bare bones, keeping it simple, getting back the the VW roots....

[67worshipper]

Finaly an engine thread for me

Love to read about all the nice engine combinations everybody have in there cars, beacuse it´s one of the main recipes for a callooker.

But theres no fonds for any enginebuild right now with three kids in school. The Stock 1600dp will have to give me the fun ride for the buck.
Always wanted a "callokoker" since i was about 12, but it took me 28 years before it happened. A powerfull engine would sit right on i the back, but as one gets older there´s more to life so there will probably never be the "big cc, always wanted engine" after all.

Thats why this thread fits in my budget. Get the best out of the stocker and still having fun driving my "callooker"

hey bugsy your still having fun though! you could do changes as and when funds allow.could still be smiles per miles with a bit of thought

[Bugsy]

Yep!

That was the intention. Would be fun to get one thing after another just to get the feeling of what every litle change would do.

Like the change from 1300 to "big bore" 1600 with a header did.

[Jim Ratto]

the stock 13-15-1600's are so "under-tuned"... I think that's why they make such a startling jump in power with a little love. Still cheap to do if you're resourceful. I know hot rodding the 36hp can be fun, but they break, and are so expensive now. You can spend thousands of dollars and end up with a 37hp.

[Dave Rosique]

the stock 13-15-1600's are so "under-tuned"... I think that's why they make such a startling jump in power with a little love. Still cheap to do if you're resourceful. I know hot rodding the 36hp can be fun, but they break, and are so expensive now. You can spend thousands of dollars and end up with a 37hp.

Yep,

Just built a DP 1776, Engle 100, single Zenith, 009, header, your basic "budget motor" for my Son's Baja and it runs great!

~DR.

[67worshipper]

the stock 13-15-1600's are so "under-tuned"... I think that's why they make such a startling jump in power with a little love. Still cheap to do if you're resourceful. I know hot rodding the 36hp can be fun, but they break, and are so expensive now. You can spend thousands of dollars and end up with a 37hp.

whats the chances of getting 80/90 hp for say a 1000 pounds or equivalent in dollars? stock rods n crank all balanced with the clutch.possibly twin carbs,home ported heads,a mild cam of choice,bolt together rocker shafts,and a few odds n ends

[Jim Ratto]

Deano's 1700 comes to mind, from the blue '67....   Dean, what was it like to drive, when compared to the typical 2276 today?

[Zach Gomulka]

While some might say "why bother, you can build a 1914 for a little more money"

Yep, that's me. If I only could follow my own advise! I do believe it is the smart thing to do, though. Why build a 1776 when a 1915 costs the same? When I built/drove my 1776 T3 engine, one of the first thoughts in my mind was, "I wonder how a 1915 would have been?" That's why AssHull's car is being built with a 1915, it's by far the best bang for the buck. And a torquer 1915 (Engle 100, Kadrons) is being built for my dads bug. Every engine combination rolling around in my brain though is far from the norm... A slip in 1679cc for the GTV (I'll do a full rebuild, you guys win ), an 1835cc or ideally a 1968cc for my '67 long term project, a "clone" of my old 1600 that ran 14's, (THAT was a fun & simple engine!) and many more. I really seem to gravitate towards the sub 2 liter motors that are willing to rev a little. And that have odd ball vintage parts

[Rennsurfer]

I told you about my "junkyard" motor... about a year or so later (around '74-75) I built this: 69X88 stock crank, aluminum flywheel, Howard H2 or H4 camshaft, dual port heads (ported by me), stock valves, dual valve springs, heads milled for high compression, power pulley, 1 5/8" merge header, 010, and the crowning glory... Berg Special 42's.

Oh, YES! Those are some very cool components for a small engine... especially the Berg 42 carbs. LOVE those. Too bad they're a pain to deal with in a full bodied sedan, unless you have the doors installed. Hicken, are you reading this?

 

[RFbuilt]

i have an 88x74 thread 


i have the following cams handy

engle w110 , engle w120 (i have a w100 but then again.. i myt use it as a display LOL)

yes sir fred/mark/fred LOL i am most def building the 88x74  for sure (just completing sum small parts)

i have a feeling though, that the 88x69 motor im doing will get built first,
for my other beetle, 79' fat brazilian haha

keep us updated on your build up with plenty of pics please

will do!! most def!

i do have to buy a digicam though asap (making it obvious every penny goes to the car hahahha)

1st - 1679cc kadron motor
2nd- 1800cc Kadron motor

thats the plan, and in order hehe

[DKK Ted]

My very first motor was a 1500cc that was built FOR me, just getting into VW's. Jack A. at Yankee Beetle Workshop in Montebello had built it for me back in 74'-75' not sure. Motor had SP heads, Zenith carb, 010 dis., I believe it also had a cam, not sure of grind, and stock header/muffler with a  ZOOM TUBE. This motor started it all for me.....

My motor in my car right now is a 2303cc W/E120 cam, Jeff Deham 42X37 heads running IDA's.

My motor in the works is another 2303cc W/86C cam, with Fred Simpson (Performance Tech) heads, 46X36. Still waiting for them. IDA's, A1 Muffler, MSD Ign. My thing is never build a motor the same, always try to go bigger or with more power than the one before. So far I have done that.  It's all fun.......... Technolgy has changed so much through the years.

[Jim Ratto]

Drove Russ Welch's car late last week, just on a slow, short jaunt across San Gabriel area. This car is really, exactly, what a hotrod should be. Nothing beyond a bad tempered motor that wants no part of doing anything except kicking ass and staying on the high side of 5000 revs, a noisy cabin, a hard ride and that's it. Don't kid yourself. even the most hard core VW guy wouldn't/couldn't drive it everyday, it would rip you to shreds. But to jump in when the time's right, let the oil come up to temp, rumble and cough over to the bad side of town... and let it off its leash. That's precisely what a full-on real Cal Look car is supposed to do and that's it.

Jim

[Brian Rogers]

I'm looking at building one of the mileage motors like in HotVWs. Just need the forged 85.5. Stockish heads diy fluff and buff 110 cam 010 dizzy. 40 Dells, what ever big header I can score. Currently running the Dells on a 1600.

[WCB Hitler's Hot Rod]

Drove Russ Welch's car late last week, just on a slow, short jaunt across San Gabriel area. This car is really, exactly, what a hotrod should be. Nothing beyond a bad tempered motor that wants no part of doing anything except kicking ass and staying on the high side of 5000 revs, a noisy cabin, a hard ride and that's it. Don't kid yourself. even the most hard core VW guy wouldn't/couldn't drive it everyday, it would rip you to shreds. But to jump in when the time's right, let the oil come up to temp, rumble and cough over to the bad side of town... and let it off its leash. That's precisely what a full-on real Cal Look car is supposed to do and that's it.

Jim

Who ended up with his car anyways? Just curious.....

[andrewlandon67]

This thread makes me so proud of my little 1641 SP. Some very slight head work, what I believe is an Engle 100 cam, 1.25 rockers, balanced crank, 1 3/8inch header, Kadrons, and a 009 distributor gets my full bodied and interior'd '67 into the mid 18's at 6000 feet altitude, but is still good enough for a fun/slightly snotty daily driver. She'll hold 75 on the highway with a .82 bus 4th gear too, not too shabby for a motor my dad initially put together 24 years ago!

[Jeff68]

This is a great thread! You guys got me thinking......I have a pile of parts in my garage waiting for an engine like this. I just accumulated them, got the parts for not much money when I had not much money to spare.....Bug spray carb with offenhauser manifold, 009 distributor, used 90.5 pistons and cyls, stock standard / standard 69mm vw crank, berg 1 3/8 header  with single quiet pack, set of rebuilt stock vw rods, set of new vw dual port heads with 3 angle valve job, achiever pulley, new set of stock plug wires, blue coil, uncut vw dual relief case...ect   Before I built my 2110 I was going to build just a mild motor so I searched high and low for good cheap parts. Then I gave up and just saved for the NICE stuff and built the 2110....Now if I just have to find some damn TIME to put it together and find a cheap decent car to put the engine in.....

[Neil Davies]

That sounds like a fun little motor, but should be really nice with a pair of 36 Dells. It's basically the 1776 version of my old 1584, which was great fun!

[modnrod]

This is a great thread! You guys got me thinking......I have a pile of parts in my garage waiting for an engine like this. I just accumulated them, got the parts for not much money when I had not much money to spare.....Bug spray carb with offenhauser manifold, 009 distributor, used 90.5 pistons and cyls, stock standard / standard 69mm vw crank, berg 1 3/8 header  with single quiet pack, set of rebuilt stock vw rods, set of new vw dual port heads with 3 angle valve job, achiever pulley, new set of stock plug wires, blue coil, uncut vw dual relief case...ect   Before I built my 2110 I was going to build just a mild motor so I searched high and low for good cheap parts. Then I gave up and just saved for the NICE stuff and built the 2110....Now if I just have to find some damn TIME to put it together and find a cheap decent car to put the engine in.....

Sounds like THE plan! Oh, but stick a cam in it, ESPECIALLY when running a centremount, and even more so with the Holley.
Something with about 250* - 260* @ .050" will make it lump and snort at idle, use straight cuts too, then add a heap of compression.

It won't idle well, it'll be anti-social and cough and fart in traffic, and have bugger-all under 3000. Putting 2 nicely tuned Webers on it will make it quite nice and civil, but where's the fun in that?  
Get the revs past 4000 with your foot in, and like Jim said it will snarl and sing it's way past 6000 ready for the next gear.
Repeat.
Repeat.


My special order cam for my economy motor is beautiful and smooth, really efficient, excellent on fuel.........and about as boring as batshit.
I'm going to get the nice people at Schneider Cams to make me another one just like the recipe above.
 

[Jesse Wens]

I bought my first car at 20 years old... a 1971 1300 DP semi auto. Drove it around for a while untill the dutch guys from keversite.nl did a track day. From then on I hated the semi auto en felt the need for more power. Money was no where to be found being a student and the first european bugin was coming fast. I tore down the 1300 to make it a bit faster only to be told that the rebuilding parts alone where out of my reach.
Luckaly I had a 1200 1970's engine laying around and I read this article in a french magazine about putting some 1300 DP heads on it.
I had the heads from the 1300 rebuilt and bored for around 8,5 CR and put them on the 1200, adapted the tinware to the doghouse kind and got it running a 009 and a set of 36DRLA carbs I bought for a case of beer and rebuild myself.
That engine was a lot of fun.
And because the DP look of it and the way I drove it nobody believed it was a 1192 cc engine.

Later I put a turbo on that same engine and drove A 15,25 in a stripped full steel bug.

On day I will build me that engine again, but then with all tricks I have learned since and probably in type 3 discuise for my fastback

[Torben Alstrup]

Hmm, well, 20 years ago a hopped up 90-100 hp 1600 was reasonably fast and an ok fun factor today I feel that if a beetle should be really fun it needs to be in the 130 - 170 hp range.
That said I still do a lot of stocker plus and sub 130 hp engines. In fact that´s most of what I do. And I can easily find the fun factor with these engines too. Everything at the right time.
But it is ALWAYS fun to come with an underdog of an engine and surprise the big cc guys on the turn pike or on the freeway 

T

[wolfswest]

I just stumbled upon this old topic, got me thinkering...  It seems that almost every "basic build" starts with a 1600 or 1641 base.  Look at the Swedish 1600 challenge that's going on right now, great stuff! 
Now, some of the engines built right there are next level stuff but to shift it back to the basic "sweet 16" or in Europe "sweet 18"  engine: why does almost every build start with the 1600 base?

Is it because the 1300 DP isn't that common in the States?  The cost of a 1600 cilinder/piston kit is the same as a 1300 or 1500 kit?  Does that lousy 300cc really make the big difference in drivability? Or will the 300cc's be more forgiving if the balance of the whole engine isn't "right"?  Or the old bigger is better kinda way of thinking, there is no replacement for displacement?

 Look at the alfa romeo 105 series nord engines, the base model: a 1300 engine.  Also a 60's, 70's design.  It produces 90hp, makes plenty RPM, great sound.  If you can create that package in a beetle which is a much lighter car then the alfa then you got yourself a sweet vintage balanced ride, no? 
Okay, I'm talking about a car that can do everything, working heater, great mileage, long runs, short runs, a quick fun shopping run, fun ride on sunday, not too loud, not too harsh, family car that "hauls ass" with NO compromises on a budget  Not your white knuckle 2276 only good for straights kinda ride...

[andrewlandon67]

I just stumbled upon this old topic, got me thinkering...  It seems that almost every "basic build" starts with a 1600 or 1641 base.  Look at the Swedish 1600 challenge that's going on right now, great stuff! 
Now, some of the engines built right there are next level stuff but to shift it back to the basic "sweet 16" or in Europe "sweet 18"  engine: why does almost every build start with the 1600 base?

Is it because the 1300 DP isn't that common in the States?  The cost of a 1600 cilinder/piston kit is the same as a 1300 or 1500 kit?  Does that lousy 300cc really make the big difference in drivability? Or will the 300cc's be more forgiving if the balance of the whole engine isn't "right"?  Or the old bigger is better kinda way of thinking, there is no replacement for displacement?

 Look at the alfa romeo 105 series nord engines, the base model: a 1300 engine.  Also a 60's, 70's design.  It produces 90hp, makes plenty RPM, great sound.  If you can create that package in a beetle which is a much lighter car then the alfa then you got yourself a sweet vintage balanced ride, no? 
Okay, I'm talking about a car that can do everything, working heater, great mileage, long runs, short runs, a quick fun shopping run, fun ride on sunday, not too loud, not too harsh, family car that "hauls ass" with NO compromises on a budget  Not your white knuckle 2276 only good for straights kinda ride...

My guess would be that the 1300 doesn't allow as much room for unshrouding the valves, even if they're small ones to really get it to breathe, as well as how the basic design of the VW engine is so heavily biased towards reliability and efficiency. I've had similar thoughts about those old Alfas with the little 1300cc motors just screaming away, while the VW 1300 was a tractor motor by comparison. I suppose with enough work you could probably get one to run almost as well as a hotrod 1600, but for the same reason we always wonder how it would run if it was a 1915 instead of a 1776, you'll probably find yourself wondering how it would have run if you'd sprung for the bigger P&Ls too. Ah, the curse of the modular engines...

[BugBusBuggy]

Although I have a 2276 in my '68, I couldn't bring myself to part with the 1584cc VEGE recon motor that it replaced. I bought the VEGE in about 1997 and it's been pampered. I think it'll be the perfect base for a small 'fun' motor. One day. Nothing too major - I want to stick with 1584cc for nothing other than stubbornness, but as per some of the previous posts just add some 'get up and go'.
My thoughts were a hike in compression (happy to run on 98 octane fuel), balancing, lightening, something like a w120 cam, 2x DRLA36, carbs, a bit of head work, 009 dizzy and 1.5" exhaust. Shouldn't break the bank as I've got the base motor and carbs already, but but if I mate it all to a stock 1200 box it'll be plenry for some sub 75mph fun. I keep buying bits for this and I did have a 1200 g/box, then keep parting with them as the '68 always needs 'something'. My mrs suggested I should sell the 2276 to fund the build of the 1584!!!  

[BugBusBuggy]

Although I have a 2276 in my '68, I couldn't bring myself to part with the 1584cc VEGE recon motor that it replaced. I bought the VEGE in about 1997 and it's been pampered. I think it'll be the perfect base for a small 'fun' motor. One day. Nothing too major - I want to stick with 1584cc for nothing other than stubbornness, but as per some of the previous posts just add some 'get up and go'.
My thoughts were a hike in compression (happy to run on 98 octane fuel), balancing, lightening, something like a w120 cam, 2x DRLA36, carbs, a bit of head work, 009 dizzy and 1.5" exhaust. Shouldn't break the bank as I've got the base motor and carbs already, but but if I mate it all to a stock 1200 box it'll be plenty for some sub 75mph fun. I keep buying bits for this and I did have a 1200 g/box, then keep parting with them as the '68 always needs 'something'. My mrs suggested I should sell the 2276 to fund the build of the 1584!!!  

[Rome]

Is it because the 1300 DP isn't that common in the States?

Correct! The 1300 dual-port was never offered on any new engine in the USA! The 1300 was only installed in the Type 1 (Beetle, Ghia) for the 1966 model year, and that was the single-port head with 33 x 30 mm valves. For '67 Type 1, VW went to the 1500 single-port engine with the 35 x 32 mm valves, 1600 single-port for '70 and 1600 dual-port for '71 with the 35 x 32 mm valves. Those were the standard equipment engines. Unlike most European countries, the USA only received the most powerful of any engine choice. 

[Garrick Clark]

Hers a good combo
1776
Eurorace H Grind
40 dells
Standard heads and valve size
Standard ratio rockers
12.5 fly
009
GT gear box

[Clatter]

A goal of 125hp should make for a lively car. Figure a zero to sixty mph in the mid sixes, and a 1/4-mile of 14-15 secs.

 A nice 87 or 88 bore engine, with a pair of small IDFs or even Solex 40PII's, stock valved dual port heads with smoothed and softened port contours, increased cam timing (think 120 Engle), and a nice tuned header, the ubiquitous 009 or 010, and a step up in compression.

Great thread.. Making me reminisce about my younger days of adding parts as the money came.

But,
Um,
a 1641 or 1679 with a fly-cut, home port job and a W120 isn't going to be making 125hp.
More like 75.. 
 

How these kinds of motors come about in my world is the "heater box motor".
Once you're running stock heater boxes, big valves and stroker cranks go out the window.
All kinds of things become just a waste..
Building a motor around stock heater boxes becomes a fun challenge.
Gives me a chance to use the old German parts we have around.

But,
It's hard to go back,
Once you get used to a big built motor.

Find myself with my foot through the boards trying to talk it into giving more.
"come on Betsy, give me some more here, sweetheart, I need around this truck"..
 

[Garrick Clark]

A 120 cam needs a cc of at least 1835

[leec]

A 120 cam needs a cc of at least 1835

My 1776cc disagrees with you 

[wolfswest]

A goal of 125hp should make for a lively car. Figure a zero to sixty mph in the mid sixes, and a 1/4-mile of 14-15 secs.

 A nice 87 or 88 bore engine, with a pair of small IDFs or even Solex 40PII's, stock valved dual port heads with smoothed and softened port contours, increased cam timing (think 120 Engle), and a nice tuned header, the ubiquitous 009 or 010, and a step up in compression.

Great thread.. Making me reminisce about my younger days of adding parts as the money came.

But,
Um,
a 1641 or 1679 with a fly-cut, home port job and a W120 isn't going to be making 125hp.
More like 75.. 
 

How these kinds of motors come about in my world is the "heater box motor".
Once you're running stock heater boxes, big valves and stroker cranks go out the window.
All kinds of things become just a waste..
Building a motor around stock heater boxes becomes a fun challenge.
Gives me a chance to use the old German parts we have around.

But,
It's hard to go back,
Once you get used to a big built motor.

Find myself with my foot through the boards trying to talk it into giving more.
"come on Betsy, give me some more here, sweetheart, I need around this truck"..
 

  Lot's of options to work with heater boxes these days.  You have the "cheap" "big" heater boxes which are 35mm, should be enough for a "hot 1600" with 100HP and CSP even have bigger different tubing size heater boxes to work with their exhaust range if you really want to go with a stroker crank and 44 valves.

But, I follow you in some sort of way: it's gonna be hard to push a 1600 with a flycut and some home ported heads to a healthy 125HP.  But it's certainly doable.  What's the trick?