Weird Gearbox / Driveshaft / hub knocking noise and movement ??

[Shane Noone]

Hey guys any of you come across this before or similar ?? The gearbox is pro-built with close gears,HD short axles,Quaife ATB.

I have put maybe 1000-1500 road miles on her powered by a lowly 34bhp motor whilst waiting for my 2332 motor and their hasn't been any noticeable noise until recently.The noise is loud and knocking like a hammer peening against metal and is only heard when the car makes a turn,either left or right and navigating roundabouts ( road islands ) and never when driven in a straight line ?? At first I presumed it was the ATB so I asked the guy who built it for advice and he asked me to remove the box and get it over to his workshop.Prior to removal I decided to check everything I could think of for excessive movement and take measurements.I discovered a play on both rear hubs when rocking the wheel top to bottom you could see the rear hub / brake drum move although everything was tight.The movement was much more noticeable on one side RH rear.So I thought this was sufficient to cause the noise and removed that drum to check bearing cap wasn't loose etc.Everything looked good.I measured axle splines for depth and uniformity compared the the opposite side and all seemed the same.I switched drums from side to side too but the excessive play stayed on the same side.I even ordered a brand new repro drum from VW heritage ( wide 5 ) and exactly the same.I showed the play to the gearbox builder and he said it was very odd and hadn't come across this before but remembered early porsche's had a problem like this where the bearing retainer cap didn't support the bearing sufficiently and this could be a problem with early VW boxes with short axles He also thought the brake drum was fouling the brake shoes too due to a score mark inside the drum so he machined the drum and machined the bearing cap ? and installed new bearings.He told me the problem was resolved so I have re-installed the gearbox bolted up the wheels and the movement is still there ,still as much only now appears to have moved 90 dergress clockwise and become side to side play Any Ideas and advice appreciated.Thanks.

[tonybone]

Hey bud
Good on ya to get this on the forum ! It's kinda strange that now the hub movement has moved from side to side from up and down ??
I'm guessing the knock is still there right ? On corners as before when I drove the car ? Funny that day that the knock did not come until the oil was up to temp ??
Hope someone on here can help! Otherwise the box may blow quickly once that big motor is bolted in!
Hope u get ur motor soon bud coz u been waiting ages for it !!

[Lee.C]

I know it sounds silly but are you sure the hub nuts are actually STAYING tight 

I had a similar problem with my old manx a while back - When I MOT'd it the guy noticed MASSIVE play in the n/s rear bearing/hub, Hmmm that odd I thought as I had only just refitted the drums, So we removed the split pin tightened it all up with a BIG bar and all SEEMED ok until I got it home and noticed a knocking from the rear end, And sure enough the bearing/hub had play again 

Once I removed the split pin and hub nut again - Retightened it - fitted the split pin and checked for play - NONE  So I took it for a quick blast round the block came back and rechecked it - PLAY AGAIN  In the end I traced the problem down to a DAMAGED axle thread, It would tighten up no problem BUT as soon as you drove the car putting any kind of load on it - it just couldn't cope witht he strain/force - with VERY carefull use of a thread file I just about managed to save it along with the use of a brand new hub nut 

[Shane Noone]

Hey Tone,good to hear the bug scene is growing round Phuket.You better hone those motor building skills up then and put the "hot" into those hot veedubs,ha ha.
Seriously though this gearbox issue is a mystery and yeah your right it did seem to be more noticeable when we had cruised a few blocks and things had warmed up.Maybe that was coincidence though huh ??
Yeah still waiting for my 2332 to get finished and dyno'd mate,only been what 3 years and two months now since my order went in.......anyway latest word verbal promise is I should have the motor by the end of this month,so watch this space.

Hey Monkiboy,thanks for your reply.Initially I too thought about loosening axle nuts due to spline wear etc as a friend of mine suffered same sort of problems you describe.However axle nuts are staying tight and the play is there with without bug being driven,simply gearbox reinstalled,axle nuts torqued in excess of 200 ft/lbs and play checked for and observed with bug back up on axle stands.Thanks for the suggestion though because if could have been that alright.

Anyone else got any thoughts ?? much appreciated.

[kingsburgphil]

Sounds familiar, I had excessive up & down play (camber change) in the rear wheels. We found wear at the spade end of the axles and wear inside the
aluminum spool causing the excessive play and noise upon inspection. Unfortunately, I never heard any knocking sounds with all the other racket going
on while driving.

[Taylor]

sounds to me like the axle is moving. This explains all of the symptoms... I.E. no noise in a straight, clunking/banging in turns and play in the drum.  Now the only thing that would let this happen if everything else was as it should be in my opinion is the inner spacer.  It is located behind the axle bearing. 

number #5 in the picture.........

maybe??

[Diederick/DVK]

you might be right on the spot, taylor! i've heard that before.

[Fastbrit]

Good point Taylor – don't forget, that spacer only goes on one way round, too.

[Jesse/DVK]

Exact same problem as I had! We forgot the spacer behind the bearing (as Keith and Taylor point out). Better check if the axles are still ok in the diff to because my axles got chewed up..

Good luck!

[Shane Noone]

Hey guys thank you very much for all your advice.I will check out the spacer behind the bearing scenario.Wouldn't you think the professional gearbox builder who built this box for me and has had it back twice now for separate issues to resolve would know this and at least look for it and check it.I mean you pay a guy a lot of money to build a gearbox you don't expect hassles right and this box hasn't seen any work yet and the builder in question is very highly regarded here in the UK and I had to pay him extra both times to take a look at it and the latest issue remains.What happened to customer service and satisfaction eh.....anyway moan over,I'll just have to get on it myself :/

[Jon]

Could be that you have the wrong bearing holder combined with to fat brake plates, enabling the bearing to move.
I guess you put the plates on there? Just thinking out loud

[tonybone]

Guys
I'm hearing this any yes possible !
If the inner spacer is missing them am I correct in thinking that the axle/ hub would move in and out of the axle tube ??
This would be more evident in the corners as the side loads and thrust increase and decrease from side to side as you swing the car around those roundabouts etc.
Shane get in there this weekend and take a look !
Any news on that long overdue engine ?? It's crazy that u. Been waiting and outa pocket for so long !! I'm glad this guy does not build my motors !!!!
Stay cool
Tony

[Bruce]

..... nuts torqued in excess of 200 ft/lbs .....

That's not enough torque.  Spec is 250, you can go more.

[Taylor]

..... nuts torqued in excess of 200 ft/lbs .....

That's not enough torque.  Spec is 250, you can go more.

should it be torqued to more than 200#s? yes   
Is torquing it to over 200#s (with cotter pin in place) enough to keep it from having play? also yes


Either way when you pull the drum look at the face, the splines and the back side to see if they have been worn, worked, damaged or beatin up in any way.....

My money is still on the inner spacer!!!!!!

[Shane Noone]

Hey guys just to give you all an update on my situation and for anyone else who is following this thread with interest.....
Today i took a day off work and out on my driveway stripped the problem side right back to the axle tube to look for the spacer behind the rear bearing as has been suggested by a few of you.Ok well the spacer is definetly there and appears to be fitted the right way round too,ie the chamfered side in to the tube and the flatter face against the bearing.Everything appeared to be as it should and where it should be,so I put it all back together and re-torqued axle nuts to somewhere over 200 ft/lbs ( thats as far as my wrench goes ) using the 3/4 bar and long steel tube as suggested so I would say it is more likley to be around 250 ft/lbs now.
The only oddity that I could see was according to the manual the rear bearing is supposed to be removed with the aid of a puller and refitted using a press ??
I was able to very lightly drift the bearing out and re-install and seat home by hand ??

Anyway I have also spoken to the guy who built my gearbox as this thread was brought to his attention and he was dissapointed that I didn't inform him that the problem remained and give him a chance to have another look at fixing it for me, instead I chose to post on here for help / ideas and let off some steam by having a whinge about him ( in retrospect not the best way to handle things but I guess we all get a little vexed and frustrated at times especially those of us that don't have the skills and tools and workshops to build gearboxes and motors ourselves but rely on paying others to do it for us and then getting mixed results.) So apologies for upsetting and offending anyone and the outcome is, he has suggested I let him take another look at the problem to which I have said ok.Now I just have to pull out the gearbox again................................wish me luck guys.