to 1,6bar

Very streetable, full body car with 205/70 r15 tires
0-100 in 5,01sec still to improve
3.88, 89 4th. Pro street
Slow 13,77s at 1/4 mile @169km/h full body street tires
Also still to improve because of bad 60feet times far over 2 sec.
Real fuel saver try to reach unter 7l/100km

On the list: destroyed axle and later 1. Gear both at the 1/4 mile track.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: brewsy on September 20, 2020, 15:44:31 pm
Hi folks,
I build and testet a 1285cc turbo
K03 7074 twin scroll turbo, water intercooler system, water meth spray, MS1extra efi

AB engine
77mm stronger pistons, stock barrels
Stock ballanced crank
Heads slightly portet (35x33)mm stainless valves
Jpm single valve springs plus scat inner spring
Cromo puschrods
Cb H-beam rods 20mm pin
TCS20 engle camshaft, stock rockers 9,2:1, 102oktane fuel
Nothing real special on the engine intselfe

225hp@6800rpm 260nm@3500rpm at 1,35 bar
250hp@6300rpm 293nm@3500 rpm at 1,8 bar flatten to 1,6bar

Very streetable, full body car with 205/70 r15 tires
0-100 in 5,01sec still to improve
3.88, 89 4th. Pro street
Slow 13,77s at 1/4 mile @169km/h full body street tires
Also still to improve because of bad 60feet times far over 2 sec.
Real fuel saver try to reach unter 7l/100km

On the list: destroyed axle and later 1. Gear both at the 1/4 mile track.

AWESOME!!
Im guessing 102 Octane isn't 'street' fuel??

Marc


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: mymedusa on September 20, 2020, 20:20:44 pm
In germany it is. I just need it for the 250hp.

Chris


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: DRED on September 20, 2020, 20:52:55 pm
hello chris,

can you tell me more a bout the tcs 20?
it's an ils profile, what did motiver your choix, do toi think you can use it with 1.25 rocker. would you change it and by what?


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: brewsy on September 21, 2020, 09:57:32 am
In germany it is. I just need it for the 250hp.

Chris
Hi Chris,
Thats pretty cool. I 'think' our (UK) street best is Shell 98.

Really like your exhaust. It looks like you have paired the cylinders front & back to give 1+3 & 2+4 cylinders and then 'siamised' them together to keep the gases separate to the twin scroll entry, correct?
Can I ask where you have the water/air radiator? Is it at the front of the car and do you run the water pipes inside or outside the car?

Cheers
Marc


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: mymedusa on September 22, 2020, 10:13:50 am
The tcs20 just matched my ports best. I wanted a range from 3500-7000rpm cam and port can do this. On the track i have fist till 8000rpm,
Sec. till 7500tpm and 3dr into finish line close the max hp.
98okt fuelnis std best fuel here too, but you can buy schell 100oktane and aral untimate 102oct. Fuel.

With the header its right. Because og the shape of the inlet into the turbine i build the true header with a friend exactly how you told. 4-2 and 1-3 and put a plate into a pipe to get all matched.
My whater tank is unter the back seat, pump is close and outside and radiator in floored under the car. Its ok. But not best solution.


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: DRED on September 22, 2020, 19:36:45 pm
ok, Thanks Chris. i'm currently building a 2074cc turbo with small cylinder heads for a street car, and i have a tcs20 on the shelf but I wasn't sure if it's a good choice..


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: brewsy on September 23, 2020, 11:19:39 am
With the header its right. Because og the shape of the inlet into the turbine i build the true header with a friend exactly how you told. 4-2 and 1-3 and put a plate into a pipe to get all matched.
My whater tank is unter the back seat, pump is close and outside and radiator in floored under the car. Its ok. But not best solution.

Nice!
Im intending to see if I can get 2x coolers up the front for water and oil but had been considering only a water circuit . Then using a water-oil oilcooler sandwich adaptor. The water circuit would then cover turbo air-water intercooler, turbo water cooling and oil. That sounds like it would help with rapid engine oil warm up however I have a feeling that the water in the cooling circuit would only go as low as 80-90C and mean that the turbo intercooler wont be able to get the 'cool' air any lower than that temperature?
Would anybody agree/disagree with that?

Cheers


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: johandryselius on September 29, 2020, 21:29:21 pm
I run a TCS30 on my 1600 Challenge engine - unporteded heads and original valves and it produces 312 Wheel HP@ 2bar (29PSI). When I ran my quickest pass, I ran 2,5 bar (36PSI) on gear 2-4.
Johan


Title: Re: Small powerhouses and old school
Post by: gracey on November 15, 2020, 09:38:34 am
Anyone got more info on the new JPM 1600cc challange engine?
Not sure if it's ok for me to post it here, but his work is quite impressive!
[attachment=1]

Is there a tuning reason for using 36mm venturi's in 48IDF's instead of using 44IDF's?
I'm thinking better signal, or maybe the 48's were available?