FRONT DISC BRAKES WITH DROPPED SPINDLES (LINK PIN)

[johnl]

I'd appreciate comments on this set up.  Expensive yes, but looks like real quality.
/color]

http://airkewld.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=ilvm_fly_showroom_mall.tpl&product_id=444&category_id=94&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=261

[hotrodsurplus]

I'd appreciate comments on this set up.  Expensive yes, but looks like real quality.

If there's anything that I take issue with it's the drilled rotors. Those holes constitute stress risers and can (and often will) propagate cracks. I'm not convinced that they serve much purpose as far as heat dissipation is concerned. If you're really concerned with outgassing (which I understand is largely irrelevant today) then ask if the shop will merely dimple the rotors instead of drilling them through. I would personally go for an un-drilled rotor.

If I had my druthers I'd have a true vented rotor. They dissipate heat far and away better than a solid rotor (drive an old solid-rotor Jag hard and you'll believe). But as compromised as a solid rotor is, it's probably better than any drum available for a VW if only for modulation (drums are prone to lock far before discs are). And I like the idea of a standard offset. This heavy-offset business is for the birds. It screws up scrub radius.

[javabug]

I haven't run Airkewld's brakes yet, but I'd like to upgrade to them someday. I like the calipers, AND the neat ability to swap bolt patterns.

[jamiep_jamiep]

I've been looking into disc brakes on alink pin front end... anybody use these Jaycee/RLR brakes?



http://www.jayceevw.com/special_order_products

Obviously these aren't wide 5 pattern, so I suppose its how original you want it to appear in respect of wheel choice.

[TexasTom]

I have these exact brakes, actually all the way around.
And yes, the ability to change bolt patterns is AWESOME!
I found the install very straightforward and logical. Parts and brackets are good quality.
I had my doubts about the rear hubs being solid aluminum, but so far they are burnout and standing start -proof!
One option I took that I'd definitely NOT recommend is the 4-pad calipers up front .... WAY too much front brake for a beetle, unless you're roadracing (not just fast street/road driving either) all the time or running some rediculously large and HEAVY wheel/tire combo! I'm switching to two-pads this winter.
Let me know if you have other questions or concerns ...
TxT

[johnl]

I have these exact brakes, actually all the way around.
And yes, the ability to change bolt patterns is AWESOME!
I found the install very straightforward and logical. Parts and brackets are good quality.
I had my doubts about the rear hubs being solid aluminum, but so far they are burnout and standing start -proof!
One option I took that I'd definitely NOT recommend is the 4-pad calipers up front .... WAY too much front brake for a beetle, unless you're roadracing (not just fast street/road driving either) all the time or running some rediculously large and HEAVY wheel/tire combo! I'm switching to two-pads this winter.
Let me know if you have other questions or concerns ...
TxT

I was thinking of going with the "single" piston up front as that is the one which will not alter the offset according to what I read.  Also, it has got to be better than the stock drum brakes.  I noted the comments regarding the drilled rotor and will quiz the source on that.  I'm not interested in a narrow beam and want to retain ride quality and the use of my newly installed Koni shocks.

My plan is to run a 205 wide 5 wheel and I'm working through this currently.  Currently I have 15x5.5 Chromies up front and I think that the change will move the wheel in further than it currently sits.  With a 155 tire (currently running 165) and a 2.5" drop I might just get away with it.

Their info states they use an EMPI dropped spindle if I read it correctly.  Are you pleased with the quality of that?  I hear a lot of negative regarding EMPI products but I think it is a mixed bag as I'm sure they have good stuff as well.  Based on what I see on their design and quality of build I'd suspect that the spindles are of quality.  Thoughts??

[hotrodsurplus]

it has got to be better than the stock drum brakes.

I can't imagine it being any worse for sure! Yeah, the theory alone makes the kit superior to VW drums.

I noted the comments regarding the drilled rotor and will quiz the source on that.

Ask more than just that source. If they're doing it then they feel justified but there may be more to it than what they know or understand. Call around to several brake companies and get their input as well. Of course you're going to have to fib a bit and say you're running brakes for another application if you call a vendor like Baer that doesn't support VW brakes. Also, if you can, read the entries about brakes in Carroll Smith's books. He revealed a lot.

Currently I have 15x5.5 Chromies up front and I think that the change will move the wheel in further than it currently sits.

Are you also changing the wheel to a 4.5? Those wheels will reduce the wheel track by a full inch (half an inch each side) compared to the 5.5s. In fact i highly recommend doing that. If you're just changing the brakes from drum to these then the wheel will remain in exactly the same place.

Their info states they use an EMPI dropped spindle if I read it correctly.

 

Understand that the EMPI spindles increase track width by 1/4" each side (half an inch in total). That wouldn't be at all bad if you simply swapped to the 4.5 wheels and 155 tires.

I don't have any experience with the EMPI spindles but they do appear to be forged. That's good. I wouldn't run a cast spindle on a dare. Bear in mind that they are likely made in China, though. That's not to say they're inherently bad but it leads one to question the quality control.

It's sort of off topic but if you do the 155s up front consider getting a set of 185R-15s down the line for the rear. That would be especially cool if you did the 4.5" wheels up front. That way both the wheel and the tire would be an inch wider. The bigger rear tires fill out the rear wells.

[johnl]

At this time the plan is to use an American Torker style wheel which is 5.5" BUT the offset is different than the current chrome wheel on the car.  John Rayburn is running this style wheel on his '64 with stock spindles and A-C brakes.  He used a spacer to move the wheel out for clearance from the brake caliper.  My thinking is that I might end up the same as his car which works.

Nothing is cast in concrete at this time, I'm simply going through the motions and realize that it is like putting a puzzle together.  I reread the info on the disc kit and can't currently locate the "EMPI" connection, but I sure I did see it.  They state than ANY dropped spindle will move the wheel out 3/8" over the stock location.

I really appreciate all of the input from you guys.  Keep it comming.     

[danny gabbard]

I bought the empi spindles for one of my cars and was not happy with machine work and sent them back and got CB spindles. I have them on both of my cars. And the off-set was more like 5/8 on the empi spindles, Measureing from center of king pin to the surface where backing plates bolt to and did the same on stock spindles. I narrowed beam 5/8 of a inch on each side and still use stock shock towers.

[johnl]

I bought the empi spindles for one of my cars and was not happy with machine work and sent them back and got CB spindles. I have them on both of my cars. And the off-set was more like 5/8 on the empi spindles, Measureing from center of king pin to the surface where backing plates bolt to and did the same on stock spindles. I narrowed beam 5/8 of a inch on each side and still use stock shock towers.

Danny, are you saying you took your stock beam and narrowed it 5/8" per side or a single cut of 1.5"?  If you did 5/8" per side where did you make the cut?  What did you do with the torsion bars and tie rods.  Sorry to be so dense on all of this, but I'm trying to explore all options before jumping in the pool.

[danny gabbard]

Hi John, I wanted to narrow 5/8 a side or 1.250 total. If you are going to add adjusters you need to remove inner center peice that holds torsion bars. It is 1.50 wide if I remember right. So now beam is cut more than I needed ,So I had to make spacer to get the width that I was trying to acheive. Made spacer from donner beam (Thanks Randy) Here Are a few picture to show what I did, Let me know if this helps or need more pictures.

[dannyboy]

i liked the kit on my old car but as said above 145 front tyres and four pot wilwoods made the front lock up unless you are careful
and the different bolt pattern is a great idea

[danny gabbard]

Couple shots with adjusters

[johnl]

Hi John, I wanted to narrow 5/8 a side or 1.250 total. If you are going to add adjusters you need to remove inner center peice that holds torsion bars. It is 1.50 wide if I remember right. So now beam is cut more than I needed ,So I had to make spacer to get the width that I was trying to acheive. Made spacer from donner beam (Thanks Randy) Here Are a few picture to show what I did, Let me know if this helps or need more pictures.

Danny, thanks for the valuable info.  Still need your reply on what was done with the torsion bars and tie rods.

[TexasTom]

An additional note ... though I did order the kit with the spindles, I decided to use my original lowered spindles that I installed some 12 or so years ago as they were, I felt, a bit nicer and ALREADY INSTALLED (don't remember the brand).

NICE work as always, Danny!
TxT

[danny gabbard]

Torsion bars I flipped , cut and redrilled. Then with beam back in car assembled with wheels on and setting on ground, I did a quick alighnment with 1/8 toe and sterring box adjusted to center I figured tie rods. If you have to cut tie rod lenght. I machined a peice that tapped in tube and welded. Also drilled holes in tube and rosette welded to center peice I'm sure there are many ways to do this job, Its just how I did mine.

[hotrodsurplus]

At this time the plan is to use an American Torker style wheel which is 5.5" BUT the offset is different than the current chrome wheel on the car.

Actually those American-style wheels are 5". They have a 3.6" backspace for a 15.25mm ET (positive offset). The chromies are 5.5 but they have roughly 3.875" backspace for a 15.875mm ET. The torker wheels will actually move the tire out (widen the track) .02" on each side. That's not much to fret but it won't move the wheel in either.

John Rayburn is running this style wheel on his '64 with stock spindles and A-C brakes.  He used a spacer to move the wheel out for clearance from the brake caliper.  My thinking is that I might end up the same as his car which works.

And that car works. I'd copy it. You can lower a kingpin car and still maintain ride quality so spindles really aren't necessary (the suspension geometry sucks as far as handling and braking is concerned anyway). Dropped spindles are almost obligatory to lower a ball-joint car as the joints bind if you lower the car very much by the beam only.

One other thing to consider are the forged dropped spindles that came out a few years ago. I can't remember who made them but they might have been from Germany or something. From what I recall they didn't increase the wheel track at all.

You're smart by doing the homework before buying the parts. Most people do it the other way.

[javabug]

I'm worried about seeing John's '63 with Torkers. It may look so good that I won't be able to handle it.

[johnl]

I'm worried about seeing John's '63 with Torkers. It may look so good that I won't be able to handle it.

The only reply I can offer is SUFFER BABY, SUFFER............   

[Zach Gomulka]

Let me get this straight.... Rayburn has 5" Torker's, stock beam, drop spindles, Porsche drums, 155's, and it fits and doesn't rub?

[johnl]

Let me get this straight.... Rayburn has 5" Torker's, stock beam, drop spindles, Porsche drums, 155's, and it fits and doesn't rub?

I think what John Rayburn has is a stock beam and spindles with adjusters, A-C disc brake kit and 155's.  The Porsche drums were earlier and he was running a different wheel.  Don't hold me to this, but it is what I remember, but then I'm lucky to find my way around my own house anymore............

[Zach Gomulka]

Ok, that would make more sense. I run 145's on 4 1/2" wheels with CB drop spindles/disc brakes on a stock beam and it would still rub during aggressive cornering, even with a fat 3/4" sway bar up front. The spindles do preserve your ride quality, but the added track is a real downfall.

[Bryan67]

Why not a CB 2" narrowed beam and drop spindle wide five disc brake kit? One stop shopping.

[hotrodsurplus]

Why not a CB 2" narrowed beam and drop spindle wide five disc brake kit? One stop shopping.

It wouldn't be the best deal for another reason: scrub radius.

Scrub radius is the distance between the kingpin centerline and the center of the tire's contact patch as measured on the ground. A little bit of scrub radius is good as it uses the wheels' rolling resistance to preload the steering assembly to a slight degree (there's always a tiny bit of slop somewhere). That helps make the car feel more stable. A car with zero scrub feels vague and wanders. Bear in mind that this is an entirely different dynamic than caster.

The aftermarket wheels and the beam don't just widen the track; they do so by the worst way: they increase the scrub radius. According to CB its kit increases the scrub by 3/4-inch. That's big in itself. And the Torker wheels he wants to use increase the scrub radius another 3/4-inch more than it would be with a stock wheel. That's a full 1 1/2 inches additional scrub radius than the stock design called for. The wheels alone or the spindles/brakes alone probably wouldn't create much of an issue. But together that's a lot of leverage on the steering.

It's not only a lot of scrub radius; it's the worst kind: positive. A car with lots of positive scrub radius will steer in the direction of a bump. So if the right side hits a big bump the car will steer to the right, even if only slightly. That disrupts the car to an even greater extent than simply hitting the bump. Guys who run reversed wheels on american cars will tell you that a good bump can wrench the steering wheel from your hands.

But worse yet is when a tire loses traction under braking (ice, hydroplaning, gravel, etc). A car with excessive positive scrub radius will steer towards the tire with most traction. That transfers weight to the side that has least traction. That's a recipe for a good spin.

I know that people frequently compensate for offset wheels, brakes, and spindles by narrowing the beam. And i know most people will never have a problem with it. But that doesn't mean someone won't have a problem from it. It's not the best remedy.

[Zach Gomulka]

Why not a CB 2" narrowed beam and drop spindle wide five disc brake kit? One stop shopping.

I know that people frequently compensate for offset wheels, brakes, and spindles by narrowing the beam. And i know most people will never have a problem with it. But that doesn't mean someone won't have a problem from it. It's not the best remedy.

So what is the best remedy? Wide fenders? The recipe Brian suggested works, and works quite well.

[Bryan67]

Why not a CB 2" narrowed beam and drop spindle wide five disc brake kit? One stop shopping.

It wouldn't be the best deal for another reason: scrub radius.

Scrub radius is the distance between the kingpin centerline and the center of the tire's contact patch as measured on the ground. A little bit of scrub radius is good as it uses the wheels' rolling resistance to preload the steering assembly to a slight degree (there's always a tiny bit of slop somewhere). That helps make the car feel more stable. A car with zero scrub feels vague and wanders. Bear in mind that this is an entirely different dynamic than caster.

The aftermarket wheels and the beam don't just widen the track; they do so by the worst way: they increase the scrub radius. According to CB its kit increases the scrub by 3/4-inch. That's big in itself. And the Torker wheels he wants to use increase the scrub radius another 3/4-inch more than it would be with a stock wheel. That's a full 1 1/2 inches additional scrub radius than the stock design called for. The wheels alone or the spindles/brakes alone probably wouldn't create much of an issue. But together that's a lot of leverage on the steering.

It's not only a lot of scrub radius; it's the worst kind: positive. A car with lots of positive scrub radius will steer in the direction of a bump. So if the right side hits a big bump the car will steer to the right, even if only slightly. That disrupts the car to an even greater extent than simply hitting the bump. Guys who run reversed wheels on american cars will tell you that a good bump can wrench the steering wheel from your hands.

But worse yet is when a tire loses traction under braking (ice, hydroplaning, gravel, etc). A car with excessive positive scrub radius will steer towards the tire with most traction. That transfers weight to the side that has least traction. That's a recipe for a good spin.

I know that people frequently compensate for offset wheels, brakes, and spindles by narrowing the beam. And i know most people will never have a problem with it. But that doesn't mean someone won't have a problem from it. It's not the best remedy.

That sounds great and all. But have you actually had a car with this setup? I`ve had a few and they drove just fine.

[hotrodsurplus]

So what is the best remedy? Wide fenders? The recipe Brian suggested works, and works quite well.

Wide fenders wouldn't be a good remedy either. The excessive positive scrub radius would still exist at the expense of aesthetics.

The correct remedy would be to design and manufacture suspension and brake components and wheels to specifications that preserve or at least come close to factory geometry.

It isn't impossible; Airkewld and So Cal Imports both manufacture disc kits that don't alter the offset. One is expensive but it's also light; the other is heavy but it's also inexpensive. I think a lot of people think that it's impossible to combine a zero-offset disc kit with a low-offset dropped spindle but when I got into this market in 1986 everyone thought an affordable, zero-offset, wide-five disc brake kit that would work properly on the street was impossible (wide-five disc kits existed as early as the mid '70s). Hell, that was the case well into the late '90s.

As I wrote earlier, taken by itself either a high-offset disc/spindle kit OR a high-offset wheel wouldn't be so much of an issue. It's when you combine the two that things get sketchy.

 

[hotrodsurplus]

That sounds great and all. But have you actually had a car with this setup? I`ve had a few and they drove just fine.

Yes, I have owned Volkswagens that have had lots of positive scrub radius. The worst was a '66 that had copycat EMPI fives (increase scrub radius by .88") on a suspension with JT Forge dropped spindles (at least .5" more scrub increase). At best that was 1 3/8" scrub increase. The steering wheel would tug whenever one wheel hit a bump harder than the other--you could really feel the whiskey bumps in the steering wheel when you changed lanes. And it was grabby under braking--like borderline scary if you were trying to scrub off a lot of speed on a patchy road--the car would dart.

I later installed Centerline bubbles on the front of that car. Their 32mm ET reduced the scrub radius more than stock wheels would have ('66 and '67 wheels have a 29mm ET). At the time I didn't understand why but the dartiness and steering input went away. The car turned in way better and got easier to steer.

As I wrote earlier I know people run lots of scrub radius and never notice it. But that doesn't mean it's correct to do it. Moving to a place where road ice is an issue caused me to think more critically. The prospect of hitting a small patch under braking makes me wince. Performance is measured by more than simply acceleration. 

Maybe I'm a fool for doing so but I'm just trying to increase awareness of these often misunderstood dynamics. If we as consumers demand more of the parts we buy inevitably at least a few manufacturers will oblige us. Otherwise it's just status quo and nothing will change.

[johnl]

This is all a very interesting read and I feel I've opened "The Can of Worms".  I think the bottom line here is we as "Hot Rodders" are trying to modify something that was originally built as the most basic form of transportation.  I can still hear my Dad saying, "the engineers built it that way for a reason".

In some cases improvements come from efforts like ours but there are always tradeoffs.  As Chris stated earlier in this thread I'm trying to do my homework prior to purchasing stuff that isn't best for my goal.

Beyond all of this I'm trying to research the different choices in Torker wheels available on the market today.  Of course my desire would be to have a real set of "Mag" Americans but there are issues there, (1) finding them (2) the cost once you complete step (1) and then and maybe the most critical issue is running a 40+ year old "Mag" wheel on the street.  When I was a kid I didn't think much about that, but now I do.  The weight difference between the original wheel and the repops is sugnificant but for a mild street car does it really play into the equation?

I've seen the JGE wheels, to my knowledge the first copy of the original American, then there is the Midland wheel which I've heard negative about, but I've also held one in my hand and with my limited knowledge it looked good.  Last is the EMPI version which someone told me could be comming out of the same China factory as the Midland.  I've yet to see one of these in person.

It has been suggested that I purchase (1) of the Midland and EMPI wheels to do a comparison.  This may not be a bad idea as in the long run it is not that much money and I might be able to return them if then don't measure up.  My goal from the beginning is to purchase at least five wheels for the car and possibly a sixth, one just to put on the shelf as I like having a backup for the unknown.

Finally and possibly the best choice is to leave the car alone at stock height with the 5.5 Porsche style chromies on it as I know that has worked and worked well for over 30 years.  Now back to pondering................

[TexasTom]

Finally and possibly the best choice is to leave the car alone at stock height with the 5.5 Porsche style chromies on it as I know that has worked and worked well for over 30 years.  Now back to pondering................

... but what would you be if you didn't even try, John? You have to try.

Sometimes while pondering it's possible to over-analyze. I know, I do it all the time
TxT