Flat 4 or MWS ??

[Chuck Fryer]

As far as a brm repo goes:

I know the obvious difference is the finish. What are the pro's and con's of each wheel? I have owned the flat 4 in the past, but never the mws. I am at the point in my ghia project I need to buy wheels and am at a loss as to which one to buy. Any help would be much appreciated.

Chuck

[Russell]

Without any doubt Flat 4 wheels are the way to go.

You are then buying from someone who has put heaps back into our hobby and in their own right the flat 4 BRMs will become collectable in years to come, IMHO.

[71CALRIPPER]

oo can of worms, dont get certain people started on how bad MWS are. Falt Four all the way

[Rennsurfer]

From what I've seen, the Flat Four ones are the way to go. To each their own, though.

[Shubee2 (DSK)]

Flat Four BRM's are the Best as far as Quality and as close to the original Look  The MWS wheels weigh a ton they have funkie lug holes and the Black Spokes are to Flat and to Glossy  The Flat Four wheels have a cast in Spacer for the lugs which looks more like the Original BRM and have a little ruffness to the Black or Grey Spokes.  NOTE"  How Ever The New Flat Four Wheels are  Made the Same as the earlier ones but Flat four has  changed the Finish of the Wheel now The Spokes look like they are powder coated Gloss Black and are Flat like the MWS Wheels  I dont like the look of the MWS wheels and Dont like the NEW flat fours as much as the older ones  I just Bought two of the new Flat Fours to mount some slicks on and the came really glossy Black which I will repaint because I dont think they look as good as a year ago's Wheels. just my 2 cents

[Chuck Fryer]

Thanks for the replys. I had no idea this was a "here we go again" type of topic. I will stick to what I had ran in the past and order the flat 4.

Chuck

[Fritter]

I respect everyone else's opinion so far.  The MWS BRM's on my old '65 (4.5 in front and 5.5 rear) are almost flawless, they are very very nice. 

[.]

Is the offset, width etc., of the repro wheels correct for the rear of a Ghia without a lot of modifications ?
I know there are clearance issues there.
 

[Fritter]

Is the offset, width etc., of the repro wheels correct for the rear of a Ghia without a lot of modifications ?
I know there are clearance issues there.
 

Good points Richard, I know David Ward had issues with his Ghia, but that was with the CMS wheels. 

I believe I have seen many Ghias with fake BRMs, so Chuck "should" be OK.....

[qubek]

I had the same problem (choosing between MWS and FLAT4) and tried to solve it without going into "I like company X and I don't like company Y" type of argumentation.
New FLAT 4's are hard to distinguish from MWS's.
MWS's are available in 5,5 and 4,5 width, FLAT 4's - in 5 inches only*. I have a full width beam and short axles at the back, so MWS's were what I needed.
There is nothing wrong with quality of MWS's. They're really good.
ET (offset) on them is really low, so i suppose that you can run into problems with 5,5 ones at the back of a Ghia.
I chose MWS's and I'm 100% satisfied.


*I know that they make 6.5s too, but they seems to be widened to the inside only.

[empicolector]

FLAT4 has it all
MWS wheels are not the best choice for keep wheel in time they look great one year ( here with rain )
I 've got flat4 since more than 10 year on my ghia they still look new and superb
I 've got MWS on my bus since 4 years and they look  bad and old  , the gloss is leaving and they become the meeting point of all the dog in the area

[Russell]

Guys

MWS wheels are fine but when adding to our cars we should want to keep it in with the style we love flat 4 offer these products as something for us to acheive a look, MWS just copried them ! i would always prefer the original replica.

[Gunter]

Guys

MWS wheels are fine but when adding to our cars we should want to keep it in with the style we love flat 4 offer these products as something for us to acheive a look, MWS just copried them ! i would always prefer the original replica.

I can not agree more, and guys don't we all love Mr Komori and Mr Nao
they have a CalLook heart for sure
who is coming to BugIn 33 ?
who is coming and racing at European BugIn 1 and 2 and more ?

[javabug]

original replica

That's the next new thing, right there.

[Shubee2 (DSK)]

I had the same problem (choosing between MWS and FLAT4) and tried to solve it without going into "I like company X and I don't like company Y" type of argumentation.
New FLAT 4's are hard to distinguish from MWS's.
MWS's are available in 5,5 and 4,5 width, FLAT 4's - in 5 inches only*. I have a full width beam and short axles at the back, so MWS's were what I needed.
There is nothing wrong with quality of MWS's. They're really good.
ET (offset) on them is really low, so i suppose that you can run into problems with 5,5 ones at the back of a Ghia.
I chose MWS's and I'm 100% satisfied.


*I know that they make 6.5s too, but they seems to be widened to the inside only.

The Flat 4 BRM's come in 5 inch and 6.5 inch  the 6.5's are 1/2 inch deeper on the outside and + 1 inch on the inside they will not fit on the front  only works on the rear  8 inch slicks look great mounted on the 6.5's

[LuftsickTero]

FLAT4 has it all
MWS wheels are not the best choice for keep wheel in time they look great one year ( here with rain )
I 've got flat4 since more than 10 year on my ghia they still look new and superb
I 've got MWS on my bus since 4 years and they look  bad and old  , the gloss is leaving and they become the meeting point of all the dog in the area

I had set of MWS wheels 1997-02, they had some crap under lacquer, other than that they were okay. Ended up looking like shit since I tried to reverse around corner and hit kerb. IMHO, repros are repros, being closer to originals doesn't make them originals and I don't really the way Flat 4 reproes everything.

[gizago]

MWS are a bunch of cowboys churning out a load of crap, and they couldnt care less about authenticity, or originality, and have no interest in the scene in general. Ask Jonny at java/jge, they (MWS) are rumoured to have 'aquired' some of his rejected castings/moulds and used them to produce rims to sell at half the price. Not nice.

[62 Ragtop]

Interesting reading. I'm also pondering replacing my black MWS BRMs (came with the car at purchase) with same style Flat4s, basically because previous owner had some kerb interaction denting and scratching the lip on one or two of the rims, so I want to replace them either way...

But I must say that I'm a bit in question as to replace one "replica" with another "replica" here. I've also heard/read about the difference in finish and "quality", but does anyone has any close up pictures that could possibly be shared on the subject? Like details for the spokes, lug nut holes etc.

As for "company X versus company Y", well, sure I'd rather spend my $ at Flat4 for being more part of the scene as such and the overall "feel", but I'd also like to make pretty sure that the actual finish and quality is there, rather than a perception of the same.    ...Edit: that did not come out ok, I meant this in relation to MWS of course. I do not doubt that the quality of Flat4 as such.

Also, the weight, is it actually so that the MWS wheel is heavier than the Flat4? if we talk about the same dimensions of course. If the Flat4 is indeed lighter, than another point to the pro's list for Flat4 of course! 

cheers,

[qubek]

As for "company X versus company Y", well, sure I'd rather spend my $ at Flat4 for being more part of the scene as such and the overall "feel", but I'd also like to make pretty sure that the actual finish and quality is there, rather than a perception of the same. 

I'd prefer to spend my $ at Flat 4 too. The point is, that I would have to spend more $ and I would get wheels without center caps and without lugs an bolts. In addition,  MWS's had better dimensions. I can spend more to get a product from someone I'd like to support - I do it quite often. But in this case, I would have to pay much more and get much less. In addition, as far as Flat 4's quality is concerned, I had their shifter and I was really disappointed. I respect Flat 4 and Mr. Komori. I know how important he is for our hobby. In fact if he didn't copy BRMs first, I doubt that MWS would do it. He discovered and showed that there is a market for items like that. Still, I'm a little bit afraid that people are biased because of that. After reading a lot in internet how poor MWS quality is, I asked my friend who had an opportunity to compare it side by side to do it. He said - I can see no difference in finish. Sorry. We bought MWS's. Especially that negative opinions about MWS quality come usually from UK. Americans who don't know that "MWS are the bad gays" have a slightly different opinion (in general). Maybe that's just my impression, but compare volszone to american forums.
So we can take into account who's business we prefer to support. But this should not have an influence on our replays when someone asks for quality.   

Also, the weight, is it actually so that the MWS wheel is heavier than the Flat4? if we talk about the same dimensions of course. If the Flat4 is indeed lighter, than another point to the pro's list for Flat4 of course! 

Didn't check, but first of all they do not come in the same dimensions, and second - I use them on daily driver, so weight factor has an insignificant meaning. MWS's didn't seem to be heavy though, when I had them in my hands.

That being said, if everything else was equal, I would choose FLAT 4. But it's not equal

[streetvw]

I've never really looked that closely at either of the different manufacturers rims, but I have read of some of the problems with the MWS rims on other forums. to me it would seem that the rim castings are in general ok with both manufacturers (ok one is said to be heavier) if it's just an issue with finish then surely it would be best to strip all the manufacturers paint finishes off and detail them to suit your own requirements.

Personally I don't like the look of the shiny centres on BRM spokes and there are paints available that would give the rough look of the original castings which I think looks much better and so long as the castings are ok the rest should be OK for polishing

Just my 2 pence worth! 

[62 Ragtop]

Hi qubek,

I agree, and hence my comments concerning percieved quality and finish.  On my former bug I had a set of raw BRMs (from MWS) and I never felt that they lacked in terms of quality as such, perhaps a bit different when you have an "unfinished" surface, but nonetheless.   

That is why I was looking for some more evidence in terms of up close pics to be able to compare what people are saying (not that I don't take peoples word for it).

Finish is one thing, that can always be remedied by some DYI actions, but I was also more after any differences in the actual castings, that could give a slightly different look between the two manufacturers.

My mistake, I was under the impression that they had the same dimentional options available. As for weight, sure my car is by no means a race car, perhaps not even a weekend warrior, but it is not a daily driver either, and any weight loss is always welcome. 

As for MWS as a company, I really don't have a clear cut opinion. I know that they seem to be a huge "wheel supplier", and that is what they live by, and that they carry a lot of repros of various desirable wheels, not only for VWs (I used to tinker with Mini Coopers years ago - and came across MWS at that time too). I've also caught up on the rejected mouldings story and whatnot. I don't know if they are "bad guys" in that sense, but I do look upon them as a "mass producer", and that is always a bit tricky when it comes to replicating highly desirable originals. Some batches might be better than other batches, some replicas might just be a quick shot to jump on the bandwagon to make a few quid based on the fascination by some odd guys (us on this forum!) for old looking wheels... 

Hmm, this requires some more back 'n forth thinking I guess.

Cheers,

[Shubee2 (DSK)]

As for "company X versus company Y", well, sure I'd rather spend my $ at Flat4 for being more part of the scene as such and the overall "feel", but I'd also like to make pretty sure that the actual finish and quality is there, rather than a perception of the same. 

I'd prefer to spend my $ at Flat 4 too. The point is, that I would have to spend more $ and I would get wheels without center caps and without lugs an bolts. In addition,  MWS's had better dimensions. I can spend more to get a product from someone I'd like to support - I do it quite often. But in this case, I would have to pay much more and get much less. In addition, as far as Flat 4's quality is concerned, I had their shifter and I was really disappointed. I respect Flat 4 and Mr. Komori. I know how important he is for our hobby. In fact if he didn't copy BRMs first, I doubt that MWS would do it. He discovered and showed that there is a market for items like that. Still, I'm a little bit afraid that people are biased because of that. After reading a lot in internet how poor MWS quality is, I asked my friend who had an opportunity to compare it side by side to do it. He said - I can see no difference in finish. Sorry. We bought MWS's. Especially that negative opinions about MWS quality come usually from UK. Americans who don't know that "MWS are the bad gays" have a slightly different opinion (in general). Maybe that's just my impression, but compare volszone to american forums.
So we can take into account who's business we prefer to support. But this should not have an influence on our replays when someone asks for quality.   

Also, the weight, is it actually so that the MWS wheel is heavier than the Flat4? if we talk about the same dimensions of course. If the Flat4 is indeed lighter, than another point to the pro's list for Flat4 of course! 

Didn't check, but first of all they do not come in the same dimensions, and second - I use them on daily driver, so weight factor has an insignificant meaning. MWS's didn't seem to be heavy though, when I had them in my hands.

That being said, if everything else was equal, I would choose FLAT 4. But it's not equal

There Is a Big Difference here are the pictures of Both The Lug Holes, the Windows between the spokes are smaller on the MWS wheels,

[autobarnhauler]

u simpley get what u pay 4,  flat4 all the way

[jaakko]

Is this nice? 


German car and japonible tokio-what ever has it 4all center cups?

[lowfastbus]

I agree the Flat4's looks better out of the box...
but you can get the MWS ones in a bare version without the paint.
Detail them yourself and you got a great looking CHEAP wheel.

Jelle

[cal-look.net]

hmmm

just found this post in the archives!


I was going to bite the bullet and by some Flat-4 BRMs next month, but don't like the sound of the changed finish!

what are peoples thoughts on the mk 2s?!