oil pressure valves in the case...

[bugnut68]

You must mean .004" for the pump gasket...

I think you are correct... I was pissy the other night and my eyes likely dilated...

[TexasTom]

.104mm = .004"
 

[bugnut68]

.104mm = .004"
 

Or there's that...lol.  That factor completely escaped me, so I was half right... just had the increment wrong.  Ha ha

[TexasTom]

This reminds me of my first big motor ... 2110 with a cast crank and real porsche rods, W125, the first coming of my Fumio heads when they were 40X35 & nonwelded, and 40DCNFs.
Case was purchased used but rebuilt (and align bored) by a Major machine shop in the industry.
At operating temperature, which is most often much warmer than any test stand can induce (no load!), it suffered from low pressure ... light would flicker or just glow.
I "fixed" ( ) the problem by installing a Melling oil pump ... I think that thing could drain the great lakes in a short period of time given the proper intake hose!
This was at least 20 years ago ... make that 25 ...
Eventually and FINALLY when I replaced the case the symtoms disappeared ... along with the Melling.
Never had a problem since!
Live and learn ... turns out, some things you just can't get away from ... "Buy the best and cry once", heard that somewhere before ... hmmmmm

[bugnut68]

Oh I'm a firm believer in buying new whenever possible, but $700 for a new case wasn't viable for me two years ago when I started collecting parts, and it definitely isn't viable now.  I'm hoping at worst case I have to use another case I have in the shop that will have to be bored and stroked, full flowed, yada yada yada... and even there it's a stretch that I can afford to do that. 

[bugnut68]

Another evening of work confirming things that did no good... pump gasket was correct, installed a new one.  Oil pressure relief valve definitely not sticking and the bore/mating surface up in there looked good.  unbolted the filter from the fenderwell to see if maybe one of the stainless hoses is kinked (its not, just made sure).  No changes whatsoever.

My thought is leaning toward trying a larger oil pump.  Yes, I know it's a bandaid fix, but this isn't exactly an engine I expect to get even 50,000 miles out of let alone 100,000 (I'll go bigger well before either of those figures, I'm guessing, lol), so I'm wondering if this would be a temporary fix until I can get another case prepared?

[Jon]

This thread has got me thinking of line boring.
I know that the general consensus and Gene Berg says not to do it. My question now is why? Say you had a brand new case, but the was a issue with the main bearing saddles, if you "fixed" this by going to first oversize, would this case have problems? Or if you wanted to use a type4 main bearing in the middle, would that compromise a new case? Low oil pressure?

Or could it be that old heavily used cases (beat up) have a lot of hidden issues, that the line boring couldn't fix. Meaning it's not the line boring that is the bad guy here... I mean how could it possibly be? With the correct size and the right amount of bearing crush... where do the VW magic escape? 

Just raising a question...

 

[Zach Gomulka]

I bet a bigger pump will get you farther than you think, probably until you have the funds to upgrade.

JHU- Last year, when Gary Berg was living here, I asked him those questions. Back in the day there were a lot of guys doing their own align boring with poor equipment and techniques, this was to avoid that. Also he said, new cases were very CHEAP, and they were trying to sell more. There is nothing wrong with a properly done align bore job, but a new case is always going to be better.

[TexasTom]

Bigger pump? Got me down the road for several years, until I had the funds & made the choice to buy new.
I don't see anything wrong with working with what you have on hand.

[bugnut68]

Bigger pump? Got me down the road for several years, until I had the funds & made the choice to buy new.
I don't see anything wrong with working with what you have on hand.

Good to know... this case, I have no idea of its history.  Its last use was a 1776 in a sandrail or Baja (something sand oriented) and the engine came apart after a rocker arm shaft clip came off and went through the motor.  The case itself itsn't cracked or visibly damaged in any way, just been gone through a number of times on the align boring, apparently.  I think for now I'm going to take the bigger (30mm) pump route as a temporary measure so I can get some resources in order to get another case prepped.  I have a case in the shop right now, a 1600 out of a Type 3, that I plan to tear down and take a look at.  It came out of a buddy's baja as the flywheel was fouled up (came loose, dowel pin holes elongated) but looks fine.  No external cracks that I can see, but a good thorough inspection is needed, of course.
Just out of curiosity, how do you measure oil pump gear sizes? is it the width of the gear looking at it from the rear of the car or is it the depth of the gear as it sits inside the pump housing (tooth overall length)?

[TexasTom]

Depth into the pump housing ...

[bugnut68]

Depth into the pump housing ...

Gotcha, something I've always wanted to know, thanks!

[Felix/DFL]

The only thing I've changed since putting the engine in the car, in hindsight, is the oil lines; I had rubber lines on the stand, and installed stainless lines (they're not kinked) once the engine went into the car.  I don't know what factor this could play, but highly doubt the stainless lines are too small in diameter.

Just for a try... Unnconect the stainless lines and make a small rubber hose pump OUT to case IN.Or maybe the one you were using on the stand?
And what do you mean by too small in diameter?

If the lines are long & thin, and you have other flow restricted elements in our "car oil system", that will affect pressure in the case.
Remeber the pump does not make a pressure, the pressure is an affect of the restrict in the case.
But if the flow is restricted at the way to the case, the pressure is higher near the pump and lower in the case.

Always blue print the axial play of every oil pump. If you don`t want to drive at -20° make the axial play tight.
For me the easiest way to do that is to mount the pump together outside the case with the gasket and cover you want to use.
Grind down the pumpcase on a flat glass (mount,check,disassemble---again...) until you can feel just a minimal axial play of the driveshaft.
Remember that the pumpcase (aluminum) grows way more under heat that the pump gear (sinter-steel) so that the axial play grows when the case/pump heat goes up.
Too much axial play affects the oil flow highly. Then you have an internal leckage in the pump...Same thing with to much head play of the gear to the pumpcase.

[stealth67vw]

Ryan, I have an extra brand new Berg blueprinted 30mm Shadek. It's hard anodized, o-ringed and plugged for full flow. I mocked it up on my 2165 but went to a 26mm pump. I'll give you a good deal on it.

Same as this one:
http://www.geneberg.com/product_info.php?cPath=5_121_2738&products_id=405

[bugnut68]

I have a line on a pump already, but I'll let you know, John!  Thanks for thinking of me!  I've got one more little thing to check requiring my sump be removed before I delve into a bigger pump, but will keep you posted.

[bugnut68]

Well, went through both relief valves today... removed the sump so I could get to the flywheel oil pressure control valve, actually resurfaced the seating surface for the valve with the reamer I got from aircooled.net a few years ago, cleaned up the sump, put everything back together, filled it with oil, fired her up and... zero change.

I'm taking a break to get a bite to eat and let the car cool before trying to bypass the oil filter, but I have serious doubts that will make a lick of difference.  I hedged my bets on the oil pressure control valve either sticking open or the spring being too weak, but nothing's changed.

[Nico86]

Can it change something if you replace the springs? 
Do you have an oil pump cover with pressure relief valve?

[bugnut68]

Can it change something if you replace the springs? 
Do you have an oil pump cover with pressure relief valve?

I have no idea... I just came from the shop, bypassing the filter did nothing to affect oil pressure, either.

As for the oil pump cover, it's a bugpack billet aluminum one, no pressure relief valve.  I had one on my last engine and while I had no issues with it per say, I also didn't see any particular benefits from it to make it a worthwhile investment (I never drive this car when it's extremely cold out, only in warmer weather). 

[bugnut68]

Other points to make: PSI still at 25 at dead cold, warming up.  Steadily dropped down to 5 to 10 PSI as the engine got warmer, and at last check it was right on 5 PSI at the gauge before I shut the engine off.  Revving the engine, oil pressure rose to 35 to 40 PSI, but never went any higher as I increased revs.  Don't have a functional tach, so I can't report on what max RPMs I brought the engine to.

Oil is 15W-40 Delo with Lucas ZDDP additive.

[Jim Ratto]

what's the tension @ loaded height on flywheel side sping in your motor?

[Airspeed]

Oil is 15W-40 Delo with Lucas ZDDP additive.

Why don't you just use the tried and tested 20W50 oil with the right amount of ZDDP already in it? (there are several choices today for oils with the correct amount)
Or even better: 15W50 if yu can find that near you.
Definately will keep better oil pressure hot.

[bugnut68]

Oil is 15W-40 Delo with Lucas ZDDP additive.

Why don't you just use the tried and tested 20W50 oil with the right amount of ZDDP already in it? (there are several choices today for oils with the correct amount)
Or even better: 15W50 if yu can find that near you.
Definately will keep better oil pressure hot.

I went with what I did because of availability.. .I live in the middle of BFE where anything even remotely specialty (like Brad Penn oil, for instance, among others) isn't heard of, let alone available. I had to special order the Lucas additive as it was at $14 per bottle.

Jim, I have no idea what the loaded tension on the spring is, I don't have a spring tester available to me... again, largely due to where I live.

[Jim Ratto]

Ryan let me see if I have a good known front spring and I will send one to you. If yours is "soft" it can affect oil pressure.

[bugnut68]

Ryan let me see if I have a good known front spring and I will send one to you. If yours is "soft" it can affect oil pressure.

I know the installed length is correct, from what measurements i took, but that's about all I know. I did notice that the plug installed without a whole lot of tension versus the rear plug? It was that way with two different springs I tried, though.

[Zach Gomulka]

Ryan let me see if I have a good known front spring and I will send one to you. If yours is "soft" it can affect oil pressure.

I know the installed length is correct, from what measurements i took, but that's about all I know. I did notice that the plug installed without a whole lot of tension versus the rear plug? It was that way with two different springs I tried, though.

Mine was the same way. Using all original parts.

[Felix/DFL]

I have no idea... I just came from the shop, bypassing the filter did nothing to affect oil pressure, either.

As for the oil pump cover, it's a bugpack billet aluminum one, no pressure relief valve.  I had one on my last engine and while I had no issues with it per say, I also didn't see any particular benefits from it to make it a worthwhile investment (I never drive this car when it's extremely cold out, only in warmer weather). 

as you bypassed the filter did you still use the stainless lines?

Pull the oil pump and see what`s going on in there, maybe the gear is loose on the shaft or the gears melted into the pump housing.

You are using the orig. regulator piston,or?
The aftermarket one`s are scrap as they are way to little in diameter...

[bugnut68]

I have no idea... I just came from the shop, bypassing the filter did nothing to affect oil pressure, either.

As for the oil pump cover, it's a bugpack billet aluminum one, no pressure relief valve.  I had one on my last engine and while I had no issues with it per say, I also didn't see any particular benefits from it to make it a worthwhile investment (I never drive this car when it's extremely cold out, only in warmer weather). 

as you bypassed the filter did you still use the stainless lines?

Pull the oil pump and see what`s going on in there, maybe the gear is loose on the shaft or the gears melted into the pump housing.

You are using the orig. regulator piston,or?
The aftermarket one`s are scrap as they are way to little in diameter...

I did not use the stainless line for the bypass, I used one of the rubber lines that was on the engine when it was on the test stand.  OIl lines are not going to make a difference at this point, I have determined this from my tests thus far.  I did check the gears when I changed out the pump cover gasket, all looked fine in there.
Yes, original pressure relief pistons.

[bugnut68]

30mm oil pump and oil booster kit have been ordered, should arrive sometime this week... will try these things one at a time to see if a change is made. I'm pretty sure my pump's not sucking air on the suction side, as it was a nice snug fit in the case, not loosey goosey... though I haven't made a formal measurement as of yet.

[Jon]

If it can suck air, it will only suck air... in my experience.

[Peter]

I am having the same problem on my motor...
the oil pressure in the previous form of my motor was about 0.5 bar hot idle ant went to 3 bar max when rpms increased...
All parts looked OK during teardown, so i didnt think it could be a problem... but then i hear about pressures of 3 to 6 bars....
Now i installed a turbo so an oil pressure of 0.5 bar or less isnt really good for the turbo...
I installed a adjustable booster kit, but when increasing spring pressure, oil pressure dropped! (i installed the adjuster beneath the long spring, pulley side)
I used aftermarket plunjers, and original springs from the beginning. Original plunjers are too big for the holes in the case, so they dont fit...
I will try to use the springs from the booster kit next (stiffer springs)

What puzzles me is how can the pressure drop when you increase tension of the big spring?
I also swapped the grooved plunjer for a non grooved (is this OK??)

And Also: Isnt the big spring and plunjer only effective for a hot motor? I would guess its better to mount the adjuster beneath the short spring (flywheel side), because this side is ultimately responsible for oil pressure , correct?

A few other items to think about..