The Look and Fit of old skool headers

[Lee.C]

This is something I have been thinking about for AGES and its ones of those small but VERY important detail (to me anyhow) that will help to bring together the overall "Look" I am trying to get with PROJECT 66 

Basiclly its where the flange for the muffler/silencer sits in relation to the body work - I have been scanning LOADS of old pic's and if you take a these below you will see that on most 70's era car the Flange sits BEHIND the rear valance - now I think this looks much cleaner and will give PROJECT 66 that proper 70's look 

So what your thoughts guys  Who made these type of headers  Does ANYONE do them these days 

[marc1951]

Well, my friend, I know one the cars you pictured has a Four Tuned (Gene Berg) header and another has S&S headers.
All the cars have a non-merged collectors and therefore fit behind the apron.
Here are a couple of pictures showing the differences between merged and non merged collectors..........higher performance or cleaner look?

That's why I'm liking the the A1 sidewinder, merged and clean look, with the collector (3rd picture)

Marc
DRA

[kingsburgphil]

Very well explained Marc! The transition of a race part to the street scene can be somewhat profound, example. In 74' I paid $175 for a set of merged 1 5/8 headers by Chas Morse...very racy. Within a year S&S headers had a similar system on the market...half the price, no waiting.
Oh well.

[Diederick/DVK]

i was about to say that too, they ran non-merged headers. but if you'd look at dave rhoads '64, chop top etc. those headers look more like the ones made today.

[roland]

And then there's the question: Do you fit a non-merged header and have less perf, with a "proper 70's look" or do you care about your engine and will fit a decent merged header?

[vwcab]

And then there's the question: Do you fit a non-merged header and have less perf, with a "proper 70's look" or do you care about your engine and will fit a decent merged header?

Decisions,decisions,but I think it's up to you Lee,because it's your car.But I agree,it's not easy.

[Peter]

And then there's the question: Do you fit a non-merged header and have less perf, with a "proper 70's look" or do you care about your engine and will fit a decent merged header?

the price to pay to be "period correct"

[Lee.C]

Well, my friend, I know one the cars you pictured has a Four Tuned (Gene Berg) header and another has S&S headers.
All the cars have a non-merged collectors and therefore fit behind the apron.
Here are a couple of pictures showing the differences between merged and non merged collectors..........higher performance or cleaner look?

That's why I'm liking the the A1 sidewinder, merged and clean look, with the collector (3rd picture)

Marc
DRA

Thanks Buddy - Very well explained, I can't believe i didn't work that one out 

So I guess the next question is - Just how much difference will a NON merged header actually make   

[Tobi/DFL]

Hi Lee,

that is a very good topic! I don´t like the way modern exhaust systems are exposed behind the car so I alway modify my headers for a good fit of the muffler.
After a little searchins in the internet I found this header which is 1 5/8" in diameter but isn´t merged or of the sidewinder type:

http://www.vwspeedshop.com/product.php?productid=16240&cat=371&page=1

This could be the ideal base for a custom made header/muffler combination, don´t you think? Maybe some engines produce more power with merged headers but if it´s just a marginal plus I would rather use an non-merged header if you don´t need a header with bigger tubing.
Bye,

Tobi

[Lee.C]

Just had a thought - as far as I can make out this is a merged header BUT it looks very "shallow" ie not too far from the motor - Like a NON mereged  

[Lee.C]

Hi Lee,

that is a very good topic! I don´t like the way modern exhaust systems are exposed behind the car so I alway modify my headers for a good fit of the muffler.
After a little searchins in the internet I found this header which is 1 5/8" in diameter but isn´t merged or of the sidewinder type:

http://www.vwspeedshop.com/product.php?productid=16240&cat=371&page=1

This could be the ideal base for a custom made header/muffler combination, don´t you think? Maybe some engines produce more power with merged headers but if it´s just a marginal plus I would rather use an non-merged header if you don´t need a header with bigger tubing.
Bye,

Tobi

I thought this one might get some interest  anyway that speedshop one looks pretty cool BUT I have also been think for a while about having one Custom made 

I have watched alot of those "build a race car" and "My kit car" programms and there are a number of places in the uk that will basiclly build you ANY custom exhaust/header you want in ANY material with all the correct sizes/lengths etc - Now this might be a more expensive route but at least I can get what I want 

I was also wonder if anyone knew the maths behind working out the best diameter/primary length etc  I know this is getting very technical but if I am going to do it then I might as well do it properly 

[Neil Davies]

Lee, have a word with Rich Thomas at Turbothomas - he can make whatever exhaust you want. His jig is the back half of a beetle, with valance still in place, and a mocked up engine to make sure everything fits.

[Lee.C]

Lee, have a word with Rich Thomas at Turbothomas - he can make whatever exhaust you want. His jig is the back half of a beetle, with valance still in place, and a mocked up engine to make sure everything fits.

I
Sounds very interesting dude and sounds like he does a proper job BUT if i was to go to all this effort I would want it made on MY block/case in MY car if you get what I mean

[Neil Davies]

That's cool, he's got space in his unit to do just that - I spent a couple of days there a few years back when he was building the turbo pipework for Andy Kelly's Speedster.

[Jeff68]

I have a 1 5/8 merged Berg 933S header on my 68 beetle and the collector is behind the valence. You can see the collector from behind the car though as the lower half of the collector flange is below the bottom edge of the valence.  If the collector was any higher I don't think you could bolt a muffler to it.

[Lee.C]

I have a 1 5/8 merged Berg 933S header on my 68 beetle and the collector is behind the valence. You can see the collector from behind the car though as the lower half of the collector flange is below the bottom edge of the valence.  If the collector was any higher I don't think you could bolt a muffler to it.

Hmm very interesting - is this an old or new header (ie what year?) 

[richie]

I was also wonder if anyone knew the maths behind working out the best diameter/primary length etc  I know this is getting very technical but if I am going to do it then I might as well do it properly 

Lee it is not possible,
you can work out a basic size and primary tube length bu only hours on a dyno will show you exactly what works on your engine,you need to look out for an older design merge,4tuned and S&S made what you are looking for in merged design[i personally dont like the S&S version as the colector area is quite different and prone to pulling off the tubes],Bergs also sold them,at least if you find one it will give you something to work with/from.Just for reference a good collector goes for $800/1000 here so figure your perfect system could cost $2000 plus then factor in the cost in pounds paying someone in the UK to do it and you have alot of money invested

cheers richie,uk

 

[Fastbrit]

FORM FOLLOWS FUNCTION!

[Lee.C]

I was also wonder if anyone knew the maths behind working out the best diameter/primary length etc  I know this is getting very technical but if I am going to do it then I might as well do it properly 

Lee it is not possible,
you can work out a basic size and primary tube length bu only hours on a dyno will show you exactly what works on your engine,you need to look out for an older design merge,4tuned and S&S made what you are looking for in merged design[i personally dont like the S&S version as the colector area is quite different and prone to pulling off the tubes],Bergs also sold them,at least if you find one it will give you something to work with/from.Just for reference a good collector goes for $800/1000 here so figure your perfect system could cost $2000 plus then factor in the cost in pounds paying someone in the UK to do it and you have alot of money invested

cheers richie,uk
 

I see what you mean dude - I just remember hearing there was a equation involving bore/stroke/valve sive/etc but I guess nothing can make up for hours on the dyno

And yes I would LOVE an original 4tuned or S&S header - but just to check are you saying THESE go for $800-1000??? Got any leads???

And again yes I would have alot of money invested but hey its only money 

[nicolas]

And then there's the question: Do you fit a non-merged header and have less perf, with a "proper 70's look" or do you care about your engine and will fit a decent merged header?

the question is somewhat answered in the posts above this one, but just remember: Lee builds and engine with and S-P-G crank




 

i just read the article in the Bill Fisher book and there it states that an area that needs to be addressed in the future will no doubt be the collector. now being decades later i think it has been done and the merged header works better. that being said, Tobi is on to something and i just wanted to post an interesting experience i had as well in another post about the whole subject. 

[roland]

FORM FOLLOWS FUNCTION!

thank you!

[Lee.C]

FORM FOLLOWS FUNCTION!

thank you!

ok guys I get the hint  also most cars with Dual QPs had MERGED headers 

I do already have an original late 70's thunderbirds  header & Dual QP's but I haven't yet seen them  (Mr Keene still has them )

[richie]

No,what I was saying is that a good collector cost $800/1000 now and thats just the start of what you would need to do it properly,but as Nicolas pointed out you arent as you put a door stop in it already

cheers richie,uk

[Lee.C]

No,what I was saying is that a good collector cost $800/1000 now and thats just the start of what you would need to do it properly,but as Nicolas pointed out you arent as you put a door stop in it already

cheers richie,uk

Oh ok I get ya - I think I am just gonna not worry on the "where the flange sits" things, I will wait and see what the thunderbird one looks like and then decide.

My friend Rob had one made by Gary H and its awesome looking bit of kit  I might just get him to make me one of them - Form follows function

[PIMPPRIDE]

I have an old 1-5/8" type 1 merged 4 tune header without j-tubes if anyone is interested, its $100

Anthony / ISP WEST

[bugnut68]

I have an old 1-5/8" type 1 merged 4 tune header without j-tubes if anyone is interested, its $100

Anthony / ISP WEST

How difficult would it be to obtain proper j-tubes for such a system?

[Lee.C]

I have an old 1-5/8" type 1 merged 4 tune header without j-tubes if anyone is interested, its $100

Anthony / ISP WEST

I have an old 1-5/8" type 1 merged 4 tune header without j-tubes if anyone is interested, its $100

Anthony / ISP WEST

How difficult would it be to obtain proper j-tubes for such a system?

Thread jackin guys 

let get back to the look and fit of oldskool headers 

[DOUG BERG]

                       ACTULLY THE "CHAS HEADER" IS WHERE YOU WANNA LOOK,,, 
                       THE ONE (PHIL "THE GRUNTCAKES"  LEADLEY) IS TALK'N 'BOUT....   
                                            CHAS BUILT DARRELLS FIAT!!!       
               WE HAVE A CHAS 1 3/4 PORCELIN COAT'D AROUND HERE SOMEWHERE!!!!
                                            ONE VERY TALENT'D PERSON!!!               
                      JOHN RUE OF PHOENIX HEADERS,,,   HIS SON IS NAMED CHAS!!!!
                                                                                                                            DOUG....

[Shubee2 (DSK)]

Didn't Jon Rue also Work or Own 4 Tuned Doug??

[TiDi]

on mine I used a non merged like this one



with an original ansa muffler.