The Cal-look Lounge

hi...
i have a 1963 vw bug and i have many doubts if the engine access windows are necessary or not.
i have a 1776cc with ida48, the window is necessary?
for me the windows are not nice to see...
please help me for the right decision... photoes with engine up, please...
very tnx...
 ::)

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_S8NzUWeTRT0/RxhRdDnJNFI/AAAAAAAAAXE/-OK_aKqSRV8/s400/Immagine+293.jpg)

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_S8NzUWeTRT0/RxhRXDnJNEI/AAAAAAAAAW8/cWNhfn9PUck/s400/Immagine+281.jpg)

(http://blogsimages.skynet.be/images_v2/002/556/245/20070220/dyn007_original_600_450_pjpeg_2556245_369b49e4269d3ac2f8f41b42a7d6a638.jpg)

(http://blogsimages.skynet.be/images_v2/002/556/245/20070220/dyn007_original_450_600_pjpeg_2556245_7c605fe9f5e190f841e4ccade5e990dc.jpg)

It all boils down to the fan shroud and manifolds you plan to use.... tall manifolds and a 36hp or early round 40hp shroud; no windows.  Short manifolds, big shroud; I'd do the windows for sure.

tnx SARGE... .... no windows...??? ??? ??? ???
i use this manifolds and this fan shroud

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_S8NzUWeTRT0/R3N5e99wdMI/AAAAAAAAApw/Z-TRRFfKdGs/s400/Immagine+742.jpg)

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_S8NzUWeTRT0/RxhRdDnJNFI/AAAAAAAAAXE/-OK_aKqSRV8/s400/Immagine+293.jpg)

Pretty parts. ;D

 ??? ::).. tnx .... up.... ???

I would say you don't need the windows..

I am looking at a set of these now. Trying to decide if I should fab up a set of my own or just order these.

--louis

Agreed!

For my '678 street car, I sort of wish it had windows sometimes, but I don't want to cut up the car so I can get by without them. On my '63 that wil be a race car though, I will probably put windows in it because I expect to spend a bit of time taking plugs readings and doing a lot more tuning in general.

Hi, sorry, I was just saying your parts look good.  :)

On the windows, I don't think you need them. I don't use them in my car, though I am sure some of the maintenance on my car would be less frustrating with them. I run the 1600d/p 1971- style VW shroud, tall manifolds and IDAs. Yes it is tight getting to carbs, manifold nuts, etc. I have a system I use to do the work, such as changing plugs. It isn't too bad, actually. I have a 12" long 1/4-drive wobble-end Snap On extension I use with a short 10mm(or 3/8") socket for manifold nuts (Berg flanged 8mm x 10mm are the only way to go), very easy to get down from above air stacks and get nuts off. I do remove the carbs to change plugs.... this gives me a chance to check gaskets between heads and manifolds (and replace if need be) and clean and lube accelerator pump cams and rollers on carbs.
If you were running Weber IDFs I woudl say most definitely cut access windows. But IDAs all the jets are accessible from above... they're a piece of cake.
Have fun,
Jim

I have the windows on my car, but I have a German doghouse and DCNFs so everything is pretty tight.  I believe that most people make the windows too big.  You just need enough room to get your hand in there and at the spark plug, manifold nut and the back side of the carb.  I think mine are just over 4 inches wide and about 5 inches high.  Just enough to get in there.  The door is held in place with one butterfly dzus fastener.

Don posted some pics of his on the CLF and I like the way they look.

--louis

A guy that used to come into BH had a cool idea many years ago: He was going to cut a door in the firewall, seperating the rear cabin and the engine compartment, and use an access panel like Type 3 or Vanagon to cover the window. How nice would that be for getting carbs off, sending throttle cable thru shroud, replacing alternator (loosening fan and hub), changing #1 & #3 plugs, getting to plug wires, etc. Not sure if he ever went through with it.

If you think IDA's can be a pain, access wise, try Super Flow heads with original style valve covers in an uncut Type 1. Talk about throwing tools....   >:(

Go for it, it makes life so much easier. Now is the time to make everything neat.
Just imagine that a sparkplug thread gets a little damaged, with the inspection-windows you will have
no problem re-tapping. Even changing plugs, with the windows it gets so much easier.
My 1 cent.

Thinking back on it, the main reason I had access windows on my '63 was to make room for the accerator pump rods on the Solex 40P11-4's and to get to the main jet holders (a huge pain in the ass without windows).... plus, having to deal with short manifolds.

yeah I can imagine. Looking at where the jets install on those carbs....  ::)...another reason I said "no way" on Sheep's motor.

Hopefully Donny doesnt mind me posting these but here is what he did. Simple and clean. I might do something like this but reinforce the window a with some 1/8 steel like the ones form Hookey's.

--louis

Thanks Louis!

That's what I've got in mind for my '70...45 DRLAs...

Shit... I didn't think of that. I'll be sporting 40p11's on short EMPI manifolds soon and there is no way I'm going to cut my car... Hmmm...

No pain, no gain ...  ;)

I *might* drill holes just large enough to get a screwdriver in to remove the jets, but THATS IT! Windows will NOT happen.

I used to think that until I saw Danny's Weber windows.

I had 'em on my '69 ... but I welded new panels in when we repainted.

I have seen some very nice versions of these done. But the way I see it, I didn't want to have to jack the car up and pull the wheels to access the carbs/plugs ... not on that car.
I guess I do it the hard way and tell myself I enjoy it. ::) ;D
TxT

Ditto on Danny's windows, got a set for my car as well.

I said I would never do this on this car but having a fused wrist (can't bend) makes it impossible to install manifolds or change plugs without the windows.

[attachment=1]
Reverend Bob did an excellent job creating them

[attachment=2]
you can see how much access I have now....of course, I have to remove the wheel to get to it.

[attachment=3]
and the cover on. There are no fasteners showing in the engine compartment

[attachment=4]
Sorry but I don't have a close up picture handy but you would really have to look hard to see the panel from the engine side. It is almost invisible.

Me to !! So simple its ez !!!

With the right combination of parts there will never be a reason to cut holes. As long as you go with IDA's.

Sure makes it nice to change plugs and tighten manifolds down!!!

 I made this whit Dzus  ;D

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/HuitMilRpm/Paprika/DSCF3351.jpg)

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/HuitMilRpm/Paprika/DSCF3354.jpg)



 

Will I need windows with 40IDF carbs and Berg IDF manifolds?

http://www.geneberg.com/product_info.php?cPath=8_291_2873&products_id=994&osCsid=87668ac46f27c763293632ee4dce0b75

I don't want to cut my car too  :-[

The quality of the windows has nothing to do with my decision... my car told me it didn't want them, and we know who wears the pants in this relationship ::) ;D

[/quote]


Will I need windows with 40IDF carbs and Berg IDF manifolds?

http://www.geneberg.com/product_info.php?cPath=8_291_2873&products_id=994&osCsid=87668ac46f27c763293632ee4dce0b75

I don't want to cut my car too  :-[
[/quote]


I think you just answered your own question.
If you don't want to cut up your car.............don't.

Manifolds, sparkplugs, jets...it's all possible to do without windows. Windows just makes it easier.
None of my cars before, had them and I've mostly run the short manifolds....and even with 13mm nuts on a few. I just modified some old wrenches, bent them, cut them, whatever and figured out a strategy.
Sometimes it was not putting the motor all the way in until I got the manifolds on, or just started the nuts  so I could wiggle the manifolds a little, etc.

Even with windows, it can be a challenge. I still had to modify a wrench for the manifold nuts and now I use the 10mm ones.


Marc

    Mark I am with you. I have a customer's 67 at home and I have build a 2276 cc for the car and the owner before him butchered the side panels in the engine compartment with no door. I am now having to make them so that it will look better than I have to work with. The carburetor we are using are 44 Webbers and no room to do anything. I will be posting pictures tomorrow to show what the previous owner did.

   Frenchy

For those who would rather not cut their Beetle engine bay, here's my method:  I simply leave off the front breast plate that goes over top of the "engine-to-trans" joint.  This allows me to reach in from the front (laying under the car) to access the cylinder #1/3 spark plugs and manifold nuts.  I'm running a stock FI doghouse shroud and IDA's on Scat manifolds.

Since I don't drive in the mud or snow very much, there's no issue with dirt getting into the engine bay.  I also have installed the breast plate afterwards (even had a two-piece tin for a while), but mostly I just leave it out.  This also gives some extra air into the engine bay for the carbs and fan...

I have some windows that I am getting ready to install in my car and I made the opening large enough to get my hand through, but I also made the opening an irregular shape in hopes of keeping/adding structural integrity to the rear fenderwells. My "base plate" is 1/8" thick steel and my removable door is made from 1/8" thick aluminum...it's actually a scope design but I still need to figure out how to mount a standard air filter section into the removable door and make a removable cover for the scoop's opening. I don't want rain and crap getting into the engine compartment in the winter time. The border of the steel "frame" is over 1-1/4" wide and the bottom part is over 1-5/8" tall so it should be strong. My dad has always complains at the shows about the "idiots" that butcher up VW's just to make them fast, and how "they" always remove material from the wrong portions of the car (making it structurally unsafe in the event of a collison)...But dear old Dad is a collison, paint, and bodyman, and has never had a 13 second Volkswagen with 48mm IDF Webers on it ;). So, while I understand and agree with his logic, I also like being able to work on my car with great ease. I think it's possible to have the best of both worlds, and once my frames are fully welded in place and everything is seam sealed/undercoated, you won't even notice the windows are there. Inside the engine compartment I am going to install factory style firewall insulation side panels and undercoat inside that area as well.

Here is the passenger side-I still need to weld the flanged nuts in place and make a 1/8" gasket to go between the door and frame.
(http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv348/youngnstudly/IMG_6362.jpg)

Andy

Neil, if you leave the firewall plate off, the engine will run hot, the engine bay is supposed to be closed to prevent hot air from reentering the bay

I understand this theory, and I guess it's possible if I was sitting in gridlocked traffic on a hot day, it might become an issue.  My thinking is that most of the hot air exits the "rear" while the Beetle is in motion, and doesn't/can't come to the front and over the transmission/engine area.  If it was my daily commuter, then I would probably put the tin back on...I have both a one piece and two piece tin at my disposal just for that purpose...

With the carbs and fan going, it's gonna make a vacuum in the engine compartment and its gonna pull air from the path of least resistance.

Danny did the install this past weekend, then I painted them.
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c218/smitty59/vdubs/DSC_0807.jpg)

(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c218/smitty59/vdubs/DSC_0805.jpg)
can't wait to have a reason to open up those puppies.

I'm in the process of making my own windows... nothing particularly fancy, but then there's nothing particularly fancy about the '70 I'm working on. ;D  This is kind of a project car in which I'm learning multiple skills and techniques.  If I wanted it perfect (and could afford it) I'd be paying someone else to do the work...I'm running 44IDF Webers on my 2017cc build with tall manifolds (CB, I believe, got them from Steve and greg Tims with my heads).

SAWEEEEEEEEET Jimmy!  Nice job Danny.  Was there any beer lstill in your fridge after Danny left?  I sure hope not!!  Jealous:  I want Danny to come to MY house.  He will have to drink Jamesons instead of that generic Jack stuff...  Friday at Nicks....."hide the cooler Danny"

Perfect time to put new seals in and undercoat that engine compartment! How are you planning to fasten your cover plates over the windows you cut out? Nothing wrong with doing your own work and not getting "show car" results (but learning and having fun in the process). You'll be glad you installed the windows with those tall straight manifolds. Those are the same ones I run (and you might need to get tapered air filters...or chop one filter down so the right side air cleaner won't hit the decklid).  See why I decided on Weber windows? Changing idle jets was DAMN NEAR impossible with this setup! Hopefully I will get to weld my window frames in this weekend and properly finish the engine compartment this time around.
(http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv348/youngnstudly/IMG_5974.jpg)

Andy

Scott,
Danny left when the beer was gone.  Likewise when the cops showed up the next night.  I didn't know he could move so quickly, must have been those shoes he was wearing.

Zach -- -- com'on and grow a pair and take charge of that relationship j/k -- with the right size 'window' you can even do this without pulling the engine

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss306/Fiatdude/2011-04-20_09-21-24_699.jpg)

Did I just hear Frenchy have a conniption fit -- sorry Frenchy I should of warned ya of the debauchery that was to be presented




H

You read my mind...lol.  Yeah, I fully plan on installing new engine bay seals and also wirewheeling the engine bay and cleaning everything up before coating it or primering it to start with.  My first goal is to get this engine in and some miles on it during this season/summer and then go back and work on the car a bit more in the fall/over the winter.  I'm thinking I may tack weld some machine screws in place and use wing nuts to fasten the covers in place for ease and convenience.

Very cool! I always liked seeing less than perfect cars at the shows with fully detailed engine compartments, interiors, trunks, etc. It shows the owner is genuinely concerned with their car, but they are on a budget (or simply don't want a nice car for a daily driver). You might think about welding some type of nut to the car instead of a stud or screw. Everytime you pull the covers off to get to your carbs, you chance messing up the threads...Just a thought. It probably doesn't matter either way and it would be nice to have wing nuts holding the doors on.  One could argue that the flange nuts I am using could just as easily strip out.  Sounds like you have a plan. If you have good factory paint that isn't rusty, you can use that as your base and skip priming before you undercoat (if you plan to). You can "feather in" new undercoating to match the original undercoating on the wheel well side of the body too (although I don't most of the time). The problem there is you really have to scrub and clean the original undercoating WELL or the new stuff won't stick. Depends on how much welding you'll be doing in that area and how much old undercoating  you want to strip off! That stuff can be a pain to get off. ::)

Andy

Cool tips to keep in mind... most of my undercoating is flaking off pretty easily...lol.  Amazingly as long as this car sat in a really wet environment, the fenderwells are really clean/solid.  No rot or rust at all... My initial thought was to use JB Weld to fasten the nuts or screws in the fender well, for a slightly less permanent solution as I plan on making changes/cleaning things up once the car is ready for a paint job (that will be a while... its' all I call do to build an engine right now lol).

I used a single butterfly dzus fastener on my car.  My windows are small just large enough to get at what I need and no more.  They have a tab that fits into the engine compartment and the a dzus fastener at the top and its sealed with self adhesive weather stripping.  It is simple and it works.

I am working on getting my '68 ready for paint and decided I should add some windows while the car is apart.  I combined a few different ideas from this post.  They slide in and out real easy, and are held in with one dzus button.  With the curve in the panel, and the step rolled edge they fit real tight. I wanted to be able to get them on/off without having to get into the fender well.  I made two pairs so I can keep one set nice, and use the other for daily driving.  The pics were before I cleaned up the edges and corners and added the dzus spring
(http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/829817.jpg)

(http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/829819.jpg)

(http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/829818.jpg)   

Did I say that?? ::)

40P11's do not belong in a Beetle's engine compartment. Next time my carbs are off, it's getting windows. #2 mixture screw is completely inaccessible. And those lovely accelerator pump rods... I haven't figured out a way to get the clearance I need without a big hole leading to the wheelhouse :-\

They sure sound great though :)

I have supper flow heads and 44idfs and i "was not cutting" the car till i got it together their was no way around it  :'(... i want dannys windows when the cash allows  ::).... what i did for now is i have a 1 1/2 metal punch and put 2 holes on each side for all my adjustment access and then drilled 2 holes just big enough to access my idle jets.... i figured i could get some of those lil rubber plugs and plug em all  :o..... but once said and done and im in their tunning all im thinking is how awesome it would be to have dannys windows and be able to access my plugs and everything  8).... i swear its like all you guys where in my head  ;) lol
 
and leaving any tin off is never an option i feel like a douche even running all the empi crap chrome till i can find a near mint factory set.... i can spot out any oil fast thou with the chrome its nice to track down small leaks.... its amazing where that fan can take the oil when its spinning at 5500 rpm  ;D

I have no doubt of their capabilities, that's why I chose them. But I wouldn't do it again unless it's in a Bus or Ghia.

I've come to terms with the fact that I need doors for my 40p11's, but what about the accelerator pump rods? I had to drill 1" holes on each side of the engine compartment for them, but I'm not thrilled that they lead directly into the wheel house. 

What did the guys do back in the day to solve this?

you should have made them oval and used '67 apron latch cups.  I know how you like to use factory parts!  ;D

That's the kind of answer I was looking for!! I had the solution pictured in my mind, but forgot about the rubber latch cups. Those will work perfectly!

X2... Great Idea Taylor

If you need some I have a few. Ill need to check the condition,  haven't looked in that box for a while.

Thanks Taylor, I'll just get a pair from WW. I'm pretty sure I can make the existing holes a bit bigger and they'll work perfectly. Brilliant idea :)

I was also thinking you could use the small round metal access covers for the shift rod hole found in the spare tire area.

That was my plan for the access panels, actually using steering box inspection covers since they are larger. And unfortunately the buldge in the shift rod cover isn't nearly deep enough to clear the pump rod. It's ridiculously long. I might be able to use an early rod that uses a split pin against the pump lever instead of the long adjusting nut and jam nut... That could save me up to 3/4"... Then the shift rod covers might do the trick. Something to think about. For now I'll just use the '67 latch rubbers. Easy to do with the motor still in the car. I'll upgrade when the motor comes out.