porsche 356 wheels

[nicolas]

if i would like to buy a set of these original cal look wheels, what would i be looking for? i see different offsets and probably qualities and makes, so what was offered back in the day and if they would be chromed, which ones have chrome that holds and doesn't chip of first time out the garage?

[edcraig]

The most common were made by Mangles out of brazil.  They had a 4.5 an a 5.5.  The 4.5 was stock offset. 

They imported 1000's of these wheels and from I remember the chrome held up pretty well.

The chinese copies they sell now look about the same, but I'm not sure if I'd want to trust chinese wheels on my car.

...Ed.

[johnl]

The most common were made by Mangles out of brazil.  They had a 4.5 an a 5.5.  The 4.5 was stock offset. 

They imported 1000's of these wheels and from I remember the chrome held up pretty well.

The chinese copies they sell now look about the same, but I'm not sure if I'd want to trust chinese wheels on my car.

...Ed.

I was under the impression the 4.5 was a .5 offset and the 5.5 was 1.0.  You can clearly see this against a stock VW rim as the center is smooth against the outer.  I have a couple of sets of 5.5 Mangles and at least one of the 4.5 which is in our '63 with a 165x15 for the spare.  Because of the tire size and possible offset of this combo I have to keep the air pressure LOW to make it fit in the spare tire well.  I'm thinking if the tire was a 155x15 the fit issue wouldn't exist.

From what I've seen of these wheels from China there are fit issues with any cap.  Seems that the clips are to short or positioned wrong.  Fellow DKP I member Mike Johnston brought his car over and we drilled out the clip rivets on the 4.5 wheels and replaced them with Wolfsberg West units.  This made the caps fit better.  There was no problem installing caps on Mike's rear 5.5 rims. 

Regarding the chrome life, who knows.  I'd keep a good coat of wax on them and park in a garage whenever possible.

[Rennsurfer]

Lemmerz and Mangels are the best in my opinion. I have the 4.5" & 5.5" and really like 'em. To me, they're the best looking wheels ever produced for any car and only second to the Fuchs alloy 911 wheels. If you're going to run caps, the fit is perfect and if you opt for the chrome finish, it holds up really well. All of mine were chrome and the finish cleaned up perfectly on all four wheels. Not bad for 30 year old ones. But I hate chrome and I blasted it off and went with silver. Wanted 'em to look factory and not aftermarket. To each their own. If you're REALLY lucky... you'll find a set of Porsche factory ones (I had a set on my orange '66). But don't hold your breath.

Hope you get a set. They're a great addition to any VW.

[Jim Ratto]

you're running 5 x 205mm? I ran 5.5 Mangles for years but be warned it used to be hard to get a set of four that all ran true. I'd say 1 in 4 were off. We sold the crap out of them in the 90's but took back a bunch too. I went through 3 new ones to get one corner of my car to run true.

Personally, I dig 5 x 130 356C / 912 Porsche steel wheels on a Bug.... my friend Sean runs them on his Java Green '67.

[Lee.C]

I've got myself 2 original 4.5" and 2 new "repro" items for the 65 ,

the repro's are ok I guess but the chrome is pretty "Thin"

I'll post some pic's tomorrow 

[OC1967vw]

Lemmerz was one of several wheel suppliers (Kronprinz another) to VW and Porsche. Their 356B wheels had deep plating. The center lugnut area was not plated (grey) per Porsche specs. The clips were made of spring steel ribbon.  Button head rivet used to attach them. Had talked to them many years ago (to reproduce the 356A/B clip) and they provided their engineering drawings on the clips for the 356A/B wheels. Pre66 clips for VW type 1 wheels were different than those Lemmerz made for Type2 wheels (much shorter in length with different bend angles). WW clips are close reproductions of the Type2 clip..

[Rennsurfer]

Personally, I dig 5 x 130 356C / 912 Porsche steel wheels on a Bug.... my friend Sean runs them on his Java Green '67.

That car looks great with those!

[nicolas]

i would use them on bus in the end, but the BRM's i have now are leaking air so much i want to look at my options to solve that problem. i think a bus has 4.5 all-round but i am not sure on the offset (for a almost like factory look).


thanks for the input already.

[Zach Gomulka]

i would use them on bus in the end, but the BRM's i have now are leaking air so much i want to look at my options to solve that problem. i think a bus has 4.5 all-round but i am not sure on the offset (for a almost like factory look).


thanks for the input already.

15" bus wheels are 4.5" wide. 14's are 5" wide. They both have a LOT of backspace, no aftermarket wheel will come close in that respect.

[hotrodsurplus]

The 356 wheels were in the April 1975 HOT VWs story on Cal Look. That issue basically defined Cal Look so in my estimation anything printed in it can be considered Cal Look.

I did a fair bit of research when I started collecting 356 wheels. Here's what I've learned. Of course all of this applies to the 15-inch wheels. There may be other variations but this is what I found.

As mentioned before two vendors made 356 wheels: Lemmerz and Kronprinz (KPZ). Everyone assumes that they all look the same but they look quite different.

The arch between the rim and the hubcap on the Kronprinz wheel is somewhat flat. The brake-vent holes are somewhat angular and trapezoidal and flush with the surface. The small side of the opening towards the rim is flat. The large side of the opening towards the cap has a modest arch and comes very close to the hubcap.The sides are very flat and have relatively sharp angles where they transition to the large sides.

The area between the rim and hubcap on the Lemmerz wheel has a pronounced arch. The brake-vent holes are not flush with the surface; they dimple down quite dramatically making the holes look very soft and the center very curvy. The side of the opening towards the rim is flat. The large side has a very pronounced arch and does not come as close to the hubcap. The sides of the vents are very round and are not straight in any way.

KPZ referred to its OEM Porsche wheels as 6042A. Lemmerz referred to its OEM Porsche wheels as 1585. Both have the following dimensions:

Width  Backspace  Offset(ET)
4.5"    3.75"          25mm

My knowledge of the KPZ wheels ends there. I do know that KPZ made the Carrera wheels (aluminum rim riveted to a steel center that looks more like a '66-'67 VW wheel). That wheel has more positive offset to compensate for the 60mm drums but I do not know the dimensions.

Lemmerz made a number of wheels that Porsche dealers and aftermarket suppliers like EMPI offered as accessories. Here is what I know about them:

Part #  Width  Backspace  Offset (ET)   
1555   4.5"     3.25           12mm   
1593   4"        3.75           32mm
1872   5"        uknown      unknown

As far as I know the 1555 wheel was sold by Porsche dealers. Presumably it was offered as a means to widen an axle's track. Widening the rear axle's track relative to the front mitigates a swing axle's car tendency to oversteer. Volkswagen did this in 1967 so presumably Porsche did the same but earlier. I do not know this for fact but it is consistent with suspension design. Porsche did offer softer rear torsion bars and a camber compensator as early as 1960 to mitigate the oversteering condition.

The 1593 wheel was sold by EMPI. Dimensionally it is a direct copy of the VW smoothie wheel so presumably it was intended as an accessory for Volkswagen cars.

I do not have any additional information about the 1872 wheel.

The Mangels wheels are not direct copies of the 356 Porshe wheels. They are merely similar and the difference is obvious once you train your eye. The brake vents are a hybrid of the KPZ and Lemmerz wheels. The 4.5 wheel is dimensionally the same as the 1585/6042A and the '66 and '67 Volkswagen Beetle wheel. They have the following dimensions:

Width  Backspace  Offset
4.5      3.75           25mm
5.5      3.75           12mm

It is a good idea for more reason that aesthetics and tire fit to use the 4.5 in the front and 4.5 in the rear. The rear widens the track which, of course, has the net effect of reducing a swing-axle car's tendency to oversteer.

FWIW, a 14x5 transporter wheel has the following dimensions:
Width  Backspace  Offset
5         4.75           45mm

So installing conventional 15x4.5 Porsche 356 or Mangels wheels will widen a transporter's axle track by 20mm each side or 40MM total. I do know for a fact that those wheels will fit with many tires on a transporter.

Installing Lemmerz 1555 15x5.5 Mangels widens a transporter's track by 32mm each side or 64mm total. I know that the 5.5 wheels will fit on a bus with reduction gear boxes but the tire size may be limited. I believe that you would be able to run a very wide tire on a straight-axle transporter with 15x5.5s. It would be a very good thing to widen the track in the rear. Those transporters are very prone to oversteer, especially with reductions and positive camber.

Hope this helps.

[RichardinNZ]

More good information...thanks!

[OC1967vw]

great posting hotrudsurplus...

I purchased mine from the local VW/Porsche dealership (Cotton Goff in Buena Park-Capistrano was too far south-versus Chick Iverson in Newport Beach-versus Vasek Polak on PCH in Redondo Beach the south bay-these were Lemmerz with the grey non-chrome lugnut nut area. I ran these with the Porsche nipple hubcaps.

[hotrodsurplus]

great posting hotrudsurplus...

I purchased mine from the local VW/Porsche dealership-these were Lemmerz with the grey non-chrome lugnut nut area. I ran these with the Porsche nipple hubcaps

Thanks, guys. I'm glad this helps.

I'm familiar with the grayed-out centers on the Lemmerz wheels but I have a KPZ wheel that threw me for a loop. It's entirely chrome, center and all. I never thought to look twice at it early in the day because the all-chrome center made me think that it was just another Mangels wheel. But then I noticed that the brake-vent holes weren't like a Mangels wheel's vents. Apparently everybody else thought it was a Mangels wheel because it was there at the end of the day when I returned. I scooped it for like $5. So it pays to really check out wheels.

I got a set of nearly NOS black-logo VW caps from someone who did exactly what you did. They bought a set of genuine Porsche caps from EMPI and stored the VW caps in the EMPI boxes. The boxes even have the Porsche part number on them! 

[OC1967vw]

In my discussions with Lemmerz several years ago, I asked them about the dark grey center area and why it was not chrome plated. Evidently that was per Porsche specification. They used a wierd set up to rivet the clips in. From what was in their archives, Porsche felt that it was unnecessary since the nipple cap covered the area on the A/B wheels. The old adage of form follows function.

[Gregor/DFL]

Some remarks on the 356 steel wheel discussion:

The china repros being around today are crap. They´re hard to balance, sometimes it´s even impossible.
The Mangels repros are quiet good, but not very easy to find as production stopped a few years ago. It´s possible to mix Mangels with Lemmerz as the shape and the vent holes look nearly similar. KPZ looks different. The big advantage of the Mangels repros is that they come with a double hump as a standard so you can run tubeless tires. All the KPZ and Lemmerz ones are made for tubed tires. Only the 1585 4,5" Lemmerz wheel was also made as a double hump as an aftermarket part starting in the early 1970s. After all I decided to mount Mangels repros all around, 5,5"s on the back (with 165/80, now 195/65) and  4,5" on the front (with 145/80, now 165/65).

[alex1303]

Personally, I dig 5 x 130 356C / 912 Porsche steel wheels on a Bug.... my friend Sean runs them on his Java Green '67.

That car looks great with those!

Yes, I like this 67 Java... and I like them on mine too...

[hotrodsurplus]

The big advantage of the Mangels repros is that they come with a double hump as a standard so you can run tubeless tires. All the KPZ and Lemmerz ones are made for tubed tires.

Please don't take this the wrong way but that is incorrect. The safety beads exist only as a means to temporarily retain the tire on the rim in the event of a sudden failure (blowout). A tube will not duplicate that dynamic. In fact it will shred the instant the tire carcass can no longer hold its shape. The pressure retaining the bead by air pressure exerted on the sidewall greatly exceeds the force that the safety beads can achieve. The beads have no bearing on tire construction.

Proof that tubeless tires do not require safety beads is in Volkswagen's own design. Starting on June 30, 1956 on all models from chassis number 1248030 the company made tubeless tires standard on all standard and export models. Volkswagen did not adopt the beads until the late 1960s.

Nor do radial tires require the beads as Porsche's design confirms. In fact it equipped the very first 911 (9165) with tubeless 165HR15 tires. Porsche did not adopt safety beads until 1968 or so and according to some sources some Fuchs wheels did not get safety beads until the early 1970s.

Tire construction itself dictates whether or not tubes need to be present. An impermeable membrane cast into the tire carcass determines if a tire can operate without a tube. A tire without such a membrane will deflate rapidly. Some older aftermarket wheel castings do require tubes as the porous castings will often leak air. But that is another matter.

[Rennsurfer]

Good looking black '66, Gregor.

[Gregor/DFL]

@ Fred: Thanks!
@ hotrodsurplus: you´re right in your comments. But isn´t a hump/safety beads also there to prevent the tire from slipping off it´s position if you go very fast in a curb? Because if the tire then is moved on the rim, there´s also the risk of a "blow-off"? This is what I was told why it´s not a good idea to use tubeless tires on wheels not having the safety bead...

[hotrodsurplus]

@ Fred: Thanks!
@ hotrodsurplus: you´re right in your comments. But isn´t a hump/safety beads also there to prevent the tire from slipping off it´s position if you go very fast in a curb? Because if the tire then is moved on the rim, there´s also the risk of a "blow-off"? This is what I was told why it´s not a good idea to use tubeless tires on wheels not having the safety bead...

Thanks for asking. The short answer is no, the safety beads do not contribute sufficient force to prevent the tire bead from unseating. Here is an edited/abbreviated version of an explanation that I made on another site:

It takes only a few hundred pounds at the most to push a tire bead over a rim safety bead. You can usually pry the bead loose by hand pressure with a long bar and a block. Pressure from in inflated tire--even very slight pressure--retains a tire's bead to a far greater degree than a safety bead ever could. Forgive the following dimensions for they are in imperial and not metric standards.

The sidewall on a garden-variety 25.5-inch-tall tire on a 15-inch rim has about 330 square inches of surface area. A sidewall that size on a tire inflated to 20psi (slightly more than VW specified on the front of the beetle) has roughly 6,680 pounds exerted upon it. The portion of the tire that comes into contact with the road influences only about 1/4 of the tire's sidewall. That's almost 1,700 pounds in that limited area exerted on the bead. That is what a Volkswagen beetle weighs.

To push the bead away from the wheel lip you would have to overcome the pressure that the air exerts on the inside of the tire in that region. That means you would have to exert approximately the weight of the car on that confined area. And to do that you would have to load the tire absolutely laterally. That means that the tread would have to maintain sufficient traction to develop that force. That is not likely to happen even in a racing application. Not even a gummy race tire on a perfect track surface will develop that kind of lateral load. Case in point, Formula 1 tire beads stay seated despite the lack of safety beads and tubes. And we all know what sort of lateral force THOSE tires endure!

Yes you can knock the bead off the wheel if you slide the wheel sideways into a curb (I have done it myself). But at those forces neither tire pressure nor a safety bead would retain the tire bead against the rim lip. I know this because I have unseated a tire in such a way on an '80s T0yta which of course has safety beads. But that impact also bent the wheel. 

And there is the potential to unseat the bead on a dramatically underinflated tire. That happens frequently in rock crawling. But those tires operate at very low pressures (often less than 10psi) and the vehicles often land directly on the tire sidewall. For those reasons crawlers (and even off road racers who often slide into big obstacles) run wheels with rims that clamp the tire bead to the rim.

That is not to say that you can't run tubes in tubeless tires. If you do run tubes in radials you must use a tube designed for radial-tire use. Also understand that a tube in a tire often increases the tire's operating temperature, especially on radial tires due to their compliant sidewalls.

In conclusion, I am not aware of any universal requirement for passenger cars like ours to run tubes in tubeless tires on wheels that lack the safety profile. A specific wheel or tire manufacturer may suggest or require otherwise but that does not necessarily apply in all circumstances. I hope this makes sense.

[aki]

Actually there were three OEM suppliers for the 356 wheels. In addition to KPZ and Lemmerz there was also Sudrad. One typically run into Sudrad's name with early 16" Porsche wheels, but they supplied also 15" wheels. Unfortunately I do not have details how differenciate it from KPZ and Lemmerz wheels.

br,
Aki

As mentioned before two vendors made 356 wheels: Lemmerz and Kronprinz (KPZ). Everyone assumes that they all look the same but they look quite different.

[hotrodsurplus]

Actually there were three OEM suppliers for the 356 wheels. In addition to KPZ and Lemmerz there was also Sudrad. One typically run into Sudrad's name with early 16" Porsche wheels, but they supplied also 15" wheels. Unfortunately I do not have details how differenciate it from KPZ and Lemmerz wheels.

br,
Aki

Thanks for adding that. I didn't mention Sudrad because I was under the impression that Sudrad made only 16-inch wheels. But it makes sense that it produced them in 15 as well. I have two 16-inch Porsche wheels, one Sudrad and the other I believe Lemmerz. Presumably one was made as a replacement because it has a '56 date code. They look functionally identical to each other.

[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]

[aki]

Sudrads seems to less common or at least much less referred than KPZ or Lemmerz.

Nice pair of 16"s you have there - lucky you! I have been trying to get hold of a set those for years, but no luck so far.

Thanks for adding that. I didn't mention Sudrad because I was under the impression that Sudrad made only 16-inch wheels. But it makes sense that it produced them in 15 as well. I have two 16-inch Porsche wheels, one Sudrad and the other I believe Lemmerz. Presumably one was made as a replacement because it has a '56 date code. They look functionally identical to each other.

[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]

[hotrodsurplus]

Nice pair of 16"s you have there - lucky you! I have been trying to get hold of a set those for years, but no luck so far.

Thanks! I have a bit of a wheel and tire fetish.

I have Pre-A/A drums. Now I just need a split beetle to go with them! 

[RichardinNZ]

Gregor
Looks good; i like the black wheels. Are those Porsche drums?  Is there a spacer on the rear (I thought I could see a shadow between the rim and the drum)?

Thanks
Richard

[hotrodsurplus]

Is there a spacer on the rear (I thought I could see a shadow between the rim and the drum)?

Carrera spacers are common and that's likely what he has on the rear.


The early Carreras got wider front brakes that pushed the wheels out. Porsche corrected the wheel track and scrub radius by fitting wheels that had greater backspace for more positive offset. In fact those wheels had aluminum rims riveted to centers that look a lot like '65 and '66 Beetle wheel centers. They are very light.

Only those wheels narrowed the rear track. In fact I believe that the greater backspace made the tires hit the spring plates, a familiar problem in our world. So Porsche offered those spacers. The Porsche ones are aluminum and thread onto longer studs. The wheels seat on those spacers.

Widening the rear track on a swingaxle car is also a good idea as Volkswagen proved in '67. It reduces the tendency of a swingaxle car to oversteer by lowering the rear center of gravity and increasing the leverage on the rear springs (effectively reducing the spring rate a touch). 

[Gregor/DFL]

@Richard: On the front, I run Custom & Speedparts discbrakes for wide 5s. Those have an aluminium spun hub. To make my drums in the back look the same (as I don´t run hubcaps), I ordered a pair of "drum skinz". Those parts are kind of thin aluminium covers to make beetle brake drums look like 356A drums. Normally those are used for 550 sypder replica cars to add an authentic look. Basically I do not like "fakes" very much, but in this case it was the best way to make the hubs look similar. I also do run spacers on the back (approx. 20mm). I mounted a complete "ring" made of aircraft aluminium. I found these parts on eBay and they´re really nice quality. The Porsche system with 5 single spacers also works, but it´s a pain in the a** to fix them without having a rim center on the wide 5 wheels.

[RichardinNZ]

Thanks for the information; looks good with the aluminium showing.  As I only hve a mildly tuned 36hp I'm likey to stick with stock brakes, although could upgrade to later drums (I have a '58).
When I do finally source some 356 style wheels here, I'm tempted to also paint them black.  I think spacers are out of the question though.....I can alter the wheels but need spacers to be 'certified' which will bring additional cost. 
Thanks
Richard

[RichardinNZ]

2 years on and I still have my stock wheels.  

However I have just heard of a set of mangels which may be for sale here.   However, before I phone about them I think they are 5.5.

Does anyone have any pictures of these shown on the front of a link pin Bug with mildly lowered front?  I'm thinking they are probably going to be too wide?

Thanks
Richard