Head porting...Modern standards

[71CALRIPPER]

Have we become so relaxed with trying new things with heads and also are the heads that CB/BP/JPM provide us do everything we need that we dont push the limit any more..

Take a look at this DDS heads..



http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1065547

Autocraft heads



http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1068559

[BeetleBug]

Are you saying that time has stood still and that it would be better paying 7500 USD for some old school ones?

[71CALRIPPER]

Thats not what I mean, forget the price of those cause they make my EYES bleed  ..

But just  look at the work they have gone through to get the porting and flow they want, most motors I have had used Cb heads with a light clean up..

[ugly duckling]

old school. blood sweat and  . thats what makes this job so gratifying some times. those heads of Deans are Wild!!.  . UD.

[71CALRIPPER]

Jeff I could use those heads at the bottom to bath my stinky feet in....

[TexasTom]

I think with the popular use of CNC porting into our corner of the HP universe, hand-ported heads have certainly become less popular, especially considering the price point. Not to consider the time involved ...
Also, with the popularity of hair driers, edge-of-the-limit ported heads just aren't necessary to make big power ... for them!
So, most current engine builds aren't using the talents & advantages of artists like Jeff, Clyde, Fumio, the Tims and all other greatly talented head porters and designers we have available to us.
Plug and play shopping baskets have replaced their talents in exchange for savings and quick turnarounds.

Personally, I'd LOVE to have a set of those spreadports gracing my engine compartment ...
Jeff, when was the last time you built a pair of those beauties? Talk about exotic!

Remember the steel chambered units EMS did for some Super Street engine back years ago? Wild ... how do they do that???

[Lee.C]

Interesting thread 

I think this statement about sums it up:

"Plug and play shopping baskets have replaced their talents in exchange for savings and quick turnarounds."

Which is a shame because I really like the thought of proper "Man hours" going into an engine

[K-Roc]

I wouldn't say the limits are not being pushed anymore in regards to hand ported heads, The trends today compared to years ago are smaller more efficient port and chamber shapes,different seat angles, valve back angles etc.. Besides the Wedgeport class, which obviously has it's own record holder... Show me a record setting N/A VW that is running CNC heads...

The amazing work you see above by Jeff and Dean (and all the other guru's) paved the way for heads like Superflows, Comp Elims,
Angle flows, MS230's  Etc... to come to life,  Now we have all these great castings to either hand port or CNC...

People enquire all time about hand Ported Vs CNC and I explain it like this,( And don't get me wrong I have used CNC heads on several engine projects myself) But If the CNC head you are looking at has the port cross section and valve sizes and components that matches the Engine size/ RPM requirements for H.P. you need then that is a viable option.
If you are trying to build a combination that is different and may not match up with the sizes of the CNC heads avalable... or "outside the box combination" then the CNC port perhaps may not work for you.

A hand ported head may be the way you need to go to optimize your combination.

When one is price comparing a hand ported set Vs. CNC you should also factor in other cost's for example custom chamber volumes,
manifold port matching, valve spring options and setup,etc, (all things that may be included in the price of a hand ported head but may be an extra cost on the CNC version.

I'm currently running at about a 2-3 month back log for delivery on heads and this hasn't changes for years so I'm sure all the great VW head porters who WANT to stay busy indeed are  

I will close with this thought however, I think the main reason many have switched to purchasing CNC heads over hand ported heads is not the price, it's the fact that they can order a head today and it's shipped tomorrow. Even if one plans several months ahead and does buck up to order a hand ported set they get the "run around" on the delivery time. You only have to get "D$(K'd around once and you probably won't go down that route again. It spoils it for those of us who are up front with thier customers have good communication and "Do what they say they are gonna do"

Thanks for letting me ramble..  K-Roc.

[TexasTom]

Excellent points and detail, K-Roc.

Another point to consider is the withering popularity/participation in pound/cubic-inch race classes.
ProStock has dwindled greatly. Do y'all still run them at all on the west coast?
SuperStreet is still running there, but antwhere else?

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate anyone willing to challenge themselves and their equipment, whatever it may be, to run it all out at the track.
I only had to go back and do it once and I'm ready to build another car!

I think the 'limitation' classes which encourage UNlimitation are the catalyst for creation and 'outside' thinking.
The DDS heads pictured were kindled by this, and most likely the others as well.
Then again, I'd be interested to see the heads on some of the SuperGas cars ... Weiss, Schuerger and others; all run very hard.

Perhaps there is just less demand for limitations to be pushed with reduced numbers in the staging lanes ... ?
I know there are far fewer out where I am .... Hopefully the new NHRA ss/VX class will bring new developments?

[Udo]

Hand porting makes the most power  no matter what head you have. But it is more expensive. CNC is a good choice for good power for a nice price and short delivery time. At this time people like Roger Crawford show us that there is still some work to do and not the end. All we need is time ....

I have done the spread ports (like Jeffs picture shows)ones and that is the most work.. A good idea from Clyde to make these manifolds , i still have one set left and may be some time i make a set for street use :-)

Udo

[JS]

Have we become so relaxed with trying new things with heads and also are the heads that CB/BP/JPM provide us do everything we need that we dont push the limit any more..

Like K-Roc, I believe people like Johannes@JPM has pushed the envelope and is continuing to do so. IMO porting has more to do with design than if the actual work is done by hand or not. And I´m not in any way putting down hand ported heads as they can be works of art, but how big is the market for them today?

You can buy heads over the counter today that can deliver 230 reliable hp. I would suspect hand ported heads that can deliver 240-260 on the same combination would be a lot more expensive? Again, who´s the buyer?

[Udo]

Have we become so relaxed with trying new things with heads and also are the heads that CB/BP/JPM provide us do everything we need that we dont push the limit any more..

Like K-Roc, I believe people like Johannes@JPM has pushed the envelope and is continuing to do so. IMO porting has more to do with design than if the actual work is done by hand or not. And I´m not in any way putting down hand ported heads as they can be works of art, but how big is the market for them today?

You can buy heads over the counter today that can deliver 230 reliable hp. I would suspect hand ported heads that can deliver 240-260 on the same combination would be a lot more expensive? Again, who´s the buyer?

I would say everyone who wants more and better than the others 

Udo

[Lids]

On street cars we use a single spark plug per cylinder, on the aviation air-cooled heads they use twin plugs, are there any advantages in this?

[Lee.C]

On street cars we use a single spark plug per cylinder, on the aviation air-cooled heads they use twin plugs, are there any advantages in this?

I've often wondered about this too - Porsche used it a few times - first on the four cam then later on some 964/993's           
(I think )

I often see "twin plug" type1 style heads come up for sale - Any thoughts

[Martin Greaves]

Twin plugs are to cure rough running at low rpm.

This is what i was told years ago.

[Lids]

Twin plugs are to cure rough running at low rpm.

This is what i was told years ago.

so it would smooth out my 50x47 101x94 fk89 round town

[Martin Greaves]

Twin plugs are to cure rough running at low rpm.

This is what i was told years ago.

so it would smooth out my 50x47 101x94 fk89 round town

Maybe but if you put that together right in the first place it would be ok any way.

[58vw]

like k-roc said...people want to pay you and walk out with the product now...and yes head porters are always backlogged...not only do they have three to four sets of heads to do all the time throw in all the guys that need heads fixed....valve job...etc etc...then those are thrown in the mix and soon your three months then four months and so on and so on...then the bitching starts....

my wonder is the people who need there heads freshened up or repaired when jeff, clyde, tims, k-roc are retired WHO is going to fill the need....

[JS]

On street cars we use a single spark plug per cylinder, on the aviation air-cooled heads they use twin plugs, are there any advantages in this?

Lids, I believe the reason it´s done in aviation is redundancy.

[71CALRIPPER]

like k-roc said...people want to pay you and walk out with the product now...and yes head porters are always backlogged...not only do they have three to four sets of heads to do all the time throw in all the guys that need heads fixed....valve job...etc etc...then those are thrown in the mix and soon your three months then four months and so on and so on...then the bitching starts....

my wonder is the people who need there heads freshened up or repaired when jeff, clyde, tims, k-roc are retired WHO is going to fill the need....

Better get Jeff a bright eyed student to teach the art too.....

[Fastbrit]

Twin-plug set-ups on an aircraft form part of two separate ignition systems (twin magnetos, two sets of plugs, etc) so that should one system fail, the other will allow the engine to run. Before you take off in a light aircraft with twin magnetos, you always carry out a 'mag drop' test: watch the engine rpm as you shut off first one and then the other magneto. If all is well, the engine rpm will drop slightly by exactly the same amount in each case, showing that both systems are working OK. The rpm drop is because fuel is being burnt less efficiently on just one plug...

On a car engine, twin plugs result in a cleaner burn, primarily allowing the engine to run more cam overlap without wasting fuel.

[Brandon Sinclair]

Contact Greg Ward about running dual plugs...
http://www.cal-look.com/forum/cal-look-high-performance/hillclimb-not-drag-racing-but-lots-of-fun/
http://www.cal-look.com/forum/cal-look-high-performance/2332-or-1915/

and Bugpatch does do machine work to add twin plugs to the heads..
http://bugpatch.com/MachineWorkPricing/MachineWorkPricingPage1/tabid/73/Default.aspx

[Udo]

Engine plus in germany adds a plug to their type 4 heads if wanted. I hope we can do a test on the dyno this year with 4 and 8 spark plugs..

Udo

[Udo]

like k-roc said...people want to pay you and walk out with the product now...and yes head porters are always backlogged...not only do they have three to four sets of heads to do all the time throw in all the guys that need heads fixed....valve job...etc etc...then those are thrown in the mix and soon your three months then four months and so on and so on...then the bitching starts....

my wonder is the people who need there heads freshened up or repaired when jeff, clyde, tims, k-roc are retired WHO is going to fill the need....

 clyde has a son  May be in 20 years there are only brasil and chinese heads avaliable and they are so cheap that it is not worth to do a freshend up 

[nicolas]

and if a car has a failure with the ignition it is likely to fall from less height...

and headporting will pay off in the longrun, if done corretly and with experience.
i do agree that a lot more is known now about the heads from yesteryear, but i am sure that there is that little 'edge' to be found now as well. but not talked about since it still is in some way a competition thing. like it was said in more then one post above.

as an extra thought i have to say that i am not the most enthousiastic about some handported heads out there (especially if you run something that is not top of the line, but i think they come close or equal the CNC heads as i suspect them to be made with some sort of template as well. because that is all what a CNC head is...
 
But if you go through the 'trouble' of getting the right head for the right combo i am sure good things happen.

[lawrence]

Breaker Breaker, the fact that VWs are not the current, popular trend is my guess as to why there are not many companies spending time and money on research and development. Cost of labor and materials only increases, especially with handmade products, and some horsepower seekers are not willing to pay this price. The great companies who have been around for some time, are actively involved with the hobby and put out a quality product will have a loyal customer base.

CNC heads were not very common when I built my engine, but I see how they are very convenient for racers who are constantly busting parts and need an exact copy in a short amount of time in order to get back on the race track. The advise I was given by others, with more engine building experience than myself, was that money is never wasted on cylinder head work. Head porters have a vast amount of knowledge and will consider the engine as an assembly. Anyone can open a magazine or catalog and order a set of heads in order to make some desired power number. It is a totally different experience dealing with the machinist, discussing motor intentions, bouncing ideas back and forth and then sending all the pennies in exchange for something that was created for a specific purpose. This must be how it was done in the early cal-look days and that is pretty cool. Anyways, good thread topic.

[Catbox]

This is an excellent thread topic for me as I am currently saving my pennys for a quality product.

I am building a 2332 for my daily and am looking forward to chatting up the custom head ported on the other end of the phone.

I dont want the same thing as the next guy, I wanna hold myself to a higher standard....

 

[fredy66]

I'm looking in to heads at the moment too and what i find intresting is that many of the machine shops and head porters have  4  5 heads to pick from.
and i have mailed some of the companies and what i get is pick one of the heads we have no recomends to what i 'm trying to do.
looks like I'm ending up getting some 42 37 heads.
and is there any good place to get heads in EU ??
taxes and posting costs are killing me

[71CALRIPPER]

EU head ports...

I only know a few

Udo
JPM
JMR
Cant remember who WPS uses?

I think alot can be down to how well you get on with the porter, I like being able to call Jeff up and give him shit for no reason ( sorry Jeff ) and his relaxed voice just chills me out. haha

[Udo]

I'm looking in to heads at the moment too and what i find intresting is that many of the machine shops and head porters have  4  5 heads to pick from.
and i have mailed some of the companies and what i get is pick one of the heads we have no recomends to what i 'm trying to do

It depends on engine size and what you want to do . This makes the difference in what head you need . But a lot of peaople have different experiense

Udo