Oil?

[Jim Ratto]

What's the thoughts on engine oil in Europe? Brand? Synth or conventional? Special diesel oil or motorcycle oil or race oil? What about the API vs. ACEA ratings? SM, SL, SJ, CI-4, CJ-4??
I lost the old Web Cam in my last motor. Well, specifically, I lost lifters and cam. The lifters were Webs, and were coated by SLR a few years back. I used black moly lube to assemble. Spun motor over without rockers and plugs, then oiled valvetrain, assembled and fired it. Ran for 20-30 min at 2000rpm with Chevron Delo oil. Drained oil following day, replaced it with Castrol GTX 20W50. Ran Castrol for a few months, then switched to Mobil 1 15W50 (the old formula from back 2002 or so) and when that formula changed, I switched to Lubro Moly synthetic, Voll Synthesse 5W40 and ran that until I pulled motor down, at about 15-16000 miles.
My new motor has an Engle FK45 with Mahle/Bugpack lifters, I used black moly lube to assemble, runnning conventional VW dual springs (probably 145# @ seat, 295# full open), ran the engine for 30 min with Mobil Delvac diesel oil with a bottle of STP red additive. Drained oil and replaced with Valvoline Premium Blue 15W40 diesel oil with another bottle of STP Red. I just want this thing to live.
Has anybody found any luck running these diesel oils over a "racing" oil as far as cam wear goes? What about a moly MOS2 additive? Do they help? It's hard to find concrete evidence on a lot of oils out there. Valvoline's web site does provide Zn levels and P levels for a lot of their products but not all. LN Engineering has a informative write up on oil on their site, http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html
I appreciate any opinions and or feedback.

Thanks!
Jim Ratto

[John Rayburn]

Jim, I recently inquied to Amsoil Corporate my concerns with the VW flat tappet cam and todays oil . They sent me a full report on their take.... I'll print it out and bring it for you Sunday. Interesting reading; they way in on the metalurgy of todays lifters and consider this a substantial problem.... John

[louisb]

Was that a hard weld cam Jim?

--louis

[Alan Uyeno]

Jim,

Theres are alot of people loving the cheap CB lightweight lifters. Have you considered using those with a cam of choice??

Since your engine is together with the fk45 and bugpacks I'd use 1/2 bottle of GM EOS and your choice of diesel (valvoline blue, Delo, Rotella, etc) this will easily go into the 1500ppm of zinc.

The thing about zinc is its the last barrier. Hopefully you dont get to that point.  I would have liked to see what your lifters looked like after using Lubrimoly 5w40 (pao base). I guess the theory of synthetics is that it will provide better film so you dont get down to metal to metal. Sometimes I wonder if we simply get jaded by zinc PPM numbers. The oil base is a factor and the combination of the additives that go in it.

Oil is such a hot topic these days but you must look at a persons application too. I've used ELF 10w50 PAO and I think thats been a great oil for my 2332.  I will tear down my motor when I "feel" fit so thats very frequent for my hotstreet engine.  I use chevy valetrain so the lifterbores get beat on and my cam constantly gets stiff pressure knawing at the nose    So realistically I can confidentally get away with using Rotella T/valvolin premium blue with some GM EOS and save a bundle of money.

I'm currently using udo lifters (heavy version of tool steel) and I've beaten them brutally with an fk47 with wobbled lifter bores. I cant imagine how any other lifter would have taken that much abuse. I only ran 200+km's till the case was completely wobbled to hell.



Udo lifters new (early generation tool steel lifters)



"AFTER" picture with 200kms with chevy valvetrain with severely wobbled lifter bores. The lifter is PERFECT!!

I think most VW dual spring engines will eventually get less abuse since the valve springs get real soft in a short period of time. This reduces stress on the lifter bores and cam / lifter contact point. The spring pressure is the real killer and if your not floating the valves and using a lifter that doesn't typically pit (you know what brand) you'll be fine.

My view on lifters has changed completely after I saw how good my tool steel lifters look after malicious abuse. My 2 NOS set of schubeks wouldn't have lasted with that kind of abuse I gave to my udo tool steels.

I guess we can turn green and discuss oil but bottom line is if you have the right lifters any good quality oil with good dose of zinc it will have a good life. Reduce the spring pressure and your lifters/cam will love you even more.

The true test of wear (or lack of) is to use a dial indicator and check your valvelift on a regular basis.

That castrol PAO must be expensive. What alot of oil geeks are finding is that a good quality shell helix hyrocracked group 3 mineral oil are giving just as good numbers compared to a PAO synthetic base stock. So in other words who or what do you believe.

Thing about used oil analysis is you'll get a variety of different readings from similar engines. So many factors like dampers wearing/friction against the duals inner spring, differnt radius on a certain brand lifter and different taper on different brand camshafts, hone finish of the cylinders, type of rings used etc etc. Call me a man with blind faith but if you have consistant valvelift thats a piece of mind.

I was using some ghetto cheap riosolence brazilian lifters with my favourite CB2289 cam and chevy valvetrain. That combo lasted me 2 years till I decide to inspect inside the case. The lifters had no dish but they started to go concave marginally. I retired those lifters and cam but she lived well with my abuse.

All I say is use your favourite slippery stuff with GM EOS or favourite synthetic and if you have consistant valve lift your fine.

[Alan Uyeno]

If anyone has gotten the latest batch of Udo's they look like a shiney schubek lifter finish. I've seen alot of bugpacks with the same mirror smooth finish too.

If you look at the big picture our biggest main concern is lifter/cam  and lifter bore wear. All the rest just rolls arond for the ride. Piston rings are cheap and simple to replace. Cracking the case it the bitch.

For a mag case guy I think its a good idea to silicon bronze the lifterbores straight from the beginning. This just eliminates headaches down the road with the trend of going agressive on the cam grinds these days.

Apparently Lubrimoly 5w40 is PAO with a splash of Ester so thats an awesome oil for a "non" race formula. VW and porsche spec I believe. I'd have to read the bottle at my shop. I use that on alot of VW's (watercooled). I think I may try that or just use my buttload of Elf 10w50 I have.

Yes Ester is the superior of the synthetics but what alot of people do NOT know is its not high in quantity in the bottle you buy. From what I've been told its 20-25% ester in a "Ester base stock" oil you buy. Bloody expensive compared to a man made PAO group IV. I think most of the oils now will become a hydrocracked mineral oil (group3) because people do not want to spend 10bucks a quart or liter and ESTER or PAO is very very expensive. So in other words majority of all "so called synthetics" like a group3 will be the "street" oils and the higher end race oils will be ESTER or PAO. The smaller boutique oil companies will sell whatever they choose but they only have a small market share compared to the big boys.

The CB lightweights that are 28mm's are looking like the choice of lifter for the longevity cheaper lifters that holds a radius. I think pulling out the snap rings (compressing temporarily) and dropping a dab of green loctite will permanently hold the snaprings in place IF VALVEFLOAT occurs. This appears to be the problem the oldschool Eatons had with valve float.

Since schubeks are "unobtainium" those are hard to come by. For a fast street car 7500rpms is probably a great shiftpoint at the track so any lifter would do to keep things under control. This is assuming your using decent dual springs or triples. Chevy springs like I use are stiff but hold pressure extremely long and I never worry about them getting too soft for my street/strip application. A street guy usually doesn't use an fk89 so this is why I think 7500rpms is good area to shift. An 86C probably drops off in the torque band on most heads at 6300-6500 so the 7500 is helping the drop in rpm when you shift.

man I'm getting of topic. I guess oil selection and choice of lifter is the big question. I'm sold on tool steel now. If I build a budget minded toned down street motor I'll probably go with a k10 with cb lightweights. I have 2 sets of udo's so my spare 2332 will be getting my other set of tool steels.

I have never had such a stress free virgin engine start in my life. Both chevy valve springs installed even with my spark plugs installed I started her up. My stomach didn't turn at all. I think its more adviseable to get oil pressure with no plugs installed. I'm confident my tool steel lifters will live for a long long time regardless of what oil i use. Another nice option is I can put those same lifters in other motors after teardown to teardown.

oil selection  is critical but other factors are just as imperative. All the GM EOS in the world wont save you from a badly machined radius on a "certain brand" lifter.

[louisb]

This is a great thread. Lots of good information. Alan, where did you get the tool steel lifters? You would think with all the problems with flat cams someone would come up with a solution for a street roller setup.

--louis

[Alan Uyeno]

This is a great thread. Lots of good information. Alan, where did you get the tool steel lifters? You would think with all the problems with flat cams someone would come up with a solution for a street roller setup.

--louis

I use Udo Becker's tool steel lifters.

Schubek has a product:

#10161, .746 Roller-X Solid Keyed Lifters for VW Type 1 Air-Cooled Alum. Block. Requires Keyway fixture #10261

They are roller but I dont think its catching on with the hotstreet crowd.

Having good lifterbores will assure no binding and the lifter will spin consistantly. I'm convinced any aggressive cam with dual springs would work much better with a sleeved mag case or an aluminum case. I cannot believe how little wear I am having with a silicon  bronzed sleeved lifter bore with chevy springs and CB2289 cam. Most of the wear is in the thrust area of the lifter body (closest to the pushrod end).

I'm hoping for some decent longevity with my sleeved case with udo becker tool steels. If you think about it thats where most of the problem lies. Lifterbores and cam life. My chevy springs are not as stiff as people think but its still hard on the pressure point of the cam and lifter.

Oil is a large part of the equation but its just a piece of the puzzle.

[Jon]

The thing about zinc is its the last barrier. Hopefully you dont get to that point.  I would have liked to see what your lifters looked like after using Lubrimoly 5w40 (pao base). I guess the theory of synthetics is that it will provide better film so you dont get down to metal to metal. Sometimes I wonder if we simply get jaded by zinc PPM numbers.

You are right, the Zinc is a life saver that lasts a fraction of a second after the OILFILM is crushed (a key word)....  now, how come us VW boys can crush the oilfilm with our measely  twin springs. I mean, all the heaviest machinery in the world use a oil film to save the parts...  but we cant get it to last.

If you think logicaly on this, the oil must be subjected to pounding... not just pressure, couse pressure the oil film can take!