wbx watercoat removal

[vintagewagenwerks]

After many ideas what kind of engine i will build ,i saw sörens engine based on wbx ,now i can have a wbx 2.1 case that is restored.So have anyone experience with change the wbx engine into an oxyboxer,what things have to be changed and so on .
My biggest question is to remove the watercoat and waterpump housing .My idea is to cut the coat by ann angle grinder an the rest will be miled by hand ,yesterday someone told me angle grinder can be done for the raw work after that you need cnc porter works to do it right.

I also know the case needs to be drilled for normally pushrods he have done this for porsche 356 pushrods.

sören told me that the oxy case is very strong also for big bore that seems very interesting for me.

when some would share his experience about this i would be glad.

best regards martin

[Type1/DVK]

to me it think.. let the work be done by someone who has done this many times, you pay some bucks but it will be worth and there is no better start then with a good case. Good luck

[max2919]

My biggest question is to remove the watercoat and waterpump housing .My idea is to cut the coat by an angle grinder an the rest will be miled by hand ,yesterday someone told me angle grinder can be done for the raw work after that you need cnc porter works to do it right.

I also know the case needs to be drilled for normally pushrods he have done this for porsche 356 pushrods.
 

I cut the watercoat with an anglegrinder then I had the case decked.
The WBX has T4 lifters, the lifter bores needs to be sleeved for T1 lifters.
Use a oil-filteradapter on the filter boss for a oilcooler and oilfilter.
Don't forget that T1 heads don't fit, WBX has the same boltspace like Autocraft 4", A/F 4" and a few more high dollar heads.
There are guys that use offsett casesavers to get T1 heads to fit.
T1 cam drops in and large stroker cranks (84mm) with Chevy H-rods drops in also. I have a 90mm crank that in it, no "big" problem to make it fit.

/Max





 

[Donny B.]

You might want to check out this web site:

http://rockyjennings.com/

[RMS Boxer Service]

I have made the engine that Sören has in the Ultra Rat. I build it for the previous owner Peter Bang.
There are several issues in the process of converting a WBX to an Oxyboxer, cutting of the water
jackets are the easiest job in the process. It took me appx 2 hours in a Brigdeport mill to remove
the water jackets.  Lifter bores needs to be cut to the right hight to clear type one liftersand the
needs to be sleeved. Cylinder spigot bores needs to be opened up to accept 4" cylinders or kept as is
and 94 mm cylinders needs to be machined to fit the larger width of the Oxyboxer compared to type 1.

Case savers are allway needed even when keeping the stock stud pattern because threads in the case
are 12x1,5 and most studs are 8x1,25 or 10x1,5mm. Next up is cylinderhead stud pattern. Stock WBX
stud pattern is easy to do (just case savers) but require very expensive heads. Type 1 stud pattern requires
a lot more work in the case and ofset case savers are not good for race engines and can only be done with
8 mm head studs.

I am doing two WBX to Oxyboxer conversions right now and there's a lot of hours in them before they are
finnished and ready.

/Rolf
RMS Boxer Service
Denmark

[vintagewagenwerks]

thank you for your replies till yet.On the Rocky jennings side are good informations detailed in pics too.

@ Callok 67 thanks for your info it makes my knowledge much bigger of the conversion.Are you coming to ddd9 ,then we can talk about a little bit at sörens car.

[Nick]

Case savers are allway needed even when keeping the stock stud pattern because threads in the case
are 12x1,5 and most studs are 8x1,25 or 10x1,5mm.

Why don't you use the stock WBX Studs ? In my opinion they're great. Too short for longer Strokes, or what is the reason ?

Thanks,

Nick

[karl h]

i have used stock wbx studs, but they are a bit short and dont fit every application
i have found it difficult on some cases to remove the headstuds. they are in the cooling water when run in a stock application, so they oxidize with the aliuminium of the block.
what i did is spot face the broken studs an drill them for 8mm type1 studs, sorta like a case saver [ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]

[dangerous]

Lots of good reading here:

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewforum.php?f=37

I did my first conversion in 1995 but kept the WBX stud pattern and re- drilled the heads.
It worked very well that way.
Mine had a 90mm crank in there with very little clearancing,(roof and snrubs only)
except for the cam, which I made a steel billet to improve strength where it was thin between the lobes.

Also, I stopped about 10mm short when cutting back the water jacket to leave a strengthening rib all the way around.

[Stripped66]

FWIW,

Type 1 stud pattern requires a lot more work in the case and ofset case savers are not good for race engines and can only be done with 8 mm head studs.

Use a solid steel insert, and drill and tap the threads to the Type 1 stud pattern after the insert has been threaded/loc-tite'd into the case. 10mm studs are not an issue, holding the power is not an issue.

[Udo]

thank you for your replies till yet.On the Rocky jennings side are good informations detailed in pics too.

@ Callok 67 thanks for your info it makes my knowledge much bigger of the conversion.Are you coming to ddd9 ,then we can talk about a little bit at sörens car.

I have a set of 96mm piston and Type4 cylinders for a waterboxer case . if you need something like that cantact me

Udo

[RMS Boxer Service]

FWIW,

Type 1 stud pattern requires a lot more work in the case and offset case savers are not good for race engines and can only be done with 8 mm head studs.

Use a solid steel insert, and drill and tap the threads to the Type 1 stud pattern after the insert has been threaded/loc-tite'd into the case. 10mm studs are not an issue, holding the power is not an issue.

But if 10 mm studs are going to be used then the case stud threads needs to be open up to M16x1,5 mm threads, otherwise you can't make stock type 1 stud patten without cutting threads beyond the steel inserts and into the softer case. Making bigger threads for the inserts can be done and it's not a difficult task, but it needs to be
done and takes time. I know some people are drilling and tapping cases to as near as possible type 1 pattern but studs will not be perpendicular to the case and heads. Might work for some but I would NOT recommend it.


/Rolf

[Stripped66]

But if 10 mm studs are going to be used then the case stud threads needs to be open up to M16x1,5 mm threads, otherwise you can't make stock type 1 stud patten without cutting threads beyond the steel inserts and into the softer case. Making bigger threads for the inserts can be done and it's not a difficult task, but it needs to be done and takes time.

Do it the right way.

[RMS Boxer Service]

But if 10 mm studs are going to be used then the case stud threads needs to be open up to M16x1,5 mm threads, otherwise you can't make stock type 1 stud patten without cutting threads beyond the steel inserts and into the softer case. Making bigger threads for the inserts can be done and it's not a difficult task, but it needs to be done and takes time.

Do it the right way.

YES this is the right way !!!  I thought you meant that 10 mm studs could be fitted with inserts using the stock m12x1,5 threads i the case   My mistake.

/Rolf

[Udo]

But if 10 mm studs are going to be used then the case stud threads needs to be open up to M16x1,5 mm threads, otherwise you can't make stock type 1 stud patten without cutting threads beyond the steel inserts and into the softer case. Making bigger threads for the inserts can be done and it's not a difficult task, but it needs to be done and takes time.

Do it the right way.

Why don't you use the advantage of the bigger bolt plattern ? The heads for this is not the problem

Udo

[-Alex-]

What is the correct headstud pattern of WBX?    Does anybody have accurate dimensions?  From various sites, i have educated guesses that its about 83x88mm...or 88x83mm.
I need these measurements fo 101.6 LN engineering cyl order.

[Stripped66]

Why don't you use the advantage of the bigger bolt plattern ? The heads for this is not the problem

Udo

Hindsight is 20/20. When I ordered the case, there were no 4" bore heads available that were suitable for a daily-driver in the summer heat of Las Vegas.

[ED2.4]

What is the correct headstud pattern of WBX?    Does anybody have accurate dimensions?  From various sites, i have educated guesses that its about 83x88mm...or 88x83mm.
I need these measurements fo 101.6 LN engineering cyl order.

Hi,
on my 2.1 SR case it's the opposite of your diagram, 88mm width and 83mm height

[Udo]

[/quote]

Hi,
on my 2.1 SR case it's the opposite of your diagram, 88mm width and 83mm height
[/quote]

This is right 

[-Alex-]

Ok, thanks. Now its verified from few sources   Other thing still in mind, how many mm i should leave to the top of the cylinder after fins, i will use MS230 4" heads. Desired compression is 10.5:1. On my pic i have 18mm.

[Udo]

18 mm should be well . But do you think aluminium cylinder will be strong enough on the case side ? They are very long and thin. I would go with 96mm iron cylinders and JE pistons. Very strong and reliable .

Udo

[cassa]

Hi.
I think the part of the cylinder that goes into the case should be 35mm, and the bore of the heads is 110,3 IIRC.
Safe limit for the casebore would be a 105,5 bore, leaving a complete sealing surface for the cylinders. resulting in thin walls like Udo is conserned about.
I also think 13mm should be enough for the top of sylinder to the fins, but would doble check with JPM based on your CR/flycut.

reg
C

[ED2.4]

Hi,
same combo here , except the cylinders
the "stock" 4" MS230 have 65cc chambers volume and the bores are 110mm x 13.4mm deep,so 18mm is more than enough if your CR is correct

[Udo]

Sorry but i do not like the 101,6 for street use.  But in finnland it is pretty cold and it is not allowed to drive that fast   

Udo

[-Alex-]

LN engineering nicasils should work on the street very well, charles at LN told me that 101.6mm cylinders are fine for street and strip use if engine is N/A. These are not low strenght cast aluminum cylinders, they are 100% machined from  aluminum extrusions. Plan to make the top of the cylinders For turbocharged engine he recommended few mm smaller bore.


Bottom of the cylinder will be 2,4-2,5mm, charles told me that stock porsche cylinders have 3,5mm and normal porsche slipins are 2,5mm.

http://www.lnengineering.com/howitsmade.html


And case will be TF-1, setup for flanged crank and center bronze thrust bearing.  TF-1 case for 4" cylinders has 106,68mm opening and no casesavers, it does not need casesavers.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1132484

Hoping to get crank, case, Je's and Cyls before next year