T1 aluminum case running hotter than magnesium?

[JIMP]

Hello

I have some problems with a T1 1641 aluminum engine, to make things short is a very "light" combo at about 80HP but seems to get hotter than any other magnesium T1 engine we have -even more powerfull-. I have searched anything possible for this issue, no luck until now, after a short ride of about 10km with normal eng. speed (3000-3500rpm) I have already over 100oC in the oil, do you have any experiences of aluminum cases running hotter in general because of material lets say or still I have another problem I have to find out, please let me hear your opinions as It's driving me crazy already, thanks for looking

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Dimitrios

[Torben Alstrup]

Hello Dimitrios.
Yes the ally cases do run warmer than Mag cases. But not that much. Usually 7-10 degrees.

Are you using a 30 mm oil pump ? - The Ally case seems to want that.
Next, have you tried altering the reduction spring pressure to see if it makes a difference ?

I shouldnt need to tell you, but double check your ignition timing and mix too.

T

[Udo]

Hello

I have some problems with a T1 1641 aluminum engine, to make things short is a very "light" combo at about 80HP but seems to get hotter than any other magnesium T1 engine we have -even more powerfull-. I have searched anything possible for this issue, no luck until now, after a short ride of about 10km with normal eng. speed (3000-3500rpm) I have already over 100oC in the oil, do you have any experiences of aluminum cases running hotter in general because of material lets say or still I have another problem I have to find out, please let me hear your opinions as It's driving me crazy already, thanks for looking

Friendly

Dimitrios

Sounds like you have some problems with the bearings . did you check all at the case ?

Udo

[JIMP]

Hello

Torben yes and yes and no need to tell me, Udo is there any way to check this without taking apart the case?

O.K. the compete story to help you help me. Unit is 1641 T1 alum, case, new cylinders, pistons, heads 40X35,5, w110, compression 8:1, came ready assembled to me by the customer -ready unit from a european supplier-. I set it initially on the car with stock exhaust and stock 34pict carb extra jetted and std vacuum distributor, no need to tell you what happened to the first test. Second attempt new oil cooler and checking for clogged oil ways, seals etc change to the check valve spring, visual check of fan shroud for clogging, fan for spinning with alt, fan the wide one, all tins and seals in place, plus still extra jetting from curiosity, on the test like nothing happened. Third attempt 40mm dells with 30mm vents still extra jetted, 4-1 exhaust -retaining the stock heat exhangers- and 009 dist set at 28degrees. Testing on a test bed I have without load, 95oC after 15min of running with no load!! temperature on the hedas at that time about 130oC, on the road better now but still getting hot quickly. Extra external oil cooler -mercedes trans oil unit- in the front no fan, reataining the stock cooler -oil pump cover with outlet and csp adaptor return in the case, no piston now in the valve. Oil pump was initialy 30mm. Now a little bit better but still climbing to 120oC-without stopping going higher-  after going on highway for about 10km with 4000rpms. The gauge is triple checked with other devices and also with external dipstick electronic gauge, readings are O.K. +- 5oC .

If you can suggest something after all these I will be really releived as I start to feel kind of stupid, I feel that something simple is missing or the engine itself it's completely off, the only parts  now running on the engine old are the heater boxes and the fan shroud -1,6 std unit-. I don't think the std heater boxes can heat this engine that much as I feel it doesn;t have more than 75-80HP,

Also car grilles O.K. engine lid with 4 rows of grilles and all tins and seals in place, let me please hear your suggestions

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Dimitrios

[John Rayburn]

Are you running a fan shroud with the stock flaps in it? are they open?

[TexasTom]

Just a suggestion ... have you tried more ignition advance? 30* total, possibly more?
Simple to try ...
Good luck with it.
TxT

[Peter]

hello,
i dont remember completely,
but dont you have to block the oil passage to the stock oil cooler when using the csp full flow adapter?
i think the stock oil cooler isnt used when using the full flow adapter?


http://csp-shop.de/cgi-bin/cshop2/front/shop_main.cgi?func=det&wkid=93139834637&rub1=Engine&rub2=Oil%20System%2COil%20Filtering&artnr=22198a&pn=0&sort=0&all=

[JIMP]

Hello

John, no flaps at all, Tom I have tried it up to 34deg, it's more driveable this way but no change, I left it to 28deg after manufacturers recomendation. Peter maybe you're right but it doesn't hurt also to leave it there, wasn't in the mood to take apart once again the shroud or was convinced??? already that the external cooler won't solve the problem? I have the impression that I'm trying to fix a problem but I don't find the problem in it's root so no good until now

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Dimitrios

[Torben Alstrup]

You can leave the stock cooler in place. No problem. The efficiency of it is reduced somewhat though..

From what you write, I am seriusly beginning to lean towards Udo´s suggestion.

35 mm exhaust valves topped off with stock heaterboxes is not good for temperature either. But that is not the problem here, as that tells tales on the head temps.
The engine you describe will not make much torque, hence you feel that its tame. Unless the heads are "useless" to the combo it should peak fair.
(That´s the curse of off the shelf engines)

T

[Udo]

I sayed bearings because it sounds like that . some cases need modification from oil channel to bearing.

Udo

[JIMP]

Hello

Torben as I mentioned alrady I thought so also about the heater boxes, but still I don't think this is the major problem here,
Udo can you explain better about this modification needed? When you refer to bearings provocing this kind of overheating you mean tight tolerances, misalingment of bearings between them, both situations or other?

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Dimitrios

[Udo]

What i mean is that the oil galleries do not line up with the bearing hole ...  What ever it is i would disassemble the engine  and watch for it

Udo

[RhoadsVW]

Udo is correct about the bearings chanels not lining up with the oil holes in the case.  Also if you used a gasket with the oil pump cover how thick is it. Clearance between the pump, cover and the gears is very important. I always surface the pump to make closier tollerances. Also the aftermarket pistons for the preasure release seem to come three to four thousands smaller than OEM and that also leads to problems with cooling and preasure. Hope this helps.   Dave Rhoads

[JIMP]

Hello,

thanks a lot Dave, I'm starting to thing that our only way is to contact the manyfacturer for further details, thank you all for helping me out

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Dimitrios

[TexasTom]

Wouldn't oil hole MIS-alignment lead mainly to bearing failure rather than simply high oil temperatures?
I agree there is a poor alignment condition, but if not corrected I've mainly seen metal in the filter.
Please school me ...

TxT

[RhoadsVW]

On the miss alignment of the bearings I was mostly confirming Udo that there is a problem. The motor does still get oil flow just very little.  There is also the problem with to much clearance between the pump and pump cover that will lower oil pressure to where the oil is not slung up to the pistons good enough to help cool. With the pressure release pistons being under size it's like having another 3 or 4 thousands bearing clearance which also creates lower pressure.  Need to check everything when assembly.   Dave Rhoads

[Udo]

Wouldn't oil hole MIS-alignment lead mainly to bearing failure rather than simply high oil temperatures?
I agree there is a poor alignment condition, but if not corrected I've mainly seen metal in the filter.
Please school me ...

TxT

What i know is if the bearings do not get enough oil first the temperature gets high because the bearings and crank get hot . after that they get bad and you have metal in the filter
May be i am wrong on this engine but when it is getting hot like this in that short time i would look for everything inside

Udo

[JIMP]

Thank you all for your inputs

I have contacted the manufacturer already to see what the problem could be, cheers

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Dimitrios