Sump purpose...

[bugnut68]

I'm looking for tech info on what the benefits are for a deep sump on, say a 2.0 liter, that may see 6,000 RPM at best, and not on a real regular basis.  Is it considered an absolute must?  If the engine will rev fast enough (2017cc, Engle 125 cam, 42x37.5 valves, 8.5 or 9:1 comp, dual 45 Dells, 12 lb flywheel, yada yada yada) to suck the factory sump dry, then I will most certainly go for it.  I'm just curious about the benefits from other standpoints, such cooling and longevity.  My concern is with access to my pressure relief valves, as it appears the sump I'm aiming to use will block it off and deem it inaccessible without removing the sump.

[Zach Gomulka]

Whoa, hold the phone. You're gonna stick a 125 cam in a motor that will only see 6k? That cam with those heads will pull past 7 grand. If you really only want a motor that revs to 6k, a 110 will get you there easily, and give you loads more torque. Once you get it running and it keeps pulling past 6, there's no way you're gonna shift! Don't lie!

And yes, you need a sump. If it was my motor I'd use a Berg 3.5.

[bugnut68]

Whoa, hold the phone. You're gonna stick a 125 cam in a motor that will only see 6k? That cam with those heads will pull past 7 grand. If you really only want a motor that revs to 6k, a 110 will get you there easily, and give you loads more torque. Once you get it running and it keeps pulling past 6, there's no way you're gonna shift! Don't lie!

And yes, you need a sump. If it was my motor I'd use a Berg 3.5.

;-)  No lies, here... I won't say I'll NEVER shift way up there, I'm just playing devil's advocate  

In all honesty, I'm just trying to educate myself on all the various details... I'm humble enough to say there's lots of technical details I have an inkling of an idea of why they're good ideas, but can't articulate them very well *snort* (George Costanza style snort)

[Bruce]

The tires you are using is a big factor too.  If you have tires that allow you to corner better, you need a deep sump. 

On the other hand, if you always drive as if your grandmother was riding shotgun, you don't need a deep sump.

I've got a 1.5 qt sump.  In all the years, I have never once seen the need for a bigger anchor hanging under the engine.

[Speed-Randy]

just depends on how much oil you wantto dump on the track before your oil pressure light/gauge lets you know a seal has blown. just watch the primered car this sunday as he lives up to his nickname "the king of the oil-downs". 4 quarst makes it all the way down the track it turns out cause he NEVER pulls to the side and gets towed

[Hotrodvw]

I think a 4qt is over kill unless the front end is off the ground under hard launch.....  1.5qt is what I use, seems to be plenty sufficient.

[bugnut68]

I was considering a 2-qt Scat sump, as I've heard a lot of good things about them, plus the difficulty in obtaining new sumps from the Bergs.  My car at the moment has 165 tires, and that won't be changing any time soon.  Primarily a street car and occasionally trips to the local 1/8 mile track.

[Bruce]

  My car at the moment has 165 tires,

Compared to when your car was new, that is an upgrade that will allow better cornering.  It is likely you will starve the engine on freeway cloverleafs without a sump.

[bugnut68]

  My car at the moment has 165 tires,

Compared to when your car was new, that is an upgrade that will allow better cornering.  It is likely you will starve the engine on freeway cloverleafs without a sump.

No cloverleafs where I live, but I'm pretty well set on running a 1.5 qt sump at minimum at this stage.  What sort of cooling advantages come with  a 1.5 or 2 Qt sump?  Anything worth noting?

[Jim Ratto]

Bruce is right, with stock oil capacity (i.e. no extra sump), even with my 1641 I could flash the oil light without trying hard, just driving at a good clip on 2nd-3rd gear twisty roads. I didn't think I needed a sump, so I put a Bugpack super-sucker kit on instead, whcih helped, but if I pushed a corner hard and long enough, the light would flicker.
Your motor will GAIN rpm faster than stock oil capacity likes, no matter where you shift. That's another sound reason to bolt at least a 1.5 qt on. A stock motor with a light flywheel and Kadrons is going to rev fast enough to need some help. Kinda goes hand in hand with valve springs. If your cam will need a good set of HD or duals (like your W125), rule of thumb is "you need more oil capacity".
I doubt a 1.5 qt amounts to any meaningful cooling.

[Zach Gomulka]

More oil only means it takes longer for the oil to get up to temp.

[Torben Alstrup]

What Bruce said.
I like the CB thin line 1,3 liter, because its thin. and 1,3 l. is enough for most normal engines up to yours and and thereabouts. But I have nothing bad to say about the Scat 1,5 l.

The cooling capacity of a sump is there, no doubt. But how much is hard to tell. I for one have never tested that aspect, only noted that there is a slight difference. I´d say that it makes more of a difference what oil you are using.

T

[Bruce]

  What sort of cooling advantages come with  a 1.5 or 2 Qt sump?  Anything worth noting?

Even though you get more surface area hanging down in the wind, your engine's oil temp will be exactly the same as without the sump.  Many will disagree that it makes no sense, it has to run cooler, but it's not so.  Everyone that's run without then added a sump knows this.

[bugnut68]

  What sort of cooling advantages come with  a 1.5 or 2 Qt sump?  Anything worth noting?

Even though you get more surface area hanging down in the wind, your engine's oil temp will be exactly the same as without the sump.  Many will disagree that it makes no sense, it has to run cooler, but it's not so.  Everyone that's run without then added a sump knows this.

Gotcha.  My initial thought and understanding from what I've seen posted around is that additional oil capacity is the primary objective, for prevention of oil starvation.  I had never seen any numbers for any cooling advantages, now I guess I know why!

[Zach Gomulka]

I believe in the How To Hot Rod VW Engines book it states that oil is good at picking up heat, but not so much at dissapating it

[Jim Ratto]

the benefits from added oil capacity via a "deep sump" is for added availability of oil. It will not replace running a good cooler in the full flow. You can't fill an aluminum crate up with 200F oil and have the wind run around it and expect it's going to cool the oil, Ryan. The fins on the stock case aren't doing much for cooling the oil temp, in fact, I bet they were engineered to stiffen the floor of the case so it wouldn't cave in on the lifts getting installed and extracted from the car.
You've got so much oil NOT in contact with any surface area, unlike a true oil cooler matrix (or coolant radiator), it can't be expected that a sump is going to solve a cooling issue. If a deep sump was designed with deeper and finer fins (think clyinder head) on top, bottom, perimeter, and had cool air forced through it via ductwork, then I think a deep sump of that nature would amount to some additional cooling. But it would be goddamn fragile!

[Rick Sadler]

But it would be goddamn fragile!

Thank You Jerry!