Rancho Pro-Street gearbox

[nicolas]

it rained more then half a day on saturday at SCC this year. 

And that's our only excuse for such a poor number... 

 

[henk]

hallo,

so wich parts are used then from a stock gearbox?
if i buy a empty rancho core and build a stock gearbox over in it an add HD sidecovers and a super diff.
do i have then a good gearbox,or do i see this to simpel?
and is this a waste of money and should i better buy a complete rancho?

henk!!!

hallo,

nobody,that can give me an answer to this?

henk!!!

[Diederick/DVK]

i cannot fully answer your question henk, but if you decide to do so there are other parts to take into account:
- the stronger 9 thooth 3.78 1st gear, obviously.
- differing strength between the 3.88, 4.12 and 4.37 r&p, something i didn't know. apparently 3.88 is strongest and 4.37 weakest.
- keyed or splined gears. later gears and early gears are not easily interchangeable unless you machine the later mainshaft. turned it down and insert a woodruff key.
- woodruff keys need to be hardened.
- 3rd and 4th gear should be welded to their synchros.
- then you would want a later shift fork as it's stronger.
- pref. heavy duty SAW axles.
- a gusseted case is stronger, too.
- and a latin american rhino case is strongest. rhino, that even sounds strong

i can't vouch for all of these bullets points to be 100% correct, but i've been thinking the same thing as you have. i think uncle keith wrote some good points in his performance handbook under fast road and all out street. take a look if you have that book.

[Rasser]

i cannot fully answer your question henk, but if you decide to do so there are other parts to take into account:
- the stronger 9 thooth 3.78 1st gear, obviously.
- differing strength between the 3.88, 4.12 and 4.37 r&p, something i didn't know. apparently 3.88 is strongest and 4.37 weakest.
- keyed or splined gears. later gears and early gears are not easily interchangeable unless you machine the later mainshaft. turned it down and insert a woodruff key.
- woodruff keys need to be hardened.
- 3rd and 4th gear should be welded to their synchros.
- then you would want a later shift fork as it's stronger.
- pref. heavy duty SAW axles.
- a gusseted case is stronger, too.
- and a latin american rhino case is strongest. rhino, that even sounds strong

i can't vouch for all of these bullets points to be 100% correct, but i've been thinking the same thing as you have. i think uncle keith wrote some good points in his performance handbook under fast road and all out street. take a look if you have that book.

Add to that list:
Handpacked needlebearings, or use the earlier steelcaged bearings (they pins are wider in them).

Other than that, it is a VERY good list of things to remember when building a gearbox

[richie]

i cannot fully answer your question henk, but if you decide to do so there are other parts to take into account:
- the stronger 9 thooth 3.78 1st gear, obviously.
- differing strength between the 3.88, 4.12 and 4.37 r&p, something i didn't know. apparently 3.88 is strongest and 4.37 weakest.
- keyed or splined gears. later gears and early gears are not easily interchangeable unless you machine the later mainshaft. turned it down and insert a woodruff key.
- woodruff keys need to be hardened.
- 3rd and 4th gear should be welded to their synchros.
- then you would want a later shift fork as it's stronger.
- pref. heavy duty SAW axles.
- a gusseted case is stronger, too.
- and a latin american rhino case is strongest. rhino, that even sounds strong

i can't vouch for all of these bullets points to be 100% correct, but i've been thinking the same thing as you have. i think uncle keith wrote some good points in his performance handbook under fast road and all out street. take a look if you have that book.

Rhino case isnt stronger,its just new,the material is often softer than old german cores,I would always try to use a good old case over a rhino,just my opinion though

And as for SAW axles,well I will bite my tongue on that subject

cheers richie,uk

[Bruce]

Rhino case isnt stronger,its just new,the material is often softer than old german cores,I would always try to use a good old case over a rhino,just my opinion though

And as for SAW axles,well I will bite my tongue on that subject

I'll agree with that.  The increased webbing on the top of a Rhino case does nothing to strengthen the gearbox in a rear engine configuration.  The gearbox always splits at the bottom.  A German case with a gusset welded on will live longer.

And SAW axles are junk.

[kingsburgphil]

Bruce, can you enlighten me as to the pros and cons of SAW axles?  I have a pair in my car, but have yet to have formed an opinion
of them. 

If and when I do manage to break one, can you recommend a better axle?  We are talking about swing axles...right? 

[Bryan67]

My experience with them is limited but.... I think on a street car with radials they are not needed. If you do use them take a file or a grinder and totally smooth all the edges on the spade end down until they move freely in the end gears. This will keep them from getting chewed up on the ends.

[Bruce]

15-20 years ago SAW axles were indestructable.
Now, breakage is common. 
SAW now equals China junk.

[Diederick/DVK]

thanks for the comments on my list, i'll take it into account

now that SAW axles are junk, are stock axles equally destructible or which axles are recommendable?

let's put things in perspective richie, most of us here don't have 9 second cars

[Felix/DFL]

i cannot fully answer your question henk, but if you decide to do so there are other parts to take into account:
- the stronger 9 thooth 3.78 1st gear, obviously.
- differing strength between the 3.88, 4.12 and 4.37 r&p, something i didn't know. apparently 3.88 is strongest and 4.37 weakest.
- keyed or splined gears. later gears and early gears are not easily interchangeable unless you machine the later mainshaft. turned it down and insert a woodruff key.
- woodruff keys need to be hardened.
- 3rd and 4th gear should be welded to their synchros.
- then you would want a later shift fork as it's stronger.
- pref. heavy duty SAW axles.
- a gusseted case is stronger, too.
- and a latin american rhino case is strongest. rhino, that even sounds strong

i can't vouch for all of these bullets points to be 100% correct, but i've been thinking the same thing as you have. i think uncle keith wrote some good points in his performance handbook under fast road and all out street. take a look if you have that book.

Add to that list:
Handpacked needlebearings, or use the earlier steelcaged bearings (they pins are wider in them).

Other than that, it is a VERY good list of things to remember when building a gearbox

don`t forget the CrMo plate if you are using the old 4 bolt/plate type case
And you want to have the older raw teeth gears 3/4th and not the newer mouse teeth

One thing I am currious about:
Why remove some "pin`s" ( I have seen every second) on the synchros? Only for faster shifting or is there even an other reason?
The remaining "pin`s" are stressed that way way higher

[Rasser]

i cannot fully answer your question henk, but if you decide to do so there are other parts to take into account:
- the stronger 9 thooth 3.78 1st gear, obviously.
- differing strength between the 3.88, 4.12 and 4.37 r&p, something i didn't know. apparently 3.88 is strongest and 4.37 weakest.
- keyed or splined gears. later gears and early gears are not easily interchangeable unless you machine the later mainshaft. turned it down and insert a woodruff key.
- woodruff keys need to be hardened.
- 3rd and 4th gear should be welded to their synchros.
- then you would want a later shift fork as it's stronger.
- pref. heavy duty SAW axles.
- a gusseted case is stronger, too.
- and a latin american rhino case is strongest. rhino, that even sounds strong

i can't vouch for all of these bullets points to be 100% correct, but i've been thinking the same thing as you have. i think uncle keith wrote some good points in his performance handbook under fast road and all out street. take a look if you have that book.

Add to that list:
Handpacked needlebearings, or use the earlier steelcaged bearings (they pins are wider in them).

Other than that, it is a VERY good list of things to remember when building a gearbox

don`t forget the CrMo plate if you are using the old 4 bolt/plate type case
And you want to have the older raw teeth gears 3/4th and not the newer mouse teeth

One thing I am currious about:
Why remove some "pin`s" ( I have seen every second) on the synchros? Only for faster shifting or is there even an other reason?
The remaining "pin`s" are stressed that way way higher

Yes I have seen that too, why?

[mcmscott]

Volkswagen gearsets ran in "sets" of engaugement teeth(sorry my spelling is horible)when these sets wear out the gear will pop out of gear,so when rebuild time comes around you remove these sets and now they engauge in "new"sets. Some firsts are 2 sets of three and some are 3 sets of 3, most all3-4 sets are 3 of 3 then about 70-71 VW made them 5teeth in 3 sets( only in 113 style gears)These are very desirable for hand welded hubs. Most aftermarket gears (Weddle ect,) have all teeth engauging. If you look at the engaugement teeth on a stock gearset you will see the wear patterns. Hope this helps and hope I did'nt piss in anyones outmeal

[Susy]

15-20 years ago SAW axles were indestructable.
Now, breakage is common. 
SAW now equals China junk.

Don't blame China blame SAW

[kingsburgphil]

15-20 years ago SAW axles were indestructable.
Now, breakage is common. 
SAW now equals China junk.

Don't blame China blame SAW

Amen....and well stated.       You order shit.....You get shit! 

Baring a QC issue or proprietary materials/processes the Chinese can manufacture anything as well as anyone else can. We should bear that
in mind the next time we fly on a Boeing airliner....major airframe components are made....Yes!!   in China!

Two "Open" questions, if the fast guys say SAW axles are "junk" OK.  If so, then in comparison to what?

And finally....Why do the "Worlds finest transmission" builders recommend and sell them if they are "junk"? 

I'm not defending SAW products, i just don't want to shit an axle at the line if i can help it.





Sorry for the salty language  But the definition of profanity is "an empty mind trying to express itself"

[Jon]

And finally....Why do the "Worlds finest transmission" builders recommend and sell them if they are "junk"? 

What do you propose they should sell instead? What are our options?

[Gunter]

And finally....Why do the "Worlds finest transmission" builders recommend and sell them if they are "junk"? 

What do you propose they should sell instead? What are our options?

we have the Finnish production in stock ... but that is a different price range compared to SAW

plse email me for all info at gh@csp-shop.de

[Gunter]

hope this helps

http://www.csp-shop.de/cgi-bin/cshop2/front/shop_main.cgi?func=detail&artnr=501%20201%20111AHD

HD Axles - Made in Finland
 



Product Description:
The high-quality finnish swing aceaxles. Made from the finnish MOCN315 metal with the years of professional experience, started 1960. The axles are developed and tested in co-operation with the finnish top VW-racedrivers since 1992.

Qty Item / Partnumber Price     
   HD Axles 61-66. short shaft. short splines
501 201 111AHD
available from stock
     
   HD Axles 68-. long shafts. long splines
501 201 311HD
available from stock
       
   HD Axles 76 mm shortened. short splines
501 201 313HD
available from stock
 

[Jon]

I know Gunter, but those are in a separate league... and our ONLY other option?

[Bruce]

15-20 years ago SAW axles were indestructable.
Now, breakage is common. 
SAW now equals China junk.

Don't blame China blame SAW

....Why do the "Worlds finest transmission" builders recommend and sell them if they are "junk"? 

Probably old news.  When they made the recommendation, SAW was the best.  This begs the question: is SAW now owned by EMPI?

[Gunter]

I know Gunter, but those are in a separate league... and our ONLY other option?

I know my friend ... but for reasons well stated in this topic we decided to offer to the public on a regular base
that is why we started to stock them
and off course to help our Finnish customer (also member of the Lounge) market his product

are you coming to VoWo show this year ?

[Jon]

Yes this year I'm going! See you there?

[Gunter]

Yes this year I'm going! See you there?

for sure 

[richie]

thanks for the comments on my list, i'll take it into account

now that SAW axles are junk, are stock axles equally destructible or which axles are recommendable?

let's put things in perspective richie, most of us here don't have 9 second cars

[richie]

thanks for the comments on my list, i'll take it into account

now that SAW axles are junk, are stock axles equally destructible or which axles are recommendable?

let's put things in perspective richie, most of us here don't have 9 second cars

Yes,but i was talking about people breaking them with 12 and even 13second cars,even people breaking them on the street

On some big turbo cars they had to change them every 5 or 6 passes,this equates to proberly 70 or more pases for you but they will break and it can get really messy when they do

I had some custom 300m rifle drilled axles made for my car,expensive but they will keep it out of the wall   so worth every penney


cheers richie,uk

[nicolas]

you just need the right CV's to mount them and they are fine. 

btw great save when the axle broke... really impressive. 

[Harry/FDK]

So, after reading the topic (more a pissing contest) over and over again we're back to zero. I would like to have a "bulletproof" swingaxle box for my 2165 streetcar.

Thanks,
Harry

[Jesse/DVK]

Have on custom made to your specs with a quaiffe diff

[Diederick/DVK]

... and finnish axles.

[ovaldriver56]

so I take it that ProStreet box use weak early 3.80 first gear?

If the gearbox is advertised as a "Pro-Street", it has the weak first gear.  If it is a "Pro-Street Plus", it has the strong 9 tooth first gear.

That´s interesting. I just ordered a Rancho por-street ransmission at CSP

http://www.csp-shop.de/products/13618b

On their site, it´s advertised with a 3,78 1st gear!