Fk 87 or webcam 86c?

[tezer]

Hi I'm helping a Friend of mine to build his engine!
but we need some help to chose the right camshaft!
it will be a 2165
demello crank 78.4mm
94 piston and cylinders
CB 5.5 super race rods,
1 1/3 merged header
the new super pro heads from CB whit 44-37.5 valves
carb is 45 dellortos later it will be injection whit 45 mm trotthle body's
everything is cerfully balanced,
this is going to be a weekend fun car not a daily driver,hi loves to rev high
but we cant Se to decide what cam to use!
so what will be the best choice for this engine?
fk87 ,web 86c or Anny other suggestions on cams that will be good to this combo!!

[dannyboy]

dunno about the webcam but the fk87 in my car with efi is great revs like mad and is ok around town 

[tezer]

when dos it start to pull hard?3500rpm 4000?

[TexasTom]

Tough choice, those cams are very similar ... the FK87 is easier on the valvetrain and the 86C will likely make a bit more torque. Both will require compression near or over 10:1, better yet 10.5:1 to maximize potential.
I'd likely drop down to an 86B or an FK10, but I am getting older ... LMAO!
Also, if it were mine, I might run a shorter rod ... .02
Good luck with it & make it a screamer!
TxT

[tezer]

yes we have also been thinking on 86B or an FK10
they are more street friendly,but i don't know when they will start to cume off power!
6500 rpm ma by?

yes rods are little bit long,but that what we got so we try to run them and Se how its work!

yes we plan to be between 10.1 or 10.5 to 1 in compression,we have 98 and 99 oktan pump fuel her in europe
so i think it will be OK!

[dannyboy]

 at 4.5 k its really pulling   and made power on dyno to 7.3k if i remeber correctly ill try and find printout 

[javabug]

My car with 86b and 40x35.5 heads is ready to spring at 3k rpm and sees 7k+ often. Gets there quick enough I don't notice if it falls off up there or not. Similarly Maize's 2276 with older wedgeports has about the same success.

HOWEVER

If you can run the compression, and you're experimenting anyhow, might as well try the 86c!

[TexasTom]

My 86C really pulls hard after 3500, but is not exactly soft under that either. The more compression, the better ... 10.5 is GOOD. I take it to 8K+ at the track, but try to maintain. Shift light @ 7500 to be conservative.
By the way, I forgot to mention you will need a larger exhaust if you truly only have 1 1/3"(?) ... more likely 1 5/8".

[RhoadsVW]

Ditto to everything that Texas Tom says. That's exactly what I would run. You do need the the more compression and it would be better with a shorter rod for that crank.  Dave Rhoads

[Jason Foster]

my old motor had 10.7 and I ran an FK10 it started pulling low around 1800 2000  had it on 2 different chassis dynos and it fell off at 6000, might of been valve springs doing that though. This time around I'm going around 11.0 and running an FK46 when it goes together.

[neil68]

FK87: 276 degrees (0.050") and 0.401" lift at cam (0.561" with 1.4's)
86C:  272 degrees (0.050") and 0.391" lift at cam (0.546" with 1.4's)

I really liked the 86C, as it got my heavy street Beetle into the high 12's in the 1/4-mile and was quite smooth in city driving (10.5:1 CR, IDA's, 2332 cc).

[tezer]

neil 68 that was a sweet running car you have!
sounds rely nice!

[tezer]

txt i write wrong on the exhaust it is 1 3/4 not 1 1/3

we are starting to think more around the 86b or fk10 now!
even if it is going to be a weekend warrior the high lift and duration in fk87 and the 86c
is maby not necessary  for us,we plan to have max rpm at 7000 to make the life on the engine little bit
easier!

we have also emailed CB for a cam suggestion but no answer so far!

i also got some suggestions to use  a engle w130 whit 1.25 lifters!
the engle w130 cam we already have new in box whit matching lifters laying in the garage!
but i don't know of this cam will make the best out of the CB heads!

[PH1303]

If you haven't decide what cam to use yet, please consider one of JPM raptor cams. More gentle ramps than any other make, hence less need for high spring force, and thereby less friction heat and longer life for your camshaft thrust bearings.

I've already bought a 86C with 105 lope separation angle, so I will keep that. But if I had the choise today, I would choose one of JPMs grinds.

/Peter 

[TexasTom]

txt i write wrong on the exhaust it is 1 3/4 not 1 1/3

we are starting to think more around the 86b or fk10 now!
even if it is going to be a weekend warrior the high lift and duration in fk87 and the 86c
is maby not necessary  for us,we plan to have max rpm at 7000 to make the life on the engine little bit
easier!

we have also emailed CB for a cam suggestion but no answer so far!

i also got some suggestions to use  a engle w130 whit 1.25 lifters!
the engle w130 cam we already have new in box whit matching lifters laying in the garage!
but i don't know of this cam will make the best out of the CB heads!

1 3/4" exhaust will actually be too big, especially for the 86B or FK10, in my opinion.
And as mentioned, the JPM raptors would definitely be a superior choice. Might be hard to get a recommendation for these heads without knowing flow numbers ... I couldn't find any on their site. Will be interesting to hear what they say ...

[Fast Bug]

1 3/4" exhaust will actually be too big, especially for the 86B or FK10, in my opinion.
And as mentioned, the JPM raptors would definitely be a superior choice. Might be hard to get a recommendation for these heads without knowing flow numbers ... I couldn't find any on their site. Will be interesting to hear what they say ...

044 Super Pro.  44x37.5 valves 94mm Bore

All flow numbers are at 25”

Valve lift
.100- 52.5 cfm
.200- 105 cfm
.300- 148 cfm
.400- 183 cfm
.500- 203 cfm
.600- 210 cfm

Combustion Chamber Volume-66cc
Intake Port Volume-75cc


I would use a Raptor cam or the next best a Webcam

[tezer]

I also have a 1 5/8 merged header that i can put on!

i have a offer to bay a new web 86c for 40 bucks
this is from someone that have given up his stroker build!
so maby i bay this,its a good price i think!

the heads have good flow,it will be fun to try them out and se how they work in real life,
pat at cb sad that this was far superior the mini wedge,and was a much better street/weekend worrier head
then the normal wedge heads!

[BeetleBug]

Interesting indeed.

It has big ports but not as big as the wedgeports. The head flow is.... impressive. Easy 200hp according to the numbers. Big ports in combination with a "lazy" cam and/or low compression usually do not mix very well. And as mentioned before, building a engine in 2011 without a Raptor is... impressive.

BB

[tezer]

yes a Raptor cam would have been the best!
but cant afford this right now!650 bucks for cam and lifter i belive?+ rockers and +++
is little bit out of the price range at the moment!

[valdeisel]

If you haven't decide what cam to use yet, please consider one of JPM raptor cams. More gentle ramps than any other make, hence less need for high spring force, and thereby less friction heat and longer life for your camshaft thrust bearings.

I've already bought a 86C with 105 lope separation angle, so I will keep that. But if I had the choise today, I would choose one of JPMs grinds.

/Peter 

How do you like the 86C with 105 degree lope seperation?

I am THINKING of dropping my FK87 for the 86C w/105 lope angle...

[Jim Ratto]

I have 86C in my car right now, 9.8:1, Clyde Berg 44 x 37, set up 1.5 deg advance, 2165cc, 48IDA with 40mm chokes. It is driven semi daily and runs well, though I did prefer the Pauter cam that was in the car previously (R6E8) and next time the motor comes up for checkup, will most likely get that cam (w/ 1.25) back. The 86C is a bit frenetic for the way I use my car (distance driving) and I hate to think what .580" is going to guides.
But for sheer violent acceleration, and still some driveability, the 86C cam has been one of the best I have run. It was better suited to my 2276 though (late 1990's)

Jim R

[tezer]

Well then the web 86c is on its way to us!
also got a new set of lifters whit it,not bad for 40 bucks!

the webcams have advertised lift whit 1.5 rockers!
whit the more normal 1.4 rockers the lift is 0.546

[neil68]

I ran the bigger Web 226 for a year and was not happy with it (Beetle raced slower at the track, and was not as smooth cruising around town), so I switched back to the previous Web 86C.

Just ran 12.812 seconds at 104 MPH in the 1/4-mile in my heavy street Beetle (2,025 lb with driver), no burn-out on drag radials. My 86C with Scat 1.4's measured out to 0.550" (14 mm), so not too bad on the valve train (unlike the Web 226 which was 0.570" and too rampy).

[brian e]

Slight hijack here, I am wanting to build almost the same engine with the new CB heads.  I will use rebuilt clearanced VW rods instead of the 5.5's, but was thinking about the 86c as well.

What I was wondering is will a set of 44mm IDF's run this engine or are 48's pretty much a requirement??  What if I did the CB update kits with the 38mm vents to my 44's??

Thanks,
Brian

[tezer]

Well we finally put the engine back to gether,but the web cam lost
one lobe during break in,dont rely know why,but this things happends from time to time,now it is a engle fk87
whit engle lifters,raterded 2 degrees and so far so good,im rely impressed whit the super pro heads,did a fluff and buff on them and removed
the lip below valve seats and on chamber side,
drivebilty is good,and it kicks hard when you pass 4000rpm,we have 45 delortos and its make the engine rev past 7000 easy
so whit 44 idfs that is just a little bit smaller would work ok i guess,try it first and after if you are not happy whit performance
then do the cb update kit,if still unhappy then sell them and bay something bigger,its difficult to say it will work for you and give the performance you want
because people have different needs!