Other cam? 2175cc

[Jesse/DVK]

I'm currently upgrading my 1915cc tot a 2178cc. These are the parts I have.

2175cc / AS41 case / 78.4mm DPR counterweighted Crankshaft / Scat 5.4” I-Beam rods / Mahle 94mm pistons and cylinders / Engle FK-8 with CB Straight cut gears / CB lightweight lifters / Lightweight HD aluminium pushrods / 1.4 rockers / Steve Tims Stage 2 Plus 043 welded heads with 42×37.5 / Weber 48IDA carbs on CB Big Beef manifolds and Gene Berg linkage / Magnaspark 2 Ignition / A1 1 3/4” merged header with A1 turbo muffler / Lightened 200mm flywheel with Kennedy stage 2 pressure plate and Daiken clutch / Schadek 26mm oilpump with Gene Berg cover / Gene Berg 4Qt sump / Gene Berg Traction bar

The cam is from my 1915cc engine and I planned to use it again but also looking at a web 86c and maybe even a raptor cam.

How would a 86c differ from a FK-8 powerwise and how it handles on the street? And also compared to the raptor cam?

It's a street/strip 64 beetle with a 4.12 - 3.78, 2.08, 1.44 1.04 gearbox.

[Jim Ratto]

what compression ratio will you run?

[TexasTom]

You really should consult Johannes for the Raptor recommendation. He will taylor the cam choice to your desired use/power preferences AND engine combination. It's the best choice available.
Not to mention, you'd likely be able to use near all your existing components, maybe change to his spring retainers ... !

As for the FK8 to 86C jump, it will be a huge difference, especially in top end performance ... will pull hard from 4000 to 8K plus. You will need different pushrods and valve springs, most likely.
You can drive it easy or HARD, but there will be some loss down low. The more compression you use, the more snap it will have.
I think it'd work great with your gearbox.

Just got back from a store/fuel run ... nothing like melting them down in 2nd and pulling 3rd gear rubber merging on the highway! WHEW!
I mean, ummm ... it performed admirably during the errand and was an enjoyable experience, Officer. Ahem!

[Jim Ratto]

I have run the 86C in my own car twice now, once in the 2276 from 1998 that went 12.66 @ Carlsbad with 40mm chokes and pump gas, and now with my 94 x 78, 9.8:1, 40mm chokes, pump gas.
My impressions of the cam in both motors are much like Texas Tom mentioned, you can drive it like a "normal" car or you can rip the seat rails off the pan (quote from my ex boss when he drove my 86C 2276 in 1998). It's a very hard cam, that you can drive. Every motor I have built with it (for others) has given same results and when I drove Bill S.' car, same thing, you could ease around like an old lady without any sluggishness or protest under 3000rpm. With gears it will work that much better. What I love about the 86C is either coming into a 2nd gear corner, getting car around and through and then opening it up. Or getting on the freeway here in So Cal, you begin off ramp in 2nd gear, stomp it, 7200, shift, into third up to 6800, then BRAKE so you don't run over the traffic in slower lanes, click it into fourth and let it sit @ 4200, right were it goes from being a lamb and becoming a lion. Want to pass 3 or 4 cars @ 85mph? Just tip into the throttles and you're gone.
In my 22 years of trying cams in VW's I've only run 2 cams that were "undriveable" on the street: VZ35 and Clay Smith 320. Even the FK87 did fine in my 74mm thing.
The K8 in the 1915cc is a hard characteristic to duplicate, to me it's kind of a match made in heaven. In order to get same powerband characteristics once you stroke a VW, you need to dial in more overlap. No way around that.
Pauter R6E8 runs well too with 1.25's

[fredy66]

any more info on the 78 94 enggine ?

[Jesse/DVK]

what compression ratio will you run?

Chambers are 53cc and I planned on running zero deck with a 1mm copperhead shim. Should be around 9.7:1.

Thanks for all the replies! 86c sounds like a really nice cam! Also contacted JPM for their advice.

What springs are recommended for the 86c? Is notching of the pistons required? And are CB lightweight lifters ok to use with webcam?

[wolfswest]

you got pb... 

[Jesse/DVK]

What springs are recommended for the 86c? Is notching of the pistons required? And are CB lightweight lifters ok to use with webcam?

Anyone?

[TexasTom]

Piston to valve clearance should be OK, but I'd definitely measure it just to make sure. Take nothing for granted.

I'd call Webcam (or CB) to ask about lifter compatability.

I run Berg dual springs. The 86C is right on the ragged edge of Chevy springs, but I've had good luck over the years with high quality duals.
Yet another question Webcam could answer for you.
TxT

[Jim Ratto]

Jesse, I am running CB lightweights in my motor, and ran them last time too with Pauter cam (19K miles on that with no pitting). I run Bugpack 4046 springs, each one is shimmed to +.100" bind on each individual lift figure. Came out to 300# open and 165# on seat. I limit rpm to 7K though.
To do over I might look @ those CB 650 springs, but I've used 4046's since 1994 and like them.

[Jesse/DVK]

Thanks Jim, Tom,

I will ask webcam what they recommend.

Any how-to's on shimmings valve springs?

[Jim Ratto]

http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,6122.0.html

 

[Torben Alstrup]

CR is on the low side. At 10,3 it really begins to wake up. At 11-1 its a warrior.

T

[Jesse/DVK]

With my heads a 53cc it's 10.08:1 Is 11:1 possible with 98 octane? As it's kinda hard to get that at the pump nowadays here in the Netherlands.

[Diederick/DVK]

won't you have more overlap with an 86C and thus a lower dynamic CR, allowing you to raise the static CR?

[TexasTom]

I raised mine to 10.55:1, which calculated to 7.54:1 dynamic; 48cc chambers.
Torben's right, power increase and response is CRAZY.
Runs on 93 octane pump gas with 30*BTDC total no problem, & cool,

[Zach Gomulka]

How do you calculate dynamic CR?

[TexasTom]

This is the one I use:

http://www.kb-silvolite.com/calc.php?action=comp

pretty straight forward ...

[Torben Alstrup]

At 11 - 1 it runs very well on 98 octane. At 10,3 it´ll run on 95. I thought that you had Shell and Aral stations with 98 octane in the Netherlands ?

T

[Jesse/DVK]

Shell only provides Shell VW-power which is just regular 95 octane with additives.

Aral is hard to find in my neighbourhood.

Thanks!

Jim, when reffering to 4046 springs from bugpack do you mean the chevy style ones? What thickness do the coils have?

[Diederick/DVK]

chevy style = 4046-10, vwparts sell the 4046 but they're not listed on the website.
i'm pretty sure jim was referring to the 4046 VW style.

[ianmac]

JPM cams / parts look awesome, I have switched from FK-87 (which went flat  ) to JPM raptor with 11:1 on a 2276cc street motor, not quite finished I can't wait to drive it speak to Johannes

[neil68]

From my personal experience, both the FK8 and 86C are good camshafts for street driven Beetles and also weekend drag racing.  Certainly the 86C is preferred, if you're more concerned with 1/4-mile ET, whereas the FK8 would be a better choice if street driving was your main priority.

For 1/4-mile racing, switching from the FK8 to 86C got my heavy stock Beetle from the high 13's into the high 12's, higher rpm range, etc.

On the street, wiith IDA's I didn't notice too much difference between the cams, perhaps just a touch rougher idle/low rpm with the 86C, but not enough to annoy me.

I agree, those JPM Raptor cam setups look nice!!

[Jesse/DVK]

Thanks for all the replies guys!

I ordered a 86C and some Thorsten Pieper tool steel lifters .

Any thought on vents for 48 IDA's?? 40mm? 42mm?

Also using Jaycee stacks.

[TexasTom]

I'd experiment with 40mm venturies if maximum performance is your goal ... with street driving in between.
 

[ED2.4]

Hi,
just for sharing my experience too,
i've a 86C with 1.4 rockers on my 2332cc with Brothers VW 043 welded heads in 44X38 valves and Bugpack 4047 springs ,carbs are 48 Drla with 42 mm vents,
push hard 4000 to 6500rpm,and very smooth street driven at low rpm,205hp@5600rpm and 195lbs/ft@5100rpm,
a great cam for sure

[neil68]

Thanks for all the replies guys!

I ordered a 86C and some Thorsten Pieper tool steel lifters .

Any thought on vents for 48 IDA's?? 40mm? 42mm?

Also using Jaycee stacks.

My engine with 86C had IDA's with 42 venturies, 44 x 37 K-Roc heads, Udo Becker tool steel lifters and Jaycee stacks (0lder version).  180.4 HP at the wheels and best ET 12.9 seconds at 104 MPH.  Very smooth on the street as well...

[Jim Ratto]

40mm chokes in my 2276 with Denham sideways wedgeport "Lonnie Reed" heads and 86C and 9.3:1 went 12.66 @ 104 full weight car on pump gas.
40mm will make good power to 7800 with your cc, provided your heads and springs will get you there.

I tried 42mm in my current motor (but with Pauter R6E8) and it really lost it's torque and response almost across the board.

[Jesse/DVK]

How much benefit is there from using 1.5 rockers vs 1.4 rockers on the 86C cam? As i'm about to buy a set of Pauter rockers and they cost the same. Is it expected that the pistons need notching with .050 deckheight? And thinking of Bugpack 4046 or GB 273a springs.

Thanks!

[Udo]

40mm chokes in my 2276 with Denham sideways wedgeport "Lonnie Reed" heads and 86C and 9.3:1 went 12.66 @ 104 full weight car on pump gas.
40mm will make good power to 7800 with your cc, provided your heads and springs will get you there.

I tried 42mm in my current motor (but with Pauter R6E8) and it really lost it's torque and response almost across the board.

Jim
The R6 is a little small for that engine , i would use a bigger pauter cam with 1,4 rockers . so you do not stress the springs too much

Udo