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Author Topic: 2017 build  (Read 19952 times)
bugnut68
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« on: July 15, 2010, 18:45:37 pm »

From here on out, I will try and keep my inquiries on tech stuff within this thread, so perhaps someone else out there can benefit from the same help and assistance that I've received so far. Grin 

I'm basically down to checking for cam gear to oil pump clearance in terms of checking clearances in the bottom end, as just about everything else is wrapped up (stroker crank clearance, cam to lifter, etc. etc).

I figured I'd get a jump on the top end end of things, as while I have done valvetrain geometry before, I've never checked for piston to valve clearance.  I've read up in the Berg blue book about using clay for this purpose and understand the process.  Are most folks operating off of Gene's tolerances for clerances on engines turning over 6K RPMs?  It seemed like it was .100 inch on the intake and .125 on the exhaust side, don't remember off the top of my head.
In the event there's  insufficient clearance, do I need to have the pistons notched?
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Jim Ratto
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« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2010, 20:10:28 pm »

From here on out, I will try and keep my inquiries on tech stuff within this thread, so perhaps someone else out there can benefit from the same help and assistance that I've received so far. Grin 

I'm basically down to checking for cam gear to oil pump clearance in terms of checking clearances in the bottom end, as just about everything else is wrapped up (stroker crank clearance, cam to lifter, etc. etc).

I figured I'd get a jump on the top end end of things, as while I have done valvetrain geometry before, I've never checked for piston to valve clearance.  I've read up in the Berg blue book about using clay for this purpose and understand the process.  Are most folks operating off of Gene's tolerances for clerances on engines turning over 6K RPMs?  It seemed like it was .100 inch on the intake and .125 on the exhaust side, don't remember off the top of my head.
In the event there's  insufficient clearance, do I need to have the pistons notched?

which cam and rockers are you running?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 20:12:42 pm by the faster we go the rounder we get » Logged

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Who was fitted with collar and chain?
bugnut68
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« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2010, 20:11:51 pm »

From here on out, I will try and keep my inquiries on tech stuff within this thread, so perhaps someone else out there can benefit from the same help and assistance that I've received so far. Grin 

I'm basically down to checking for cam gear to oil pump clearance in terms of checking clearances in the bottom end, as just about everything else is wrapped up (stroker crank clearance, cam to lifter, etc. etc).

I figured I'd get a jump on the top end end of things, as while I have done valvetrain geometry before, I've never checked for piston to valve clearance.  I've read up in the Berg blue book about using clay for this purpose and understand the process.  Are most folks operating off of Gene's tolerances for clerances on engines turning over 6K RPMs?  It seemed like it was .100 inch on the intake and .125 on the exhaust side, don't remember off the top of my head.
In the event there's  insufficient clearance, do I need to have the pistons notched?

which cam and rocklers are you running?

Engle 125 with CB Performance 1.25 ratio rockers.
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Jim Ratto
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« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2010, 00:04:02 am »

you're working on same stuff I just played with last Saturday, I mock up motor partially and take care of a few steps at one time at this stage... note no assembly is going on at this point. I mock up crank/cam/case/#1 cylinder & piston/known degree wheel. From there I check TDC indicated vs true TDC, check cam advance/timing, lock cam gear in position, check lobe lift, check duration @ .050 then again @ .020. The lobe center method is an easy way to see where your cam is. Then I bolt head on assembled with both intake/exh valves for # 1 but with light springs. From there I check valve to piston with clay, like you mentioned. I think the specs in blue book are right on, unless you're blessed with Type 4 center main crank, Carrillos, ti valves, etc. (my 911 Porsche guy runs as little @ .065"!!!). You don't want to base your geometry checks on light springs, same with spring height, because you'll find you lift .025" or so more with lights than with your good dual springs. I check every valve for true full lift after making a real pushrod (using an adjustable one for this against real springs will yield you a pretzel).
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DER KLEINER PANZERS

Who was fitted with collar and chain?
bugnut68
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« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2010, 00:35:19 am »

you're working on same stuff I just played with last Saturday, I mock up motor partially and take care of a few steps at one time at this stage... note no assembly is going on at this point. I mock up crank/cam/case/#1 cylinder & piston/known degree wheel. From there I check TDC indicated vs true TDC, check cam advance/timing, lock cam gear in position, check lobe lift, check duration @ .050 then again @ .020. The lobe center method is an easy way to see where your cam is. Then I bolt head on assembled with both intake/exh valves for # 1 but with light springs. From there I check valve to piston with clay, like you mentioned. I think the specs in blue book are right on, unless you're blessed with Type 4 center main crank, Carrillos, ti valves, etc. (my 911 Porsche guy runs as little @ .065"!!!). You don't want to base your geometry checks on light springs, same with spring height, because you'll find you lift .025" or so more with lights than with your good dual springs. I check every valve for true full lift after making a real pushrod (using an adjustable one for this against real springs will yield you a pretzel).


Thanks for the info... it has yielded me additional questions Grin

How do you set up your dial indicator for degreeing the cam?  Berg book says to set up a dummy lifter in the pushrod tube hole to use a dial indicator on, but doesn't really elaborate on how to do it.  Just curious as to the best way to do it.

Next question: if I can't check geometry with the adjustable tool in place, how do I do it?  Do I use a light spring to check geometry and then make a pushrod once I determine the needed pushrod length using the light spring?  And where can I get a properly sized light spring?

Another question: what is the mandated ring gap spec for 90.5mm pistons?
« Last Edit: July 16, 2010, 00:36:51 am by bugnut68 » Logged
Jim Ratto
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« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2010, 00:54:26 am »

I use a sawed off stock pushrod with a 1/4x28 bolt screwed into the cut end. The head of the bolt is the flat spot for indicator.
Geometry is different than setting up pushrod length. Get your lift reading using adjustable p/rod and light springs. leave light springs in, open valve 50% by hand (on motor or on bench) see which way rocker assy needs to go (up away from head? Or need taller lash caps [same as moving rocker down into head]?) then finalize where rockers need to be (or lash cap height) then assemble heads with real springs, "fill in void" between lifter and rocker with adjustbale p/rod, cut your real p/rods to length and assemble then check full lift against real springs and w/ real p/rods. Adjust installed height accordingly, check for coil bind...etc etc etc.
yes it takes hours.
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bugnut68
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« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2010, 01:43:05 am »

I use a sawed off stock pushrod with a 1/4x28 bolt screwed into the cut end. The head of the bolt is the flat spot for indicator.
Geometry is different than setting up pushrod length. Get your lift reading using adjustable p/rod and light springs. leave light springs in, open valve 50% by hand (on motor or on bench) see which way rocker assy needs to go (up away from head? Or need taller lash caps [same as moving rocker down into head]?) then finalize where rockers need to be (or lash cap height) then assemble heads with real springs, "fill in void" between lifter and rocker with adjustbale p/rod, cut your real p/rods to length and assemble then check full lift against real springs and w/ real p/rods. Adjust installed height accordingly, check for coil bind...etc etc etc.
yes it takes hours.

Last engine I built had single HD springs... setting up geometry and determining pushrod length was a lot easier, but I've been down that road before.  Are these lite springs available through automotive specialty shops; if so, any you recommend in particular?
What am I looking for in coil bind, I've seen a figure of .050" floating about?  Also how about retainer to guide clearance, what's the number I'm looking for there?
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bugnut68
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« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2010, 03:09:47 am »

Any tips on how to separate an eight-dowelled flywheel?  I've seen a tool available for rent through aircooled.net, just checking as I don't want to bugger up my dowel pins or dowel pin holes on the flywheel during assembly.
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bugnut68
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« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2010, 17:07:42 pm »

Any tips on how to separate an eight-dowelled flywheel?  I've seen a tool available for rent through aircooled.net, just checking as I don't want to bugger up my dowel pins or dowel pin holes on the flywheel during assembly.
Anyone? Bueller?
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Zach Gomulka
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« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2010, 17:24:37 pm »

Put the flywheel on the ground, crank sticking up. Wiggle the nose of the crank back and forth with your feet on the flywheel until it works loose. I saw Jose at DRP do it, so it must be the way! Cheesy
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Born in the '80s, stuck in the '70s.
bugnut68
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« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2010, 17:55:37 pm »

Put the flywheel on the ground, crank sticking up. Wiggle the nose of the crank back and forth with your feet on the flywheel until it works loose. I saw Jose at DRP do it, so it must be the way! Cheesy

I'll take your word for it, as that's who I bought my crank from! Lol Grin 

I guess it wouldn't be the end of the world to fork out $20 to rent the RLR tool from aircooled.net, I just worrry I would need it longer than 20 days, given the way things generally run in my garage. Lol!
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Jim Ratto
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« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2010, 20:06:43 pm »

Put the flywheel on the ground, crank sticking up. Wiggle the nose of the crank back and forth with your feet on the flywheel until it works loose. I saw Jose at DRP do it, so it must be the way! Cheesy

I'll take your word for it, as that's who I bought my crank from! Lol Grin 

I guess it wouldn't be the end of the world to fork out $20 to rent the RLR tool from aircooled.net, I just worrry I would need it longer than 20 days, given the way things generally run in my garage. Lol!

I wouldn't remove an 8pin flywheel from a crank like that. I pull straight back, not wiggle. You can thread gland nut in partially, turn crank up pulley end up, set gland nut on upside down socket and lightly strike flywheel near center with rubber mallet. Wiggling it will (eventually) loosen dowels in holes of flywheel- not good.
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Who was fitted with collar and chain?
bugnut68
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« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2010, 16:39:35 pm »

Just goes to show that there's no such thing as being too attentive to detail.  I won't take credit for discovering this discrepancy, as it was VW ace Brian Hyerstay that noted the issue during the balancing process.  Two of the dowel pins on my crank had some wobble to them, so, for safety's sake, I've pursued oversize dowel pins for the flywheel and crank.  Glad he caught that, as a loose flywheel and/or sheared pins would ruin my day in short order...lol.  Can't be too careful with componentry, especially on an engine build.
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bugnut68
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« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2010, 19:15:24 pm »

Damn, I hate it when shops don't give me a straight (as in "truthful") answer.  I should have trusted my instinct.  I bought a Scat (Part No. 60025) chromoly gland nut for the new motor build, asking specifically if it was a 36mm hex head.  They said, "Yeah, that's the standard size," or something to that effect.  Trusting them, I bought it, and now that I'm home, have verified that it's a 1-1/2-inch gland nut. 

I wanted a 36mm size so I could use my TorqueMeister tool on it, making final assembly/torquing duties much easier, as was the case on my 1776 build.

My question is this: if I were to keep this Scat bolt rather than return it, how would I go about torquing it and what is the accepted torque for a chromoly gland nut?  I don't have a torque wrench that measures up to 250-plus foot-pounds, just wondering what the proper technique is.
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bugnut68
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« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2010, 01:03:37 am »

Damn, I hate it when shops don't give me a straight (as in "truthful") answer.  I should have trusted my instinct.  I bought a Scat (Part No. 60025) chromoly gland nut for the new motor build, asking specifically if it was a 36mm hex head.  They said, "Yeah, that's the standard size," or something to that effect.  Trusting them, I bought it, and now that I'm home, have verified that it's a 1-1/2-inch gland nut. 

I wanted a 36mm size so I could use my TorqueMeister tool on it, making final assembly/torquing duties much easier, as was the case on my 1776 build.

My question is this: if I were to keep this Scat bolt rather than return it, how would I go about torquing it and what is the accepted torque for a chromoly gland nut?  I don't have a torque wrench that measures up to 250-plus foot-pounds, just wondering what the proper technique is.

Anyone?
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bugnut68
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« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2010, 01:56:20 am »

Moderators, could this thread possibly be moved into the Cal-Look section rather than remain in the Pure Racing forum?  Just trying to maximize traffic in getting questions answered... thanks in advance! Grin
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stealth67vw
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« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2010, 02:57:58 am »

Bugpack and Berg are the only ones that sell 36mm gland nuts.

Use a 3 foot long cheater pipe on a 3/4" breaker bar with a 1 1/2" socket and apply all of your weight on the very end of the cheater bar to apply maximum torque. Assuming you weigh 150lbs it will apply 450lbs at the gland nut. For every foot of breaker bar length, the torque is doubled. Not exactly accurate, but people have been doing it this way for decades.
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John Bates
JB Machining Services
kingsburgphil
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« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2010, 00:56:57 am »

Bugpack and Berg are the only ones that sell 36mm gland nuts.

Use a 3 foot long cheater pipe on a 3/4" breaker bar with a 1 1/2" socket and apply all of your weight on the very end of the cheater bar to apply maximum torque. Assuming you weigh 150lbs it will apply 450lbs at the gland nut. For every foot of breaker bar length, the torque is doubled. Not exactly accurate, but people have been doing it this way for decades.
X2   Wink
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bugnut68
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« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2010, 01:09:43 am »

Well, I weigh about 190, so I guess I'll have to make some adjustments in terms of breaker bar length...Grin  The way I see it, I could return this Scat gland nut, but then would have to pay shipping to return it to Portland, and then shipping again for either the Bugpack or Berg gland nut.  I suppose I could use the breaker bar technique as long as I can feel assured I'll get it tight enough.

What should a Scat 1-1/2" gland nut be torqued to?
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stealth67vw
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« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2010, 02:55:58 am »

Scat gland nuts are good. I've used them for years. Save yourself the shipping headaches and torque it to about 400+ ft lbs using the method above. I've heard people taking them to 500 but I think 350-400 is sufficient.
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John Bates
JB Machining Services
bugnut68
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« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2010, 16:38:17 pm »

Scat gland nuts are good. I've used them for years. Save yourself the shipping headaches and torque it to about 400+ ft lbs using the method above. I've heard people taking them to 500 but I think 350-400 is sufficient.

Does it need to be fully torqued to the full setting when setting end play, or just "good and snug?"  Fully torqued would make the most sense to me, but I just wanted to confirm.
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Jim Ratto
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« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2010, 18:45:22 pm »



Use a 3 foot long cheater pipe on a 3/4" breaker bar with a 1 1/2" socket and apply all of your weight on the very end of the cheater bar to apply maximum torque. Assuming you weigh 150lbs it will apply 450lbs at the gland nut. For every foot of breaker bar length, the torque is doubled. Not exactly accurate, but people have been doing it this way for decades.
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DER KLEINER PANZERS

Who was fitted with collar and chain?
stealth67vw
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« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2010, 01:38:28 am »

Scat gland nuts are good. I've used them for years. Save yourself the shipping headaches and torque it to about 400+ ft lbs using the method above. I've heard people taking them to 500 but I think 350-400 is sufficient.

Does it need to be fully torqued to the full setting when setting end play, or just "good and snug?"  Fully torqued would make the most sense to me, but I just wanted to confirm.
Yes, fully torqued is only way I do it.
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John Bates
JB Machining Services
bugnut68
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« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2010, 16:50:05 pm »

Scat gland nuts are good. I've used them for years. Save yourself the shipping headaches and torque it to about 400+ ft lbs using the method above. I've heard people taking them to 500 but I think 350-400 is sufficient.

Does it need to be fully torqued to the full setting when setting end play, or just "good and snug?"  Fully torqued would make the most sense to me, but I just wanted to confirm.
Yes, fully torqued is only way I do it.

Gotcha, made the most sense to me.  Next question: is there a set clearance factor for cam gears to the pump?  I'm clearing, but just wanted to know if I need to allow for expansion of metals once the engine gets hot and stuff. 
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Jim Ratto
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« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2010, 17:40:55 pm »

Scat gland nuts are good. I've used them for years. Save yourself the shipping headaches and torque it to about 400+ ft lbs using the method above. I've heard people taking them to 500 but I think 350-400 is sufficient.

Does it need to be fully torqued to the full setting when setting end play, or just "good and snug?"  Fully torqued would make the most sense to me, but I just wanted to confirm.
Yes, fully torqued is only way I do it.

Gotcha, made the most sense to me.  Next question: is there a set clearance factor for cam gears to the pump?  I'm clearing, but just wanted to know if I need to allow for expansion of metals once the engine gets hot and stuff. 
it's in the Bill Fisher HP book
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Who was fitted with collar and chain?
bugnut68
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« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2010, 17:56:12 pm »

Yet another inquiry: oil pump covers.  Is there one that's better over others, i.e., steel versus aluminum?  I have a generic aluminum one I am considering using, just wondering if there's pros and cons to each type of pump cover.  I'm trying to use parts I currently have, but also wish to avoid issues of leaks and what not.  Had no issues with my Berg pump cover on the last engine.
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lawrence
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« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2010, 17:58:21 pm »

Yeah, you need that book and two more: The "idiots manual" by John Muir and the red cover with longblock, "how to rebuild your VW aircooled engine". These are the resources I used when building my 1914. The Berg tech articles are good too. Good luck.

Berg steel with port for full flow. Works for me.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2010, 18:00:37 pm by lawrence » Logged

"Happiness is a Hot VW!"
bugnut68
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« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2010, 18:12:47 pm »

Yeah, you need that book and two more: The "idiots manual" by John Muir and the red cover with longblock, "how to rebuild your VW aircooled engine". These are the resources I used when building my 1914. The Berg tech articles are good too. Good luck.

Berg steel with port for full flow. Works for me.

I'm not completely unfamiliar with building VW engines, I've built two others before, a 1600 and a 1776.  Grin Besides that, I have both the books you mention, though I honestly have very little use for the Idiot Manual.

I'm just new to stroker territory, and do have some questions on things I've not had to deal with before, as well as have an interest in what others share as opinions on certain parts versus others. 
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lawrence
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« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2010, 18:18:58 pm »

Sounds good. Yeah it is tough when a decision can make or literally break an engine. There were a few occasions when I was worried about a choice I made, but it all worked out in the end. That is one reason why I chose to build my engine. If something went wrong I could only blame myself.
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Jon
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« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2010, 18:26:16 pm »


I wanted a 36mm size so I could use my TorqueMeister tool on it, making final assembly/torquing duties much easier, as was the case on my 1776 build.

My question is this: if I were to keep this Scat bolt rather than return it, how would I go about torquing it and what is the accepted torque for a chromoly gland nut?  I don't have a torque wrench that measures up to 250-plus foot-pounds, just wondering what the proper technique is.

My TorqueMeister tool came with instructions on how you use it for larger size bolts. Basically what you do is flip the body of the TM over (mount the gear from the other side) , and weld a 36mm brakedrum nut to the socket size you need. I had to machine some mm's of the socket before welding to get the dimensions right.
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