Zinc Additives...Which Brands.... Or are they Needed?

[BeetleJuice]

Since I've last had my Bug on the road & track some 10 yrs ago,it seems to have become imperative that additives are required in oils for our valvetrain style. I use to run ELF 20/50 oil and had no issues.

I see lucas, Redline and others.

What are Preferred brands & experiences?? Also is there a certain percentage of Zinc & phosphorous that I should look for?


regards


Craig

[John Rayburn]

You want over 1200 ppm. I run the Brad Penn 20/50, it has around 15-1600 ppm. Another important factor is the film strength. I've never seen anything quite like this oil's film strength. If you run this, you won't need an additive. There are a few other oils that meet our zinc phosphorous needs. Valvoline's NON street legal VR1 , Amsoil Racing oils. Be sure to avoid the SM rated oils, they are not sufficient.

[Jim Ratto]

I use Valvoline 4-stroke 20W50 cycle oil w/ 1 bottle STP "red" for every 4 qt

[BeetleJuice]

The oil I'm looking at using has the qualities listed below:

Density at 15deg C, kg/L               0.8790
Viscosity, Kinematic, cSt
                          at 40deg C        285
                          at 100deg C      29.3
Viscosity Index                             141
Viscosity, Cold Cranking @-10deg C 4.662
Zinc, Mass %                               0.176
Sulfated Ash, mass %                   0.88
Base number                               6.2


Nowhere does it mention PPM..Whatever that is? Is this above oil stats good enough? Maybe I need to investigate B/Penn & Valvoline oil here in Australia.

Craig

[John Rayburn]

PPM means parts per million. The info you seek is not always readily available. You sometimes have to dig further. You might inquire with the manufacturer. What is the brand and type oil you're looking at?

[BeetleJuice]

Hi John


Penrite HPR 50 is the oil with the att details. They state they do NOT recommend any additives though! I've just had a look at B/Penn's info and Penrite seems to be as good in some area's.

Craig

The oil I'm looking at using has the qualities listed below:

Density at 15deg C, kg/L               0.8790
Viscosity, Kinematic, cSt
                          at 40deg C        285
                          at 100deg C      29.3
Viscosity Index                             141
Viscosity, Cold Cranking @-10deg C 4.662
Zinc, Mass %                               0.176
Sulfated Ash, mass %                   0.88
Base number                               6.2


Nowhere does it mention PPM..Whatever that is? Is this above oil stats good enough? Maybe I need to investigate B/Penn & Valvoline oil here in Australia.

Craig

[Jeff68]

Take a look at Torco oils - all have MPZ - I'm about to switch to Tr-1 10 X 40 - thisis a petroleum based oil, not synthetic.  Torco does ofer synthetics as well.  They also ofer a Zinc additive - magnetic friction reducer.....great product.

[John Rayburn]

Hi John


Penrite HPR 50 is the oil with the att details. They state they do NOT recommend any additives though! I've just had a look at B/Penn's info and Penrite seems to be as good in some area's.

Craig

The oil I'm looking at using has the qualities listed below:

Density at 15deg C, kg/L               0.8790
Viscosity, Kinematic, cSt
                          at 40deg C        285
                          at 100deg C      29.3
Viscosity Index                             141
Viscosity, Cold Cranking @-10deg C 4.662
Zinc, Mass %                               0.176
Sulfated Ash, mass %                   0.88
Base number                               6.2


Nowhere does it mention PPM..Whatever that is? Is this above oil stats good enough? Maybe I need to investigate B/Penn & Valvoline oil here in Australia.

Craig

                                             You should be good with the Penrite in Australia, as their ratings differ from what they are calling out in the U.S. Most of the Penrite there has upwards of 1700 ppm of zinc/ phosphorous, and more in the turbo diesel variety. Contact one of their reps there, and talk to him, reps are usually pretty forthcoming with this stuff. Even in the U.S. the reps I've talked to have been pretty blunt about there own products. The Castrol rep told me that every oil, except the Syntec, was completely inadequate for flat tappet use, and he really wouldn't recomend the Syntec either. The Valvoline rep said the same for all their oils , but said the " non street legal" VR1 oil was more than adequate.

[kingsburgphil]

Any opinions on Mobil 1 Racing 0-50w ?   

(Please check their website first) 

[John Rayburn]

It's not an over the counter SM oil, thank God. It should work well, depending on film strength. I'd like to see test data on it. I'm also assuming it's a low detergent oil, which would be another plus.

[kingsburgphil]

I like what I read about the high heat capability, as well as it's use in Nascar Cup series. 500 miles at 9 grand plus is good enough for me. 

[Jim Ratto]

You want over 1200 ppm. I run the Brad Penn 20/50, it has around 15-1600 ppm. Another important factor is the film strength. I've never seen anything quite like this oil's film strength. If you run this, you won't need an additive. There are a few other oils that meet our zinc phosphorous needs. Valvoline's NON street legal VR1 , Amsoil Racing oils. Be sure to avoid the SM rated oils, they are not sufficient.

John's 100% right, avoid the off the shelf "SM" oils.
up until about year and a half ago, you could buy Mobil 1 "turbo diesel" 5W40 that was not under the SM rating, yet. I bought the last of it for my turbo Subaru, when I could find it.
In the Bug I was running Valvoline 15W40 diesel oil, before it went SM too. The old SL rated was like 1500ppm ZN. Now, I've found the 20W50 cycle oil has around 1300ppm, isn't SM (it's the old SJ).
Charles Navarro has some excellent write ups on oil for air cooled older motors.

[BeetleJuice]

Could some explain the difference between SM & SL Ratings??

Also, what so I look for as far as film strength goes? Is there anything in oil specifications I look for?


Craig

[John Rayburn]

The SL oils still had fairly normal zinc levels, while the new SM rated oils have a maximum 900 ppm of zinc. Most of the SM oils in actuality have in the neighborhood of 600 ppm. The SM's are also higher in detergent, usually labeled, extended interval, or something along those lines. High detergent is not good for our engines, as the detergent can't tell the difference between the sacrificial zinc layer on your parts, and dirt. It treats them equally, and removes them from the vital surfaces. This is why break in oils are non detergent, and racing oils get dirty quickly. Racing oils have low detergency, and have to be changed out sooner. Film strength is more of a research project of looking through test data, or just experiencing the different oils. If you ever try to brake clean a part full of Brad Penn, you'll see what I mean. It's really hard to get the oil off the part. It's the clingiest stuff I've ever encountered.

[BeetleJuice]

Thanks John. Wonderful info there! 


Years ago, does anyone have specs on the old oils?

[Brown-nose]

John/Jim could you clear up for me which valvoline you recommend ?

http://www.valvoline.com/products/consumer-products/motor-oil/racing-motor-oil/

the site doesn't call the "non street legal" oil VR-1 at all.
 the regular VR-1 (mineral 20/50) is the SM one you guys are saying NOT to use, correct ?
can't see if the synthetic is SM or SL though.
i'm guessing it's the non street legal (synthetic as well)

judging by other posts i'm thinking you don't believe valvoline's claims of very close levels of zinc between the vr-1 and the non street legal (1%)
the FAQ says you can use additives...good if you already have some in your motor 

thanks guys

[John Rayburn]

John/Jim could you clear up for me which valvoline you recommend ?

http://www.valvoline.com/products/consumer-products/motor-oil/racing-motor-oil/

the site doesn't call the "non street legal" oil VR-1 at all.
 the regular VR-1 (mineral 20/50) is the SM one you guys are saying NOT to use, correct ?
can't see if the synthetic is SM or SL though.
i'm guessing it's the non street legal (synthetic as well)

judging by other posts i'm thinking you don't believe valvoline's claims of very close levels of zinc between the vr-1 and the non street legal (1%)
the FAQ says you can use additives...good if you already have some in your motor 

thanks guys

                                                             The regular VR1 should NOT be used. The synthetic has or had a rating of SL that would make it OK, but I bet this is an older ad that has not been upgraded. It's approved for street, so it has probably been switched to SM. It will say on the bottle if you look at it in the store. The non street legal oils generally won't have a rating because they are not street legal and don't need to conform. The difference between the street legal and non street legal VR1 are not even close. They claim high zinc in the street legal, yet it holds an SM rating. You cannot have both. If you exceed 900 PPM, you cannot be rated at an SM. You can dick around with additives, but you can throw off the balance of things they have in the oil to make it function. It's best to have the right oil that you don't need to add anything to.

[Fasterbrit]

John, do you have any experience or knowledge of the Lucas Zinc oil additive? It's called 'break-in' oil ZB and is designed for flat tappet  cams. Woul be interested to know its zinc content in ppm and suitability for air cooled motors.

[Torben Alstrup]

Hello.
The Elf 20/w50 is - supposidly - rather good. A bunch of the local vintage car owners have switched to that from Castrol.
1. Because its cheaper, and 2, because  the HTHS @ 150C. cP is lower, and the index is only 119. meaning that it flows better than the Castrol.
 I have not tested it on Aircooled VW´s, as I fell into the trap of trying Brad Penn. Shouldnt have done that Now there is no way back. The engines even SOUND different (less mechanical noise)
T

[Brown-nose]

John/Jim could you clear up for me which valvoline you recommend ?

http://www.valvoline.com/products/consumer-products/motor-oil/racing-motor-oil/

the site doesn't call the "non street legal" oil VR-1 at all.
 the regular VR-1 (mineral 20/50) is the SM one you guys are saying NOT to use, correct ?
can't see if the synthetic is SM or SL though.
i'm guessing it's the non street legal (synthetic as well)

judging by other posts i'm thinking you don't believe valvoline's claims of very close levels of zinc between the vr-1 and the non street legal (1%)
the FAQ says you can use additives...good if you already have some in your motor 

thanks guys

                                                             The regular VR1 should NOT be used. The synthetic has or had a rating of SL that would make it OK, but I bet this is an older ad that has not been upgraded. It's approved for street, so it has probably been switched to SM. It will say on the bottle if you look at it in the store. The non street legal oils generally won't have a rating because they are not street legal and don't need to conform. The difference between the street legal and non street legal VR1 are not even close. They claim high zinc in the street legal, yet it holds an SM rating. You cannot have both. If you exceed 900 PPM, you cannot be rated at an SM. You can dick around with additives, but you can throw off the balance of things they have in the oil to make it function. It's best to have the right oil that you don't need to add anything to.

thanks John. i checked a bottle of regular VR-1 one today and it said SL not SM. that's over here in the UK.

[Jim Ratto]

Talking to a customer up north that gets me my Canton filter stuff, about oils. He carries Redline race oil. You might find this interesting.... 2400ppm of zinc! 

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=15&pcid=1

[Dominick Luppino]

This is the only additive and oil products I use and recommend!

http://www.lubeatech.com/index.html

[Brown-nose]

Talking to a customer up north that gets me my Canton filter stuff, about oils. He carries Redline race oil. You might find this interesting.... 2400ppm of zinc! 

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=15&pcid=1

interesting...i wonder what mileage these oils are good for ? joe gibbs XP4 has 2800 ppm but only about 500 miles usable life ! 

[BeetleJuice]

With reference to Redline specs below, is there a point where there can be too much Zinc & phospherous? Is there anything about these specs raises concerns?

I don't care if I need to spend $$$ on oil that needs to be chanced regularly if it provoids the protection and excellent lubrication to my new engine. After all, I'm spending $50-$100 per week on fuel (Shell Optimax) in my daily driver!


ABOUT RED LINE MOTOR OIL FOR RACING
 
Reformulated for improved frictional properties
Special detergents for improved lubricity and less detonation
Polyol ester base stocks provide more stability and film strength when exposed to excess fuel dilution
Each of these products has no less than 2200ppm of zinc and phosphorus for antiwear
Each race oil product is a multi-grade, offering 2-4% more power than oil of a similar viscosity - 20WT is a 5W20, 30WT is a 10W30, 40WT is a 15W40, 50WT is a 15W50
Improved protection at startup, lower oil temp, cleanliness
Remember to change these oils more frequently than regular motor oils
 
 ALSO AVAILABLE FROM OUR DEALERS
 
10504 - 50WT Race Oil (15W50) - quart
10505 - 50WT Race Oil (15W50) - gallon
10506 - 50WT Race Oil (15W50) - 5 gallon
10507 - 50WT Race Oil (15W50) - 16 gallon
10508 - 50WT Race Oil (15W50) - 55 gallon
 
 
 
 
TYPICAL PROPERTIES
 

Phosphorus, avg PPM 2500
Zinc, avg PPM 2400
Viscosity Grade N/A
SAE Viscosity Grade 15W50
Vis @ 100°C, cSt 16.8
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 116
Viscosity Index 158
CCS Viscosity, Poise, @*C 34@-15°C
Pour Point, °C -45
Pour Point, °F -49
Flash Point, °C 272
Flash Point, °F 522
NOACK Evaporation Loss,1hr @ 482°F (250°C), % 6
 
 
 

[BeetleJuice]

Hi Torben

I found your comments very interesting on B. Penn.

Is your oil pressure good or a little high? I've heard B.Penn 20-50 makes engines run hotter..Here in Toowoomba Australia, temperatures reach 44 dec C in summer and go as low as -3degC in winter! I've heard BPenn 20-50 referred to as tar!

Any further info and comments would be appreciated.


Craig

Hello.
The Elf 20/w50 is - supposidly - rather good. A bunch of the local vintage car owners have switched to that from Castrol.
1. Because its cheaper, and 2, because  the HTHS @ 150C. cP is lower, and the index is only 119. meaning that it flows better than the Castrol.
 I have not tested it on Aircooled VW´s, as I fell into the trap of trying Brad Penn. Shouldnt have done that Now there is no way back. The engines even SOUND different (less mechanical noise)
T

[Frenchy Dehoux]

    I use the Lucas engine break-in oil additive with 20w50 Castrol in all my VW engines including all V12 Lincoln Zephyr.

    Thanks
    Frenchy

[kingsburgphil]

For what it's worth I've used Torco oils on and off for 45 years. Currently have Torco TR1 in my motor, no complaints as of yet. I'll probably
step up to one of their synthetic racing oils when the car/motor is more streetable.

http://www.torco-oil.com/index.html

[kingsburgphil]

Any thoughts on  "Cam Shield"?  (It's available @ CB Perf.)

[dyno don]

phil...on the mobil 1...my experience as a line mechanic in the early 70's i was introduced to mobil 1 and after changing over to mobil 1 from conventional oils in several v8 cusomer cars they each came back one at a time to have me readjust their idle as the mobil 1  had so much less friction.  in ALL of my personal vw's however  I have been using valvoline racing oil with not one engine failure..!! the zinc i believe is quite sufficient in the valvoline racing oil for just about any vw application... but it is my 'personal preference'. Ive seen it all from the early days of VW drag racing the many different oils. when the big dogs came racing and could only manage a few races before teardown with 14:1 compression and then changing over to  the 'new blends' of oil they went another two events before teardown so the testament is there but all depends on preference and experience. assembly is also a factor/blueprinting will always ensure some added reliability especially with bearings and bearing contact surfaces. I believe also that many other factors should be considered for engine failure such as too much fuel bypassing the rings and diluting the oil/too much compression leading to detonation/improper timing/bad driving habits/etc.....  oil shmoil,pass me a cold beer..!!

[bug]

Hello,

I use in my 2.6 liter typ4 engine Kendall red line oil 20W60.

ZDDP = 2000 PPM

Regards from the Netherlands,
Maurice