Type 4 heads on a type 1?

[Prowagen]

I know very little about type 4 engines, but I presume that their heads are the same bolt pattern as type 1? So does/has anyone ran type 4 hears on a type 1 motor and if so are there any pros and cons?

Regards,
Rob.

[Bruce]

I presume that their heads are the same bolt pattern as type 1?

You presume wrong.  Head stud pattern is very different, and more importantly, the bore spacing is too.

[Prowagen]

Oh really wow! I Wouldn't have thought VW would have changed it that much! How far out is the bore spacing. So its the centre line on the bore thats different so no matter how big you go it will always be out!

[tikimadness]

jep

Michael

[Martin]

I know very little about type 4 engines, but I presume that their heads are the same bolt pattern as type 1? So does/has anyone ran type 4 hears on a type 1 motor and if so are there any pros and cons?

Regards,
Rob.

WHY?

[Prowagen]

I know very little about type 4 engines, but I presume that their heads are the same bolt pattern as type 1? So does/has anyone ran type 4 hears on a type 1 motor and if so are there any pros and cons?

Regards,
Rob.

WHY?

I don't know much about them because I have never seen many Type 4 motors or read much on type 4's

But I was wondering if they could be used on type 1's as they have bigger valves as standard.

[Martin]

there just horible, (my opinion) need so much work to make power, when you weigh up buying a pair of good quality T1 heads against all the work needed to make the T4 head breath.

the rest of the T4 motor is great, as mr fellows has made over 400 hp on the stock crank and rods (with updated fastners).. I know there are a few people out there getting great power from them, but the amount of work involved wieghed up aganst just buying a pair of ready made T1 heads.


sorry just not a T4 headed fan, after spending hours and hours welding and re-making the things to only get 300 hp out of them before they start to fail. (turbo).


Martin.

[Neil Davies]

You can actually buy a T1 style head from Pauter for the T4 block... T4 heads haven't got the best exhaust ports. One of the UK rail dragster used to have them.

[Prowagen]

I have been looking around on the net and have seen alot of negative things about the exhaust ports on the type 4 heads.

I have always wondered why type 4's are rarely used, I know the cost of them seems more than that of T1 stuff, but I imagine the head issues you mention Martin is a massive factor.

I suppore the development has gone into Type 1 stuff for years, afterall the type 1 must be 20 years older than type 4 stuff too.

[Roman]

Oh really wow! I Wouldn't have thought VW would have changed it that much! How far out is the bore spacing. So its the centre line on the bore thats different so no matter how big you go it will always be out!

The type1 has 112 mm and type 4 has 124.5 mm. 1/2" off!!!
Chevy smallblock is very close to a type1, 111.8 mm, just 0.2 mm off. No you cant fit them anyway, they are turned upside down! If you have the pushrod holes down like a VW head, the intake will be down and the exhaust up!

[benssp]

 isn't a bit like putting lipstick on a pig? To quote obama

[Roman]

I had some 600 hp chevy SB heads, a 4" bore VW engine and a case of beer. I had to try it!

[bugnut68]

It's my understanding that Type 4s make much more torque and are better in terms of overall durability.  Type 1s are cheaper in terms of parts, but let's face it, look at how many of the parts are made in China, etc.?  Type 4s definitely cost more as the market is smaller at this point, but people can't bitch about dropping valve seats anymore, as that issue has been fixed through better materials and processes.  Type 4s have their place, and I think the key thing to remember is that not all performance is defined by drag strip numbers.

I don't have a Type 4 in anything, and I won't for some time; hell, I can't afford more than a Engle 100'd 1776 right now!  But I would like to try one someday.  I've heard more good than bad in recent years about their positive attributes.

[Elnef]

You can actually buy a T1 style head from Pauter for the T4 block... T4 heads haven't got the best exhaust ports. One of the UK rail dragster used to have them.

I also use the Pauter head and it works fine and the price was good 


http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,3960.0.html

[Airspeed]

sorry just not a T4 headed fan, after spending hours and hours welding and re-making the things to only get 300 hp out of them before they start to fail. (turbo).


Martin.

Thats odd, as I got 220 hp @ only 6K rpm from them N/A and that was without any welding at all!
Now I just got 270 hp from a set of totally stock type 4 heads (stock valve sizes, no welding either, no porting either) on a stock 2.0 type 4 engine (only with bolt-on Pauter rockers) at just 14.5 psi. Yes, stock camm too.

They can be awesome, maybe your tuning was a tad off taht day Martin 

[Martin]

sorry just not a T4 headed fan, after spending hours and hours welding and re-making the things to only get 300 hp out of them before they start to fail. (turbo).


Martin.

Thats odd, as I got 220 hp @ only 6K rpm from them N/A and that was without any welding at all!
Now I just got 270 hp from a set of totally stock type 4 heads (stock valve sizes, no welding either, no porting either) on a stock 2.0 type 4 engine (only with bolt-on Pauter rockers) at just 14.5 psi. Yes, stock camm too.

They can be awesome, maybe your tuning was a tad off taht day Martin 

there were a lot of other factors on that motor. still dont like them  lol

[Rasser]

sorry just not a T4 headed fan, after spending hours and hours welding and re-making the things to only get 300 hp out of them before they start to fail. (turbo).


Martin.

Thats odd, as I got 220 hp @ only 6K rpm from them N/A and that was without any welding at all!
Now I just got 270 hp from a set of totally stock type 4 heads (stock valve sizes, no welding either, no porting either) on a stock 2.0 type 4 engine (only with bolt-on Pauter rockers) at just 14.5 psi. Yes, stock camm too.

They can be awesome, maybe your tuning was a tad off taht day Martin 

Stock cam and heads and 270hp sure is impressive!!!!   good work!

[SSRT]

What kind of heads is on this forums fastest NA all time top racer then? If its t-4 it cant be all that bad...

[Udo]

We made 10,6 passes on the Kemp-CSP car with welded original heads . I got the best results with original heads so far .

udo

[BeetleBug]

What kind of heads is on this forums fastest NA all time top racer then? If its t-4 it cant be all that bad...

T4 heads, welded and ported and YES - they work. Every time, time after time and year after year.

 

[Martin]

I take my hat off to all that make them work,  but I ultimately wanted to make more than 500 hp on pump gas and the experience I have had with the T4 heads kept telling me to leave them alone.

I have a customer who supercharges his T4 and was suffering the heads lifting, the cure for this I (we) came up with was to put little groves in the top of the barrel and bore the corresponding groves in the head so they interlocked with each other, this cured the problem and gave us a much larger surface area to seal against.

Ive got some pictures somplace to show how i did it, i'll dig them out.

This was also done to Russ Fellows’s Porsche heads on his T4 as they were lifting at a 1Bar boost, but with the grooving he was up to 1.5 Bar with no sign of lifting.

The above motors all had / have raceware head studs.

Thankfully I’m making more than 500 hp with combo I’ve gone with and now I’ll be looking for a lot more in the future.

Still don’t like the T4 head. 




Martin

[tikimadness]

Ive got some pictures somplace to show how i did it, i'll dig them out.

Still don’t like the T4 head. 

Martin

Please do cause I think I need all the options available to keep my typ 4 together on boost!

Michael

[ugly duckling]

i agree with martin. and i dont mean any disrespect with the type 4 guys. if the heads only had at least 200 thou more material under the jug serface then it would cure alot of problems. there are more early 70s type 4 heads that ended up in the melting pot than the late 60s and early 70s type1 dual ports. they were on the right track with the engine they just needed to fine tune a few spots. you work with what you have and try to improve on it. one thing i do love about the type 4 is there cly spacing. i have to say the type 4 is deffenetly spoiled in that deparment for sure . UD.

[Udo]

Ive got some pictures somplace to show how i did it, i'll dig them out.

Still don’t like the T4 head. 

Martin

Please do cause I think I need all the options available to keep my typ 4 together on boost!

Michael

For turbo use i would recommend Pauter heads , the Type4 heads are not strong enough .

Udo

[tikimadness]

Ive got some pictures somplace to show how i did it, i'll dig them out.

Still don’t like the T4 head. 

Martin

Please do cause I think I need all the options available to keep my typ 4 together on boost!

Michael

For turbo use i would recommend Pauter heads , the Type4 heads are not strong enough .

Udo

I know  ,I am going to use them on my new engine but I am going turbo on my old engine for now till I have the money for the new motor.

Michael

[Airspeed]

The above motors all had / have raceware head studs.

Martin

So the lifting was not due to the original head studs or heads then, but rather the Raceware studs?

I don't think they lift. I kinda found out they actually warp, especially with extreme bores, which all of these examples had.

Martin and UD: Just remember that all of your so-called 'type 1' are AFTERMARKET heads. Nothing VW type 1 about them. CB's Eliminator, 044, Bugpack Angle-flow, everything you use or speak of is aftermarket.
Your comparing a 30 year old original OEM production VW casting to a brand new aftermarket (solid) headcasting, most of which are marginal at best for street use, let alone high speed Autobahn use.

Making a groove in the barrels is actually exactly what porsche was doing forever with their aircooled cylinders and heads. Nothing new and a way to overcome the weakness that usually is connected to good street cooling as cooling needs spaces and voids and passages through the heads, non of which any of the aftermarket 'type 1' heads seem to posses...
FYI, track 911's from (semi) factory teams also have their heads welded up to prevent warping...

But, for 402m 'driving', yeah, I can understand you'd be better of with a more or less solid casting.

It takes a little more effort though to make 300+ hp and also be able to use it on the track/circuit. That takes cooling and that means voids and passages in heads, which leads to a weaker head, so you have to be even more inventive or whatever to keep such an engine in one piece   Therefore I have great respect for Russ who pulled that off with aircooling. Pity he went part watercooled now.
But make no mistake, any underhead cammed 4 banger that makes over 400 hp has my deepest repect, even if it does only make it 400 yards at a time .

[ugly duckling]

hey air speed how are ya . if you look at my post a bit closer you will see that i was reffering to the type 1 OEM dual ports from 40YEARS ago. and were qwit a bit stronger in the jug thikness department than its big brother T4. you and i both know that there isent a tunel EX PORTS undermining the barrel serface on our type 1 heads. i know of numeros OEM 40 year old type 1 HIPO heads still going strong to this day. i cant say that about the early T4. and BTW i work alot with the OEM stuff that is my bread and butter. and BTW the angle flows are more streetable than what you think. at least on a early type one you can get a few serfaces (flycut) out of them before there dead can you do that with a T4. i think not. again no disrespect what so ever to the T4 people.just giving my two bits on the early T4 head in genral. i just wish VW would have offerd a T4 beetle with a up right cooling than it would have been more natural. instead of a basterdration that it is. then  i would have alot more respect for the engine. my two bits. UD.     

[Udo]

Hi Airspeed

For street use i only take original Type1 heads  because of the better cooling . They are the only ones that have enough space to let the air go through the head . I am just building an 88x78,4 braket engine for my own car . For this i took a set of old 311 castings . This are the best heads VW has manufactured !!

Udo

[Airspeed]

All very true UD! unfortunately I almost need to say. Its a challenge sometimes for sure, but we all choose our poison, don't we 

[Udo]

There are a lot of very bad 040 heads on the market . I sometimes get some for boring or valvejob , but i never would use them . The original engines are running very hot and some people put such bad heads on a high performance engine only to make it cheap . Don't want to see what happend then ,

Udo