Looks Vs Safety

[louisb]

I need some input on a decision I need to make for the Manx project. Weather permitting I plan to have the fiberglass work done by the end of the month with an eye towards painting it in early March. The decision I am having trouble with is between and original style single hoop roll bar or a full cage:



vs,




I prefer the looks of the single hoop and it looks more period correct but it really offers little or no safety value. Here is a shot of a buggy with a single hoop that collapsed in a wreck. The driver died:




Its really more for looks than anything. I was hoping to get some input from the folks here on the issue. While I don't really plan to do any off-roading or racing with the car I do plan to drive it on the road a lot. On the other hand, its a fiberglass buggy so its probably as safe as a motorcycle. And if your stupid, no amount of safety equipment if going to save you. Am I getting worked up over nothing?

Thanks,

--louis

[glenn]

Put a hoop that securely mounted to the pan.

Honestly a Cheby Suburban will roll over it like a speed bump anyway.

[Bryan67]

Bruce always claimed that his design will protect you in a "Soft" rollover as long as you were to use the right mounting brackets and hardware. I think you can still buy a stainless roll bar through the Manx club too. But if you go that route I would cut the mounting flange off the pan and replace it rectangle tubing. That will stiffen the pan a bunch. If you go for a cage make sure its mounted solid and have tubing running down the back to tie in with the frame horns.

[louisb]

The hoop that the Manx Club sells uses a L bracket that ties into the rear body mounts. And Glenn I agree with the Suburban statement. I had a friend who was t-boned by a full size pickup in his oval. It caved in the sides and put him in the hospital with a broken leg, broken arm and broken ribs. So even our beloved beetles are not all that safe in a wreck.

--louis

[ian c]

safety , schmafety ....
the things made of fibreclass and hasnt even got bumpers !!!
you could probobly improve the safety 100% just by wearing a thick wooly jumper

[louisb]

safety , schmafety ....
the things made of fibreclass and hasnt even got bumpers !!!
you could probobly improve the safety 100% just by wearing a thick wooly jumper

ROFL! That's sig material there.


--louis

[danny gabbard]

First ask yourself what your going to do with the buggy. You can always put a hoop and tie it into rear frame horns

[mg]

That's a big gap, single tube or tube chassis.
Is this the $60 helmet question?
the upside down car is vile.
5 points and wrist retraints plz.

[louisb]

That's a big gap, single tube or tube chassis.
Is this the $60 helmet question?
the upside down car is vile.
5 points and wrist retraints plz.

I do have 5 point harness ready to go in the car. Its not really a tube chassis, more a 4 point cage that bolts to the stock floor pan.

--louis

[mg]

cool, the floor mount is critical too.

[kingsburgphil]

I need some input on a decision I need to make for the Manx project. Weather permitting I plan to have the fiberglass work done by the end of the month with an eye towards painting it in early March. The decision I am having trouble with is between and original style single hoop roll bar or a full cage:



vs,




I prefer the looks of the single hoop and it looks more period correct but it really offers little or no safety value. Here is a shot of a buggy with a single hoop that collapsed in a wreck. The driver died:




Its really more for looks than anything. I was hoping to get some input from the folks here on the issue. While I don't really plan to do any off-roading or racing with the car I do plan to drive it on the road a lot. On the other hand, its a fiberglass buggy so its probably as safe as a motorcycle. And if your stupid, no amount of safety equipment if going to save you. Am I getting worked up over nothing?

Thanks,

--louis

IMHO. A 6 pt. cage should provide adequate roll over protection, assuming shoulder/torso restraint is used. Side impact protection can be improved by laying woven roving over
split tubular cardboard forms and installing foam filled side pods. You would add a hundred lbs. to the buggy, so maybe a little more HP would be needed  .

As to frontal impact.....I'm at a loss.  Maybe a late model collapsible column? And a foam filled nose cavity?

 

[Jon]

I would at least attach supports back to the gearbox... for side impact maybe "door" bars could be hidden beneath the sides of the buggy.
Or use the mentioned wooly jumper.

[Jeff68]

This is a good topic.  I've always loved and wanted to build / have a dune buggy.  I live in Florida and there are always decent buggy Projects or complete ones for great prices.  If i had one I'd drive it in traffic too.  I came close to buying one this year but started thinking about the safety side of things.  They are reallly pretty much like a four wheeled motorcycle.  I think to safley drive it on the street you would need a cage of some sort as well.  Does anyone have any pictures of streey driven buggies with cages put in to them?  I'm looking for ideas on this.
Thanks.

[Russell]

Build a bolt in cage for driving and a bolt in loop for when parked or on show, they can be removalable.

best practice stay safe. 

[BeetleBug]

ALWAYS safety before looks

[Jeff68]

Build a bolt in cage for driving and a bolt in loop for when parked or on show, they can be removalable.

best practice stay safe. 

ALWAYS safety before looks

I agree that's why I asked abou this.  I couldn't imagine being in a buggy and getting hit by a truck or SUV.  I think as others have said the SUV or truck would pretty much drive "Inside" of the buggy and run you over.  Just wondering if those that have buggys on the street have pictures of what they have done to make their buggys "street" safe.

[volksnut]

Well....when I had my manx clone I drove it without a cage for a while, it wasn't until I installed a 6 point with down bars to the frame horns did I realize how much it helped with chassis flex...let alone safety...do it

[Neil Davies]

How's this for an idea. Put your main hoop in, but instead of the single bolt fixing that holds it upright through the side of the tub, use a much bigger plate, maybe 4x4" with four bolts, two either side of the upright tube. Then on the other side of the tub, under the return lip, bolt the matching plate, sandwiching the fibreglass. From this outer plate, run another bar along the side of the tub, hidden under the lip, all the way forward to the beam. You could use the same method to add a dash bar. That should give you some side impact protection, especially if you run a 2" box section around the inside of the tub over the top of the mounting flange, even using sleeved tubes through to allow you to bolt through the body directly to the pan.

If you wanted to go really mad, a rear bar could be fabricated to run under the rear arch lip, all the way around over the top of the motor, braced down to the gearbox cradle, and also triangulating the shock towers in. Use the sandwiched plate method to add a pair of diagonal bars from the main hoop. Strong, but period looking!

[danny gabbard]

This is just a thought, Louis are you still going to have a detachable roof? Build something that bonds the cage and roof together then make that tie into the lower part of car and bolt in. And take it out when you dont need it. Sand bend the tubes so you can get a real tight fit between cage and inner roof. In the off road industry they make real nice deals that you can bolt a tube joint butt to butt.

[Eric Ellis (57HotrodVW)]

Something else to think about with with respect to a single hoop and/or a full cage, is the proximity of bars to occupant's heads. Unless you're going to be wearing five point harnesses and a helmet all the time, there's a possibility that your bare head could come into contact with some very hard tubing in even a minor accident.

[kingsburgphil]

We lost a fellow club member who head was on the wrong side of a rollbar during a slow roll over. 39 years later and I'm still a "Safety Sam" 

We can build you a new car.....We can't build a new you.

 

[louisb]

Something else to think about with with respect to a single hoop and/or a full cage, is the proximity of bars to occupant's heads. Unless you're going to be wearing five point harnesses and a helmet all the time, there's a possibility that your bare head could come into contact with some very hard tubing in even a minor accident.

That is one thing I have been thinking about. There was a guy in Europe that cracked his melon on a roll cage which is a good argument for not having one in street only car.

 

How's this for an idea. Put your main hoop in, but instead of the single bolt fixing that holds it upright through the side of the tub, use a much bigger plate, maybe 4x4" with four bolts, two either side of the upright tube. Then on the other side of the tub, under the return lip, bolt the matching plate, sandwiching the fibreglass. From this outer plate, run another bar along the side of the tub, hidden under the lip, all the way forward to the beam. You could use the same method to add a dash bar. That should give you some side impact protection, especially if you run a 2" box section around the inside of the tub over the top of the mounting flange, even using sleeved tubes through to allow you to bolt through the body directly to the pan.

If you wanted to go really mad, a rear bar could be fabricated to run under the rear arch lip, all the way around over the top of the motor, braced down to the gearbox cradle, and also triangulating the shock towers in. Use the sandwiched plate method to add a pair of diagonal bars from the main hoop. Strong, but period looking!

I had been thinking something along those lines. Another option would be like what this guy did:



Same car during the build:



It probably does not provide much side impact protection but the main hoop is braced better.

--louis

[Jeff68]

Thanks for the replys guys..

[glenn]

It probably does not provide much side impact protection but the main hoop is braced better.

--louis

If it helps him sleep better but that add no protection.

Like I said.. a speed bump.