a 88x74 project that needs opinions hehe

[RFbuilt]

ok hmm here's the plan (maybe Jim might find this odd yet interesting.. lol i hope)

an odd ball of an engine

88mm machine in  p/c
74mm stroke crankshaft
rods - yet to figure out if i should have the stockers rebuilt or get some cb unitech's or rebuilt rods from brothers or chico
sumthing decently priced would be great

35.5x32  SP head (to be ported and a good valvejob)
single HD springs and chromo retainers

chromo pushrods 

Engle w-110  cam
bugpack racing lifters (if i could get away with brazilians  i would.. but i may not risk that )

ICT sp manifold (gona be modded to work with kadrons)  will take pics once the fabbing goes underway
should give a good taper from the carb base down to the port entry..
myt work well (atleast in my head)

Kadron 40s , prepped and set by Art Thraen  of ACE

already have an extractor type header (non merge)

but would like to try a 1 1/2 merged header or maybe 1 5/8 (dunno.. was under the impression the bigger one myt help top end) since sp heads provide good torque and grunt

+ all the bits and pieces, like full flow cover, plugged oil pump n blueprinted, etc 

- was wondering are the single HD's ok ? or would duals be better in the long run..
- compression was thinking 8.1:1  static   (maybe sum seasoned brothers could shed a comment on this)
- have forgotten a few details, will add more as i remember   
- all opinions and suggestions are gona be very much welcome,
- not really gona race in Prostock  so.. top power isnt much of a concern.. just sumthing fun and different
  plus living at sea level but with nearby hills.. low end grunt and torque should be fun on a daily

fire away guys


ps- if this is the wrong section/forum  hope the mods could put it in the right place

thanks..

[RFbuilt]

oh and its going into this white turd 




maybe then i could rightfully go to 195/55/15 fronts and 215/65/15 rears

currently its on 195/60/15s on all 4s

plus id have an excuse to change the pea shooters

current engine is a 1500cc sp

[Udo]

Hi
I think you can go with a bigger cam.

Udo

[Bewitched666]

I agree with Udo,

cousin of mine is building a 78x85.5 engine with stock ported heads and 40mm webers.
Cam is a w120.

Depends how it runs he might switch to bigger valve heads

[Diederick/DVK]

perhaps a webcam 218 or 163?
if it were dual port, jim ratto described a nice 14 second car with a webcam 110 cam and 40IDFs. do a search on SODA or S.O.D.A. can't remember.

[RMS Boxer Service]

Why ruin such a fine engine with single port heads??  Give it a set of dual port heads and you will be HAPPY

Just my two cents.


/Rolf

[Neil Davies]

Agree with all the others, a set of stock dual port heads will be better than a set of ported single ports, so if you are having headwork done, you may as well go for some dual port heads.

[richie]

More compression,and why not use kadron sp manifolds?

cheers richie,uk

[RFbuilt]

wow thanks for the replies (loving it!)

first of

thank you Udo for the first reply..
to answer to your suggestion / opinion  on running a bigger cam (sure who doesnt want that?)
- i was trying to avoid the typical, super cammed, high strung untested aproach though if you guys have suggestions im really open to it ,  at first i was opting for the mild stuff, simply for the reason of running Kadron 40s and SP heads

thanks for the opinions and suggestions very much apriciated


Ralf,

[RFbuilt]

double checked the posts, and my main worry is.. IF i had 40idf's or even 44idf's most def i would have gone to an engle 120 atleast or web110 , but my worry right now is more on the fact that i am using Kadron40s 
is a bigger advertized duration then 284* ok with 1bbl duals?  would like to try avoiding the ports canibalizing each other's air/fuel source

about the singleport heads, i do agree on the capabilities of the dp head, even in stock form.. no doubt
i do however have the singleport heads handy right now.. actually 2 sets , and no dp heads

the porting part,  (i port cylinderheads, but not vw) not saying i know what im doing, but i think id follow the how to HR vw book
and clean the ports up and perform a good valvejob to it..  which wont really cost me anything  (finding a set of dp could be really hard here too) 

anything else we can throw in the mix.. and consider or talk about?

im really not trying to race this thing, just sumthing good for daily, 
i or we could always build sumthing funner after this engine, that i am sure of 

-udo
-deed, 67-indeed/dvk
-bewitched
-callook_67 / rolf
-neil davies
-richie,uk

thanks for the replies guys  very very much apriciate it

Ralf,

[RFbuilt]

about the ict manifold 

i tried looking for sumthing in SP form for the kadron's and most are either pricey or just busted up steel units
(not that im complaining with the price, as rare as that is.. every seller would se fit to price it accordingly)


so the ICT manifold was cheap and easily obtainable
+ our fabricator could do the adapters for free to me LOL 

would just be a simple procedure
cut a 8mm thick alu flange  to match the ICT manifold's opening/entry (carb base)
weld up an alu tubing of apropriate ID and OD  (maybe 1.5-2inch tall)  and weld on top of it.. a 8mm thick flange that matches the kadron base

should prolly put it at the same total height (kadrons) when using the EMpi manifolds for dp hehehe

Ralf,

[Jim Ratto]

I would switch to dual port heads, you will get the best of all worlds and go more aggressive on valve timing and lift. I think the big merged header on those single port heads is going to make them over scavenge. You need a balance.
If you go 35 x 32 dual port and do a simple "garage clean up" on the intake and exh ports, send them out for a nice valve job, and still run your Kadrons, with Engle 120 or Web Cam 110, my thoughts would be to use 1-1/2" header. use stock VW rods but have them clearanced for 74mm stroke. I used bone stock VW rods in the 74 stroke on my stand but had to clearance notches in roof of the case to clear. Not a big deal, but I think clearanced rods are prettier (little bit lighter too) than a case with grooves ground in the roof... but it's what we had. If you go 120 Engle or Web 110 I would use the Bugpack 4046 springs, put a .030 shim under them.
If you stay single port just realize that you can't go too wild on valve timing or you'll have a lot in intake reversion and the carbs won't know if they're bolted on right side up or not.
have fun

[Udo]

wow thanks for the replies (loving it!)

first of

thank you Udo for the first reply..
to answer to your suggestion / opinion  on running a bigger cam (sure who doesnt want that?)
- i was trying to avoid the typical, super cammed, high strung untested aproach though if you guys have suggestions im really open to it ,  at first i was opting for the mild stuff, simply for the reason of running Kadron 40s and SP heads

thanks for the opinions and suggestions very much apriciated

I did not see the sp on your post . Dual port heads will give you much more power  and if you take some new 043 they are easy to port and polish . You can sell the 2 sets of sp heads.
Kadron's are ok ...

Udo

[richie]

I cant remember on the sp version,but on the dual port kadron manifold it has almost a small plenum to help with each cylinder pulling from 1 carb to balance things out,not sure if the ict manifolds do?

cheers richie,uk

[RFbuilt]

thanks mr brownshorts jim (or is that sum1 elses shorts LOL)


thoroughly understood your point Jim, as i still hold close the pm's we exchanged at around exactly 1 year ago LOL reg'ding the engle 120 and or web110

man... and i just finished cleaning up the 2 sets of sp heads here, so theyre ,well easy to hold and not get ur hands dirty..

Udo  noted of that  thanks!

i might give that a shot.. but maybe not for now

does everyone think the engle w110 is fine for SP heads + kadrons @ 8.1:1 comp ? (95-96oct. pump is available)  

looks like the DP head would be a nice step up , to when we get to the point that the above engine, needs freshen up, maybe after one year of daily use,  pull the engine , crack open case, replace bearings, cam  , change head studs, and assemble as DP

how's that sound?  



thanks Jim and Udo!   nice to see awesome minds share their thought

and in that thought, Jim u could sell me bits n pieces of that engine on the stand.. more reason to keep it in the stand

HAHAHAHAHA kidding man!

Ralf,

[RFbuilt]

I cant remember on the sp version,but on the dual port kadron manifold it has almost a small plenum to help with each cylinder pulling from 1 carb to balance things out,not sure if the ict manifolds do?

cheers richie,uk

you're right Richie,   looking at the EMPI manifolds i have right now here,  theres  roughly half inch of single dia. space right below the carb base flange, bfor it splits into 2 (with divider)  asuming the BP units have this same thing.. 


but i was thinking, for SP's  wouldnt that be just a bigger albeit huge'r LOL plenum since the divider is in the ports of the sp head itself? 

always was curious to why this was how it was, looking at the speedwell sprint kits, the single runner length is long for some odd reason 
although one reason could be the carbs on those are kinda "side draft" so it has to bend to accomodate..

curious to how kadrons (the sp manifolds ive seen in pics) are also longer, than their dp counterpart

another reason i wanna try the sp aproach, not to prove sumthing or to try outrun dp's  but more so to learn sumthing..

prolly learn that im hard headed i know hahahaha


Ralf,

[Jim Ratto]

thanks mr brownshorts jim (or is that sum1 elses shorts LOL)


thoroughly understood your point Jim, as i still hold close the pm's we exchanged at around exactly 1 year ago LOL reg'ding the engle 120 and or web110

man... and i just finished cleaning up the 2 sets of sp heads here, so theyre ,well easy to hold and not get ur hands dirty..

Udo  noted of that  thanks!

i might give that a shot.. but maybe not for now

does everyone think the engle w110 is fine for SP heads + kadrons @ 8.1:1 comp ? (95-96oct. pump is available)  

looks like the DP head would be a nice step up , to when we get to the point that the above engine, needs freshen up, maybe after one year of daily use,  pull the engine , crack open case, replace bearings, cam  , change head studs, and assemble as DP

how's that sound?  



thanks Jim and Udo!   nice to see awesome minds share their thought

and in that thought, Jim u could sell me bits n pieces of that engine on the stand.. more reason to keep it in the stand

HAHAHAHAHA kidding man!

It was time to stop picking on my buddy Carlos... he gets enough grief from the rest of DKP (not to mention Fullerton PD)... so I changed my avatar.

Anyway, RF why not just build the motor with dp heads the first time out? the time and money spent on updating it later and opening up bottom end later and swapping things... I would get the bucks saved up to find some VW dual ports (not Huber aftermarket), 043's like Udo said (I ported a nice set of 043's 40 x 35 over this past year, nothing radical.. 35mm intake port, nice blend into valve pocket), and use the Web 110 from the get go. Single port heads are becoming harder to find, so maybe you can get some good dough for those...
The motor I am spending my life on for Sheep... I would never suggest anybody else do what he is doing. But, like most things he does, it will work for him and only him.

[RFbuilt]

hahaha sorry man.. wasnt picking on the shorts really..  i have that same kind of shorts thats why
(wait thats for another thread)



sigh...    now its gona be weird.. looking for a set of DP heads 

the other one ... send me sumthing DP  half way across the world  will ya LOL! kidding



ok will have to reevaluate things,  and monetary issues too.. 

prob is i do have the engle w100 ,w110 and w120  handy right now

being that il also be rebuilding the other beetle's engine the brazilian 1979 (currently 1300cc late model) upgrading it to turn to a stock 1585dp motor  with whatever cam i do not use (most likely it will get the w100) 

things il be ordering soon are
lifters (bugpacks as per Theotherone)
pushrods
springs and ret.


Ralf,

[Jim Ratto]

wish I had some good dual ports sitting around, I'd sell you some cheap... years ago I had them stacked up like towers. I was using them as wheel chocks to hold cars in the driveway. 

Good luck

[RFbuilt]

hahaha wow!!!     well... i will try my best to source some DP heads here

good thing is.. aftermarket heads are quite uncommon here, so most def if im in luck.. id find some 040 or factory dp's

[RFbuilt]

i might opt for

CBperformance's Unitech rods (not the hd plus)  being that they should be clearanced for strokers

(dont mind doing grinding though)

cuz i cant realy drive around so-cal sourcing out good rebuild stroker clearanced factory rods


unless someone has a good source for em' ?

thanks hehe

[Torben Alstrup]

Hello.
I never was much of a fan of the W110 cam, except for the power that it can give. But in this case I would say that it most likely would be about the best off the shelf cam choice you could make, followed up by a Web 218/119 retarded 2 degrees for better vacum at idle.
The single ports will "limit" upper end performance and rpm, so HD single springs will be enough. I would suggest CB lightweight lifters over Bugpack, for the weight alone.
A 1½" header is more than sufficient. Most likely a 1 3/8" will do the job too. It´s not so much the exh. that needs help, but the intake.
I would raise the CR to 9 - 1. 8-1  just makes for a lazy engine.

I know what is and has been said about sgl port heads, - and do also agree, to some extend. For milder engines where people look more for good overall torque you can get quite some way with sgl. ports, without ever being able to reach a good ported DP head of course.

Right now I´m playing a little with a 1600 sgl. port with a VERY mild cam, ported heads and Kads. It was relatively easy to get the first 70 hp out of it. But it does not want to bleed much torque above 4500 rpm. which means that top speed is also at 4500 rpm. But power from idle to just over 4000 is good. I´m going to make a couple of small changes to see if I can extend the torque another 300 rpm or so.
T

[Jim Ratto]

perhaps a webcam 218 or 163?
if it were dual port, jim ratto described a nice 14 second car with a webcam 110 cam and 40IDFs. do a search on SODA or S.O.D.A. can't remember.

that was a 88 x 69 with Roger Crawford 35 x 32 heads, Web 110, 8.5:1, 40IDF Webers w/ 32mm vents, 1-1/2 merged header in Bryan's '65 stock Bug

[RFbuilt]

Torben thank you for your input..

i see some one else.. had the same thing in mind as i had.. when i started the thread



the other one -   thats one cool motor!!!

[RFbuilt]

jim will apriciate this



- just got a pair of dual port heads off a 1302 ,  cost is equivalent to 150$ pair


looks like sumthings working out right LOL

[RFbuilt]

another thing is..

i cant seem to find this 4046 BP dual springs online.. wonder where i can source them

so naturally the choices ive found wer

CB dual springs and CB chromo ret.

or DRD/darrens  high rev spring kit, duals and retainers


still unsure on cam choice as id like this to last atleast a year or so not necesarily 2yrs lol
daily driven (everyday) and traffic stop n go..

dunno what others experience with w120  on that kind of use..
would like to hear them though...

thanks guys

[Diederick/DVK]

4046 springs are $59.99 at VWParts.net
good luck, sounds like it's gonna be a champ... especially if you follow the specs of the engine of Jim's buddy.

[RFbuilt]

hey thanks died!!

i kept finding the 4047 ones.. didnt know if there was a diff except for the +1 digit LOL


now the next worry..

engle w120  for daily and stop n go traffic..

and i mean traffic like 1-2 hours to get to the next 50km LOL

[Diederick/DVK]

web 110 if you follow the recipe 

[RFbuilt]

i could and would follow the recipe if it was gona be a 1/4 mile car
 no offense to anyone and ofcourse not to sound like im not taking in opinions..

i do have the 3 engle grinds already.. ordering from the u.s. is costly ,

and curiously id like to know from the other one/jim how hard or not hard are the web110 on the valvetrain , lifter bores etc

this beetle/engine wont be raced, purely street and sole daily driver


thank you died for the sharings,   (you could share ur beetle il take it anyday hahahahahaha kidding)