Question about rear end set up

[Bendik]

I am building a Oval that will have a Cal Look stance. I am just wondering about what to do with the rear end for street use. The torion bars have to come out and I were wondering if I should replace them with some stiffer ones?
This car will not have a very big engine for now and no strip use. I am just looking for some better roadholding and maybe a "tighter" feel than stock.
So should I use the originals with some good shocks or should I use some stiffer ones?

The front end will have dropped spindles, Puma and a sway bar. The rear end will get new urethane bushings and a Camber Compensator.

[Zach Gomulka]

Koni's and you're done

[Lanny Hussey]

I've had good results with 27MM bars in street cars. Leave everything else basically stock, although the Konis are nice. If you plan on using Cal Look tires(135/205) sway bars and the camber compensator are just extra weight IMHO.

[Bendik]

Thanks for the advice. Konis are still prefered over Kybs etc.? Not too stiff? I was tempted to buy the camber compensator after wiping out a rim, backplate and drum on a kerb after doing a 360 i my old 66. It felt like the inner rear tire tucked under. Why are they no use with 145/205 as I will be using (actually they will be 14s)
Also I have been looking for torsion bar covers today, but I found none. Anybody know where I can get some? All I saw were for later cars.

[Zach Gomulka]

I ran KYB's until I put a set of Koni's on my GTV... the difference is night and day. It was by far the best money I've spent on my car. Gas shocks are just too stiff for a VW, in my opinion.

[Bryan67]

How much better are they compared to some stock Cofap oil shocks I wonder? My old green 64 had Addco swaybars front and rear and Konis and even with 145`s and 205`s it really stayed flat in corners.

[Lanny Hussey]

My point is that if you are hitting corners  hard with 135/205's, the tires are the weak link.

[Bryan67]

That may be true. But, My 66 has stock shock and 145`s and 205`s and has a lot of body roll. Even with the big and little tires there is room for improvement.

[Rennsurfer]

I must agree with the oil shock over gas shock theory for our VWs. I used to run gas ones on my orange car. The last year or so that I owned the car, I switched to some generic oil shocks... SO much more fun to drive and rode way nicer.

My current car, I have the standard issue no frills KYB silver shocks all around. Actually handles sort of alright for what it is. Eventually, I'll get some slightly wider front tires. 145s up front, and 185s on the back, I think. Can't remember and don't feel like getting up to go look. Sorry.

[Kaferdog]

I agree with Lanny...A front swaybar also makes the front end ride stiffer too !...no need if yer running 145's or 135's !...that my 2 cents ..

[181]

My current set-up on a balljoint pan is:

front:

new bushings, new ball joints, 14mm sway-bar, ghia discs, Cofap oil shocks, 4.5 Sprintstars and 145/65 Pirelli P6, front is lowered and using caster shims

rear: urethane bushings, Sway-A-Way camber compensator, Cofap oil shocks, 5.5 Sprintstars and 185/65 Pirelli P6, Type 3 rear drums, rear is lowered maybe one click from stock, but will go to stock height soon. I´ll also go to 205/65 rear tires as 185/65s are lowering my gearing a fair bit.

The car handles like its on rails.

I have the parts to convert the rear to IRS with a disc brake kit, and rear sway bar. I realise that it will handle even better as IRS add some centimeters to the track and keep the wheels straight to the ground.

I also wonder if I should upgrade to bilstein shocks with the conversion.

[qubek]

I agree with Lanny...A front swaybar also makes the front end ride stiffer too !...no need if yer running 145's or 135's !...that my 2 cents ..

How can a front stabilizer bar make ride stiffer?

I agree that with 135/205 combo the Bug will probably just not handle , but still, I would use a camber compensator. It's a little bit different thing.

I have 27 or 28 (don't remember) mm short torsion bars and I like them. The car feels stiffer (but definitely not to stiff), comparing to old stock bars.

[Kaferdog]

Well.... both sides are connected to each other , it's like adding more leafs to your front end ...which would make it more ridged ....not allowing the front arms to work independently...they now work as two

[Rennsurfer]

I agree with Lanny...A front swaybar also makes the front end ride stiffer too !...no need if yer running 145's or 135's !...that my 2 cents ..

Lost me on that one. The VW engineers put that sway bar on the front end for a very good reason. To keep the car's front suspension together during turns. I hardly agree with the notion that a sway bar will make a car ride stiffer. Cornering, perhaps... but not in the ride department. It's not a problem to leave the front sway bars off on a VW air cooled car. But for me, I'll always run, at very least, the factory one. Bigger, if I had the money. I've driven Bugs with bigger front and rear sway bars on twisty roads... SO NICE!

For those that choose to be happy going in a straight line, leave 'em off... I guess. That's the one part of "Cal Look" that I never ever understand and I never will. I suppose it's largely due to the fact that I'm a skateboarder & surfer first and foremost. Therefore, I must hit turns at Mach speeds.

To each their own... just my worthless 2¢

[TexasTom]

Fred,

You're way off ... goin' in a straight line is the marrow of Cal Look. Think of where & when it started and WHY.
Big & littles with a huge motor & carbs, what else is it good for?
Sure, I turn corners too and swaybars help me along ... but it's all about my personal best down the track that keeps my chin up in the crowd at the meets ... not my time down 'XXX boulevard'.

Take that thing of yours down the strip and see what she'll do!
It'll put a smile on yer face ... or you've got some work to do.

TexasTom


... sorry for going off-topic!

[Zach Gomulka]

Sway bars make a difference in ride quality. My GTV rode wonderfully with the stock bar, I replaced it with the 3/4" bar and the ride really suffered. Small bumps feel much more "sharp" than they did before, I'm really not a fan. I've now got an original EMPI 5/8" bar to put on it, but I'm wating until I find a matching bar for the rear so I can install them at the same time.

[Rennsurfer]

Fred,

You're way off ... goin' in a straight line is the marrow of Cal Look. Think of where & when it started and WHY.

Disagree. Going in a straight line is what it started out as, but hardly the marrow. That's subject to opinion. I know where it started and why. Built my first one in '79 and got hooked on 'em a few years before that, seeing 'em on the streets.

To each their own, like everything else.

[Cornpanzer]

The only way that a sway bar will have a negetive effect on ride is when only one wheel hits an obstacle (pot-hole, speed-bump, whatever).  Unlike the torsion plates, the sway bar is not fixed in the center.  However, because it is tied to the other wheel, it CAN increase the spring rate...but this usually will only happen in situations where you would want the spring rate to increase. For example when you hit a large bump with one wheel that could unsettle the car.

Saying that you removed the sway bar to improve the ride is just plain silly. 

I have to respectfully disagree with Lanny.  Even with a traditional Cal-Look tire choice, a camber componsater on a swing-axle car is not a bad idea.  No matter what tire is on the car, that device will limit the amount of positive rear camber in extreme cornering situations.  You may never plan on carving a corner, but when another car swerves into your lane or pulls out in front of you, it may just keep you off your lid. 

I also dont see any point in going with big bars, with the possible exception of the sag-prone 67.  I especially feel this way about drag cars.  The reason V8 drag cars dial stiff suspension into thier cars is to plant those tires harder into the pavement.  Few VW's are traction limited (great weight distribution) so why not allow the car to squat and absorb some of the shock of a drag-race start.  Its like a built in anti-shocker.     Plus, I have always felt that if you get into trouble on the big end with a softer sprung car, you have a little more time to gather it up before you pile it into the wall, but I have no science to back that up.

A side point, if you have ever heard someone say that they installed urethane spring plate bushings into thier car and it made the ride stiff or started squeaking, it is because they installed them wrong.  Over the counter urethane bushings MUST be trimmed or ground to fit into the torsion housing.  If you try to cram an un-trimmed bushing into the housing and draw the cover down on it, all that you will accomplish is to crush that bushing down on the spring plate tube effectivly locking it up and preventing the spring plate from being able to move thorugh its travel.  I have actually heard of people resorting to  extra long bolts as the only way to get the cover back on over the torsion bushing.  Like so many other things in life folks....if you have to force it, your doing it wrong!   

With all that being said, my car has not front sway bar (they didnt make narrowed bars when I built it), no camber componsator and it has a spool....so what do I know about handling???   

[danny gabbard]

Stomp and steer, What I heard. I agree about the forceing parts together. Just give it to the large fellow with the hammer

[Rennsurfer]

A side point, if you have ever heard someone say that they installed urethane spring plate bushings into thier car and it made the ride stiff or started squeaking, it is because they installed them wrong.  Over the counter urethane bushings MUST be trimmed or ground to fit into the torsion housing.  If you try to cram an un-trimmed bushing into the housing and draw the cover down on it, all that you will accomplish is to crush that bushing down on the spring plate tube effectivly locking it up and preventing the spring plate from being able to move thorugh its travel.  I have actually heard of people resorting to  extra long bolts as the only way to get the cover back on over the torsion bushing.  Like so many other things in life folks....if you have to force it, your doing it wrong!   

Excellent point and advice regarding the urethane bushings.

[Bill Schwimmer]

I agree with Dave re: the softer bars. I ran the stock bars in my car for years with great results, car left hard, never broke the gearbox. I succumbed to the race car influence around & put bigger bars in (26mm or 27mm I cannot remember) & the gearbox started breaking every 5 or 6 passes. I know that some people have had great success with the bigger bars, but that is my experience. If you have a lighter car you can get away with it, however if you have a full weight 1900# plus 200 hp car the type 1 box is on borrowed time anyway & you need to take every advantage to make it live.
  So what to do ?  Put some urethane bushings on & some Koni's & move on to something else  Bill

[Bruce]

There are 2 things that will make your car handle like crap.  Swing axle rear suspension, and bicycle front tires.  Changing rear bars won't do anything for you if you stick with those 2.

If you use a 145 tire instead of a 135, you're better off.  Or consider the new Stupid Car tires, 165/60/15.  From the side they don't look much different from a 145.

I can't see a camber compensator having any negative effects, only positive.

Konis and urethane torsion bar grommets (properly installed as Dave said above).

[Neil Davies]

I agree with Dave re: the softer bars. I ran the stock bars in my car for years with great results, car left hard, never broke the gearbox. I succumbed to the race car influence around & put bigger bars in (26mm or 27mm I cannot remember) & the gearbox started breaking every 5 or 6 passes. I know that some people have had great success with the bigger bars, but that is my experience. If you have a lighter car you can get away with it, however if you have a full weight 1900# plus 200 hp car the type 1 box is on borrowed time anyway & you need to take every advantage to make it live.
  So what to do ?  Put some urethane bushings on & some Koni's & move on to something else  Bill

Stock bars can work wel, especially with bus snubbers - here's my old race car squatting well!

I never broke a box either. Did a few motors, but not a gearbox...

[mcmscott]

Well anyone can see why you went thru motors........ you don't have your engine compartment seal in properly!!( please relize this is only a joke)

[BeetleBug]

Hi Neil,

What`s you`re best 60ft times with that rear end set up?

Cheers,
BB

[Neil Davies]

Hi Neil,

What`s you`re best 60ft times with that rear end set up?

Cheers,
BB

I haven't looked for a while but 1.54's to 1.58 seems about right. I do remember that I got sub 2.00 with a basically stock 1600 on 36Dells. It very rarely wheelied, just squatted like the picture showed and went! Front shocks were some Competition Engineering adjustables and the backs were some silver KYBs.

[Neil Davies]

Well anyone can see why you went thru motors........ you don't have your engine compartment seal in properly!!( please relize this is only a joke)

Ah, that was it! Do you think the fan belt missing was a problem too?