Installing heads without pushrods tubes 1st to allow sealant to set up

[Brandon Sinclair]

Broke in a new engine this week and I thought all went well until I checked it out the next morning and there was a drop of oil coming from the 1 and 2 side.  I ran it without the cylinder tin and the leak is more like a weep since it is so slow, but I need to fix it since it should be bone dry.  I believe it is coming from the bottom of both the #1 and #2 cylinder to case connection areas.  I have shuffle pins and used Curil T under the big washers so I don't think it is coming from any of those nuts.

Anyway, I am bummed about having to throw the engine on the stand and tear the 1/2 side apart for re-sealing.  I use a shim under the cylinder to get the desidered deck height and I used the CB big mouth pushrod tubes for the first time on this engine and used Hylomar as the sealant since it has never let me down until now.  I noticed when originally torquing down the heads and pushrod tubes that the CB ones are much more rigid then the stock pushrod tubes since the CB only have the accordian section on one side while the stock tubes have them on both sides.  I am wondering if this may have led to the cylinders not seating all the way on the bottoms.

I have used Dirko on cylinders on this engine before and it leaked on the same side as well.  I wonder if it is something in the case that I am missing or maybe the deck surface area is not completely flat.

I read that some people actually install the cylinders and heads and torque them up without the pushrod tubes in order to help the RTV seal quickly and then maybe the next day they will go back and remove the head and install the pushrod tubes.  Is this a good idea?  I am probably over analyzing this right now, but am looking for any tips for this damn engine that is causing me problems.

Thanks

[Frenchy Dehoux]

     Brandon

     I always install the heads on the heads studs at the same time you install the push rod tubes with the push rods on the inside to help the tubes not to fall and a small amount of sealer on the seals than you install the washers and the nut on a few threads until you have all of them on. Than you start to tighten them up evenly in a kris  cross pattern until they are all snug.  Than you go back with your torque wrench and have it set to 20 pounds on all 8 of them than you go back and torque them to the last torque recommended.  After the heads have been torque you make sure that the push rod tubes are nice and straight on the ends.  Next !!!

   Take care
   Frenchy

[Brandon Sinclair]

Thanks Frenchy.

Yes, I have always installed the cylinders, then the slid the head on, then the pushrod tubes, then the washers/nuts inside the head with sealant and the ones outside without and snugged it down and torqued to 20 ft lbs. 

For some reason this case continues to weep on this side so I am re-thinking my procedure to see if I am forgetting something.  Probably over analyzing it though.  I will tear into it tomorrow to see what it looks like-do not have the patience to do it today so I will take a break instead.

Any suggestions on sealant for under the cylinders this time.  On this case I have used Dirko and Hylomar and they both weep.  I have a box of used sealants so I can just grab some RTV or I am willing to try something else as well.  Anyone have any luck with the Right Stuff by Permatex that comes in that cheese wiz like dispenser?

[Diederick/DVK]

Loctite 574?
mine came in a syringe and works like a charm, so far.

[Jim Ratto]

Hi Brandon,

are you running H beam rods? Did you spin the motor over a bunch as a shortblock? Sometimes, when H beam rods are used, they saw little v-shaped grooves on edges of cylinder spigots. One reason I preach to not turn motors over until they're ready to crank for pre-oil pressure just before fire up. I know, it's a nice tactile sensation to spin over a nicely buit motor by hand, it does feel good....
I have used Loctite 574 "Porsche" sealant under barrels on all motors since 1997 or so, also on oil pump gaskets, cam plug, under 12mm case washers, and it works. I have never had to "pre cure" the sealant under the barrels, though I will admit, that when I built my FK10 2276 in 1995 that I pre ran it on a stand in my garage on singles, then lifted heads to switch to duals before it went into my car, and in doing so, I disturbed the seal @ bottom of barrels (all 4) and it leaked. That was using the green Curil (T). So I stopped doing that and stopped using green Curil and motors have been dry.

Hope this helps, and thanks for having Sean call me on the 1915/FK4- cams, it was nice to rap with him about it.

have a good one,
Jim

[Brandon Sinclair]

Thanks for the info.

I will be sure to check the case/cyl seating area Jim since I am using H beams in this motor, but did not notice anything during assembly and I was paying close attention to that side.  Do you know of any shop up this way that carries Loctite 574-I saw Pelican Parts has it and will ship.  I am hoping to have it apart and back together by the end of the week and running again if time permits.

Sean is a good guy trying to help BH survive, and is into the aircooled scene.  He wants to do a 1914 for his brothers 56 oval with 40x35.5 heads and was wondering what cams to use.  I told him to run it buy you when he called in a parts order and ask for your advice regarding the K8, FK series and the VZ-15 (esp since you posted that rolling dyno figure post with the speedster at Hallorans in Pinole).  I told him I still owe you a few cases of beer when I get some time to go to LA and visit!

Again thanks for the info guys.  This is what is in my sealant box now (that I can remember offhand): loctite 518, ultra gray, ultra black, ultra blue, ultra copper, yamabond, curil T, hylomar, aviation permatex, 3M gorilla snot...I am sure there are more.  Guess I am looking to add loctite 574 and maybe the Right Stuff in the cheese wiz type dispensor.

[Jim Ratto]

what city are you close to during the day Brandon?

[Frenchy Dehoux]

    Just remember if you are going to use any type of silicone under the cylinders you do not need much of it.  I buy my sealant for under the cylinders and between the case and anywhere else on the engine from Ron Fleming at FAT Ron has the best sealant for that.

    Frenchy

[nicolas]

  I will tear into it tomorrow to see what it looks like-do not have the patience to do it today so I will take a break instead.

that will work i am sure. 9 out of 10 that does it for me.

574 works good on my 1641 so far.

[Brandon Sinclair]

In the Walnut Creek Concord area but if you know of a shop anywhere in the area that carries 574 let me know.

Thanks.

[Jim Ratto]

In the Walnut Creek Concord area but if you know of a shop anywhere in the area that carries 574 let me know.

Thanks.

Cool. Call Carlos @ 925 944 5606, tell him Jim Ratto and Mario from IMC sent you. He should have it by tomorrow morning.
He's @ 1573 3rd Ave in Walnut Creek.

[Brandon Sinclair]

Thanks Jim-I picked up the 574 from Carlos today.  He has a nice shop.

If I preload the pistons in the cylinders, but I am using cylinder spacers underneath the barrels where do you guys put the sealant?

Typically I would run a small bead on the cylinder base then lightly do both sides of the spacer and slide that on the cylinder base then install it on the rod and slide it down to seat.

[Jim Ratto]

Thanks Jim-I picked up the 574 from Carlos today.  He has a nice shop.

If I preload the pistons in the cylinders, but I am using cylinder spacers underneath the barrels where do you guys put the sealant?

Typically I would run a small bead on the cylinder base then lightly do both sides of the spacer and slide that on the cylinder base then install it on the rod and slide it down to seat.

Cool. Yeah Carlos is a good guy.
Hey I forgot to mention, make sure your cyl shims/spacers don't have any raised edges or burrs, especially at "notches" for head studs. If there is evidence of them, dress 'em down with a file.
I put the spacer on cylinder, then run a bead around the "bottom" of the spacer, installed on cylinder. So in effect, the base of the spacer gets sealant and contacts case.
You sure heads studs/case savers are not the culprit?

[Brandon Sinclair]

I ran a file and a stone over the spacers to make sure they were flat, and the case is shuffle pinned on all 6 so there should not be a leak, but I did use Curil T underneath the washers for a precaution anyways.  I know it is not any of the top 3 big nuts since I ran it without the cyl tin and also the big nut by the flywheel is eliminated as well, but it could be either of the 2 nuts that surround the #2 cylinder.

Have you seen case savers leak before?  Not sure how to eliminate these from the cause of the leak.

For sure the pushrod tubes are not the cause and I see some green oil (Brad Penn) on the 2 fins closest to the case on the #2 cylinder.

I will throw it up in the stand tonight and see how far I get.  Maybe that will give me a clearer idea where it is coming from.