Advice on oil grades etc?

[Richierich56]

Hi all

After having a discussion with a couple of friends - members on here, and listening to their opinions which are very valued I thought I would open the forum up a bit further regarding engine oil. Please forgive me here as I know its a wide subject but it's one I am keen to get right - for obvious reasons.

I have just taken delivery of my new motor - a 2387 Type 1 (about 1,000 miles) and on speaking with the guy who built it, he said to run semi-synth 10w30 with a zinc additive. Some I have spoken with say that is fine, some say its too thin etc etc. Some run 20w50 oil in high performance motors with no issue and some I have spoken to say that is way too thick etc etc. Is it as simple as "run what the guy who built it says to run" or is there more to it?

Oil system is full flow, external filter, deep sump and I plan on fitting an external cooler also. I am meticulous with oil and filter changes with my cars and this motor will get new oil and filter every 1,000 miles or annually.

I have ran 10w30 semi and fully synth in previous motors with no apparent issues but then again, I'm no engine builder so wouldn't really know WHAT issues would be apparent, other than the obvious.

I suppose, to cut to the chase, my question is, what does everyone run in their motors? I am in the UK so weather/temperature wise probably between 40-80f - car is a weekend warrior and not generally driven in the winter months except for when dry.

Please feel free to tell me I am overthinking this if that applies...!

Thanks in advance.

[Jim Ratto]

A lot of what you may read, in general terms, on the internet, doesn't apply to the hot rod VW engine. Water cooled engines are less susceptible to ambient temperature than our air cooled engines are, both at low and high ambient temperatures.
One thing to keep in mind is valve spring pressure. Spring pressure (stock) can account for 140F of engine oil temperature. I'm not pulling that number out of thin air. My ex-boss and I built an electrically driven type 1 longblock in the mid-late 1990's to "pre-break-in" high perf cams and lifters, before they went into their actual motor. It was driven by an underdrive pulley-belt system and a high amperage electric motor. There were no pistons, just cut-down rod lower ends on the crank, and the intake and exhaust ports were sealed off with aluminum flanges and RTV. Rockers were stock VW as were springs etc. We ran two opposite "cylinders" at a time, for 30 min, with Kendall 40W GT1 (the old green stuff). The case was full flowed and we ran stock bypass springs (but no stock cooler) and a 30mm OEM pump. After the 30 minutes of cycling, the HP1 filter was very warm to the touch, so I stuck a meat thermometer in dipstick hole. It read 140F. This was with no combustion action or piston-ring friction. And stock valve spring pressure.

It's hard to suggest something other than what your builder had suggested, as I don't know how he set the engine up. Yes it is vital you maintain a ZDDP level of at bare minimum of 1300ppm, preferably higher. You can send a sample of your oil(s) to various outfits that will do an analysis, to know exactly what the levels are (or you can believe the oil companies' claims online- but I wouldn't).

What have I used that has worked? (I live in a pretty warm climate, summer day ambient temp are typically 90F-98F, and in winter, it's rarely cooler than 65F daytime)

Valvoline 20W50 4 Stroke motorcycle oil (I used to use a readily available ZDDP boost with it)
Valvoline VR1 20W50
Swepco 306 15W40
Brad Penn 20W50
Brad Penn 15W40
Liqui Moly 10W40 MOS2 "Antifriction"

What have I used that I felt didn't work?
Liqui Moly 10W60 "SL" grade (BMW M sport oil)
Shell 5W40 Rotella T6
Valvoline 15W40 diesel oil

Customers that track day air-cooled Porsche that I have talked to tend to run Brad Penn 20W50 or Total 20W50 or Total 10W60 Racing

Watch your rocker pads (where they contact lash caps) and pushrod ball-ends. If the engine doesn't like the oil you've chosen, it will show up in these spots, in a very short time.

Hope this helps

[modnrod]

What oil you need to run is more dependant on your bearing clearances and which oil pump you are using in combination.

My last 6500rpm little baby hotrod had 2.5thou clearances with a 26mm pump, so I ran SAE50 Pennzoil every 2000km worth of warm summers between the lights, and SAE30 Pennzoil in winter.

My last "big" engine was a mild 5500rpm 2180 streeter with 2.0thou and a 26mm pump, so I ran 10W30 in winter, then switched to 15W40 RX Super oil for summer (lots of highway cruising).

My newest engine is a very mild stock-ish 1584 with 1.5thou and a 21mm pump, and will be used for highway driving almost exclusively (I live in the sticks), and I intend to run 15W40 RX Super oil again. If I get too much oil pressure (like say 50lbs at 3300rpm), then I will change the oil to 10W30 Delo if necessary.

I like Redline best in all my air-cooled stuff but for me it costs $40 per litre.........

[richie]

Rich,

is there any sort of warrantee with it? Even though I don't agree with the spec the engine builder has told you I would go with what he recommends as what Modnrod/ Dave wrote is so true, only the builder knows how he set it up tolerance wise and he has to stand behind it if it goes wrong.
I strongly recommend the Millers line of oils for us in UK

cheers Richie

[Martin S.]

Good point about the bearing clearances with respect to oil grade. The other aspect is how you drive the car and if it's warmed up properly every time. I drive my car in a wide variety of temps and both short trip and highway drives. I like the oil to be able to circulate as well as possible even on a short trip to the store on a cold rainy day. The oil has to get thru all the coolers and filters, etc. I use 5W40 LiquiMoly (full synthetic) and have right from day one (after the 20 min. cam break in). The rings (incl. total seal) seated nicely, compression is good and valve adjustments have been minimal in the last 6 or 7 years it's been on the road. This summer I treated it to a shot of Ceratec which is LiquiMoly's additive which coats and reduces metal/metal friction. I figure it has to be better than zinc which is originally from the 1950's https://www.amazon.com/Liqui-Moly-20002-Friction-Modifier/dp/B001CZODH8

[Richierich56]

Rich,

is there any sort of warrantee with it? Even though I don't agree with the spec the engine builder has told you I would go with what he recommends as what Modnrod/ Dave wrote is so true, only the builder knows how he set it up tolerance wise and he has to stand behind it if it goes wrong.
I strongly recommend the Millers line of oils for us in UK

cheers Richie

Richie - there won't be a warranty no as it's technically a second hand motor.

[neil68]

In my street-strip 2332 cc, I mostly use LiquiMoly 5W40 synthetic or sometimes Joe Gibbs 5W40 DT synthetic (whichever is available locally).  I like the fact that the oil flows quickly and easily right from start-up.  I add Camshield when installing a new camshaft (experimented with 4-5 camshafts). After 59,000 km and 700+ trips down the drag strip, the main & rod bearings are still in good shape.  Have used 10W30 synthetic Joe Gibbs as well early on, and it has a good zinc level.

[nicolas]

this is such a 'difficult' and yet interesting subject. you'll end up with a lot of opinions. but there must be some guidlines and why not give these in this post?
for what i can contribute i have mostly used mineral oils (some semi synth) ranging from 20W50 and 15W40 and have looked at oil pressure as a 'measure' of what could work.
on my last engine (2007cc street engine) i have used Kroon 20W50 with good results as nor the bearings or bushes show wear and always had 1bar of pressure when the engine was hot idling at +/- 900 rpms. i have used duckhams 20w50, castrol mineral 20W50 and mobil1 15W40 with good results. all basic engines.

[Richierich56]

Thanks for all the replies fellas - really helpful stuff. I think i'm going to run a 10w40 semi-synth and put one of these 'one shot' Zinc additives in too.

[Martin S.]

After reading many opinions, it seems like you can run any oil you want and your VW will be fine. 

[andy198712]

may as well chuck in my 2p.

here's my thoughts.

lets say you run 10-40 oil, and have tight oil clearances, your oil pressure would be higher, then the same oil in the same engine but with larger oil clearances,

i spoke to my local oil place, Opie oils in the UK and the guy was very in the know about zinc levels (its not actually zinc but i can't spell he correct word  )

he said i could run the Millers classic oil but there competition oil has greater zinc levels in, and there nano has even greater if i recall right... (double check that last bit) but he said the comp oil would be fine. and said 10-50 would work well for me as its nice and thin when cold to get around well, and not so thick you get huge pressure spikes when cold.
and when up to temp the 50 part would hold its own well in an air-cooled engine.
http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-60235-millers-oils-cfs-10w-50-competition-full-synthetic-engine-oil.aspx

thats the oil i use.

with a pressure gauge you can see the difference in oil viscosity, i tried the 10-60 once and it raised my oil PSI by about 5-8psi at a given rpm. but i didn't need it.

also consider oil flow, more oil flowing through a bearing will cool it better so long as it provided the correct oil film....

just my thoughts.....

fully is generally less likely to break down compared to a semi oil when pushed temp wise. i personally wouldn't use semi in my engine in my beetle, but i would in my car ect....