thicker torsion bars

[nicolas]

i read a post about bigger torsion bars and coil over shocks in the racing section working against each other and it made me think about my setup. i have a heavy type3 with 30mm torsion bars and spax shocks which can be stiffened.

i think this setup isn't too good for my car as i think the torsion bars are 'loaded up' from all the weight of the car and if i corner hard the car wants to unload itself and has bad traction.

for now i don't have the shocks set up very stiff, but the ride is already quite stiff, only on cornering the weight shifts from side to side and the car gets a bit jumpy.

what setup do you use one your car (preferably a type3) as i am thinking of going back to original torsion bars and playing with the shocks to get the best ride possible.

[j-f]

Simply try the original torsion bar to see what suits you needs   

[nicolas]

Simply try the original torsion bar to see what suits you needs   

you have spare time to place and replace and rereplace? 

 but yes you are right i will try to find the combo that works, but the idea here was to see what other people think about type3's and stiffer torsion bars

[TexasTom]

I may be wrong, but it sounds as if there may be other settings enhancing the ill-feeling handling.
What wheel & tire combo are you running? Is the vehicle lowered at all? What settings were used for the alignment and are you sure they are correct?

After rebuilding my '69 several years back, I was very disappointed with the handling until I took the time and found I hadn't set up the rear correctly. One side was toed out too much and made the car feel like it was coming around on itself when going through left sweepers and such. After I corrected it, nothing but 
Kinda sounds to me, from your description, there is too much camber in the rear??? Before you have to tear it apart, check and verify correct settings .... Then look at the shocks and such.
30s are BIG ... Is it set up for drag or road racing?

Just trying to help
TxT

[ibg]

there is a huge difference between 22 - 23.5 and 30 mm. look at the Swayaway spring rates for torsion bars! virtually nobody but an off road racer or a heavy pan drag racer would use 30's. I have 28's which are quite stiff for road race with Koni shocks. i'd be thinking 25 - 26 for street. Shocks also make a big difference, i ran Billies on a beetle and they were very stiff due to the gas pressure, 23.5 wagon bars were stiff enough, felt like my 28's with Koni's.

[John Palmer]

I agree with the above suggestions. 

I general "The Spring" (a torsion bar in this case) "carries the weight", and the shock "controls the compression/rebound". 

If you "need" a stronger spring to carry the weight, you also need "a stronger" shock to control the springs rebound after compression.

The car only "needs" enough spring to keep it from bottoming out the suspension during the most severe travel.

A coil wrapped around the shock just adds to the spring rate, or just "a bandaid" on a torsion bar suspension. 

It all needs to work together as a system.  If you have any poly bushings, make sure they do not bind and allow free suspension movement.

You have to set, or at least check the toe setting after you have it apart.

[nicolas]

so you are all confirming my suspicion that indeed the torsion bars are too stiff.

Tom i have checked the settings at a local tyreshop and they set it with a slight tow in (1 degree), the car isn't lowered, just so it has no positive camber.
the reason i got thinking was that post and the fact that when i installed the 30mm torsion bars i was told the car would be 'held' at that point. but with the really heavy backside of a type3 it did sink about an 1"1/2 to 2" so i thought it would 'preload' the car. the KYB gas shocks were no good and i got a lot of wheel hop, but now i have the spas and the ride is much stiffer, but like John said, stiffening up the shocks will act like a bandaid on a wooden leg.
i use new rubber bushings and mostly stock parts apart from the shocks and torsion bars.

i was indeed planning on using variant torsion bars and tune in the rear setting of the camber, toe-in,... and afterwards tune the shocks to get the right setting for my needs.

thanks for confirming my hunch.

[TexasTom]

Nicolass,
Are you saying you're running coilover shocks in addition to the 30mm torsion bars?
If so, have you considered taking the coil spring from the shock and running i them that way?
TxT

[Hotrodvw]

I'm running KYB GR-2's and 26mm bars.  I felt it was a substantial upgrade from the stock 21mm bars.  I can't even fathom a reason to run 30's. 

[John Palmer]

so you are all confirming my suspicion that indeed the torsion bars are too stiff.

Tom i have checked the settings at a local tyreshop and they set it with a slight tow in (1 degree), the car isn't lowered, just so it has no positive camber.


 the KYB gas shocks were no good and i got a lot of wheel hop, but now i have the spas and the ride is much stiffer, but like John said, stiffening up the shocks will act like a bandaid on a wooden leg.

Nicolass, you need to read my post again.  If you run stiffer torsions, then you have to run stiffer shocks to control the rebound.  Best done with a quality adjustable racing shock.  The "bandaid comment" refers to putting a coil spring around a stock shock and also having a torsion bar.

Don't over look the importance of a properly adjusted suspension.  If you work on the rear torsion bars then you need to check for the correct toe in.  It is measured in "a fraction of a inch", not degrees.

[Jon]

when i installed the 30mm torsion bars i was told the car would be 'held' at that point. but with the really heavy backside of a type3 it did sink about an 1"1/2 to 2" so i thought it would 'preload' the car.

I think any normal torsion bar would be able to hold the car at your desired height, you just have to preload it. Meaning just install it slightly "higher" than you would like the outcome to be.

BTW, great post John Palmer

[TexasTom]

Don't over look the importance of a properly adjusted suspension.  If you work on the rear torsion bars then you need to check for the correct toe in.  It is measured in "a fraction of a inch", not degrees.

It has been my experience that the newer computer alignment machines base their readings in degrees. I think (certainly HOPE) they may have the capacity to read in other units, but probably highly dependent on the operators knowledge of the machine's capabilities.
By my calculations, which could definitely be wrong, 1* of toe in seems excessive!? ~=.44"(11.2mm) ... that cant be right ... 
I would think maximum toe should be closer to 16' of a degree which approximately equals .125" ... and I see that as slightly excessive.
Any thoughts?
TxT

[John Palmer]

Don't over look the importance of a properly adjusted suspension.  If you work on the rear torsion bars then you need to check for the correct toe in.  It is measured in "a fraction of a inch", not degrees.

It has been my experience that the newer computer alignment machines base their readings in degrees. I think (certainly HOPE) they may have the capacity to read in other units, but probably highly dependent on the operators knowledge of the machine's capabilities.
By my calculations, which could definitely be wrong, 1* of toe in seems excessive!? ~=.44"(11.2mm) ... that cant be right ... 
I would think maximum toe should be closer to 16' of a degree which approximately equals .125" ... and I see that as slightly excessive.
Any thoughts?
TxT

Tom, I'm a old school guy, LOL.  Not sure I would want somebody that relied on what the computer said working on my car.  This is not rocket science, it's something that anybody can check in their driveway with just a little common sense.  All you need is some tire sticks and a tape measure like they do in circle track racing.  Mine are old rusty 1 1/4 square tubes attached to the wheels with "thread-all" rod.  The important thing is to roll the car first to settle the suspension.  I like to have the driver inside the car and I raise the front end to the ride height "as it would be" going through the lights at the end of the track.  I use "just a tad" of toe in, on a swing axle car.  After you determine the correct toe for your car, make a wire "go, no go" gauge so you can repeat the setting.

[TexasTom]

John!
Old School here TOO! LMAO!
Plumb bobs, straight edge & chalklines for me
Do that VooDoo you do! It works
TxT