Lightening up my valve train

[tonybone]

Can anyone help.
I'm planning a refurb on my 2276.. not a major rethink but a freshen up with new bearings, pistons and cylinders and new cam and followers..
Motor specs.
Scat 82mm crank
Bugpack race rods with 2200psi bolts
Engle FK87 Cam
Lifters lightweight scat
Berg power pulley sized equaliser pulley
Heads Street eliminators ported and polished by JMR 60cc chambers
Compression 11.5
Chromoly cut to length pushrods
Rod tubes. Tapered racing
Cooling kit.. Porsche 240mm fan and shroud by BAS
Oil cooling.. Porsche front mount cooler
Carbs 48 delorto with 42 mm venturies

In the above form, and a gearbox with close 3rd and 4th 1.58 / 1.04 and a 3.88 diff she ran low 13's all day and this was in a full body, full custom interior 67 ( heavy car)
I know there is more in there and will change out the diff to a 4.12 and maybe closer 2nd too.
She runs fine on pump gas and with the Porsche cooling kit she runs cool oil temps too. No worries on the street in this form.

Would installing lighter valves and rockers give me much of an advantage. EG go over to titanium valves and Pauter roller tip rockers.
I'm also planning on going injection and throttle bodies 48mm maybe from CB performance. Does anyone have any views if going this way will net greater power.

[Bruce]

....Lifters lightweight scat.....

If you wanted to lighten the valvetrain, don't use Scat heavyweight lifters.  At 14% heavier than stock, it's pretty misleading calling them "lightweight"

[still-water]

Hi,

May i ask how you get 11.5/1 compression with 60cc 's in the chamber? Are you running some special pistons(squishies) or "positive deck" ?

Thankx for your reply.

[Zach Gomulka]

Good eye... even with minium deck (.040"), that only gives 9.5:1.

I'd rethink your gear ratios. If you put a 4.12 in there, you'll find that you probably don't need a shorter 2nd, too. So go with the 4.12, and bring up 4th to close your huge 3-4 gap.

A light valvetrain is always a good thing. Ti valves and Pauter rockers are nice, but spendy. You can find cheaper ways to lower your ET (if that's really what you're looking for).

I doubt if the fuel injection will give you much more power, assuming that your carbs are in a good state of tune now. It may offer greater driveability, mileage, and less hassle.

[tonybone]

Thanks for the reply guys and yes you did point out a huge mistake on my part,, Oh well that's 15 years of not driving the car for you. Ive been out of the UK for this long and now am returning to uncover the car, freshen her up and bring her out onto the street and strip again. My memory on the chamber cc's is wrong, sorry I meant 60thou deck height..

I'm currently running 1.4 autocraft rockers and thought the roller tips would be nice and more efficient, yes expensive but if they help I would do it. Are titanium valves OK for limited street use?? I only drive the car at weekends ( when its not raining) and up to the pod and race her and then drive her home again.
The gear ratios yes you are correct, I'm gonna go the trusted setup of the 4.12 diff and 1.58 and 1.21 4th. Ill take advise on the closer second as Ive not gone this route before. Box is solid mounted but gonna tie in the frame horns this time with role cage.

Ill either go throttle bodies or go IDA's.. Yes current carbs were set perfect and were set up on the rollers.

[nicolas]

....Lifters lightweight scat.....

If you wanted to lighten the valvetrain, don't use Scat heavyweight lifters.  At 14% heavier than stock, it's pretty misleading calling them "lightweight"

sorry i don't get this. i weighed a stock lifter and it was 86 g and a scat that i have is 75 g. so it with what i have it is lighter. but maybe there are other lighter stock lifters? please let me know as this is a topic i haev been thinking about as well.
like in the camshaft tread the answer is both a better camshaft suited for a VW engine and its use (street, strip, rpm range,...) and in relation to that a suited valvetrain that isn't too heavy or with too much tension.

[Udo]

A light weight lifter is the best you can do to get more rpms with the same springs . 500 rpms and more depending on the cam. My new lifters will get 58 gramms (60 before) . This is the same as the originals had here in Germany

Udo

[Zach Gomulka]

A light weight lifter is the best you can do to get more rpms with the same springs . 500 rpms and more depending on the cam.

Really? Not doubting your experience, but I've always read that weight is best removed from the valve side of the rocker arm.

What original lifters were only 58 grams???

[Tobi/DFL]

Hi Zach,

I guess that Udo is referring to the lightweight Witzemann lifters which unfortunately are no more available since some years.

Tobi

[gator_push]

Any weight that can be skimmed off the valvetrain is good, especially when you approach the rpm borderline of your valve springs. Yes, the effect of where the weight is exactly removed might vary, has anyone done the math yet? I would be very interested...

Consider the purchase of lifters as a long-term investment, this will make it a no-brainer for the rest of the time: buy a set once with the weight specification (standard or lightweight) that is suitable for your application and in the right quality. Following the latter, most people will tell you to stay away from the Scat lifters when taking a look at your specs (me included).

I have gone through the whole painful process of flat cams and terribly pitted lifters, finally did this one-time investment five years ago (Udo Becker lightweight lifters) and it has been a no-brainer until today. K-800, 1.5 rockers, chromoly 160.000 psi pushrods, valve lift >16mm, shift rpm >8k.

[bilboa2]

think smaller valve stem and beehive valve springs. nascar did it. ask vw guy joel mohr. or google v-8 engine guru joe sherman thoughts. he has dyno proof , see comp cam articles with his praise.Worked well for my recent 87x94 motor, more race motor testing here soon in nevada by ken taber who has been in the industry for years.  Joel and i where talking that with a little work his  STREET CAR (2442) could run supergas (11.90) .With profiled 48idfs , PUMP GAS !!. Gotta love those clyde heads and light valve train. Joel at fontana bracket racing (on RADIALS) , lifted at the top end (had the guy covered) 12.18 at 99mph. 110 mph prev pass. Joel states that many vw guys are stubborn on changes but more will follow as more results are posted. credit don at r @ d spring for leading industry, motorcycle, nascar,.. vw.  ?? bill

[nicolas]

Ok a bit of a treadhighjack, but i just weighed a set of CB lightweights and they are the same weight as my scats. they weigh 75g each. but what 'bothers' me is that they rattle since they have a circlips in them and are made of two pieces (why?)
and what is so bad about scat lifters. i think it has to do with compatibility.

[tonybone]

Funny that you have said that about flat cams and heavily pitted lifters.
Previously I did a tear down for a freshen up and found the scat lifters very heavily pitted and the cam going flat.
I put back in what came out so in went the new scat lifters and a new FK87. She was correctly run up on first fire up to bed the cam and followers.. Im going to be interested what I find this time.
This was the time I ran my best 1/4, just after the freshen up, so maybe having a cam back in there that was doing its job could have helped,  but saying that,... the increase in bhp and lower ET's were also due to the hike in comp from 9.5 > 11.5 and having some serious porting done, and going from 1.25's to 1.4 ratio rockers, then a proper setup on the rollers.
SO what lifters to use my friends.!??

[gator_push]

and what is so bad about scat lifters. i think it has to do with compatibility.

Yes, it is all about material compatibility between cam and lifter. Some time ago there was a threat about research done on the Rockwell hardness of several lifter types, either in this forum or in cal-look.com. One of the findings was that the HRC hardness of the Scat lifters was significantly higher compared to other types. The conclusion was that they are too brittle for applications with high valve spring forces. Can anyone recall this thread?

tonybone, go with the Udo Becker lifters. They do not require any break-in at all, seriously.

[jick]

i just recently bit the bullet and bought some of udo's lightweight lifters for 2276cc, they're not cheap, and the decision to buy them came after a load of consideration of all the pro's and cons of them against various other brands.....BUT...now i've got them the peace of mind that i have knowing they're not going to pit or wipe out the cam is worth a hell of a lot more than they cost me.

[Bruce]

....Lifters lightweight scat.....

If you wanted to lighten the valvetrain, don't use Scat heavyweight lifters.  At 14% heavier than stock, it's pretty misleading calling them "lightweight"

.... i weighed a stock lifter and it was 86 g and a scat that i have is 75 g. .....

The genuine VW lifters I have weighed that were from engines built in the 70s weighed 82g.  The common Scat "lightweight" lifters I weighed were a hefty 98g.  This is the heaviest lifter on the market! 

If you have some 75g Scat lifters, they must be a new version, and they will be hollow.  Are they a 2 pc lifter?

[Bruce]

... what 'bothers' me is that they rattle since they have a circlips in them and are made of two pieces (why?)

They are 2 pieces so they can be hollow.  Hollow lifters are quite a bit lighter than solid lifters. 
Another advantage of a hollow lifter is that the manufacturer can make the lifter from whatever they want, then the pushrod cup can be hardened steel.

[Fasterbrit]

The last three sets of scat lightweight lube a lobes used in various engines I have built have all failed. Two engines pitted and cracked from the lube hole outwards. My turbo engine shattered a lifter in to three pieces. All engines blueprint built and run on fully snyth, high zinc, oil after initial 30 min break in on mineral oil with zinc. All lifters were dated om
packaging as being manufactured in 2006. Turbo engine on k800s to 7,500 rpm max. N/a engines on cb 044 standard duals to 6k.

My confidence in them is now non-existent and I refuse to use them on customer engines from this point on.

I agree on Udo's lifters - pay once and cry only once! A very good long term investment.

[james wotton]

don't forget the cb 28mm lightweights good lifter.
been using them for past three years no problems my scat looser lobes had one fall at the track and also on the dyno so my confidence in them is nothing .

[tonybone]

Thanks a lot for the help guys.. I checked Udo web site last night and yes expensive but the way to go for peace of mind.

 

Now I cant wait to get the motor out and get stuck in to some upgrades and fine tuning.

Cheers

[nicolas]

....Lifters lightweight scat.....

If you wanted to lighten the valvetrain, don't use Scat heavyweight lifters.  At 14% heavier than stock, it's pretty misleading calling them "lightweight"

.... i weighed a stock lifter and it was 86 g and a scat that i have is 75 g. .....

The genuine VW lifters I have weighed that were from engines built in the 70s weighed 82g.  The common Scat "lightweight" lifters I weighed were a hefty 98g.  This is the heaviest lifter on the market! 

If you have some 75g Scat lifters, they must be a new version, and they will be hollow.  Are they a 2 pc lifter?

they are onepiece... i must have an 'odd' batch... we'll see how they work out. i also have a scat cam. so that must be compatible anyway.

... what 'bothers' me is that they rattle since they have a circlips in them and are made of two pieces (why?)

They are 2 pieces so they can be hollow.  Hollow lifters are quite a bit lighter than solid lifters. 
Another advantage of a hollow lifter is that the manufacturer can make the lifter from whatever they want, then the pushrod cup can be hardened steel.

they are hollow. so i will also see what they do. i just am not too confident about the design in a high rpm engine as the circlips isn't that big... but i will loctite it together and experience it myself.

they are not in the box anymore, but i think they are the 28mm lightweight ones.

[Bruce]

If you have some 75g Scat lifters, they must be a new version, and they will be hollow.  Are they a 2 pc lifter?

they are onepiece... i must have an 'odd' batch... we'll see how they work out. i also have a scat cam. so that must be compatible anyway.

If they are one piece and not hollow, they can't be 75g.  How are you weighing them?