Does SIZE really matter?

[dirk zeyen]

hello dave,

look at the DKP-SITE, there is your valve-size 42/37.5 i only read carefull..
thanks for information!!!
so there is no improvment with that bigger valve.
nowadays engines get bigger but not better.

fantastic car, like ratto said, don't sell it!!!

dirk zeyen

[Bewitched666]

I'm building 2 engines and one is a 1904(74x90.5) with w125,42x37 heads,45mm dells or maybe 48's,10.0 cr and the other one is a old skool 1679 engine with w120 cam,40x35.5 heads with 40mm dells or 48 IDA's with 9.5 cr.

I ran a similar 1679 engine when i started in callook which ran in the 14's(stock 4.37 gearbox with superdiff) and i ran a 1914cc engine with 42x37 heads,IDA's and w130cam with a close ratio gearbox in the 13's

I think like one posted here is the why buy a 78 crank if a 82 is 30$ more kinda attitude and like Jim Ratto once said alot are building
the internet engines and copying alot what others are doing without really knowing why.

[Hotrodvw]

The trend I've seen (W/o knowing much about engine building) is people building huge detuned stokers.  Big CC's, low compression, mild cams, etc...  Personally, I'd almost have the smaller high strung motor as long as it's streetable.   

[Udo]

I think like one posted here is the why buy a 78 crank if a 82 is 30$ more

The 78 is stronger and the case lasts longer . I use it because i have a good used okrasa crank in stock 
A 78 or smaller with VW journals is the strongest crank , except one with porsche journals
Udo

[j-f]

About the valves sizes, lot's of people think that bigger is better, but with big valves, don't you think there is a loose of flow speed?
The volume of gaz will increase, but if there is too much "room" the speed will decrease?

I was thinking about that. 

[rick m]

J-F,

Volumetric efficiency has a lot of factors.  Bigger Valves are almost a must with bigger bores if you want maximum horsepower.  There is a relationship between valve size and the size and volume of the cylinder.  Cam, carburetion, compression, port work, all play an integral part.

One of the things I did on my 2110 street motor, in the mid 90's, was use big block type technology.  I figured I would build the motor relatively big (not compared to a 94x84) and use a mild cam and mildly modified heads. At the time, Dean Lowry did my 40x35.5 heads for me, since he was conveniently close to me here in Phoenix.  I ran a PAUTER cam, 15/8 header and MSD ignition.  I was not going for being the fastest on the block.  I wanted it to be capable of driving anywhere, at any time, without any concerns.

I really like small motors. It was about all I could affored to build when first in the hobby in the early 70's.  My first motor was an 87x69 with a crazy Sig Erson cam, Sig Erson bushed rockers (boy where they soft material) and a holley two barrel. Later, I put 44 webers on it.  After dropping a valve in #3, I bought a Bud Whitfield 74mm stroker (Cast rull circular crank - WEBER [not the carburetor mfg]  also made them), some 92s from DDS, along with my first set of 48's, a Norris drag cam and ran an 010 distributor and fortuned exhaust.   I ended up with a 1968cc motor.  While the stroker motor pulled with noticeably more torque,  the old 87 motor was an RPM machine and still very fun.  One of the reasons I dropped valve is I was always tisting it too tight.  Still,  I have a personal preference for strokers, even though I am very impressed with the performance of my first stock stroke in a long time.  I built a driver motor for my chop top that is a fun ride.  I know I could get it into the 14s easily with a better trans.

Every motor combination will have different requirements. Since the late70's and to date, I have always run stroker cranks, of all sizes.  I like the extra bottom end torque and pull they add to the ride.  What makes engine building so much fun is trying so many different things.  I just short blocked a 94x84 motor over the weekend with a K7 cam I am going to try.  It will have CNC heads (CB style), 42 x 37, 1.4 rockers, 1 5/8 exhaust and my IDAs are going on it after I get the motor broke in on the 44s.  I've been working with the COMPUFIRE Ignition. This is the first time I have run it. I has multiple coils and a pointless distributor. It has worked well on the 1915motor that has been in the chop top.  I will transplant that motor into my oval now that it is fully broke in.

Build what you like and can afford. One thing I am a big believer in is the stock heads for their cooling capability.  My 2110 that Dean Lowry did the heads on were built on stock VW dual ports, welded and then bigger seats installed.  They were very efficient and that particular motor ran cool even in the Arizona heat. Tested it out on a drive to Detroit, Michigan, and back to Phoenix, in 1997.  Close friend Don Bulitta and I left in early May and hit 110 degree temps on our way through the desert heat, from Phoenix through Vegas and on up to Salt Lake City, where we met Art Thraen.  My motor never went past 210 on the entire trip and back east actually ran so cool I was a little worried about it. Big motors can be just as reliable as small engines. Don't let size worry you.  If you plan to drive it a lot...just don't overcam it for the application.  If it is a Friday night warrior, a burger joint cruiser, or a short drive to work car, throw a killer cam in it and have fun.  Application needs to be considered when building it so you are not unhappy with the outcome.

Any engine combination, if purpose built, needs to be assembled with the same thoroughness.  I focus on good oiling and paying attention to all the factory type clearances on things like play on the rods (side clearances), oil pump clearance on the gears to the face of the full flow cover, rods being straight and bored end to end for alignment, balancing, how you set up your rocker geometry, lifter bore mods for better oiling, checking the seating surfaces for the oil relief pistons, and all the little things that make a big difference no matter what size your motor.  Everyone has learned things from trial and error.  Those seem to be the things we remember most.

This forum has the equivalent of generations of experience.  You should be able to gain a lot of great insights from the years of experience that comment on this site.

Rick M

[bugnut68]

Nothing wrong with running a big 2332+, besides the $$$

But necessary for fast street car? Don't look down your nose @ 2000cc and under.

We've had these topics before, small old school motors, 12 sec 1776's and so on.

Thing is 12 second et in a VW is bordering on psychotic! A 14 sec ride is enough to open your eyes, especially in something as raw as a VW Bug. A good running 1776 should easily dip into the 14's, and easily hold its own at the stoplight showdown. A better running 1776, yes in street tune, welcome to the 13's. Thing is, so many 1776's, etc. get shortchanged with the monkey-see, monkey do recipe...  110 Engle, low CR, crusty out of the box heads. Leaves too much on the table. So the general consensus is "you gotta build a 2276 to make any hp", and nobody takes the smaller cc stuff seriously.

In the 1990's I helped guys with a few fast smaller cc motors, all 14 second or faster motors, the fastest being a 12.80 1914. None of them were what I would call grenades, a few of them were daily drivers. One had some serious $ into it, and it was the daily driver 1679.

I guess the point here is to spread acceptance of stock stroke motors.... and to convince guys that you can have a fast ride with one. No reason to look past building a 1776, K8, 40 x 35 heads with the kinks worked out, 9.0:1 and some 44mm + carbs.  Simple and easy recipe for a 13 sec car.

This post has inspired me... I'd love to build a faster 1776 using my existing engine in my '70 (no, not the cast crank, .060 line bored case I just bought cheap, hehe)... I'd love to see what I could do with a nonstroker engine, especially since I have the goods available for further build up.

[Hotrodvw]

That's where Im at Ryan.  What can I make my 1641 do exactly??............Other than blow up.   

[fish]

Awesome topic Ratto,

The old adage, "its not the size that matters, its the way you use it".

Just what a lot of people have already said, there are applications and budgets for both types of engines, I guess it comes down to where in the RPM range you want to make the most power.

We all know well balanced stock stroke engines with the right parts can be made to rev and rev some more, while strokers can be built to provide a lot more bottom end torque using a short rod ratio. With the addition of welded, ported heads like Fumios, Timms, Bergs etc. wilder cam, longer H-beams, solid valve train, induction and exhaust, close ratio box, both motors can start seeing 12sec and still be streetable.

I personally think that heaps of guys are too conservative on cam selections and too hung up on off the shelf parts, ie.heads, therefore trying to salvage their budget.

Currently building two engines: one stroker as below, one 1776  with mostly stock internals, usual mods, GB310, dual springs, straight cuts, light rotating assembly, 48 idfs, 1/58, etc.

AS41 shuffle pinned, full flow, tapped galleys, sump etc.
84mm crank
90.5b Bergs
5.5 Pauter rods
V9E0 Pauter cam
straight cuts
Scat lifters
1.4 Scat Rockers
Cro-mo pushrods
45 Dells
1 5/8
Ex Race heads 42x37.5, welded, K800, Berg retainers & lash caps

[Jim Ratto]

Awesome topic Ratto,

The old adage, "its not the size that matters, its the way you use it".

Just what a lot of people have already said, there are applications and budgets for both types of engines, I guess it comes down to where in the RPM range you want to make the most power.

We all know well balanced stock stroke engines with the right parts can be made to rev and rev some more, while strokers can be built to provide a lot more bottom end torque using a short rod ratio. With the addition of welded, ported heads like Fumios, Timms, Bergs etc. wilder cam, longer H-beams, solid valve train, induction and exhaust, close ratio box, both motors can start seeing 12sec and still be streetable.

I personally think that heaps of guys are too conservative on cam selections and too hung up on off the shelf parts, ie.heads, therefore trying to salvage their budget.

Currently building two engines: one stroker as below, one 1776  with mostly stock internals, usual mods, GB310, dual springs, straight cuts, light rotating assembly, 48 idfs, 1/58, etc.

AS41 shuffle pinned, full flow, tapped galleys, sump etc.
84mm crank
90.5b Bergs
5.5 Pauter rods
V9E0 Pauter cam
straight cuts
Scat lifters
1.4 Scat Rockers
Cro-mo pushrods
45 Dells
1 5/8
Ex Race heads 42x37.5, welded, K800, Berg retainers & lash caps

Fish, thanks. The heads pictured resemble a few of the heads I have used, namely the heads that were put to good use on the 1914 FK10 48IDA motor that pulled front wheels, and went 12.81. also port shape is very similar to Pauter "A" heads I ran on my street motor in the very early 1990's and then were later put on Sheep's 1914, K8 48IDA street motor.

I agree with you. Too many people adhere to the unfounded fear that an aggressive cam is going make a smaller motor a soggy soft mashed potato. If the larger cams were coupled with proper heads (notice I didn't say huge hogged out tunnel ports!) and intake and exhaust, the results are nothing to be afraid of..... unless you have a fear of speed or have no brakes. Of course, this statement is only aimed at those that want a higher output than the garden variety 90.5x69, Engle 110, etc etc etc. And of course, it is aimed at those that are aware of the fact that they are going to have to drive it with the powerband taken into consideration. I wouldn't tell somebody with a Bus to build a 1776 with Engle 125 or K8 and welded VW heads and 44mm+ carbs.

I just think it's a shame that so many people dodge really squeezing some hp from "what they have" and instead, wring their hands in frustration and anxiety over aftermarket aluminum cases and very long stroke cranks, and a host of expensive aftermarket parts, that may or may not work together. In the 1990's, this became common at the shop I worked at. The engine builder would line up a big 2332cc, Street Eliminator heads, big Sact crank, aftermarket rods, etc etc etc.... thousands of $'s.  And in the end, since the heads were out of the box and he always erred on the (way) conservative side of cam choice.....often selecting an Engle 110. It would frustrate the brains out of me! We had a customer dump big $ into this big lazy unresponsive "truck motor", and one of my friend's little 1776/W125/44IDFs would clean its clock, for a lot less fuss and $.

Sure big cc engines do impress. They're brawny, rumbly, and sometimes downright terrifying, snorting and growling and trying to get out past the trans back there. But they are expensive, complex, and unfortunately, I think that kind of discourages guys, and sort of divides the hobby, as much as I hate to see it. The general belief is if you aren't 2000cc +, you aren't serious. Hogwash!
Remember, once you build those great big lungs of a 2200+ thing, you need to fill them with a lot of air. Why build a big dinosaur that can't run on good VE?
The stock stroke stuff deserves more credit. The Volkswagen engine is a jewel to hot rod. The quality of so many of the stock parts is such that they can survive as a team member that is willing to triple the stock hp level. How many other cars out there allow a guy to build a simple motor in his garage taht can double or triple the original HP?
You guys that wonder if you should "even bother" with hotrodding a smaller cc engine....  I can tell you from experience.... you're going to get more enjoyment and fun out of just going for it than waiting and saving and waiting and then soemtimes maybe just getting burnt out or compromising the quality somewhere. The VW motor can take it, I drove my super-tuned little 1641 for years, without a worry, without a problem, and without losing many street races.
Hope this helps..
Jim

[Peter]

Hi guys,
what is so wrong with an internet motor?
I think i have one: maybe you know the specs: CNC heads, ....
but if you have no experience ( no flow bench, cam knowledge,...)
i do not know at all if my heads complement the cam and compression well
actually i dont know anything about that
so what options do you have other then ask experienced people if you want to build it yourself?
isnt it better to build a "known or similar" recipe?
if i

[Peter]

if i am now not happy with the motor, i use the trial and error method and try something different

what do you think?

[Jim Ratto]

if i am now not happy with the motor, i use the trial and error method and try something different

what do you think?

what makes you unhappy with it?

[fish]

Jim, you are right about what you said, far too many people don't take the time to research before they out lay money for parts or even complete engine and yes the stock German parts are more than capable of handling 2-3 times more HP than stock, key is good machine work, right tolerances, balancing and purpose.

Ruff, it sounds like you have the money to spend on trial and error if you're not building it yourself, I think the whole idea of this topic is to make people more aware of what can be done in ones own garage with a little guidance from the pros willing to share their information and I have by no means anywhere near their level of knowledge, just giving it a go mate.
It also depends on what you mean by internet motor? Purchased on the net or built by ones self with input from people on the net.


Big Engine - big lungs, big heads, big cam, high compression, more suck, bang, blo ,  more snap but also piston side load with short ratio, more $$$, more broken gearboxes.

Small Engine - smaller lungs, port velocity, medium compression 8.5:1, max 40 x 35 valves HD springs, I personally like stock cast heads with home porting, anyone that can operate a dremmel can do their own head work, plenty of step by step posts out there, match ported manifolds, med cam Pauter T2 or GB 309, rockers to suit, 44idf, merged headers, etc.
This engine is a blast to drive in any street beetle, ghia or T3, won't cost a lot to build and should pull 14-15sec. Thats fast by any muscle car/ricer  standards.

In practice both engines can be built to run Supercar times ie 12sec and both will cost roughly the same @ that kind of tune although its hard to say which will be more reliable.

Once again, I can't stress enough about getting your heads sorted for the purpose of your vehicle.


Maybe we should make a list of motors that we have or had someone build with:

Type of car and intended use:

Type of gearbox:

Engine parts used:

Performance:

[dirk zeyen]

Building a Fast and Reliable Engine
By Mark Herbert
 
on the other forum.

very interresting-no monster valves, no monster cam, that's the way i like to go.

my next engine:

78X94
w120 with 1.25
40/35.5 or 40/37.5  not welded just poted and polished(dual springs )
45 dells
1 5/8 merged with dynomax
everything match ported

but first i like to put my stock size valved 2007cc in the low 14sec

dirk zeyen

[Udo]

Hi Dirk
It all depends on what you want to do with it , go fast on the street or strip or both . What is fast    Every engine gets slow for you after sometime  . So the best way is to let it grow up during the years.
I started in 1984 with 1600 cc and 15's on the strip . That was fast  .

Our Paula car makes fun too , 90,5x76,4 engine 40x35 valves M5 pauter cam ,original rockers 140 hp a real streetcar and 14,7 best ET . original long ring and pinion gearbox
The black 67 is faster but not good for street use ,94x82 engine 46x38 valves engle cam 1.4 Berg rockers 212 hp and best et 12,1 . all FTC short gears 4,125 ring and pinion

Udo

[Jim Ratto]

Building a Fast and Reliable Engine
By Mark Herbert
 
on the other forum.

very interresting-no monster valves, no monster cam, that's the way i like to go.

my next engine:

78X94
w120 with 1.25
40/35.5 or 40/37.5  not welded just poted and polished(dual springs )
45 dells
1 5/8 merged with dynomax
everything match ported

but first i like to put my stock size valved 2007cc in the low 14sec

dirk zeyen

Sounds like a good engine, Dirk.

Wouldn't it be fun to have all the time and money in the world to play with this stuff, just to see what happens?
Like maybe we'd find a smaller 1800cc engine with stock vlave diameter would go thru traps faster than a bigger cc engine on stock valves would (maybe the VE is so poor in the big motor gasping for air and trying to get exhaust out).  

One motor I've always had a good gut feeling about, and would love to build for somebody or myself would be a 1700 (88x69) with Engle 125, oval-port 40 x 37 VW heads, 9.5:1, 48IDAs and a 1-1/2" header. Or maybe a K8 with 1.4.

I was surprised how well stock heads (aside from plunge cutting for 9.5:1) worked on an 1835 Kadron motor that we put an Engle VZ15 in. Not only did it rip off idle, but had a definite "on the cam" powerband, which really surprised me considering that cam. The dry sump pulley and Crown flywheel didn't hurt engine response either. Those Kadrons were a pair of the happiest carburetors I've ever ran, amazing how much of a beast that motor turned out to be. I know, I know.... VZ cams.... what was I thinking?
I was thinking max hp per $ in this case, not driving cross country for the rest of my life with it. The motor was going in a play buggy. I'd love to build a replica of this one too.

One thing I used to wonder about, but since have gotten away from after building one, was a motor with a lot of port volume (intake) but short duration. In my opinion, you lose all around. The big ports made for a lazy mid range and the short-ish duration short circuited the top end. Conversely, the 2165 in my car now has almost 20 deg more duration (@ .050) than that combo, a tad smaller port diam, and it is BETTER all around, velvet smooth down low and mid, and sinister top end pull above 4200.

Anyway, back on topic. Before deciding on 94 x 86....  give that stock stroke a go...

[nicolas]

bus motors usually have 90.5's now...

that really made me laugh!!

but i do like Dave's engine better. 

[Jon]

Does size really matter? Nope... heads matter!
Keeping the size down gives you all kinds of bonuses... like low weight, low cost, small physical engine, more stock parts... and more money left for head porter

[dirk zeyen]

69X90.5
w125
compression 9.5/1
valve size stock ported and polished
match porting
1 1/2 merged dual quiets

light weight bug no bumpers no resto cal interrior

gearbox: 0.93 4th  4.125 r/p  tires on the track 195/50-15 tires on the street 195/65-15

fun without much money

dirk zeyen

[Peter]

what makes you unhappy with it?

nothing yet everything feels fast after a 1200
but i meant that if you are not happy with something about your motor, you try something else, like bigger cam ,...
its that what makes your learn things about your motor,
i think an internet motor is some recipe that you follow that you have seen on internet, thats exactly what i did:
also because it is my first motor that i built, so i wanted something common and not exotic...
but in the end its all a guess that all parts will work together:)

cheers, Peter

[javabug]

This looks like a pretty good deal for someone.  About the same as what I'd do with my 1835 in the future:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=679178

[Udo]

This is now to show what you can do with original heads , I think they should do well for my 88x78 engine . 42x35,5 valves and for street use with the best cooling you can get with ports like this size .

Relocated 12 mm spark plugs , so you have enough material to the seats and NEVER get cracks .

I do this work for over 20 years now and all heads are still alive , on the street , strip or circuit track 

[Udo]

Welded above and below the intake ports , ported to the max size i would do with those heads , i had up to 220 hp with 041 heads . A lot of companies did this , i know that Clyde Berg still does this work . I keep the nose for valve guide in the port to be shure the guides will not get loose or move when cutting the guide boss for double springs .

[Udo]

I still recommend this for german street use because the exaust ports get cooled .

[Udo]

Spar plugs angeled to get more clearance from spark plug to manifold

[Jim Ratto]

Welded above and below the intake ports , ported to the max size i would do with those heads , i had up to 220 hp with 041 heads . A lot of companies did this , i know that Clyde Berg still does this work .

very similar to the heads I ported for my street motor

[Udo]

Jim , but yours are 044cb heads  . These i recommend for 94 bore !!

I ported both my OWN IDF manifolds that are made for bigger ports without welding . They are very large inside and need not much work .

[Udo]

And my IDA's without welding !! I will see on the dyno if the engine needs IDA carbs