what's the trick rear whl cylinder to run on Type 1?

[Jim Ratto]

I think Mark Herbert said he ran Super Bug front cylinders on his car(in the rear). Or was it front Std Bug?
I remember he said he ran 113609537C 4-lug rear shoes too (wider).
anybody remember?

thanks

[Neil Davies]

On my race car I ran front cylinders in the rear and rear ones in the front - all just standard parts as far as I remember!

[Jim Ratto]

On my race car I ran front cylinders in the rear and rear ones in the front - all just standard parts as far as I remember!

Thanks Neil 

[DKK Ted]

Hey Jim I think I was told that the front Super Bettle is the same as the rear Type III, or vise versa.

[Lee.C]

On my race car I ran front cylinders in the rear and rear ones in the front - all just standard parts as far as I remember!

Thats what I did in the Manx to help brake balance

[fast68]

I run cb wide five front brake with wilwood calipers to clears my zero ofset ERCO's and on the rear i run 1300 front wheel cylinders. Work great no locking up my 135's  even under heavy braking!

[PIMPPRIDE]

311611067C - type 3 22.2mm rear wheel cylinder is also a super beetle front 1971-1977

Anthony / ISP WEST

[Bruce]

Jim, your memory is correct.  You can use front SB wheel in the rear.  Here's some trivia:

as much as I hate the American units of measure, wheel cylinders are measured in inches.

68+up rear:  11/16" diameter
68+up front: 7/8"  diameter
SB front:  15/16" diameter

Just swapping the wheel cylinders to larger ones up front on a stock Beetle is a big mistake.  It will upset the brake balance.  However, the typical Cal-Look car running bicycle tires on the front, and truck tires out back, throws the stock brake balance out the door.  To combat the huge flywheel effect of large rear tires, and the longer lever arm of that same tire, you really need to increase the rear braking power of a Cal-Look car. 

Using the larger SB front cylinders is the minimum you should do. 

Better is to put wider 68+up rear shoes.  67+down shoes are 30mm wide, 68+up are 40mm.  If you look at your 67 drums now, you will see a lip nearest the backing plate where the shoe doesn't touch.  It's about 5mm wide.  Also, if you turn your drums and go into the drum 1-2mm deeper, you'll make enough room to use the wider 68+up shoes.  Conversely you can narrow the shoes a couple of mm on the outboard side to make them fit.  There's one thing I don't know for sure, and that's the backing plates.  Do you need to use 68 and later backing plates? (I think so)  Lanny knows for sure.

Better than all this is to install Type 3 rear brakes.  The shoes are 18mm bigger in diameter, and 5mm wider than late Beetle brakes.

[Rennsurfer]

Excellent post, Bruce. I've been wanting to upgrade my standard 1967 Type 1 brakes. Thank you very much for that informative text.

[181]

I run front Superbeetle cylinders in my rear type III drums and Ghia discs in the front. My tire combo is 145/65 in the front and 185/65 in the rear and the front/rear balance is fine.

[RMS Boxer Service]

I have a 1985 Mexico beetle as a dailydriver and I have upgraded my rear wheel brakes with 19 mm wheel cylinders from a Porsche 924. All type 1's after 68 use 17 mm rear wheel brake cylinders. The pre 69 19 mm wheel cylinders don't have the right ofset to fit the brake shoes used from 68 and on. The Porsche rear wheel cylinder is a bolt on and works great together with stock disc brakes up front

/Rolf, DK

[simon uk]

this is kinda related, I am just putting together a set of 356B rear brakes, and whilst I have bought all the springs and service parts new, I have been quoted a rediculous price for 2 star adjusters (I already have 2 which I have recommissioned). Does anyone know for sure whether there are any vw ones which are the same size and fit?

Cheers, Simon.

[Bruce]

Simon, contact user nivag.  He lost one and found a replacement for the cost of a couple of pints.

[Jim Ratto]

I have a 1985 Mexico beetle as a dailydriver and I have upgraded my rear wheel brakes with 19 mm wheel cylinders from a Porsche 924. All type 1's after 68 use 17 mm rear wheel brake cylinders. The pre 69 19 mm wheel cylinders don't have the right ofset to fit the brake shoes used from 68 and on. The Porsche rear wheel cylinder is a bolt on and works great together with stock disc brakes up front

/Rolf, DK

924, eh? Interesting. They are 924 only application. Pricey little buggers too. 924 uses 113609537C shoes, just like '68> Beetle. But drums are unique to 924.
Time to round up some cylinders, shoes, hold down pins, springs.... and brake cleaner.
Type 3 rear brakes... are they non existent now? (5 x 205mm).

Thanks for all the experiences and info. You guys are the best.

[Donny B.]

this is kinda related, I am just putting together a set of 356B rear brakes, and whilst I have bought all the springs and service parts new, I have been quoted a rediculous price for 2 star adjusters (I already have 2 which I have recommissioned). Does anyone know for sure whether there are any vw ones which are the same size and fit?

Cheers, Simon.

I usually get my parts from Stoddard here in the US.  Here's the link:

http://www.stoddard.com/shop/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=87&cat=Drum+Brake+System-356%2C+356A%2C+356B

[JS]

Jim, I think the only part of 5x205 type 3 rear brakes not being reproduced is the backing plates.

[Zach Gomulka]

Excellent post, Bruce. I've been wanting to upgrade my standard 1967 Type 1 brakes. Thank you very much for that informative text.

After a T3 rear brake swap you may not be a huge fan of your wide axles anymore...

Great post though. I like juggling around stock parts to get the most out of things

[Jim Ratto]

good source for velvet-touch VW shoes?

[Felix/DFL]

You can slide the 5x205 typ-3 drums over the common typ-3 4x130 backing plates (65-) !
Done on some Split IRS conversions.Works great!

Beware of just swaping back cylinders. For some time I converted the orig. 68- bug brakes to typ-3 cyl. and had BIG problems to get good brake preasure. After swaping "some" parts and thinking and thinking, I noticed that the position of the vent and the line fitting were interchanged on the typ-3 one`s. So the vents were on the underside...
I had to remove them and turn them around to get the air out.

[Bendik]

Type 3 rear brakes... are they non existent now? (5 x 205mm).

I bought a complete 5/205 Type 3 rear set up from T3 detectives in the UK. They also machined the drum.

[kev d]

Type 3 rear brakes... are they non existent now? (5 x 205mm).

I bought a complete 5/205 Type 3 rear set up from T3 detectives in the UK. They also machined the drum.
/quote]

Me too, new wide 5 drums only, don`t think he had many left in stock though.
Cheers,
Kev

[benssp]

there's plenty of drums available

[lawrence]

On a side note. I bought some later front wheel cylinders(dont remember what size) when I rebuilt my '58> brake system a few years ago, but I could not use them because the bolt 180 degrees from the required spot.