Swing Axle box power

[Andy Sykes]

Having failed to get my car to action due to my turbo pissing out oil :rolleyes:. Ive got i T4 to go on now. My box is pro street spec so ok for 200ish but now the car is still off the road until october ive got time to sort out this week piont.

Ive got no problems IRSi ng the car and putting a bus box in or getting a swing axle box if it can to handle the power?

what do you think?

cheers andy

[Garrick Clark]

Give Pete at Cogbox a ring.

[Udo]

If you still have irs go with a bus box . Depends on the power you have . heavy car and 250 + horsepower a bus box is stronger...

Udo

[Andy Sykes]

If you still have irs go with a bus box . Depends on the power you have . heavy car and 250 + horsepower a bus box is stronger...

Udo

i dont have irs but no problem to convert, fingers crossed i will have 400bhp and i dont want to be worrying to much about the box, when i started out with my turbo install was only planning on 300 at the most.

Will a bus box fit without chopping the car about?
Whats the best trailing arms to use?
Whats cvs will handle the hammering?

cheers andy

[dannyboy]

andy give cogbox a ring m8 

[Udo]

If you still have irs go with a bus box . Depends on the power you have . heavy car and 250 + horsepower a bus box is stronger...

Udo

i dont have irs but no problem to convert, fingers crossed i will have 400bhp and i dont want to be worrying to much about the box, when i started out with my turbo install was only planning on 300 at the most.

Will a bus box fit without chopping the car about?
Whats the best trailing arms to use?
Whats cvs will handle the hammering?

cheers andy

So that you are from the uk i would also ask Pete at coxbox , he knows what is best
Sounds like you need bus box and swing axels,,,,

Udo

[SteveW]

IRS all the way, stronger and safer

Are you planning on racing? If your not then I would say a type 1 would be fine, to be fair even racing you can make them live with clutch management and maintenance but a bus box is definately the better way. On an early car some minor mods are needed I think but a later car is a little easier.

Stock beetle A Arms are the easiest to use, depending on how low you run the car and how wide a tyre you want they may need narrowing or run wider fenders/wings.

CV wise again for road use type 1 would be fine but for racing you need type 2 or Porsche 944 CV's, with the power your talking of the safer bet would be 930 size CV's.

But yes your best option is to speak to Peter at Cogbox

[rossi46]

Give Pete a call at Cog box, he can do you you a swing axle box that will handle the power

[Martin]

swing axle does just fine

[Jim Smith]

Ditto that Mr Taylor 

[Andy Sykes]

ive looked at all my options and im going to fit a G50 box just got to find one now lol, ive spoken to pete and im not going to a swing axle box to take 400bhp in a full weight car. So i looked at a bus box and for the price of bomb proof one was on par with fitting a G50 and then i get 5 speed

cheers andy

[Airspeed]

So i looked at a bus box and for the price of bomb proof one was on par with fitting a G50 and then i get 5 speed

cheers andy

That was exactly my reasoning 3 years ago as well Andy 

[BeetleBug]

But for the price of a G50 or a full race bus box you could have 2 - 3 fully prepared T1 boxes that will do the job very well and if that is not enough for you they do actually fit. Bargain! I do believe both the CSP Ghia, Hector Urias (RIP) and Bubetz showed  us all how much power a T1 box can take with the right clutch management.

BB

[SteveW]

I do agree with that Kalle but you do have to do more maintenence on them to keep them alive. Look at the pro stockers, Shawn Geers for example ran a type 1 box but Mike at Rancho used to rebuild it after every race meet!!

Swing axle does work 'fine' if you like camber change but we all know IRS is the way forward

[Fiatdude]

Long read -- but this was change over was done by a very successful ET racer out here -- and he now has no issues

http://ultimateaircooled.com/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=6000.0

[BeetleBug]

Long read -- but this was change over was done by a very successful ET racer out here -- and he now has no issues

http://ultimateaircooled.com/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=6000.0

Hey.. that`s cheating! Or what do you think Steve? 

[SteveW]

I love Mikes build up thread! We'll be doing something similar in our re-build!

[Jim Smith]

Whats wrong with camber change on a swing axle set up ?

[StrokerMcDell]

^^^^^

WHS

[SteveW]

Is that a serious question??!!

[StrokerMcDell]

I think you are only looking at one aspect of s/a / camber change.

[Jim Smith]

Yeah, was a serious question?

[SteveW]

I think you are only looking at one aspect of s/a / camber change.

But that 'one aspect' of swing axle camber change is a massive flaw!! I would never drive a racecar that was still swing axle. IRS is stronger, safer and less maintenance. No comparison..

[Jim Smith]

What is the massive flaw? Why is IRS safer?

[Martin]

I like swing axle, now ive got it nice and strong.

and i have no reservations about driving it past 150mph. it 'feels' rock solid and the chassis data logs show its doing what it should.

If swing axle is setup wrong, it will try to kill you. If IRS is setup wrong, it will still try to kill you.

I think you have to bear in mind a few points.

 If your car is Squatting a lot in an irs car you still get a good contact patch, if a S/A car is squatting then your loading up the inside of the tire more due to the camber change.

My point is the car shouldn't be squatting that much in the first place. how much power do you think its saps winding up the suspension to the point of massive squat, when you could be using that power to go forwards.

the squatting does help with wight transfer, but we don't need that much transfer. We aint no V8

its like the wheelie, a big wheelie doesn't get you down the track faster it only gets your picture in the magazines. why wast all that power going up, when you could be going forward.

theres a fine balance to strike.

Long live the Swing Axle!

seams to work just fine for Team Red Baron, just look how fast are they going with swing axles. no drama 


Man i just love a VW


Martin

 

[StrokerMcDell]

I think you are only looking at one aspect of s/a / camber change.

But that 'one aspect' of swing axle camber change is a massive flaw!! I would never drive a racecar that was still swing axle. IRS is stronger, safer and less maintenance. No comparison..

Whats the fastest mph you have ever driven a S/A Vw ??
Whats your experience of the "massive flaw" ??

[SteveW]

I totally agree Martin, both set-up's need to be set-up correctly for them to work. I know there are fast cars running swing axle fine, but for me personally there is still that aspect of camber change that concerns me. I know 100% we have no worries with our car's set-up and would take it as far as we possibly could and if for instance a pass needed to be aborted instantly coming off the throttle does not concern me.

Now I think we're all in agreement that a bus box is stronger than a type 1 and people are running them more and more, 'personally' I think it's a step backwards to carry on with a swing axle set-up when the IRS is already half done. Now in your set-up I completely understand your way, its strong and I guess much cheaper than converting your ladder bar set-up to IRS but starting from basic, the CV set-up is super strong and like I say that worry is gone..

Steve

[Bruce]

...  how much power do you think its saps winding up the suspension to the point of massive squat, when you could be using that power to go forwards.

Winding up the suspension doesn't steal power from what's pushing the car forward.  The suspension wind-up is just the reaction to the forward motion.  This is straight from Newton.

[Martin]

I think what I'm trying to say is,

That if you've got swing axle then its great run with it. if you've got IRS then great run with that. there both as good as each other. They both get you down the track nice and safe so long as you spend time setting them up correctly.


Bruce, May be you could start a thread on the dynamics of the suspension and its setup's and how the rotational forces act on it along with the weight transfer.

I for one would be very interested in everyones views and findings. This is a very very interesting subject for me and I'm sure a lot of other people on here.

My findings:-
Put a S/A cars hand break on and dip the clutch, the car squats. I applied these findings to the start line. loads of power trying to turn the wheels, and the wheels not wanting to turn as they are stationary.


Every day's a School day!


Martin

[Steve G]

"My findings:-
Put a S/A cars hand break on and dip the clutch, the car squats. I applied these findings to the start line. loads of power trying to turn the wheels, and the wheels not wanting to turn as they are stationary."

With the hand brake on (rear wheels) dragging the clutch will make the car squat because the brakes are being rotated by the torque aplied to them.
If you do similar with the car held on the line lock (front brakes) the result will be different, (depending on your spring plate angle), I think..