Suspension questions for you pros!!!!

[65bug]

Hey guys,
         Hey, I have a couple of questions. I rebuilt my front end completely a few months back. 65 swing axle bug. New Cb 2 inch narrowed beam, dropped spindles, disk brakes, and kyb G2 shocks. It's low and the front end handles very well. I have not put the stock sway bar back on yet. My first question is this:
1. Will a 3/4 inch sway bar make a huge difference over the stock sway bar? I love the ride right now. For being so low, it rides really nice!
         The next questions is this:
2. Now that the front end is lower then the rear, I can really feel the rear wanting wanting to roll. Would a camber compensator really help this?
    Just want to get a good balance, with keeping the lower in the front stance.

Thank you

[Martin]

have you fitted and castor shims?

[65bug]

Hi Martin,
       Thanks for the reply. Yes, castor shims are in and everything is to spec. I set the toe and what a difference it made!!!!! I still do not have a sway bar on the front end. I am wondering if it's worth it to put a 3/4 inch unit on. Or if the stock one(with new mounting kit) would be fine?
       Also curious if a castor compensator makes a large difference?


Thanks [ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]

[65bug]

Here's a few pics if I can get them to load [ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]

[65bug]

Here's another pic

[Martin]

Hi Martin,
       Thanks for the reply. Yes, castor shims are in and everything is to spec. I set the toe and what a difference it made!!!!! I still do not have a sway bar on the front end. I am wondering if it's worth it to put a 3/4 inch unit on. Or if the stock one(with new mounting kit) would be fine?
       Also curious if a castor compensator makes a large difference?


Thanks [ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]

A sway bar is to reduce body roll in corners, on a stock hight car the center of gravity is higher than yours.

I perosnaly would make sure all the dampers are in good condition and that the rear toe is set correctly. Your local laser alighnment shop can sort this for you.

once that is all sorted and working fine, then you have to asses how much your gona hammer it round the bends as you poke it into a corner (slow in fast out) if you feel the body control isnt as you expected then fit a sway bar, then go and try it again.

later cars were fitted with a Z bars on the rear to help prevent rear wheel tuck, duno if it ever worked as every late modle car ive had never had a fast enough motor in it! but it was fitted for a reason.

if you scared of wheel tuck then you can always fit some limiting straps (cheap option) or fabricate a rear anti roll bar to go with the front anti roll bar (expensive option)

good luck

[65bug]

Martin,
     Thanks for the info! Yes, I have new Bilstein shocks on the rear. From what I can tell, there is only toe in/out to set on the rear. I will have to check the holes in the spring plates. If memory serves me , they are elongated round holes. I will be checking today.
     If I can find the specs for the rear, I can do it myself. The front was not hard to do at all. I will check it out!

Thanks

[Martin]

take my advice, setting up the front is really easy, setting up the back isn't as easy. go to the Laser alinement shop, they can simulate the actual centre line of the car and adjust to suit.

just from my experience.

[qubek]

Martin, anti roll bar at the rear will not help to prevent wheel tuck - it will aggravate the problem. What is needed is a camber compensator.
As for the initial questions:
 - anti roll bar at front - yes. It is there for a reason. On the other hand - there is no reason not to use it. As for the size, personally, I use stock. I'm afraid that with skinny front tires I have, larger one can cause excessive overstearing (but of course, I would have to check and compare to be sure). In a different car, that could be compensated by putting larger anti roll bar at the rear, but we're talking about swing axle Bug, so... .
- camber compensator - I have recently installed one. Unfortunately, I made some other changes to the car at the same time so it's difficult to judge the influence of the bar itself. In my car it allows for the outer wheel to take some positive camber while cornering (I have slight negative camber when the car is stationary, empty), but not excessive. I use CB camber compensator and it's downside is that it pulls the axles down, jacking up the rear end a little bit. If I had a choice I would try the other design (sway-a-way?) which pushes the axles up.
I decided not to use limiting straps. They would cause the inner wheel to lift while cornering and this is not good for handling (nor for the gearbox). Camber compensator allows both wheels to stay in touch with mother earth most of the time.
All in all, the car handles OK like that - for a swing axle beetle with nose down and ass up. I took it for a spin around a race track last weekend and it was fun. I did not feel comfortable enough to try to keep up with BMWs and Escorts though.

[65bug]

Martin,
        Thanks. I will do that. I am sure it needs to be lined up with the front correctly. However, if the frame is straight it should not be a big deal. I am going to make some phone calls and see if i can find some one in So Cal. that specializes in swing axle or older VW's in general.
         I have a 2165 motor in it. I want it all right. The front end made a huge difference.

Thanks

[Martin]

found this on shoptalk..

think qubec is right on the rear anti roll bar..

makes for interesting reading


www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=127619

[65bug]

Martin,
        Great read there on shop talks forum! A lot of things come to mind:


1. When I took my old beam off(it was the original from 1965) I noticed it was bent!!!! Both outer tube ends on both sides! I would have never thought it was bent.

2. Now I know a sway bar is most certainly in order. I may opt for a adjustable unit. Not sure yet. However, at least the stock one will go back on.

3. Camber compensator for sure will be added as well. Seems it too will make a marginal difference.
       
4. I really like the Koni front shocks. I will be trying them out as well.
       I think I will re-read all that info a few more times.

[65bug]

Question:
        Anyone know if Koni's are still available for link pin front ends??


Thanks

[qubek]

They should be. They are listed on koni web page. I guess the best way is to ask them directly, or some major distributor. CSP also have them in their catalog.
I like those shocks and I didn't like KYB GR2s up front. But I'm far from being an expert here.

As for the sway bar - what is a size of your front tires?

[65bug]

Qubek,
     Thanks for the help! Your car is very nice! I love it! My tires are 145's on the front. I am sure the Koni's are not cheap! What differences did you notice between the G2's vs. the Konis? And what sway bar size would you recommend?

Thanks

[qubek]

Thank you.
I did not use Konis and KYBs in the same car, so I don't have a direct comparison.
I (we) used KYBs in my girlfriend's a Beetle with stock suspension. While we ware satisfied with the way rear end worked (and works), the front.... well, the shocks seemed to stiff. You could feel every crack in the tarmac. We switched to cheapest, non-gas Cofaps and it improved the comfort, the "feeling" on the steering wheel and did not impair handling (this also improved, subjectively).
My guess is the reason is that the shock absorbers you can buy are standard units, and are marked as good for a VW Beetle front if the length and the mounts fit. But Bug's front is very light, thus springs are soft and shocks must be adjusted to that. So if I see a catalog with says a given shock fits in front of the Beetle (up to '65) and also in the rear.... My logic says it cannot work well in both situations.
My experience seems to support that but those are just my feelings and I'm not an expert. And please note that road in Poland are often terrible.

As for Konis... they are adjustable and you have to types - softer and stiffer (one used to be red, the other - yellow). Not that I aver change my adjustment

[65bug]

qubek,
     Thanks for the tips! My KYB's are the G2's which are gas charged. I noticed a huge difference in smoothness in the front end after pulling the old shocks off that where shot. It would seem to me that with a lighter front end, shocks pushing down towards the ground(gas filled) would provide for better handling and a smoother ride. Very much so at higher speeds.
      I think I am going to put my stock sway bar back on to start just to note differences. I want it to handle really well, but I have no plans to go balls out at a track yet. Just want a competent handling car on the road to go along with 160-180 hp.
     My bug handled much better before with the front end higher then the rear end!

Thanks