Narrowed Beam or not

[dielinde]

Hey guys

Some of you guys know, that i´m building a Late Looker and now it´s time to buy the beam for the nice nose down stance  but i don´t know.... should i buy a narrowed beam or a not narrowed? i drive these fake gasburner in 5,5x15 ET 35 and stock drums in Porsche bolt pattern.... what do you think?

[Zach Gomulka]

Fit the stock beam up first and see how much, if any, you need to narrow.

[dielinde]

you know i should mount my wheels on the stock beam and see how it looks... good idea

[Donny B.]

I had to narrow my beam 2 inches after installing welded dropped spindles and Flat 4 BRMS.  It brought the tires back under the fender to near stock location.  The tires rubbed before I did that.  That is the only reason I would narrow the beam.

[dielinde]

Hi

yes that is my only reason too i ´ll not build a German Folks Car but tried today to build the wheel on one wirh one nut (for the other drums i still wait) and without tyres, but when i think i´ll upgrad to discs in front the wheels stand out of the fender i think...

[Lee.C]

Mock up a stock beam and see what it looks like but I would stay stock width where-ever possible 

[Neil Davies]

Hi

yes that is my only reason too i ´ll not build a German Folks Car but tried today to build the wheel on one wirh one nut (for the other drums i still wait) and without tyres, but when i think i´ll upgrad to discs in front the wheels stand out of the fender i think...

As far as I know, the stock discs don't add any more width than stock drums. The problem comes when you add dropped spindles as part of the disc conversion. The spindles are the bit that adds width. If you're sticking with stock spindles, you should be ok.

[Lids]

can someone answer this question for me its bugged my for years.

I presume all dropped spindles are new, so why do they increase the offset?

In the early days they were welded ones so i can understand, but surely they are now all cast from new?  In which case just set the geometry up as per stock spindles and no width problems!

[Zach Gomulka]

can someone answer this question for me its bugged my for years.

I presume all dropped spindles are new, so why do they increase the offset?

In the early days they were welded ones so i can understand, but surely they are now all cast from new?  In which case just set the geometry up as per stock spindles and no width problems!

Moving the "axle" upwards 2 1/2" requires more meat to be added to the spindle. At least that's the way I understand it.

Also, I believe original spindles are forged, drop spindles are cast. Maybe the extra material is for added strength?

[ALB]

can someone answer this question for me its bugged my for years.

I presume all dropped spindles are new, so why do they increase the offset?

In the early days they were welded ones so i can understand, but surely they are now all cast from new?  In which case just set the geometry up as per stock spindles and no width problems!

Moving the "axle" upwards 2 1/2" requires more meat to be added to the spindle. At least that's the way I understand it.

Also, I believe original spindles are forged, drop spindles are cast. Maybe the extra material is for added strength?

I was under the impression that the offset was needed so a 15" wheel would clear the lower ball joint. And there are a couple of wheels that hit, even with the offset.

[Donny B.]

Also, I believe original spindles are forged, drop spindles are cast. Maybe the extra material is for added strength?

Welded dropped spindles are made from stock spindles so they are forged.  The new dropped spindles are cast.

[hotrodsurplus]

Welded dropped spindles are made from stock spindles so they are forged.  The new dropped spindles are cast.

Which is a great selling point for welded spindles (provided forged dropped spindles don't exist). I don't trust cast parts in applications that were designed with forged parts in mind. There's a reason Volkswagen chose the more expensive method. Consider the volume; the company could've saved millions in construction costs.

On average a casting has about a six-percent yield at which point it fails whereas a forging has about a 10 percent yield. The other difference is that a casting tends to break whereas a forging usually bends. The least ductile forgings tend to be far more ductile than the most ductile castings.

True, modifying a spindle like that increases the risk of failure but the risks are minimal if the materials are prepared and handled properly. In fact there's a good chance that the modification will increase the part's strength. Many welded parts fail outside of the modified area. That's common in the destructive tests that I've witnessed (and my test parts have suffered) at weld school.

[Zach Gomulka]

Didn't AirSpeed make some forged drop spindles?

[hotrodsurplus]

Didn't AirSpeed make some forged drop spindles?

Reportedly the Airkewld spindles are forged. They certainly have a fat line down the side which indicates a forging (castings have sharper, narrower lines).

http://airkewld.com/products-page/parts/ball-joint-drum-drop-spindles-1969-75/

[mg]

True, modifying a spindle like that increases the risk of failure but the risks are minimal if the materials are prepared and handled properly. In fact there's a good chance that the modification will increase the part's strength.

Older 911s have safely used welded raised and decambered spindles in racing for decades.

[hotrodsurplus]

Older 911s have safely used welded raised and decambered spindles in racing for decades.

Exactly. In fact 356s get the same treatment. Probably the best endorsement for welded spindles are the ones in the off-road world. They're entirely fabricated from plate and tubing and they undergo just a tiny bit more punishment than what our cars will put them through.



How this turned into a thread about dropped spindles is beyond me but as mentioned earlier let the combination determine if/how much you need to narrow the beam. Those Mahle copies have really good offset--42mm positive. For reference, the stock four-lug VW wheel has a 32mm offset. So the wheels alone will narrow the front track by 20mm (a tick more than 3/4-inch). To the best of my knowledge VW's rotors are dimensionally the same as the drums so you shouldn't need to compensate for them.

If memory serves me, most dropped spindles widen track about 3/8" on each side. That's about the same dimension that the Mahle wheels narrow the track. So the tire centerline/wheel track on a car with dropped spindles and Mahles should match the centerline/track of a stone-stock car. Of course you might need to narrow the beam a tick if you intend to run a more modern and wider tire like a 175/65.

[richie]

Hi

yes that is my only reason too i ´ll not build a German Folks Car but tried today to build the wheel on one wirh one nut (for the other drums i still wait) and without tyres, but when i think i´ll upgrad to discs in front the wheels stand out of the fender i think...

On my old cabrio I have stock genuine VW beam with added adjusters, CB drop spindles, stock style VW discs with Porsche pattern and real gasburners and they fit just fine, In my eyes no narrowed beam is needed, and for the record I tested my CB spindles as hard as any off road car and they are holding up just fine

cheers Richie

[brian e]

I have standard cheap drop disk spindles, and a bolt on 4 lug disk kit on my '74.  I am running American Racing style knock off Rivieras and 165/65 tires on a 2" beam.  They just kiss the fender lips on a quick dip in the road, or quite frequently with another person riding.  I am pretty sure a 3" beam would be perfect, and keep the tires away.

[hotrodsurplus]

I have standard cheap drop disk spindles, and a bolt on 4 lug disk kit on my '74.  I am running American Racing style knock off Rivieras and 165/65 tires on a 2" beam.  They just kiss the fender lips on a quick dip in the road, or quite frequently with another person riding.  I am pretty sure a 3" beam would be perfect, and keep the tires away.

For your application the 3-inch beam might be the cock for dolly but bear in mind that your wheel offset differs pretty radically from the Mahle copy.

The Riviera wheel and its copies like the American Eagles like yours have a 17mm ET. Suspension being equal, a vehicle with those wheels will have a 1.2-inch-wider wheel track than a car with stock steel wheels. Conversely, a vehicle with Mahle wheels will have a wheel track that's 1.9 inches narrower than one with Rivieras.

That's actually a good reference point. Theoretically a car with a stock-width beam, dropped spindles, and Mahles will have about the same wheel track as one with a 2-inch narrowed beam, dropped spindles, and Rivis. If you were to run 145s then rubbing probably wouldn't be an issue with that combo but 165s or 175s might cause problems. But theory and practice are two different animals. I know from my own experience that fender width and arch height varies. So what's good for one car might not translate to another.

Regarding cast spindles, I don't want to come off as alarmist. There are lots of those things roaming the streets and the lack of negative feedback suggests that they're well up to the task. My point is that if given the choice a forged or properly built fabricated spindle might be a better option.

[Lee.C]

Hi

yes that is my only reason too i ´ll not build a German Folks Car but tried today to build the wheel on one wirh one nut (for the other drums i still wait) and without tyres, but when i think i´ll upgrad to discs in front the wheels stand out of the fender i think...

On my old cabrio I have stock genuine VW beam with added adjusters, CB drop spindles, stock style VW discs with Porsche pattern and real gasburners and they fit just fine, In my eyes no narrowed beam is needed, and for the record I tested my CB spindles as hard as any off road car and they are holding up just fine

cheers Richie

Very well put dude