The Cal-look Lounge

As i had quite a few people ask what i was doing next when i sold the engine from my cabrio I thought i would do a build up of what will be the next engine for it,so here it is so far:

This is going to be the new engine for my cabrio,its a CB case ordered with no stud holes which was then welded on number 2 cylinder,machined and the head stud holes drilled,taped and case savers for 10mm studs fitted by Jeff denham at 4inchbore.com
 
It has a scat 86mm pro comp crank wedgemated at DK machine with all t4 mains,and chevy journal pauter rods.
An engle cam that I had them grind for me with Scat light lifters.

101.6 wiseco pistons with a 12cc dish thanks to Doug at bergs in regular finned cylinders,
then JPM heads that johannes ported and modified he chambers for 49/39.5 11/32 stem valves with pauter 1.5/1 roller tip rockers,I will run Jaycee push rods&tubes.

I have had the short motor together once but changed my mind on a couple of things so it is apart again,as soon as I have everything back I will re assemble it and see what difference it makes over the old 2332 I ran for the last few years.

cheers richie,uk

nice to let us see what kind of engine you drive.

Michael

I still covert your heads.  I look forward to seeing it on the track in the near future.

I'd say 7, maybe 10bhp more maybe?  :)

86x101.6 makes 2.8 litre, wow, it's bound to be quick, my mates brother had a 2.8 capri back in the day and that was dead fast ;D

andy

So you are finally joining the 2789 club!
What cylinders are you using? They look like Autocraft, are they availible again?

I had AA performance 2 years ago, but they were far from round and a bit thin.
I will buy new ones in a couple of weeks and I think I will go for Pauter.

Cheers!
Roman

Nice looking stack of parts- I might just have to borrow that ring compressor.  ;D

Looking good dude - should be interesting - Those heads are SICK ;D

VERY nice!

going to be interesting, looking forward to see how it performs. I'd also like to see how the angle flow heads peform with this combo.

keep up the good work and thanks for sharing


Martin

Never seen a set of JPM with that size of the holes... :o How much more that the stock 240 cfm do they flow?
And can I see the business end to please?  :)

I can't wait to see this new beat on the track!


But Wait!?

Did I miss something have you sold the old motor since coming being in the states?

Got them here[new casting angleflows] to try as a direct comparission when jeff has finished doing his development set he will do his stuff to mine,will try to keep valves sizes etc the same

cheers richie,uk

Yep,although its still here on the shelf it has a new owner :)

cheers richie,uk

Jon, I do have the flow figures somewhere but i will check with Johannes before i put them up ;) 
As requested some more revealing pics of the heads

cheers richie,uk

Going to use these new style bugpack head studs with the fine thread on the head end
 and I will set the case up to delete the oil relief plungers and run this Scat pressure relief filter head
with a return to the sump which should help give more consistent oil pressure
and in theory keep the oil cooler

cheers richie,uk

Wow nice Richie what a fun winter project! heads look killer, Any reason why you went with nail head valves?

Regards,   K-Roc,

Hi darren,thanks
well your technical term lost me :-[ :D  so you will have to elaborate more?

cheers richie,uk

Did Johannes start doing steel seats, did you ask specifically for steel or is it just me who see wrong?

Richie, in this pic:

http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7568.0;attach=24286;image

the face of the valve in the chambers is dead flat.  That's a nail head valve.  Traditionally, a dished head is used in VWs.

"Traditionally, a dished head is used in VWs."  ???

Traditionally, when "people" talk about nailhead valves, they are referring to the size ( or lack of )...I think ?

Cheers  :)

welcome in the jpm 4" head club  :P

looking good. why not use jpms 5 bolt rockers?

big bang racing
denmark

I think a dished valve head (bottom) is what he meant. It saves some weight on the valve itselve and should not really weaken it.

I also thought about the 5-stud, but with the wider Pauter rockers, that option was probably out of the question.

Richie, what does the cabrio weigh at the drags?

Tnx,
Walter

Hi In the case of an old Buick "Nailhead" it had small valves installed vertically that's where the term come from,  some folks today (including myself) call the style of valve that is dead flat on the face a Nail head ( like the head of a nail )  and the valves we typically see as a dished head,  The "Nail Head" style are usually a tiny bit heavier and because of thier shape and also have different flow Characterisitics because the back angle shape is usually different than a "Dished" Valve.  JPM probably put that style of valve in for a reason and I was just wondering if ya knew why.

Cheers man.

  there Ti ;)  does that make a difference? :)

cheers richie,uk

At this stage,money,I will measure the deflection of the rocker shaft when its all together and see from there,proberly later on I will go to the 5 stud mounting system if its needed

cheers richie,uk

2060lbs weighed at vegas

cheers richie

picked up these 6inch pauter rods yesterday which i will now use,wanted to try a longer rod ratio to see if it makes any noticable difference so have 5.6s as well,
also this is the turbo I will be using,its a Turbonetics t72

cheers richie,uk

No Richie you don't need to use the 5.6 rod all you need to do is give them to me for my motor. :-* ;D

Hi Richie and K-Roc

My understanding is the terms 'nailhead' and 'tulip' are used to describe the shape on the back of the head of the valve rather than the chamber side... 'tulip' has a much larger and gentler radius from valve seat face (45deg) to valve stem than seen on 'nailhead' valves.

Tulip shape most easily seen in the valve at far left and 3rd left....

(http://www.av-v.com/Image/TulipValve.jpg)

'Nailhead' valve is what most of us are used to seeing... it's more of a 'penny on a stick' design and doesn't have such a large radius on the back of the head.
2nd from right is nailhead style

Well at least that's how I differentiate between 'tulip' and 'nailhead'  ;)

It's not common to see the tulip shape on a stainless valve because of the extra weight (at least I've never seen one!).
Normally only seen on lightweight titanium exhaust valves.

That extra mass on the back of the valve can actually improve flow of the exhaust port by better streamlining flow past the valve head.
Flow tends to improve when the exit side tapers gently (teardrop).
Plus you can afford a little extra weight on the smaller diameter valve anyway - it'll still come in lighter than a nailhead inlet.

The chamber side of the valve head being totally flat improves wet flow charactersistics in the combustion chamber i.e. you achieve a more consistent air/fuel ratio throughout the chamber.
Again this flat face is more likely on titanium valves because of the extra weight compared to the more common concave design seen on stainless valves (done to reduce weight).

Wet flow tests often show up mini 'cyclones' in and around those concave areas, resulting in fuel puddling and therefore inconsistent fuel distribution in the chamber.

Without the luxury of wetflow test equipment, post-combustion analysis (remove head or poke borescope through plug hole) will reveal tell-tale signs of unequal air/fuel distribution in the chamber area... if that's what you've got you'll see clean areas on the piston crown and head after you've run the engine - proof positive something was causing fuel to fall out of suspension in one or more places once it entered the chamber. Equal distribution across the the whole area equals more power at the flywheel.

Lambda sensor gives average AFR... could be seriously lean in some areas and overly rich in others... giving same AFR reading as an engine running equal distribution in the chamber. Guess which one makes more power?   ;)

IMO best combination is tulip exhaust and nailhead inlet, both with totally flat faces on chamber side.
I haven't flow tested an Angle Flow head (yet!) but I'd take a guess the tulip exhaust may be more of an advantage in the AF than a conventional exhaust port due to the less severe turn flow has to make after exiting past the valve head, making for better velocity distribution across the port (more flow). Could be completely wrong though - wouldn't be the first time  :D

A different rod length needs all sorts of different other components like pistons and/or cylinders, push rods and even cylinder tin maybe. In short, you need to totally rebuild/re-engineer the engine just to change different rod length.
You would go to all this trouble just to settle (for once and for all) if a different rod ratio makes a noticeble hp difference?  :o

Very nice parts BTW, the best there are. Should make a very interesting outcome  :)
Any gearbox upgrades as well  ::)

looking good richie.....nice rods there.....cant wait to see that thing run.... ;D see ya soon

Yes :)

cheers richie

Thanks John :)

cheers richie

Thanks John M your reply makes total sense ( and my own terminology is wrong ) I should be referring to the face of the valve in the chamber as flat or Dished,  I have been using a Stainlees steel Tulip back side and dish front, It's a stainless valve so the dish is there to help reduce weight,  For a Ti Valve pretty much all I see are flat face, ( sorry Richie I wasn't aware those were Ti, )
I wonder if your set up is like what John likes, ( Nail head intake and Tulip Exhaust )
John have you ever tried a back to back flow test with a Tulip Vs. Nail head intake?  With the Tulip style say a 25 Deg, 1/2" radius I bet you will find Pressure recovery into the chamber far better with the Tulip.

Picture of a Katech C5R head on Mondello's Wet Flow Bench.  ;)

Nope, never flow tested a tulip intake vs nailhead...

In my experience all intakes have been nailhead only, even with large diameter Ti.
Out of curiosity I'll try adding some clay to back of an intake valve next time I'm flow testing.

Concern with intake valves generally tends to be weight reduction.
However different angle backcuts (eg 25, 27, 30, 33deg etc) can make a significant flow difference so having more backcut area to play with may help....??

Flow past intake valve through the seat area isn't air alone (atomised air/fuel mix) so the flowbench (air only) doesn't give all the answers. It appears the distinct breaks between angles on the seat eg 75, 60, 45, 30 etc are advantageous in keeping fuel atomised in the airstream so trying to get super clever with aerodynamics on the inatke side may be counterproductive..... don't even know where to start on that other than to say full radius seats (no distinct separate angles) don't work as good on the intake side on the dyno vs the flowbench as they can on the exhaust. Exhaust is gas only - not air plus fluid.

Tulip intake is always going to reduce min CSA at the valve throat so I'm assuming the loss in flow area would counteract any potential increase against possible gains via larger radius on the back of valve head - or maybe it'd only hurt low lift flow which may not be too much of a concern on a high rpm drag race only motor??

The more teardrop-ish streamlined tulip profile tends to improve flow when the blunt end comes first - not the other way round.
Have you found any gains with tulip intakes? Sounds like it's worth testing but if any gains were found it'd no doubt require custom one-off (i.e. VERY expensive) valves  :o

Taking increased valve weight as result of tulip profile into consideration, especially with stainless, I doubt they're a viable option, esp at larger (heavier) valve diameters used in a typical max effort engine.

You find yourself in the usual compromise situation: what's the better choice..... a little more flow in a static test on the flowbench vs less risk of valve float when in a dynamic real world situation i.e. running engine?

Maybe smaller diam valve stuff, where valve float is less of an issue, it could work if the flow figures showed it to be an advantage but I've yet to try it.
Would customer pay additional cost of custom made valves for what would probably be minimal flow increase?? :-\

I'll let you know if I make a major discovery  ;)

Darren,
I kind of left it out on purpose to see what reaction I would get ;) :D

cheers richie

wouldn't the longer rod move your power band up the rev range?  How would this effect when the turbo kicks in?

I don't know when Richie received his heads, but Johannes has invested in a wetflow system this last year. He told me that his 247 hp 1915 was disastrous in that respect, and that he had since gotten rid of the major wet spots. But he had yet to test it on the dyno.

Was just looking back at that huge turbo and was wondering what your expectations are regarding torque and hp with this engine?

And I have to ask again: will you use your current gearbox? (what do you have at the moment?)

No idea on hp& torque,as nearly everything is changed from my last engine its the unknown :) 

and presently have a 091 bus box with all aftermarket parts inside

cheers richie

I recieved them from Johannes at SCC this year so maybe he did have a chance to test them this way



Heres the figures that johannes supplied me as he is happy with them being posted here :)


Flow no at 25" H2O.
Lift(mm)                     Intake (49mm)                     exhaust(39mm)
2                               46,7                         36,2
4                               96,1                         77,26                             
6                              142,0                        108,0
8                              183,2                        129,1
10                            209,3                        148,6
12                            234,1                        163,0
14                            250,5                        175,1
16                            260,3                        190,9

The velocity in the intake port in the largest cross sectional area is 309ft/s and the ex velocity at the center of the flange is 334ft/s

cheers richie

Thats the reason for me to want to try it,its all just theory,as I dont know a power band yet I wont know which is better for my car until I try :) In a perfect world everything would work together but we will see ;)

cheers richie

That's gone be a "GREAT" engine,like to see your 'cab 'running with that motor,the "old" engine was all
really that fast.  :o 
So good luck with the build up.  ;)
BTW Richie,who bought your "2332"?
Grtz,Peter

I lucky bugger is all i know  :o

Interesting! Here's a comparsion between yours and mine. Hairdryer vs N/A, but both are JPM 4".

Flow no at 25" H2O.     Richie                       Richie                        Roman            Roman
Lift(mm)                     Intake (49mm)          exhaust(39mm)          Intake (51mm)  Exhaust (38 mm)
2                               46,7                         36,2                         49,1               35,4
4                               96,1                         77,26                       99,3               82,8                              
6                              142,0                        108,0                       144,6             101,8               
8                              183,2                        129,1                       183,6             126,3             
10                            209,3                        148,6                       215                145,5             
12                            234,1                        163,0                       236,4              161,1             
14                            250,5                        175,1                        258,7              172               
16                            260,3                        190,9                       276,1               180,2               

Richie: The velocity in the intake port in the largest cross sectional area is 309ft/s and the ex velocity at the center of the flange is 334ft/s
Roman: The velocity in the intake port in the largest cross sectional area is 310ft/s and the ex velocity at the center of the flange is 320ft/s

My heads are at JPM now and he is going to make some smaller updates.

hi roman,
thats interesting reading,I pressume the real differences are due to the valve sizes?

i am going to try get them flowed here to see the comparision between european and american numbers ;)

cheers richie

Please use the same flow bench my CB CNC competition eliminators was measured on... that should add about 70 cfm.

Thanks for answering all questions in such detail Richard! Very much appriciated.

Just a guess, but with heads flowing 250-260 (guesstimating you will be running a little over 14mm lift), you would make 275 hp n/a in normal high-output tune (whatever that is), so 550 hp at 1 bar boost should be possible with them. Then on 22 psi (1.5 bar) 650-700 hp should be possible. Not even thinking about 30 psi here... (825-ish)  :o :o I know, I know, the law of deminishing returns and all that, but still.
Just doing stupidly oversimplyfied calculations, but I can't help thinking that you haven't done something similar yourself... ;D

Double injectors, bigger or double fuel pumps?
Any upgrades for intercooling or WI planned?

 ;D ;D ;D

Yes, I think so. I also have 7 mm valve stem and that increases the flow 3-4 cfm or so.

Some time ago we did some comparisons with the different backs on the valves.
It was some time ago and we were only looking at the flow number, so nothing conclusive.
the engine WAS dynoed but since many different improvements were made, nothing was conclusive regarding the valve shape.

What I can say was that I recall there were some measurable flow gains in the mid to low lift area,
and so , since this was our area of interest, we tended to go for the tuliped valve from that time onward.

It should be obvious that this may not have been an improvement at all, when trying the same valve in the various different ports,
when you see how different the Autocraft/CD, Pauter, and AF/CE/SF ports-entry are.

Most V8 off-the-shelf Ti valves had the tulip shape(well...fatter back anyhow) so that was normally what we had.
And because of the large margin available, we even cut the valve some more to excentuate(sp?) this feature.
But it should be added that we were trying to improve the low to mid lift flow,
and in hind-sight this may not have been for the best, track OR dyno wise.

Interesting is the CB CE head, had SS tulip inlet(well fat backed anyhow),
yet their own Ti valves had a much thinner back compared with the SS
and so it took some work to 'get back' the losses that were found in the low to mid area.

After all that rambling, it is important to know that anything found in one type of port,
may not be a 'rule of thumb' in a different style of head,
when speaking about gains from the shape of the valve back side. 

 ;) :D  Something like that :o

car already has 8 injectors,will swap them out to 8 1500cc ones,pump is also already overkill,the only upgrade should be the header and possibly the chargecooler,I did most stuff already over the last 2 years for this engine

cheers richie

Well have been making some progress,slowly but surely its coming together.The short motor went together easily,getting the USA made cylinders to go together with Swedish heads was more of a task,thanks to Donny at DK engineering for cutting the cylinders to length and to size,and AJ sims for opening up the heads to suit,and Rick Sadler from Bugpack who opend the doors to me even though they were already closed for the holidays so we could mix and match the head stud lengths,I now have the heads on so I can do the geometry next.
Heres some pics of what I did so far

cheers richie

And more

Looking good buddy! ;)

It all looks so neat and simple almost...
Will that be the worlds strongest Auto-linea cased engine yet?  ::)
Very curieus if the casting will hold that much torque.

What is your crank-flywheel connection? Wedgemate, flanged?

The case is the CB version which is filled in alot more behind the stud/case saver area,I have cracked the regular raised roof auto linea case by no1 top head stud[nr flywheel] but the CB case has held up well for 2 years in my 2332,Jeff set the case savers deeper to help with this as well.

Its a wedged crank/flywheel as again i have had no issues for the past 7 years with the crank/flywheel in the old engine,but i do have a new 86mm Scat flanged crank incase I have issues :)

cheers richie,uk

Thanks Stian,maybe a roller in there next time ;)

 Seasons greetings to you and Barbro[hope I got the spelling correct? ]

cheers richie

riichie, awesome motor,getting pretty 'teknical" here...., just finished my first motor here in nevada, let me know if your need any help..bill

Looking good buddy ;D

Looks like the same numbers as the CB CNC ported , this is how they look like , not that big .

Udo

 :D :D :D

Apples and oranges I think ;)

cheers richie

Hi Richie

I wish you good luck with the engine , i am building a 2,4 turbo at this time for a friend  , hope it gets ready for next year .

Udo

Thankyou :)

cheers richie

I had the pleasure of comparing my CNC apples to JPM's oranges in his flowbench... that's why I said 70 cfm... :-X

Don't forget the MS230 heads cool for the street. Big difference there too. Plus cooler heads also perform better.
Those things don't show on a dynosheet either.

At what pressure drop?

Well its all together for the final time,
First checked the cylinders for piston to bore clearance and that they were round,Then set the ring gaps,then loaded the pistons into the cylinders
got the lash caps from Roger crawford and Jeff D had an adjustable push rod to suit a motor this wide,so did the rocker geometry and got push rod length,
just need to get some longer push rod tubes as they Jaycee ones I have are to short as are the pushrods,
will get manton to make some up for me next week.
The compression is set at 8.5/1  and I have 670thou[about 17mm] lift so this is going to be alot of fun  :)
Need to make a couple of modifications to the car now to fit it in due to the width and will be building a new header as the 1 5/8 there at the moment is going to strangle this thing.

cheers richie

and as it looks now :)

cheers richie

Want!

lookin good....ill have my car there tuesday so you can fit it.  ;D ;D

Lookin' good!
(http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t318/Photokernow/2646326641_cfbab05084.jpg)

looking good richie,
where is first race?

Mags

Hi Jon
Turbo engines do not need much flow , so i think those smaler ports will work.

Udo

Engine is looking awesome. Cant wait to see the numbers its going to run

Lee

Thanks Keith for lending me you car,think it suits you more though :o :D

any reason you wrote Brian on the back though?? ???

cheers richie

Not sure why the Slamming on the CNC Comp Elims, Were making some pretty decent power with them here.. Lightly massaged Ex Ports, and a different Valve job. I think those heads are good value.
Flow Benches don't win races ( I Know.. I own one )

 9.66 @ 140  With a Stupid Holley and No intercooler. 

(http://www.missionraceway.com/mrpresults/08results/08mrpSept262728/PIC_0424.jpg)

Soon to have EFI and Air to Water ;)

On a single tire launch no less. :o

Sorry, I don't understand the question. :-[

In my opinion 260 CFM is a lot for a fully streetable head... I'm sure Richie will show us what they can do under a hairdryer :)

It's not the heads that receive mixed emotions its the advertising and the CFM numbers therein


You don't need to tell me, I own a set of CNC eliminators!! ;D ;)

To make sense of flow numbers from different sources, you need to know what depression ("H2O) the tests were carried out at.
The higher the test depression, the bigger the flow numbers.

Old SuperFlow 110 benches were designed to test at 10". Some of the bigger SF benches use 25". Later SF600 uses 28".
28" is regarded by many as 'industry standard'.
Last time I looked CB were quoting figures taken at 25". JPM tests I've seen on here are also carried out at 25"
Therefore the theory is both sets of figures are directly comparable  ;)

You can convert figures taken at one test depression for comparison with those taken at a different depression using this formula...
Multiply current cfm by square root of new test depression/old test depression

Eg, to convert cfm from 25" test to 28" equivalent, multiply 25" test cfm by 1.058

Works pretty good when converting from 25" to 28" (or vice versa) because there's relatively small difference in test pressures but using the formula to correct figures taken at 10" and expecting the results to accurately reflect a test done at 28" is a bit of a stretch. Better to pull the actual depression - but that takes a pretty powerful bench when testing the real high flow stuff.

Have to agree with JHU - my own flow tests don't come anywhere close to advertised figures  :(

Turbo situation is a lot different and more forgiving of lower flow/low velocity

IMO, based on cfm per square inch of flow area, Comp Elim CNC is lacking and certainly on n/a engine will deliver less performance than other well developed heads with smaller port csa and higher flow (ie more efficient).

Been working on 46x38 CNC Comp Elims today and found a useful increase in flow and velocity by FILLING the intake port! .... as supplied it's wrong shape and too big.

Not on a mission to knock these heads - just a little disappointed to find they're not capable of getting close to the kind of power output the advertising blurb hints at.
Next time I'll start with non CNC version

hej Richie,

which sump are you using?

When I flowed my CE CNC 48x40 right out of the box, I got 230.6 cfm@18mm lift with intake on (25 inch of water, JPM's superflow 600). At that time the advertizement was 270cfm and this was the main selling point from CB performance.
I know there can be differences between flowbenches, with intake, without intake, different size of barrels etc.......but to get 40 cfm more??



Thanks
Roar

Thanks John!
I thought this was what Bruce meant, but I couldn't be sure as I have never seen that wording for depression.
Johannes is using a Superflow 600 with digital readout, he always measure in 25" to keep the confusion amongst his customers to a minimal.

So to answer Bruce, both tests was done at 25" at the same flowbench.
However I said 70 cfm as that's how I remembered the difference to CB's advertisements, this was not accurate, I have looked at the numbers again and the CNC 48x40 CE flowed 220 CFM at 16mm lift, where CB says 261 CFM...  so thats 41 CFM of difference, not 70... for this I apologize.

I'm looking into filling mine up with plastic to increase the velocity, and increase the efficiency.

  

The problem with your comparison is that CB does not give their flow numbers at 16mm of lift.  Only in increments of .050".  IOW, only at 15.24mm, and 16.5mm.

Richie, what kind of barrels do you use, and are the powersleeved?  I am looking for some good quality barrels to my 4inch engine (101,6x86)

Thanks
Roar

Hi Roar,
these are just AA,I wanted to get this done and see what works,
autocraft have now got barrells in stock i believe from an email I got from Mike seymour,I am trying some finned Pauters on a 2232 turbo engine I have at the moment.
the 101.6s are so much thicker at the top compared to 94s that I dont think powersleeving will be needed :)

cheers richie

Thankyou John for clearing that up :) 

Have mailed you about something unrelated

cheers richie

I also am running the AA's in my motor, had them up to 2.6 Bar so far with no problems. But i have made a set up from Pauter blanks and Finned them just in case!

[/quote]


I also am running the AA's in my motor, had them up to 2.6 Bar so far with no problems. But i have made a set up from Pauter blanks and Finned them just in case!

[/quote]

So, it is possible to get blanks from autocraft? Then I can get them done, and use the fins that comes with the ARPM 3-liter case?

I also am running the AA's in my motor, had them up to 2.6 Bar so far with no problems. But i have made a set up from Pauter blanks and Finned them just in case!

[/quote]

So, it is possible to get blanks from autocraft? Then I can get them done, and use the fins that comes with the ARPM 3-liter case?

[/quote]

Hi Roar,
Do you have fins like on the picture? If you have I would buy sleeves from Darton. I spoke to Kris Lauffer when I was building my engine and he used custom Darton liners.
http://www.darton-international.com/mainpage.htm

Yeah, that is the fins I got...thanks Roman, I'll check with the Darton guys.

Well after some consultation with Johannes i am going to try the 5 stud rocker set up as well,I will try both the 2 stud pauter rockers and Johannes own set up and see what negatives and positives each one has :)  Just got to wait for the world of international shipping to wake up after the holidays  ::)and we can get on with this :)

This is what i will be trying I case you havent seen it before

cheers richie

Why dont you run the Rollers on the 5 stud set up?

I have found the same thing with a bare casting I got to do some devlopment on, They need a fin in the intake port to guide air around the guide and a much smaller port, lots of dead areas in the port, I removed the guide boss and my plastercine fin and losts flow. My next step with it is to move the valve guide centres back to original ,as with the wide centres, my small 44.5 intake valve is shrouded. I don'nt think I will need 46 or 48 valves to reach my target. 

Hi John

I think the cnc porting is good for most customers needs . You do not have that much work on the porting . Most customers don't  want to pay much money for the port work . If you do your own stuff you can take non cnc ported heads , By the way i got some good results with cnc and some hand work with na engines

udo

Hi Udo,

The smaller valved CNC heads (044s) aren't too bad and can be a good shortcut to a half decent performing head compared to the 'out of the box' version but my experience with the CE heads hasn't been so good, especially for n/a engines

I guess it depends what you're comparing them to.... when you've seen smaller valves and ports flowing more than a big mother f***er CNC head, AND add in the fact the advertising claims don't stand up, I'm less inclined to pay the CNC premium.

As you say... it comes down to the customer's expectations and budget   ;)

As you say... it comes down to the customer's expectations and budget   ;)

[/quote]

That's it . If we talk about the best heads for racing or the most flow there is no doubt about the Autocraft CD heads . I ordered a set for a turbo engine . And the work on these heads make a lot of fun . But very , very expensive . I sold only all parts (bare heads , guides , seats , titanium valves , rockers , valve covers IDA manifolds) for 4800 euros . Without any work, don't know how much they are if they get finished

Udo

Hey Richie,

When is the motor going to be fired up? :)

Still got to make a header to fit it,also getting a decent fit on the tin is going to be interesting,it will need some extra metal added to the cylinder shrouds and a couple of other pieces as its so wide so a couple of weeks yet i guess

cheers richie

a couple of weeks yet..fire that thing up richie......i wanna see it run down beach blvd.

Well havent had much time to do anymore recently,got fired up again today with some of the missing pieces turning up so back on it this weekend,heres what I got in the mail

I have had the longblock in the car and the inner wing/fender area needs a little clearancing to fit the intake manifolds so that will be first,then I will start to fabricate the header.
The cylinder tins need some extra welded in nearest the case,so I got some extras to cut up to make this easier.

If i dont encounter to many problems I hope to  be able to run it up next week and at least get the cam run in done :)

cheers richie

hey hey

seems like things are going really well there. still i think you are sunburned...

anyway, if you still have the problem with the fitting off the engine in the car. just don't bother anymore and crate that beaty up and send it to me. i am sure i can fit it in a nice brown car. off course i will cover half the shipping charges.

always there to lend a hand.

Na just imagine it in a certain little manx ;)

All nice stuff Richie! To bad about the inner wings... why don't you get some pistons with lower piston pin height... apart form the $$$$?

Richie, what kind of pushrods are those? Ti?

Alu I mean. I never heard of them. Are they al so good, and light as the pushrods from aircooled.net?

Here the link from vwspeedshop.com: http://www.vwspeedshop.com/shop/product.php?productid=1187&cat=348&page=1

mantons are steel - right ?   

If I remember right, then they are quite thick walled and weigh about 80 grams pcs .... ?

yeah they are steel :)

You are right: " Manton lightweight 3/8 chromoly pushrods "

They are thickwalled chromoly, 0.095 wall with a different heat treat, as the 0.058 wall thick were bending ::)

Jon,even with a C height piston I would still have an issue as it already took the paint off on one side were it moves slightly on launching ;) :D,and thats only with 84 stroke and 5.6 rod.

When i get a chance I will make up a replacement piece with a bubble in it to allow the clearance :)

cheers richie

Do not worry about the pushrod weight.
The more boost and/or RPM you turn, the stiffer the pushrod you need.
I can tell you that most of the really high HP turbo cars are running 7/16ths diameter pushrods now.

thats what I'm running in mine now with no signs of flex. the others would leave marks down the push-rod tubes.

When i spoke to Terry manton he did mention those,but said the K800 springs that i am using arent enough to control them,more roller cam terority I think?

cheers richie

Sorry, I thought thats the route you were going down.


Martin

Next time,this is to far in to change now.

Got the header mocked up and tacked together over the weekend,will put a couple of pics up later :)

cheers richie

Hi David, when your playing with "Fins" keep in mind the shape of an airplane wing and it's shape in relationship to where the low pressure is.  ;)

I like to use a clay radius that's about twice your diameter ( approx 50% of the diameter of the port ) seems to smooth the iar out some more.

Cheers.

Richie
I think you need some lightweight lifters K-800 springs and 160000 psi pushrods . Works up to 9500 rpms  ;)

Udo

Hi Udo,

heres the result of  76gram lifters,k 800 springs set at 260 on the seat and 480lbs on the nose and 190,000psi pushrods[mantons supplied by Jack@ jaycee,no blame here,just werent up to the job]

Maybe on a N/A engine but it didnt work for me :(

cheers richie

Thanks for the info Darren.

Hi Richie
Never seen this before , on all the turbo engines that i know or have built it works with 160000 psi. May be your springs were to close to coil bind ?
I only use Berg pushrods ,
Udo

used to get that with Autocraft dual Tappers, must say ive been impressed with the advice from Manton, and so far never had a problem with them.

Exactly  ;)

Udo,checked that very carefully,i have at least .060thou away from bind so it wasnt that.

Anyway these thicker ones should be good so back to having fun :)

cheers richie

all jokes aside, this is all very impressive



but might i suggest a bigger gearbox?

 ;D

What's the odds on it's first shakedown pass being a 10.88 ? :D 

 >:( :o :)  nah,9.88s are the thing now :D

cheers richie

Looking real good richie, looking forward to seeing the header pics. I'm about to go down the same route as far as making my own header. Where did that collection of goodies/bends/collector come from?

thanks,
tom.

 :D

No doubt helped by getting rid of that useless tea boy that always spent too much time polishing Ghias!  ;D

All the header parts came from Als headers in Anaheim so proberly not much help to you?

cheers richie

Ah, you are correct. It's so expensive trying to buy bends over here! I wish I had my own mandrel bender I really do....

Anyway, Looking forward to hearing this sounding angry Richie!

[/quote]

When i spoke to Terry manton he did mention those,but said the K800 springs that i am using arent enough to control them,more roller cam terority I think?

cheers richie
[/quote]

I've got some lovely triples lying around Richie, around 700lb on the nose... Ha,ha..

Looking good mate, look forward to popping over there and a little drive down to Denny's for a breakfast... good luck firing her up and gauging how much fuel to give that monster!!

Cheers

TomJ  ;D

Well as the engine bay is empty at the moment i took time to trim for the needed clearance to fit this in,still needs a little tidying but it now fits and i can get the valve covers off which was a small problem before ::)

Will try put some pics up tommorow   :)

cheers richie

Got the cylinder tins to fit better and the manifolds to fit ,valve covers come of just,got to finish the exhaust next and then cn fire it up :)

Wow that indeed is a wide engine.No fun getting it out of the car :-\

Michael

Your never going to get your oil cooler to work with it like that. :D

Cool pic's buddy - just wondering what is that "jacket" round the bell housing  ??? :)

To reduce the number of high velocity flying parts when the box breaks?  :)

 ;D

I thought thats what it was :)

Should have found a wider car.  :o

MSA regulations require an SFI-approved scattershield/jacket around the bellhousing of any supercharged, turbocharged or nitrous'd car for racing. It can be a problem on stuff with automatic gearboxes (big V8 nonsense) as there is no input shaft to locate into the clutch/flywheel/crank, so if the flywheel/flexplate breaks free it comes out through the bellhousing, and on front engined cars your feet try to stop it going through the bodywork... Unfortunately, VWs now have to comply to the same rules, even though I've never seen or heard of a flywheel breaking out of the bellhousing! I've seen Paul Bate break a gland nut, and Lee Darby broke the centre out of a T4-style flywheel, but neither resulted in the catastrophe that the MSA expected! ;)

The missing link arrived today,the JPM 5 bolt rocker set up


Thankyou Johannes,now I can get the motor in the car and see what it does ;D

cheers richie

Very Impressif Richie, very Cool, can't wait to see or hear what it will do this Year....!!!

See you,

Frank

Richie: the AN fitting in the sump, is that the oil return from the Turbo?

No its the oil return from the filter,the filter head has a pressure valve in it that replaces the ones in the case and only supplies the engine with what it needs,any excess pressure[or oil] just goes straight back to the sump where its needed most,the turbo oil return will go into the type 3 dipstick block off plate as its then above the oil level with no restriction :)

cheers richie

Aaah - Nice setup with external pressure valve directly in the filter mount, and then drained to the sump!
You allready answered my next question, by telling me that the oil return from the hairdryer is going in ABOVE the oil level :-)

Thanks

amazing :)

Well it has been a while,due to the lbs/cubic inch rule here in the class I have been racing in this engine got put to one side to concentrate on my 2332,now with the season over I have got the 4inch bore engine back out again to finish it and get it running.
I have finished the header and trimmed the car a little more to make getting it in and out easier,i have to redo some intake pipes and move the chargecooler then it should be ready to start.
Hopefully sometime next week.Then to the dyno to see what it will do :)


cheers richie,uk

Surely with your car being heavier than anything else you could run a bigger engine? ;) :D  Really looking forward to seeing your car with the big motor. Are you doing any other changes to the car, or keeping it all as is?

Well got some more done today,still got a few pipes to move or redo but its getting close :)

lookin good ;D

And then in :)

Sweeeeet ;D

but the question is will it fit in a fastback??? i think Patte will agree?  :P

 :o

It'll never run – you've left the Kadrons and the 009 off...

Richie,
Looking at your header design/lengths, I take it you believe an equal length header is also better for a turbo engine?

Tnx,
Walter

Hi Walter

I have tried too,
it is difficult to fit it in the car and to make numbers 1&3 be anywhere as long as 2&4,I made the one for my 2332 I have been running very similarly and it seems to work ok :)

cheers richie,uk

Reckon you'll get it built & dyno'd before coming back home?
Looks good 8)
Cheers,
Kev

Hi Kev,was thinking the other day how you have been quiet recently,must have been working to hard :D

That is the idea,to get it finished and dynoed and some miles on it before I am back,
I only have 4 days here next year before the first race so got to get everythin sorted before

cheers richie,uk

I don`t look at it as work mate, I`m helping fund world domination of old vw gassers ;)
Off to Korea tomorow, seeya xmass time ;D
Cheers,
Kev

Well I did the exhaust today complete with muffler,also got most of the boost piping done,got one to weld up still and a pipe to add for the blow off valve,I had to move the chargecooler and plumbing to fit everything in so a couple more hoses to redo.Hopefully I will get all the oil lines and turbo oil return finished tommorow and see what else needs changing,but it is getting close now :)

cheers richie,uk

Looking very nice and giving me some wicked ideas for my '56

Thanks for your reply before  ;)
Richie,
See you have also changed turbos? The picture above is a Garrett right? What type and what considerations to change from the original plans?

Tnx,
Walter

Well I am not really sure,sometime over the summer I changedmy mind ;)  Yes it is a garrett.


cheers richie,uk

Does this mean you are bringing the car back to UK next year?

Excited to see how the new engine performs, looking good :)

Hi Oyvind,no not in the forseeable future,with a race every other weekend here it is to much fun to bring it back and only have a couple of decent races per year to attend.I am planning on bringing a car to race at SCC this year,its not quite the same just helping others race, but that will be the only one in europe I think I will do in 2010 so it better be good ;D


Walter thining about the turbo thing some more,the problem with taking to much time getting something finished and running is that your brain has more ideas and more options and improvements become available,I have to get this finished and running now as I already have version 2 in my head :o :D

cheers richie,uk

I´ll put the kettle on.  ;D

Nice!  ;D
Hope it`s turbo powered and does Richie-wheelies then. We`ll have the track ready for you!

Yeah, know what you mean. My engine is just (dyno'd last week) running really good as well (in my case 'just' 350 hp  ;D) and I also have already new ideas and even bought parts for an upgrade while I have not even ran it with this newly found power...

But don't be shy, what GTxxR is it? 40, 42 or worse?  ::)

Richie -- How are you firing the injectors since you are running 2 per cylinder????? Thanks Harold

Harold,
first set of 4 as required,then the 2nd set either over 85% throttle,10000 rpm[these 2 settings are adjustable in ecu mapping]
 or when the 1st set get to 50% duty cycle the 2nd set kick in

cheers richie,uk

Its amazeing how you guys figure that stuff out.My hats off to ya, Cant wait to see it run, It was great before all of this.

Thanks Richie -- -- I'll have to look and see if my magic box can do that -- would differentially be cheaper than buying those 1000gph injectors

Well today got the oil lines,boost pipes &lines finished,I also had changed my mind on the oil return to the sump from the filter head,so had a couple of fitting welded to the sump and then tapped it for the oil temp senders.Next a couple of wiring changes and put the manifolds back on and it should be ready :)

cheers richie,uk 

Well there is just 1 pipe left,the pipe from the chargecooler to throttle body just didnt line up as well as I wanted so I have cut it up and changed it,I will get it finished today and see if it runs tonight,fingers crossed ;D

cheers richie,uk

Brilliant! go Ritchie! :)

The funny thing is it doesn't look like much going on in the engine bay; It's all happening on the back seat.
Make sure you video the testdrive on Katella Ave. :D

Frank

Theres a reason why theres no pictures from inside the back of the car ;)  sand it will proberly be slightly further away as all the orads round here are being dug up,not ideal for a gentle test drive :D

Well it is all done,got the pipe done and fitted,checked everything else is good,took an educated guess on a fuel& ignition map and its ready, just waiting for the people in the next workshop to go home so I can start it


cheers richie,uk

grumpy dave crebs GO HOME so Ritchy can make some noise. many moons ago when i had my stutska i was making some noise in the middle of the day  ;D ;D  and old GRUMPY came over and said SHUT THAT THING OFF  and i said GO FU// YOUR SELF. ive been hear longer than you. go ahead call the cops. hell jhons custom marine makes more noise in the middel of the day why cant i. you gotta show that guy whos boss . UD . 

well what happen boss.   UD .

Jeff,I am only a newbie on the Katella block ;)   
Anyway apart from a leaky push rod tube seal its all good,I had to add a bunch more fuel than I thought,the header glowing red just bedding the cam in was a little surprising :o Its all good now,tommorow some street drivng should give me more idea of what it wants but it does sound different and good :)

cheers richie,uk

Nice work Richie!
Do you follow any piston ring break in procedure? 
Oil pressure/external relief worked ok?

Hi Richie

Looking forward to see the beast running so i hope your going to video it ???

and share with the rest of us ;)

Wray

Yes,give it about 5 miles gentle cruising to make sure its all ok,then boost it :D  i like to put load on it as soon as possible,just a few pounds of boost seals them up really quick.

The external relief seems good,took a couple of goes to get the pressure where I wanted it,and I will have to adjust it some more as the break in oil is thicker than I will run normally so the pressure will change when I swap

cheers richie,uk

I am also looking forward to some running in vids :)

Congrats on some epic engineering Richie!

Does make it look easy  :o

I think I can mange that :)
cheers richie

which heads are you running at the moment, angle flows or the JPM ?

It will be great to see the different numbers and engine temps that either setup runs

good luck

I Know put a JPM on one side and a angle port on the other and you can tell which one is best but the direction the car pulls as your going down the drag strip

It's like some kind of soap opera on Katella.  ;D

Hmmmm? will a high output engine like the turbocharged ones require a higher oil pressure? There will be much more load on the bearings (rod bearings) would it be smart to turn up the pressure to avoid " breaking trough" the oil film, or is it smarter to be sure that the oil passes trough the bearings faster?? Any ideas or know how out there?

Sweet - well done - hope it all works as planned :)

Ron,this is the JPM headed version,I will see how it works,dynos and runs at the track then try the Angleflows.


cheers richie,uk

Up towards the sky :D

The way I understand it is that as hp[load] increases so does the pressure on everything else,I have tried as low as 40lbs oil pressure and as high as 100lbs and not seen any real evidence of noticable difference,however changing oil brand& viscosicity and type[mineral,semi and fully synthetic] makes a huge difference.But clean oil at the correct temperature is much more important,Also bearing material and quality make a huge difference


cheers richie,uk

Awesome Richie... way to go fella.

Cheers

Tom  ;D

Thinking of stepping up?  :o  :D

Well I got a chance to put a few miles on it today,it is so different to a 2332 :o
 So much smoother,i will do some more tommorow and then start to see what it feels like with some boost :) Maybe i will take the incar camera with me ;)

cheers richie,uk

Yes Richie,let us see and feel the POWER.  ;)

Sounds like fun.  8)

A finished car would be a start! ah, one day...

hope all is well Mat.

Cheers

Tom  ;)

No substitute for cc's Richie! take some nappies with you too for when that boost cuts in!

look forward to hearing about high 7's....

Cheers

Tom  ::)

Well? hehe :-)
Looking foward to seeing/hearing this monster move

Well I have been driving it every day,did do a 5 minute video incar clip but cant get it to upload to youtube,its either my net connection or I have saved it wrong,will try again

But it does drive really nice,power comes on so smooth,had it up to 17lbs boost now and its plenty fast enough for the street.Running it on E85 again now and will continue to tune it on that fuel for now.
I am going to retorque everything today then maybe take it to irwindale on thursday for a few gentle passes :)

cheers richie,uk

 ;)

so were is the EYE WATERING pump at some were in are neck of the woods?. keep up the good work. congrats. . UD.

Jeff,its up by LAX,havent found anywhere nearer yet

cheers richie,uk

I have put a few small incar clips up on my youtube account,my internet connection doesnt seem to allow me to put anything longer up,but you get the idea ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRZhjwuke6k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ8D8D_7dKg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLR46klwcrM


cheers richie,uk

 ;D

sounds like its hardly even working...smooth :o

Wauw, I'm really curious what it do on the strip.
Sounds awesome!

Seems like 0-10% throttle movement is enough for street usage :-)

Thanks for sharing Richie

Good work. Looks like Gumby's enjoying it too. 8)

Nice work. 8)

Where's you glovebox lid gone? You're not saving weight now :D

And nice to see the sun is shining. Don't forget to bring your shorts and flip flops when you come back in a few days. You'll need them to get through all the floods and rain, trousers & trainers just get too wet.

Frank

gumby has deffenetly( GOT WOOD ) ;D. i can loan you my off road tires for those NICE ROADS you seem to end up on.  8) 8) ;). UD . 

Was down in Cancun for the past week -- There was a couple leaving to go back to UK traveling on the shuttle back to the airport as us -- They were sweating (it was 24*C) and having to wear far too many clothes LOL -- they were laughing sayin all the clothes were actually mosquito repellant --

WOW Richie! Sounds both smooth and crispy. Bet the green man had a blast :D

Sounds very nice.


There good these 4" motors arnt they.

very cool !!

the sound is great, that low rumble, tingly!

G.R.U.N.T.

Well after the last few days of driving it and being happy with the way it is working,today I took the header & exhaust off to get them coated.One of the drawbacks of having the turbo where it sits on my car is heat gets drawn directly into the cooling fan,I am trying to minimise this and coating the entire exhaust will help alot.I should have it back by thursday then dyno time :)

Thanks to everyone for there positive comments,I know that what I am doing is not traditional "Cal look" but pushing the boundaries of what you can do to a Aircooled VW engine and keep it somewhat streetable was alot of what Cal look was about,and we have to keep up with all that modern rubbish people drive now ;)

cheers richie,uk

wow that's sounds awsome  ;D

Thanks for sharing and I'm looking forward to seeing it on the strip.

Wray

wow, build another one please......  ;D

100% respect.

Richie, on your next trip can you pick up a loaf of bread, a container of milk, and a stick of butter (http://tinyurl.com/5sjo3b) for me? ;D

--Eric

No problem,as long as you already have the tea bags?   ;D

cheers richie,uk

So smooth!

Oh and the weather seem to suck too...

 ;D

/Johan

Smooth?  Am I missing something here? Thought that was why people did it the modern way...to keep the tea in their cups while driving?
Are you saying there is a dark side to the modern way??   ;)

Congratulations with the truck motor Richie, it seems way to fast for back alleys  ::) :) 

Wow, that camera view brings back memories. Mainly driving to have Christmas dinner.  :D

Always nice to see the progress.  Sounds good. 8)

Richie, how about having a large diameter pipe from the back of the fan going down to a duct under the car somewhere? So the air the fan picks up isn't from alongside the turbo or the header?

I'm not sure but I don't think you'll have too much trouble there.  :P

 :D

Aint that the TROOTH!

Sounds awesome Richie, Thanks for taking the time to upload some clips!

I am going to do something like that but there are so many things in the way it will have to be 2 or 3 smaller tubes.

cheers richie,uk

Hey Richie -- can you see what i did -- a snorkel I guess -- -- worked very well

and it was only about an inch thicker at the fan intake

Sounds real sweet Mr Webb! Looking forward to the dyno run ;) Matt

Got the header and exhaust back from the coaters,will put it back on later and go have some more fun :)

cheers richie,uk

Very nice Richie!

lookin SHINEY  :) is that for some show car your building :P ;)   great job!!  UD .

What do you mean?.....he only builds polished show cars doesn't he?!  :D :P 8)

(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/mr_fonzerelli2/Volksworld%202006/IMGP4883-1.jpg)

hi richie, nice work.

i see you mentioned that you deleted the relief plungers, welded the original doghouse cooler location shut and ran the Scat pressure relief filter head, care to explain how this works?

the filter head is fitted on the oil filter mount?

how about your oil cooler? from the pump to filter and filter to cooler? what oil cooler you using?

appreaciate if you have pics for these.

thanks.

No problem,1st the oil cooler passages are welded up as when the case is opened up for this size cylinders it cuts into the oil passage down from the cooler on number 3 cylinder,so a rod is machined to be an interferance fit in this passage,pressed in then sealed through welding the top end,so the otheroil cooler hole is now obsolete so welded shut as well.
It is set up like a normal full flow case,oil out the pump cover to the filter,then to a remote cooler[a mocal 18 row] and back to the case,the only real difference is the oil pressure is controlled by a valve in the oil filter mount/head and has a 3rd oil line that takes excess oil back to the sump.

cheers richie 

ok, thanks richie, i understand now, also after reading everything on the other thread on 4 inch bore.

yes, i think Jaycee also has a similar oil filter mount with the 3rd oil line. sweet.

richie, just wonderings as I saw the pic of the e85 gas station shot, Did you buy the station wagon from clark griswold ?. bill

now thats funny ;D

The Family Truckster! :D

You knockin my Jeep?  Don't let Sal E see you.  Dave Rhoads

Its a mid 80s jeep and its the best workhorse I ever used :)  As Dave R mentioned its his and I just borrow it when needed,it has proberly had more aircooled engines carried in it than most on here have ever seen :o
And no one bothers you in it,it looks like it has a disease or 2 :D

Anyway back to the topic

cheers richie   

yep! got more vids?

it is very impressive. can't say anything else besides what has allready been said. it truelly is 'callook' in a modern way.

That a great Jeep apart from it top speed is about 58mph and it take about 10 minutes to get to it. :D

Just like your bug!

it's just too easy.

That thing's like 'Christine', all it'll play is Lyndsay Buckingham's Holiday Road and it seems to be hung up on pump 5.

 8)


Your Jeep?  >:(  ;D


I think that's part of its charm.

(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk175/Sal--E/Wagoneer1.jpg)


OK... (better run fast, hopefully see it at Sacramento, Vegas or Fontana sometime)!

(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk175/Sal--E/Head.jpg)

Richie -- That 850 you were looking for

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/cto/1537493576.html

Hi Richie...

How's the engine performing? Hows the Case handling the boost? what boost you put in? 

Its been a while as my focus was on the new cabrio, but now I have some time I am back to the old car.

Just started on version 2,just mocking up to see what needs doing to the case etc, but I do have pretty much everything to put it together

Looks very nice...

Please put it on pallet and ship to Dubai :)

Your nail polish is a nice colour  ;D

 ;D  ;D

 ;)that's what happens when you drop a well oiled crank onto yer toe :D

Come on now Lee you know its not mine if its green, now if it was yellow maybe ;D

Anyway brief update, got everything figured out in the case I think, got to get a little machining done to the front oil pump area as the pump I am going to use is too big in diameter on the mounting area and doesn't fit flush and I also need to narrow the crank gear a little as its real close to the case so will get them dropped off today, I ordered pistons yesterday so when they arrive and case is back i can do cylinder length

cheers Richie

Did you change to a TF1 case ?

Udo

Looks TF-1 case ;)

Hi Udo

yes I did, I sold everything except the heads from this engine a couple of years ago to fund other projects and have been slowly gathering parts to build it again, I got the case earlier this year and got the thrust conversion done on it by Shawn while I was back home, it was sitting here ready when I got back out here

cheers Richie

Nice to see that you are back on this project again  :)
I don`t remember, what was your PB with this car?

9.23@152mph 8)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIZnvWwLiMA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiP7ZzrRgxU

cheers Richie

nice to see that project getting a re-boost  ;D

and excuse my ignorance, but what is a TF1 case? who makes them and what are some of the main features? ( i see type4 bearing conversion and the oil outlets,???)

http://precisionalloy.com/pages/tf-1.html

Some info here Nicolas  ;)

Nice

Richie can i have one  ;D

Cheers

Wray

thank you.

Case or Engine :o ;D


Should have more updates this week, hope to get case back tomorrow, I had a slight change of plan so more work is being done to it


cheers Richie

Ha Ha Both like the shinny bits they'd go well with all my old S**ters ::)

Did you ever manage to dig out those pictures for me?  ;)

need something to cheer me up at work  :(

Cheers

Wray

So how did it run last night any good times?

Cheers

Wray

Last night for you is still today for him. Haha He's probably still at the track.

Jings you are right i am exactly 12 hours ahead as not even in the UK :o

do they have a web cam as could have been watching it instead of working!

Cheers

Wray

No :o  I was renewing my license so have to do 6 observed passes, 2 60 fts, 2 1/2 passes then 2 under 6.39, after the 3rd pass I heard a noise and quick inspection shows possible valve seat moved,number 4 exhaust valve is not shutting properly so that was it for the night, it still has the old 2386 engine in it so will get it out and torn down today and see how bad it is

cheers Richie

Back to the thread.

Crank gear has been narrowed and I got that back, still waiting for the case but it was nearly done when saw it today while collecting the pistons.

They are special order with dished top, heavy duty thick wall wrist pins and gas ports, hopefully they are plenty good enough for what we hope to achieve.

cheers Richie

They look really nice Richie!

Best rgs
-K-

I like that thickwall wristpin.

I got the case back this morning, all converted for a roller cam set up 8)  This is why it took a little longer to do

With the case back I could mock it all up for cylinder length, that is now done so next cylinders can be shortened, I got these ARP through studs, nuts and washers as an upgrade for the supplied case hardware

and the pump fits, figuring out a suitable pulley is the next problem, this fits but i want to try get a large a diameter as I can on it to keep fan speed a little reasonable

Mmmm Interesting

Quick couple of questions

1) does the roller cam set up give you any more space for stroke bore or is it just a better more modern reliable setup?

2)Is it going back on the street ;D

Cam timing and lift can be far more radical with a roller cam.

What cylinders are you using Richie?

Nice Richie!

I see the case is machined for some kind of support box on the outside of the roller lifters? Or what is it? Not much meat left on the side of the case  ;D

It's machined like that so he can install the lifers and wishbone as a unit from the outside.   Then a machined piece with the pushrod tube countersinks gets bolted to the side.

1] No more room, but with this case which has 0.100 cam drop there is already more room for stroke if needed


2] Yes, there is something i want to do and it involves lots of street driving

AA's

Exactly :)  It has a thick plate that fixes to the outside to allow more room as the lifters are so long, then the pushrod tubes sit in this plate

I havent got them yet, they are still being machined but I knew that wouldnt stop me getting stuff done yet

cheers Richie

Methinks that either the Power Tour dudes or the Fastest crowd are in for a surprise........
 8)

Have you seen the dry sump pulley setup from vwspeedshop? when i was going to do dry sump it was either that, or a small pulley and 356 top pulley. but the speedshop had something like 3 different sized top pulleys for different speeds from stock ratio to racing... maybe worth a look?

I used them on my 2789 and they were far from round when I measured them with stress plates on.
Both barrel shaped aksial and clover leaf radial (yes, I know how to spell aksial but my daughter spilled something on my keyboard so no I have no cross  :D ).
They were OK after some work though.

They will be checked thoroughly and sized to the required piston to cylinder clearance :)

Oh and good to see you back and posting again 8)

cheers Richie

I'm thinking Drag Week? ;)

Drag Week?

Drag Week.  ;)

Used to be Worlds Fastest Street Car thing didn't it? (or am I just showing my age a bit?  :D)

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=drag+week&biw=1920&bih=910&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=P9ZvVKa2HeXHmwWRq4HwCQ&ved=0CCoQsAQ

http://www.hotrod.com/events/2014-hot-rod-drag-week/34053fe5-9d04-46e6-8b37-5b5be2ce74b4/

That is the most amazing challange..

Udo

..and how cool would it be if a beetle ran in it?

This for real Richie??

their was a squareback in dragweek this year. its fastest time was 20 sec which was awarded when it mist a pass :), default value

I am hoping this billet top pulley i got last week will help get the fan speed to a sensible level

I have hesitated to reply for a few days for a variety of reasons, but yes this is what I am now re-building the car to do, my budget may not allow me to attend next year but I will do it and we will be taking 2 cars, there is no class a VW really fits in but just to finish will be the goal, we are aiming to run 10s every day and then if I make the drive to the end,I will turn it up and see what it will do on the last day :o ;D

cheers Richie

Way cool!!  :)

There was some discussion today about a joining roadtrip!  ;D

Sounds like a plane and rental car to me, who else is going? :-D

Screw that, put your car on a boat and come do it as well?  :o ;D

Extremely cool Richie, for so many reasons! Way to go mate!!

It would definetly handle the open road. Kalle, share a 40ft?  ::)

Yes! I just need to build a 5.00 sec Docol chassi Pro Mod car with a carbon fiber body and order a Pro Line 4000hp engine/ecu package with twin fuel systems first. In it to win it!

-K-

Kalle,
I volunteer to be the guy with the laptop in your team  ;D
Jyrki

I will make the tea ;D :D


cheers Richie

Nothing happened on this engine for a few days,hoping to have the cam & cylinders next week, but I did get the heads of the old engine back after deciding to get all the valve seats replaced as one was loose, so put that engine back together and back in the car again, so hoping to go out this weekend and get some more license passes done, I have swapped the clutch out as well to try something else and see if it would be more suitable for the new engine, hopefully it will hold enough and be a little easier driving around

cheers Richie

Yeah, not unimportant thing @ Dragweek  ;D  ;)

Richie,

what lifters are those ?

Pekka

Look like Iski

Got the roller cam, hopefully its the correct grind :o ;D

I did not find youre grind on this list but if your car is yellow I thinks its okay  ;D
http://www.actionimport.com/Tech_Files/cam_information.htm

Any specs you are willing to give out? Duration @.050

I got the cam dialled in and everything checked for clearance now,it has 394 thou lift at the lifter so quite mild, but our trip is now over so its all bagged up and put away for a while

cheers Richie

I was asking about duration not lift.
Coming together quit nicely!

Well its that time again, old engine is out cabrio for new pistons and cylinders and freshen up for USW in Vegas, this engine is back out the boxes and on bench, need to collect the cylinders and get head studs ordered next and should be good for final mock up, then clean everything and put it together

cheers Richie

Good luck....you will never stop goiing faster ;)

The coolest thing at drag week this year (and all other years too btw) is seeing pro-mod cars idling down the freeway with wheelie bars, shutes and tow hitches no less! Almost hilarious, but soooo cool!

Will the cabrio also have a tow hitch and pulling a U-haul trailer?  ;D

Yes but trailer will just have a gennie in it? to provide electric to boil kettle    ;D


But seriously just need to get this finished and drive it around and see how practical it is, fuel consumption could be an issue as want to keep the standard tank like I use now

cheers Richie

 :D

Richie, You must run a surge tank yes?

No, never seen the need for it

cheers Richie

Ok, still waiting on custom length head studs, Raceware seem a little behind right now,but the roller lifter covers were finished, heads and cylinders mocked up to check were pushrod tubes needed to be with the JPM heads in the lifter covers, then they were machined in. I got it all back now so cleaning will commence and bottom end can go together :)

Awesome Richie.  I went back and watched the videos of the V1 of this motor.  I can't wait to see what this one is capable of.

On page 8-9 you commented about the location of the turbo and it pumping heat into the fan.  Did you notice a difference in temps with the coated exhaust?  Any additional plans for v2?  Would a Porsche style fan help?

I never did get enough miles on it to reach any real conclusion, but I know from running coated J tubes on 2&4 and raw header on 1&3 on engine in car at moment that the coated part has over 125f less heat on outside measuring with a Laser heat gun so its definitely keeping heat inside better
Not totally convinced by the 911 fan and shroud set ups so not tried that route, maybe if you could seal fan ring to outside say under license plate area with hole cut under plate it might be better to keep heat out, bit like a type 3 fan is sealed to body of car

cheers Richie

hi Richie

I take it that you can use standard lifters with these cases as you converted this one. Couldn't see what crank you're using 90MM ?

Is a 4" bore case the same money as the 94mm case?
 
Anyway great thread  8)

Hi Ron, yes they come ready for standard type lifter, cases all cost same whatever bore size, I don't think I put what crank size I am using but not that big  ;D

cheers Richie

So many secrets at this level of performance.   :)

 :)

Udo

i want to see 64mm  ;D

I had to mess around with a few things on the case like the small 8mm case studs being to long or to short, just double check everything then get the other old engine back together after fitting new head studs and off the stand so I could get this on. Now finally I can start assembly :)

Dry sump pump?

Yes :)

Good progress today, need the head studs to arrive to go any further

Lifters in, covers on, pump on, cylinders needed a little clearance for case through bolt washers

Test fit cylinders, then clean and load pistons in and re check deck height

Do you mind sharing the stroke and rod length?

How big is that dish?

I had my old AS41 apart and getting jet-rinsed in prep for a good clean and scrub.
Your pics remind me of what mine must ONCE have looked like!  :D

Pink goop on bearings, a particular brand of assembly lube over there, or just a thin smear of cam lube?

Its Torco MPZ :)

Got these this afternoon, another piece of the puzzle :)

Have you ever used the Kramm lox before? I was going to get some.

No, but look nicer than the regular lock they supply so thought I would try them, oh and dish is 10cc :) Had to look back to find my notes

cheers Richie

Hi dude,

What lengths do the Raceware studs come in?

I was looking at ARP ones.

Cheers, Nick

Just write to Randy Hubbard at Raceware and he will do any length or combination for you.

Hi Nick

as frallan wrote, anything you want, they do off the shelf VW sets or custom to your specs which is what I needed as the normal ones are to long for this, takes a few weeks but worth the wait :)

cheers Richie

Hi Richie,
             Do you have a pic of the heads installed with the pushrod tubes fitted? I'm using a pauter case with jpm heads and the push rod tube angle seems excessive. I would like to see how yours sit with your custom pushrod tube block. Thanks.

David Gouk 

Hi David

I will do when I get to it next week, need to shorten the push rod tubes still, from my experience with the pauter cases on my builds they have moved the tube location to work with there heads, we have welded the holes up in other companies heads and re machined them to align better.

cheers Richie

Thanks Richie.

porn  :o

David, with regular 2 piece tubes its just about ok, decided today to open the head tube hole up for pauter tubes and move the hole slightly at same time, going to hve to clearance the head fins underneath to clear the pauter tube as well

cheers Richie

So with the heads back I carried on fitting etc, next issue was the cylinders weren't clearing the head studs enough so pushing studs out at top. So did some clearancing on cylinders, got them to fit better and put heads together with mock up springs in and bolted them on.  With rockers on I could do geometry, well with the roller lifter being so long and this not having much stroke the adjustable pushrod was much to long, so cut an old pushrod down, tapped it inside and made a short adjustable pushrod :)
I got geometry done fairly easy, then check lift on all valves to know what to shim springs to on each one. I borrowed two  1/2inch :o  pushrods the correct length as I figured if they clear then the 7/16 ones I am going to use will easily
The pushrod is so close to head on ex pushrod that I tried a pauter tube to gain some more clearance and everything looks good with that so heads back off to get opened for those tubes then I can assemble them and they can be fitted ready for pushrods to arrive :)  

looking good !

Thanks Richie, That's exactly how mine look. I have the pauter tubes as well. I will have to machine the seal surface at the correct angle on the heads. Thanks for taking the time to reply. David

Thanks to excellent service from Geers engineering I dropped heads off in morning and had them back in afternoon, clearanced for pauter tubes and good to go 8)

So I started with pulling all the head studs out, then cleaning the threads and re fitting with a little locktite to seal them up, re fitted pistons into freshly cleaned cylinders and started building it up

With the heads on and torqued down to racewares specs I test fitted the pushrod tubes to determine length and that they cleared everything, I then set them up and fitted them, I also got a couple of deliveries to day so could start on the plumbing

Having decided to use an autocraft pick up to scavenge oil from sump I then had to clearance the case to fit it how I wanted it, so lots of tape and plastic to seal everything up and I carefully ground away at the case to allow it to fit.
Even though I didn't have pushrods yet something made me decide to refit the rockers to check clearance, and I found the rocker shaft mounting blocks just about touching the springs, to close to ignore so rockers apart and ground each block until I had plenty of clearance then all back together.
I put the J tubes off the other engine so I have more idea of what room I have to plumb the pump and scavenge system  

nice work Richie ! that is turning out nice  :o

Richie, What valve springs are you running? over the nose pressure? Thanks David

What does 20ft/lbs equate to on the nut for the head torque? looking nice! that pump is a serious unit too!

He's got the extension almost perpendicular to the head of the torque wrench, so it's effect is near zero.

Richie, I noticed you have forgotten to install the stud for the thermostat bracket.

I thought it was .... Torque setting on the wrench = actually torque on the nut X normal length of the wrench / extended length of wrench?

i loathe working it out at work if we have to use a crows foot ect  ::)

 :D    To heavy ;)

They are PSI springs, 675lbs

cheers Richie

I have been beating and grinding tin and shroud to try get it to fit tight, its difficult with raised roof on case and wide cylinders but getting close now  :)

Looks good Ritchie.

Is the engine 1/2" wider than stock? 1" wider?
And finally, is the Scat tin and shroud the best option do you think if you can't find OEM doghouse shrouds?

Thanks :)  Exhaust stud to exhaust stud its pretty close to stock, I actually trimmed a little of each cylinder tin where it touches case as it was to wide, its the other way that cylinders are big, pulley to flywheel way, does that make sense? For this application with no doghouse oil cooler to me yes, 100% its the best to use, I haven't tried all brands and styles of aftermarket with cooler so that's another can of worms ;)

cheers Richie

that tin fits better than mine

if it doesn't fit, get a bigger hammer!  ;)

 :o  Shhhhhhhh, you will give away my secrets  ??? :D ;D

Looking great.

Do you have a plan for an oil cooler?

Hi Richie,

Nice project again,thanks for getting us all motivated this way  ;)
I have 3 questions for you;

1) I suppose the copper shims will be your "fuse" in case something may happen?Are they the "regular" ones sold on the market or "one-off 's?"Never thought of using real " fire-rings"  as i think with the surface on the 4" cyl. you could do it?
2) Why the choice of this (brand??)oilpump,and not an autocraft 2 or 3 stage-one for example?
3) Are you running titanuim valves on both in/ex ?

Thanks in advance,keep going mate .

Rgds Steve

Hi Steve

copper gaskets are more of a protection for the head surface, I have never torched just the gasket, always the head as well so they don't save it from that, I think this is a much higher quality pump, and yes Ti intake and exhaust valves


cheers Richie

Richie are we going to hear this engine run. Good choice on the case, i am thinking of buying one for my build.

Yes, well it does you will, I am now on a different continent to the engine so will be a while, there is quite a back order for cases so if you want one anytime soon you need to order it now

cheers Richie

looking awesome!

Coming along nicely Richie

If you put some serious street miles on this engine, keep an eye on the wear patterns on those lifters. The tall pushrod cup is a bonus for our otherwise long pushrods, but the increase in pushrod angle will reflect wear into the lifter and bore. If they are indeed Isky's, also check the clearance between the edge of the roller and the inside of the lifter bore. The rollers on my  RedZones wore grooves into the bore after 4K miles; my Pauters have been golden after 16K.

Will do

Plan is to get a 1000 or so street miles on it and then take it apart and see how everything is doing so will check those areas carefully, haven't had any issues with my pauters in 4 years or so but not to many street miles, just hard track abuse but they look good still and no signs of wear, do you see any wear on the rollers themselves ?

cheers Richie

The rollers themselves looked great (both the Iskys and Pauters). On the Iskys, it appeared that either the bevel on the edge of the roller wheel was ground incorrectly, or there was too much sideplay.

I got a little time on this so ordered some missing parts, 1st to arrive was a new turbo, the technology is moving so fast it made sense to get something more modern so I did ;) Just waiting on the header tubing to arrive so I can get on and make that

cheers Richie

Nice

Looks like that thing will create black holes!

Hey Ritchie, what the hell is that JCB Fastrac down the road gonna do now you've pinched the poor blokes turbo?
 ;D

As I am now waiting on parts that were supposed to have arrived 10 days ago and the correct dry sump tank as they sent one that is to small I have been getting all the old stuff[header intake etc] stripped out and engine in for test fit and so I can start figuring where to place all the new stuff. All fits and room on oil pump which was an unknown till now :)

Looks great Richie

UPS truck just came 8)   all the stainless tube & bends arrived, still couple of things missing which sucks as that was what the supposed hold up was ::)  Still I can get on with most of it now :)

Looking good Richie!

Finally got the collector yesterday a month late ::) so was able to make something out of all those tubes ;)   Will fit the wastegate next and make the actual exhaust, make the intake up from turbo to engine, then take it all off for final welding. Did some more engine tin fitment while I was waiting for the collector and got a few small things figured out, still plenty to do but getting there :)

cheers Richie

I like the look of that leaned out version of the cab  8)

I like it that you seem to have made a considerable effort to make an equal length system.
Most VW tuners don't seem to believe that makes a difference in spool and power. I do  ;)

It wil sure have a better effect on spooling
But as i have to make one for my car
The problem is the  space needed for this header
You need space some of us dont have that .
Btw looks good so far
I guess it will perform good

Gr

500-700 rpms earlier spool depending on the AR and the turbo itself. I would be a lot more worried about the T-section but HEY that's me. After all we are only talking about back pressure. Right Mr Airspeed? (very fitting nickname btw👍)

-BB-

 8)
Cheers BB!

Don't worry about that, version 33 is in my head already & parts ordered, was just going to use that to get it running now if I could but out of time this trip, and it did make 570hp to the wheels with that fitted so cant be all bad ;) 

Thanks :)  Trying to do it best I can, only downside is they end up quite long and may loose some heat from it, that's one reason I did it in stainless tube

cheers Richie

With a stock firewall and package tray it would be impossible to do with turbo placement I wanted[ far forward opposite side to driver] but you can get pretty close if you run smallish turbo at back of car






Hope so ;D


cheers Richie

Like to think every version is better than the last :o  Wont know till I try it though

cheers Richie

Holy crap!!  ::)

Its alive :o ;D 8)   


A year on from this 


 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVtjQQcIoFg



and it is ready to go again with its new combo :)  Will do some tuning this week then if its all ok take it to track next week


cheers Richie

Hi Richie,
When you ran the 8, am I right in thinking that was with a 2387cc motor?
If so I can't wait to see what the big motor does :)

A simple tee manifold does wonders for turbos, what actually goes on? They work great with blow through carb and some quote great atomisation, but then again they still work well with port injection, and I'm not sold on equal header length either, OEMs still prefer neat packaging over spaghetti primary's, tho variable vane helps road cars, but more to go wrong on a racer, can't remember seeing any serious cars with it, and many current big name Rallycross motors go for the shortest possible primary for maximum energy to the turbine, again anti lag may need factoring in, I have gone equal length and still had to drive round lag, my next one will use the shortest p/pipes possible.

I have noticed that equal length does sound a LOT smoother, but I'm sure shorter is better in this application.

Right.  Short primary means maximum heat in the exh gases so there's maximum energy to spin the impeller.  Long tubes means a lot of heat gets radiated out, reducing the energy stored in the gasses.

Leave you all to decide who knows best ::)    I am off to Street car super nationals 12 in Las Vegas with a working driving car  ;D

cheers Richie

Best of Luck Richie!! I hope you do well in Vegas.. 8)

Thanks Jeff :) 

Good luck , keep us updated :-)

Udo

Good luck! Have a great time!

So, how was it...?  :)

Hello Richie,

I was reading this topic from the beginning, sorry for the flashback but I'm intrigue by a detail on your first combo...

What kind of bearing do you use on the first main with your all T4 mains crank into a cb perf... would say BMW but on the pics, yours seems to be a OEM rear bearing with "integrated thrust washers"?

Ps:i fail to copy pics, page 2 reply 53

The case was align bored to type 4 size, then I used type 4 bearings, the bearing behind cam gear and the middle bearing do need narrowing to work though

cheers Richie

Hello Richie,

Thanks  for details,  so are they  "tri-metal"?

I am not sure what you mean?

cheers Richie

Hello,

I mean they are made on a iron base and not only aluminium and other wearing materials like "New bearing"

Steel backed?

Thanks, i mean steel backed.... Forget my english vocabulary when tired..

I have changed the thread title to suit the direction this build has gone now its official  ;) and will continue to post progress and preparation for Drag week in this thread as makes most sense to me to keep it all in one place.
When I ran car last November I had a couple of sensor issues so 1st job as to swap them out, one was map sensor and were it was placed in below on intake was a little close to exhaust so I removed it and welded it all up, then made a new mount and welded that on, fitted the 4 bar map sensor and adapted the wiring and re mapped the ECU to suit. Also made some changes to how the 2nd set of injectors are phased in as it was difficult to tune before.
My plan is to put some street miles on it over next couple of weeks and also run it at Bakersfield in a couple of weeks time to check it all works at higher boost than you can use on the road ;D

cheers Richie 

And a short wheel base car with no sissy sticks needs all the help it can get for weight distribution :o

I thought about this for a long time and tried several different versions before this, with our cars layout it is always a compromise in some way and a half decent ECU can make up for lag etc on the 1/4 mile and this isn't built for low rpm boost on the street, the engine has enough torque off boost to get me from track to track without stressing anything to much I hope 8)

cheers Richie

I am sure with 55mph on those highways and the MS230 multi-finned heads, its a walk in the park for the engine to cruise for longer distances  ;)
Be sure to dial in plenty of extra advance and use high AFR's on those highway cruises for cool and clean running (if the engine likes it).

My only drawback is with the dry sump set up top pulley speed isn't as good as I would like, thinking about swapping 4th gear for something a little shorter so fan is turning quicker at cruising mph to help.

cheers Richie

Awesome project Richie.  I can't wait to see the results.  I bet it will be one hell of a week!

Well if any hotrod VW guys ever wondered if a turbocharged, fuel injected, 4 inch bore, stroker engine can / would live on the street and be able to be raced, what happens here will tell. Thanks Richie for posting this information and keeping us informed! With your history and experience Richie, if anyone is capable of doing this you surely are. I think and hope that HotRod magazine wil take note and give you some attention.

Best of Luck!

maybe keep the fan speed low with the DS pulley for burst safety and a small power gain to boot, the DS system will run very cool oil temps for sure, we run piston oil jets for turbo but i disabled them now im atmo' as it had too cold oil temps, also keep plenty of oil in the tank for that launch g, tank surge can still happen with too low oil level. ..

Do you already have a 356 (= smaller size) top pulley?

Even smaller than that, its 88mm outer diameter and I have shimmed it as far apart in middle as I can to get belt in deeper so tricking it to think its even smaller ;D

Thanks guys, been a long road already just getting to this point, with the car being 8000 miles away from me most of the year and only getting a few weeks on it each year it has been hard work but if it was easy everyone would do it ;) ;D

You could maybe build a cog belt setup.  Much smaller pulley diameter without slipping.

or

Since you have space, put a vacuum pump to the left, run a belt from the crankshaft to the VP and then from the VP over to the fan.  Size the pulleys as required.

I was just going to ask about a custom gen pulley :) What is the pulley ratio? Have you done all the normal tricks, FI venturi ring, etc? I would hate to see you make a compromise on gearing if it isn't absolutely necessary.

What will you be using for fuel?

I think bottom pulley is 112mm, no nothing like venture ring yet, with turbo and header sitting forward of inlet into shroud I need to look a ducting air in 1st and see how it cools. The gearing is to tall anyway as its geared for the other set up to go 160mph plus and I wont need that in this, bigger problem is getting it swapped in time scale while I am here

Fuel, 93 octane or E85 I think as they both a readily available around area we have to drive, if it has any cooling deficiency then E85 to help keep it under control

I run 185/80R15 normally around the highways, 26.6" diameter. It's going on my Super (if I ever finish the thing......  ::) too.
Until I hitch up the trailer with the dragbike, or the camping stuff, or something that weighs 1/2 ton, then I change rear tyres to 195/70R14 for a diameter of 24.7".
Our speed limits are 10% lower here while towing, so it raises the engine revs, and therefore fan speed, up 7% to help keep it cool.
Tall tyres for speed at the 1/4, short tyres for fan speed at low road revs.

Did cross my mind but I am hoping to do the whole event on the same wheels and tyres so will use a DOT drag radial treaded tyre so that rules out different tyre heights for road and track

cheers Richie

That is to cool Mr Webb.
Hats off.

Venturi ring helps my engine about 5 degrees celcius on hours of highway cruising, for your info.
It is a ten minute pop rivet or spotweld job.

Have fun.

i am only going to say this because i know you are a 'function before looks'- guy  ;D

have you thought about a serpentine belt with tensioner and 2 pulleys for the fan… swapping that is easy and you don't need several belts and setups. maybe even make one that is reversible with one big end and one small side. it can be done with a tensioner.

Who does a set up like that for dry sump & type 1 alternator fitting?

VWspeedshop?

http://vwspeedshop.com/product.php?productid=16838&cat=485&page=1 (http://vwspeedshop.com/product.php?productid=16838&cat=485&page=1)

Thanks Eddie, real world feedback is always good 8) The claims on the webpage seem at little exagerated ;) I ordered one on thursday to try it anyway and see if it helps at all


cheers Richie

I think that bottom pulley is to big to fit with a pauter pump, but have asked someone I know with one to measure it, it needs to be smaller than 120mm diameter ideally

that looks like a decent setup at a decent price.
 i was also thinking of a pulley in two parts like the original, but with different angles on the sides (front and backside). that way you turn them around and have the belt lay deeper then normal, but you'd need two belts and still the shims… not sure if this an option as the nut sits on the inside (short shaft). but it maybe could be made with some thouht put into it.

anyway good to see this topic back on top of my reading list.  ;D

pulley's can be machined  :P

Yes but my time is very limited here so its got to be done now, not wait months for a machinist to get round to doing it :o :D

If it gets too hot on the cruise section while towing Ritchie, then it might be time to get the "bush mechanic" repair skills a thought.

I've sometimes rigged up a windscreen washer bottle to feed a patio mister (or really fine-spray irrigation mister) into the cooling fan intake.
Knocks HEAPS of temp off as a last resort.........

Pssst! Don't tell anyone........     ;)

^^^^ That's actually a pretty brilliant solution for this application.

but that would make it watercooled and would defy the whole thing he is trying to prove here!!  :o  :D

Serious question - does it create steam? I'm guessing the quantity of water isn't that great but it's got to go somewhere!

I first used it in a Square in the tropics, and it still worked well there even with the humidity.
It was suggested to me by an old bloke to reduce temps just before they spiked hard and you had to stop, there were lots of old Volksies around there back then.
Dunno about steam, I never noticed any. I used it on Beetles that were already really hot and pulled over, and didn't notice any steam rising up there either.
I guess it's possible I spose, I've never thought about it for long coz you use so little water for such a short time that I didn't think it was an issue.

ACVW equivalent of taking a hot car thru a carwash..........
(Roadkill Jag episode! Hahahaha!)

I tried something like this years ago, running air to water intercooler and figured out as I needed to empty it after a pass anyway why not before I got to pits, so had a small screen washer pump hooked up to water tank, then same principle with a jet aimed at fan in shroud and turned it on once on return road driving back to pits, not sure how much it cooled and didn't empty the thank enough so stopped doing it after a few goes

Looking forward to watching this year even more now.  :)
Have fun out there.

A big oil cooler with a electric fan, mounted in a good spot is what I would add to keep the temp down. Not sure what oil cooler you got on this car..?

All this cooling talk... What turbo do you have on the streetlegal cab?  ;D

A special one ;)

It will have 2, at moment it has one "medium size" one but its a lot easier to add a 2nd one with the packaging issues I have with turbo/header etc in way. Just waiting on some fittings to arrive and will plumb it in  :)


cheers Richie

Ahhh, come on! A little info then? What brand? How much lbs flow?  ;)

 :D  Started as a Garrett, but its all custom, based on t4 housing, from memory think its 67mm billet wheel, flowed cover, billet backing plate,ceramic bearing center, V band In & out etc etc.

Ah! a precision ~900hp capable turbo! Very nice! Not sure if you need that much hp, but it'll do fine I'am sure  ;D

It was ordered to leave a little room for the new engine I am doing that might be going in a Green LSR car :o ;)

Now that would be s/th! We need to talk when you get back from Drag week 4 sure!  :) :)

I have put some miles on it this week, showed up a few holes in the map so worked on that and it drives pretty good now, also found the oil cooler wasn't getting enough air flow over it in stop go traffic so have moved it to hopefully a better place. With all the turbo/header/dry sump tank etc being above and around gearbox there isn't a lot of room to work with.
Still waiting on the Drag radials to come, was supposed to ship on 13th but now been told it will be another 2 weeks so will have to test it with the slicks next weekend, not to critical as still working on the boost part of mapping anyway
It does seem to get some attention driving around with quite a few comments and thumbs up 8) one particular car following me for a while, a Mazda MX5[Miata] with a whole catalogue of bolt on junk & stickers that looked like the wheels are falling off ::)  that keep coming along side and revving the engine to get my attention but just got ignored ;)

cheers Richie

How did you resist the temptation to show him the power? :)

I don't follow.. ALL cars revving should be shown the brake lights  ;D

You kids :D ;D   




And my golf cart could beat the stupid Mazda, don't need to prove the cabrio can  ::) ;D

Amen!

Did not know that you grew too old to fool idiot drivers  ;D  ;)

I just agree its a fine line to becoming that idiot driver yourself: street racing has altready killed too many good people...

This is not Oklahoma and there are no TV crews around ;)   And besides this was in rush hour traffic, not a good place to be making boost :o ;D

As I am doing a few changes to the engine I thought I would keep it on original thread for reference so will update this as I go along :)

Good thinking!

One of the compromises I made last time was on the was on the fan speed, with the big pauter pump and the biggest bottom pulley that would clear it even the smallest available top pulley gave us a ratio way off stock and much lower than even power pulley ratio gives, also the bottom pulley was so close to the pump that to change a fan belt would involve either removing crank pulley or the oil pump.
My idea to solve this was a serpentine belt set up but again nothing available would give us anywhere near stock fan speed so only solution was to make something which is what we are now doing :) The finished pulley in pic is smallest I can find & what we are using for measurements for everything except diameter ;)


We also have the gearbox apart as when it was fixed last time some wear on 3rd gear was noted and I don,t want to take any chances this time so it is being replaced with everything else being checked while apart, and also we are adding a sensor to measure input shaft speed

cheers Richie   

Nice job on the pulleys!
What were the signs of the former pulley ratio being too small?

As old ECU didn't monitor head temp there is no exact science but we are now the Fueltech and it has the potential to scare me :o :D ;D, stock ratio is about 1.57, and we were about 1.36 so at 3500rpm cruising fan is spinning nearly 500rpm slower. one other of our considerations is less availability of E85 this time so if we are running on only 91octane pmp fuel it will need all help it can get on street drives I think

cheers Richie

Gday Ritchie.
Some of the green and red tractors/headers (John Deere, Case IH, Meeow Cat if you must) had alternators with really small multirib pulleys, under 2" diameter (ex-John Deere Parts  ;) ).
Since you're in that area, hahaha, maybe worth a look?

https://www.google.com/search?channel=mac_bm&q=john+deere+9650+alternator+pulley&tbm=isch&source=univ&client=safari&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjYkd7n2LLhAhUFk3AKHf7FD6sQsAR6BAgJEAE&biw=1174&bih=644#imgrc=UeFVnpBh2KdNuM:

Thanks mate 8)

I understand the concern! Didn't realize you cruised on E85 last year, but on the upside: you probably need a lot less fill-ups when cruising on 91  :D

Will the stock ratio, the very good 'traction' of a multi-rib pulley and the high RPM of dragracing not be a problem for the fan?

We are going to have 2 different top pulleys so the track only one slows fan right down to stop that exact problem :)

Whoops, one wheelie to many maybe? ;)

No such thing as too many wheelies ........  ;D

Gearbox is all back together, with added input shaft sensor this time 8)

Looking good   ;D

All back together, quick drive round block to check it all works and now will load it into trailer for
TNT@fontana tomorrow :)

good luck and have fun, very impressive stuff you do!

How did it go Richie

Not wonderful, the tps failed on 1st pass,plastic tang on inside broke off >:(  but I figured a way to get round it enough to run car so we made 2 more passes but could only run on wastegate spring as all the add ons needed to activate 2step/boost control etc need tps signal to know when to start, good news was gearbox worked good and input shaft sensor works so some positives, and its better that tps failed now than in Virginia at start of drag week!!!

It might be good to take some extra sensors to drag week to be sure?

Hmm those TPS are all plastic and weak looking I noticed...

Drag week is done,no?
How did it go?

Henk!!!

September.

Race Week has ended

Yes Erlend is correct, its not until september so I will fly out next month and prepare car etc then we will tow both cars 2500miles to get to start!!!

Oh sorry,my mistake.
Have fun. ;D

Henk!!!

Hello! I'm looking for a KIDD Pulley. Unfortunately I can not find it on the internet. Where did you get yours from? Thank you.
Greeting Conny

http://dev.dunebuggywarehouse.com/kidd-racing-dry-sump-alternator-pulley.html


 :)

Thank you!  ;D

Well it finally all worked as intended on Sick week last week, not many Street cars going to 60ft or ET like that on a DOT tire[not slick] with no sissy sticks either ;D

You and Mr. Dalton really took it to the V8 guys last week, fantastic show from both of you and congrats on the big wins in the yellow car!

Thanks, yep I think we surprised a few of them, the stock look of the cars helps with decklid fully shut etc ;)