Killed the day doing tin work on my type 4 oil cooler kit from the BERGS...

[rick m]

One thing I like about the BERGS parts is they always fit the way they are supposed to...providing you use OEM engine tin. I elected to use my aftermarket 36hp fan shroud and what a piece it was. I  ended up doing a lot of fitting, refitting, cutting and fabricating to make sure everything lined up. I also fabbed a deflector place for sealing off the bottom of the air duct to ensure that all the air is going through the cooler. Did the same on the deflector piece that goes on the outside of the cooler, ensuring that the air gets out of the engine compartment.

Also working on my own deflector pieces for the bottom of the engine, to ensure that header heat does not get near the engine.  This way the air flow from the fan is directed out of the motor and the exhaust is not radiating heat up to the engine when the car is moving.

Took a few shots of the work.  Knocked out most of my Saturday cramming to get the engine pieces done and the motor in the chop top.

Rick M

[rick m]

Here are a couple more shots of the engine tin project, showing the deflector plates on the bottom of the engine.

Rick M

[Black Sheep]

Nice work Rick  ,
I've not ever thought about modding the bottom tins , may have to take another look at mine while I've got the motor out 

[Torben Alstrup]

Very nice work. and yes the aftermarket cool tin SUCKS!
I have even thought of reproducing new upper cylinder cool tin as they arew the worst to make to fit. But the cost for stamping molds etc. are about  € 130.000  So I abandonned the project.

BUT. I continue to be surprised that you guys keep on making this mod with the type 4 oil cooler with type 1 shrouds on your cars. It has now been proved several times, that it DOES NOT HAVE A POSITIVE EFFECT on cooling the oil UNLESS the engine revs above 3300 rpm with stock ratio gearing of the fan. And even then the difference is very little due to the metered amount of air being led to the cooler. (14%)
In fact I have even seen negative effects on the cooling when rpms were in the 2500 rpm range. -The only time I have seen a really positive effect of it was on an early 60 car where we used a late shroud with vent ring and at the same time used lid stand offs. Then the engine bay was practicly force fed with air and overall temperatures was lower than normal even on a hot day at 50 mph.

The boxing of the lower heater channels however, is a very good thing to do. I would like to do that more often, but pricing on projects normally do not allow for such modifications.
T

[Rick Meredith]

The boxing of the lower heater channels however, is a very good thing to do. I would like to do that more often, but pricing on projects normally do not allow for such modifications.
T

Really? I didn't think these pieces had any effect on cooling as they're after the heads/cylinders. I always thought they were just to protect the pushrod tubes from road debris so they always were quick to hit the trash bin.

So what effect do they have on cooling?

[Torben Alstrup]

The simple fact that they lead more hot air away from the engine instead of letting it rise up around the valve covers leads to lesser oil temps. I will admit it is minor, but there is a measureable difference of about 3 degrees. - On a stock engine you have the heater boxes to "lead the way" for the air.

A couple of degrees here and there suddenly makes the difference as to why one guy has heat problems and the next guy dont.
T

[Donny B.]

DOES NOT HAVE A POSITIVE EFFECT on cooling the oil UNLESS the engine revs above 3300 rpm with stock ratio gearing of the fan

I can't speak for others, but I usually cruise at 75MPH on the highway and my RPM is from 3600-3800.  Yes I have a type IV oil cooler and the Berg tin mod....

Did I mention that Rick and I both live in Arizona with temps over 115F in the summer time.  I will take all the help I can get.

[Zach Gomulka]

I like the type 4 cooler mod, but I increase the fan speed by using a smaller Porsche gen pulley and/or a larger Berg crank pulley as well. I get more air through the heads and [larger] cooler as well as more air through the heater boxes- if I'm using the heat or not. The "sled" tins and their counterparts by 2 & 4 are essential to proper cooling.

[Diederick/DVK]

how usual are those sled tins when using type 3 deflector tins?

[glenn]

I had a Type 4 cooler on my old 1904 and found it didn't cool any better than before with the Type 1 cooler. On my current 2180 i'm using a stock Type 1 cooler with no secondary cooler needed.

The lower industrial tins are needed when you are not running heater boxes.

[Airspeed]

Nice Glenn!
That tin should be delivered with every J-tube set sold!

[BeetleBug]

I agree, but where do you get them?

[Zach Gomulka]

From a 181, or an industrial engine. I believe there is someone making them as well...

[Chris W]

Berg has them also.

[pupjoint]

I agree, but where do you get them?

i got mine from Clarke, he has ads in Samba reproducing these, FI venturi ring and also offering powdercoating services.  great bloke, great stuff.

[pupjoint]

IIRC, i also saw this boxing up method on early oval engines.

[rick m]

Like Donny B stated, we live in Arizona and we take every advantage we need here. I've had big motors on the street here with 115 degree heat. My motors do not overheat as a result of all the proactive things we do on our cars.  Everyone can do what they like. We build for our climate and our conditions.

The early Porsche upper pulley is an old trick and I have also run that combo.  Just make sure you are running welded fans.  My goal is to keep the temps down even on a recovery mode after a quick blast. So far, everything I have tried works for me.  Like Torben stated,  every incremental improvement helps. So, why not take the time for them.

As for the industrial tin, it does not seal as well as I wanted. I am making all mine and I also make sure I get the best possible reduction in air loss possible with all the things I do.  Perfect, no. Effective, yes.

For those that live where median temps are lower than what we see from March through September,  you can get away with almost anything. I used to live in California, for over 25 years.  I also did not take the time to do these type mods but had to adapt while living here.

As for the Type 4 oil cooler, if you do not make the mods I have to ensure all air flow goes through the cooler with the least loss of air flow,  you will not see an appreciable difference. I run this in addition to a remote cooler with a thermostat driven fan as well. Again, Arizona heat is crazy.  Heat is what kills air cooled motors. So, we do the extras.

As for the combination of things I run..they've worked for me so I continue to run them. I have a dash full of gauges and they are not there for looks. I monitor the engine and make sure it lasts.


40+ years of driving hypo VWs on the street helps you try a lot of things and learn a lot as well. I had to shift my paradigm when moving to Arizona.

Rick M

[Torben Alstrup]

how usual are those sled tins when using type 3 deflector tins?

They are not usual at all. It is a type 1 thing.

The type 3 deflectors are also sort of a thing from the past, due to the fact that many many people do not even use the lower cool tin. When that is the case the type 3 deflectors are "the way to go", because they aid in keeping the lower part of the cylinders cool. But it will never equal a proper type 1 set up. Time has shown that. On top of it all the drag of the fan is about 1 hp higher at medium speed (3000 - 3500 rpm) compared to regular type 1. Something I was very surprised to experience.

- I know about Arizona. Cold AND warm. Too hot for me though, at least in the summertime. Once I even tried to drive in 2 foot of snow in the morning and in the afternoon we drove with the window down in almost 30 degrees C. - Quite an experience 
- Now the shroud is done, but I do think that you would have gotten the same result by adding the velocity ring to the fan inlet. I will admit that I have no facts on that, but my "seat of the pants" observations are absolutely positive.

T

[glenn]

I agree, but where do you get them?

Berg or Awesome Powder Paint: http://www.awesomepowdercoat.com/Industrial_Shields.html

[Rick Meredith]

Wow... Great info gentlemen... certainly learned more about the cooling system and it's given me ideas for my next build.

[rick m]

I've been driving a combination of a lot of big motors great distances for years. One of the things I like about going on long, varied types of road trips, with all types of terrain, grades, etc., is what we learn about our cars.

In 1997, Don Bulitta, Art Threan and I, along with many other BERG Cruisers, drove our highly modified VWs on what was for Don and I a 5200 mile road trip.  We left Arizona in mid May, temps reaching 107 to 115 degrees and went from Phoenix, through VEGAS and up in to Salt Lake City. From Salt Lake city, after having Art Threan and other west coast cruisers joint us, we went from SLC (about 4500ft high) up over the pass in I80 to an altitude of around 7000+ ft.

From Salt Lake City across the US all the way to Detroit, Michigan (and back) we encountered all types of weather, roads, driving conditions and yes, the occassional blast on the freeway against some unsuspecting kid in a Mustang.  Through this and dozens of other road trips with Don and other friends, we've really learned a lot about driving big motors great distances.  I like to think we helped dispell a lot of myths too about whether bid motors can be reliable, driven great distances and actually even get reasonable mileage, depending upon the weight of the drivers throttle foot.

The beauty of these type forums is we can all learn something from others who have real, practical experience in a lot of different things.  Hopefully, that is what takes place when everyone shares.  There is no "only way" to do things.  What works in some areas may not even be necessary in others. For me, I have to go with what we learn and focus on steady, continuous improvement. That is what continuous improvement is all about.

Rick M

[Torben Alstrup]

I do remember that cruise. And I respected the guys that went on that tour, because they definitely proved that their cars were more than just trailer queens for the mags to shoot. Something which was quite common in that period from my point of view.

T

[rick m]

The cruise was truly one of the highlights of my VW hobby years. Each morning Art, Don and I would look at each other and sarcastically say, "Big motors,...you can't drive them anywhere, they are not dependable and they get terrible mileage". After doing a 5200 mile road trip in all types of weather conditions, we proved our lookers could be driven anywhere. Our goal was to dispell all three myths we had heard about undependable, unreliable, terrible mileage big motors.  I think we stunned a lot of people along the whole route from west to east.

We are looking to do a repeat somewhere soon.  I am finishing up my chop top with a new 2275, bigger cam and more power than the 2110cc motor I drove in 1997. Again, the intent will be to prove driveability, anywhere, anytime, in all weather conditions.  Long live HOT VWs.  Our mantra is "Build them to drive them".

Rick  M

[BeetleBug]

What oil pumps are you guys using?

[Jon]

I agree, but where do you get them?

The closest I have seen them is Unneberg Bil.

[Donny B.]

What oil pumps are you guys using?

Berg 30mm.

[rick m]

I am running the same pump (Berg 30mm) in my new motor with their full flow cover.

Rick M

[fredy66]

modified 26
for my new engine