Webster 5 speed straight cut gearbox - Any information please :)

[Lee.C]

As always guys - as the title says  

Webster 5 speed straight cut gearbox - Anyone got ANY more info on these boxes

Here is what we have so far:

Webster manufacture gears for racing. The company's five-speed conversions were based on Type I transaxles and from what experience I had with them they were made primarily for off-road racecars. I think it was early '80s. Again, from memory fifth gear was above reverse for a true H pattern (with three legs, of course). And I believe that they traded synchros for shift dogs. But I never drove one so I couldn't tell you for sure. I'm no expert.

[hotrodsurplus]

This might be a Webster fiver.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1171807

Call a good trans shop before you call that guy. I don't think he knows what he has.

[glenn]

Webster 5 speeds are based on Type 1 transaxles and were used in Formula Ford 1600 and 2000 racing. They are non-syncromesh and a PITA to drive on the street.

Pegasus Racing has parts for them.

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com

[OC1967vw]

Webster 5 speeds are based on Type 1 transaxles and were used in Formula Ford 1600 and 2000 racing. They are non-syncromesh and a PITA to drive on the street.

Pegasus Racing has parts for them.

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com

Glenn has it right. These were not made for street use. Very big in SCCA racing years ago. Why anyone would want to attempt to use one on the street is beyond belief. Two key words in Glenn's description=  NON-SYNCHROMESH and PITA


Webster=track only

[hotrodsurplus]

In the Zundfolge post you mentioned that you drove a crashbox transaxle and I added that I had experience with early Ford non-synchro transmissions. I can't vouch for the VW 'box but the Ford boxes are waaaay easier to drive than a Hewland. The concentration to keep a Hewland from crunching is on a log scale more tricky than an early Ford box and I can't imagine that the VW box is much different than the Ford. I'm assuming that the Webster is not much different than the Hewland. Maybe someone out there is way better than me but I could never shift a Hewland very fast. 

[glenn]

I have a friend with one and he made the mistake of driving my car with a Berg 5.

He said if he could sell it for half of what he has into it, he would get a Berg 5.

I drove it and it's a bitch in traffic. And i hate the dog leg 1st.

[hotrodsurplus]

I drove it and it's a bitch in traffic. And i hate the dog leg 1st.

Aha! So it was first that got the dogleg. I remembered it as fifth--as in to engage fifth you had to push it up over reverse. Man, can you imagine trying to speed shift from first to second and catching reverse by mistake? Keeeeerrrruuuuuuunnnnnch....

[OC1967vw]

I drove it and it's a bitch in traffic. And i hate the dog leg 1st.

Aha! So it was first that got the dogleg. I remembered it as fifth--as in to engage fifth you had to push it up over reverse. Man, can you imagine trying to speed shift from first to second and catching reverse by mistake? Keeeeerrrruuuuuuunnnnnch....

a big YES

[OC1967vw]

I have a friend with one and he made the mistake of driving my car with a Berg 5.

He said if he could sell it for half of what he has into it, he would get a Berg 5.

I drove it and it's a bitch in traffic. And i hate the dog leg 1st.

Glenn, you are being restrained in your description.....LOL

what was the rpm shift points to avoid that CRUNCH?

[OC1967vw]

I have a friend with one and he made the mistake of driving my car with a Berg 5.

He said if he could sell it for half of what he has into it, he would get a Berg 5.

I drove it and it's a bitch in traffic. And i hate the dog leg 1st.

Although you didnt say it, that is the reason why GB modeled the Berg 5 on the 911 box with 5th in the nose cone. Porsche was smart and there was not a need to re-invent the proverbial wheel, was there? Kind of explains why Berg 5 owners say what they feel about the Berg5.

[hotrodsurplus]

what was the rpm shift points to avoid that CRUNCH?

The first-to-reverse shift point? Since reverse is numerically really close to first but backwards it's usually the same engine speed as your shift point but just counterclockwise. To get the engine to spin backwards takes a special starter made from a reverse-wound Tatra T-87 drive motor and a sprag gear from a pre-war Zephyr Wombat.

I, on the other hand, find it much easier to go into reverse at speed by spinning the car.

[TexasTom]

As the saying goes ... Buy the BEST and cry Once.
Why screw around with some race only trash built for use in a 900 pound vehicle?

Will you be singled out in the crowd? Most likely, Yes.
"WOW, I drove one of those once and it was a POS!"

Cool ... NO.

TxT

[OC1967vw]

what was the rpm shift points to avoid that CRUNCH?

The first-to-reverse shift point? Since reverse is numerically really close to first but backwards it's usually the same engine speed as your shift point but just counterclockwise. To get the engine to spin backwards takes a special starter made from a reverse-wound Tatra T-87 drive motor and a sprag gear from a pre-war Zephyr Wombat.

I, on the other hand, find it much easier to go into reverse at speed by spinning the car.

that is a shift I would like to see....

[OC1967vw]

As the saying goes ... Buy the BEST and cry Once.
Why screw around with some race only trash built for use in a 900 pound vehicle?

Will you be singled out in the crowd? Most likely, Yes.
"WOW, I drove one of those once and it was a POS!"

Cool ... NO.

TxT

The Gene Berg statement....
Amen Brother TxT

[danny gabbard]

Plus you would'nt get any ZOTZ with the webster!!

[OC1967vw]

Plus you would'nt get any ZOTZ with the webster!!

Are you sure you dont mean pints with the webster??? or the hewland for that matter??? lol!

[hotrodsurplus]

Plus you would'nt get any ZOTZ with the webster!!

I always thought the Zotz from Gene Berg made my butt sore but I discovered that it was from being reamed for the same parts I could buy elsewhere for about half the money.

[Donny B.]

Why the Berg bashing? 

[glenn]

Why the Berg bashing? 

H@TERS, just ignore them.

[TexasTom]

Why the Berg bashing?  

Generally, I would say it may stem from a lack of knowledge of product, lack of respect for their products and preparation that goes into them, lack of understanding of what is necessary from a management perpective to facilitate a one-stop experience and provide the components and knowledge necessary to satisfy and support the needs of a world-wide customer base, or perhaps simple difference of opinion. Also, of course, a combination of any or ... ?
Who knows, who cares?

Keep smiling!
TxT

[hotrodsurplus]

H@TERS, just ignore them.

Hater? No, that maybe critical or even cynical. It's just that the emperor is not wearing any clothes.

[hotrodsurplus]

Generally, I would say it may stem from a lack of knowledge of product, lack of respect for their products and preparation that goes into them, lack of understanding of what is necessary from a management perpective to facilitate a one-stop experience and provide the components and knowledge necessary to satisfy and support the needs of a world-wide customer base, or perhaps simple difference of opinion. Also, of course, a combination of any or ... ?
Who knows, who cares?

Keep smiling!
TxT

I certainly admit that I don't understand why someone would claim that an engine can't tolerate more than 7.3:1 static CR regardless of cam timing or why they would willingly eliminate the quench area from a cylinder head. I don't understand how an expert couldn't understand the difference between RON and AKI octane ratings. I don't understand why a vendor would claim parts were Pick of the Litter when the box they came in was never even opened for inspection. And I really don't understand why I paid considerably more for those same parts that I could get from others--even FAT was considerably less money.

I will grant Berg for coming up with a good five-speed trans conversion. Oddly enough even though it costs a bundle it represents good value--as do some of some other parts like the deep sumps and trans mounts. I just think the guy needs a good postmortem ribbing every now and then.

[OC1967vw]

Why the Berg bashing?  

Generally, I would say it may stem from a lack of knowledge of product, lack of respect for their products and preparation that goes into them, lack of understanding of what is necessary from a management perpective to facilitate a one-stop experience and provide the components and knowledge necessary to satisfy and support the needs of a world-wide customer base, or perhaps simple difference of opinion. Also, of course, a combination of any or ... ?
Who knows, who cares?

Keep smiling!
TxT

Agreed-could not say it any better.

notice that for all the attempts at creating a 5 Speed, none has been introduced into the marketplace that will replace the Berg 5.

[OC1967vw]

Generally, I would say it may stem from a lack of knowledge of product, lack of respect for their products and preparation that goes into them, lack of understanding of what is necessary from a management perpective to facilitate a one-stop experience and provide the components and knowledge necessary to satisfy and support the needs of a world-wide customer base, or perhaps simple difference of opinion. Also, of course, a combination of any or ... ?
Who knows, who cares?

Keep smiling!
TxT

I certainly admit that I don't understand why someone would claim that an engine can't tolerate more than 7.3:1 static CR regardless of cam timing or why they would willingly eliminate the quench area from a cylinder head. I don't understand how an expert couldn't understand the difference between RON and AKI octane ratings. I don't understand why a vendor would claim parts were Pick of the Litter when the box they came in was never even opened for inspection. And I really don't understand why I paid considerably more for those same parts that I could get from others--even FAT was considerably less money.

I will grant Berg for coming up with a good five-speed trans conversion. Oddly enough even though it costs a bundle it represents good value--as do some of some other parts like the deep sumps and trans mounts. I just think the guy needs a good postmortem ribbing every now and then.

Sounds like a read of the Berg technical papers/manual is in order where these issues are all addressed: heat/engine longevity/compression ratio/product testing/product durability/rebuilding your motor every year versus after a 100,000 mile lifecycle.....alll minor issues it seems to some enthusiasts.

The question then remains: why is there a premium on Berg parts versus all other manufacturers-even used Berg parts?

Quality is quality-one does have free choice to spend their own money the way in which they decide-and Berg addressed that issue as well

[OC1967vw]

Why the Berg bashing?  

H@TERS, just ignore them.

Glenn and Don,
admire your postings and your cars and your dedication to Berg parts and a quality product commitment to the enthusiast/purchaser.

How many miles do you both have on your motors and Berg transaxles? Motor and transaxle history to date?

[OC1967vw]

As always guys - as the title says  

Webster 5 speed straight cut gearbox - Anyone got ANY more info on these boxes

Here is what we have so far:

Webster manufacture gears for racing. The company's five-speed conversions were based on Type I transaxles and from what experience I had with them they were made primarily for off-road racecars. I think it was early '80s. Again, from memory fifth gear was above reverse for a true H pattern (with three legs, of course). And I believe that they traded synchros for shift dogs. But I never drove one so I couldn't tell you for sure. I'm no expert.

My advice to you is to purchase a Berg 5 speed kit and have John Maher build it up for you there; purchase a used Berg 5 speed transmission and have John Maher rebuild it for you; stay with a stock box;
or buy a new or used Webster or Hewland box, install it, set aside a rather hefty rebuild savings account as you will need it to redo/replace your motor and transmission and to purchase a lot of medication to address all the headaches you will encounter.....sorry to be honest

[hotrodsurplus]

Sounds like a read of the Berg technical papers/manual is in order where these issues are all addressed: heat/engine longevity/compression ratio/product testing/product durability/rebuilding your motor every year versus after a 100,000 mile lifecycle.....alll minor issues it seems to some enthusiasts.

Where would you like me to start reading? Because I think I might be able to quote chapter and verse from the Blue Bible without even seeing it. Why? This is my blue bible.


This upcoming year (January, in fact) marks my 20th anniversary with that book. I was once very taken with the things Berg said. He said/wrote it with such authority and conviction that it was hard to dispute it. I drank the Kool Aid and recited the gospel. I would rejoice with friends the many wonderful things Gene imparted in this book. I literally read the cover off the thing (it's in pieces now). I have the catalogs and the price sheets from the '80s and '90s. Before I moved to California I would make pilgrimages to 1725 N Lime. I would hang on every one of Berg's words as if he were omniscient. If he told me the sky were red I'd take his word for it. After all, he was around for longer than I was. He must know something I didn't. It was grand, that time in my life. I found the guy who answered my questions.

Then I got an education. A BIG one. And a very painful one at that. Among other things I am a technical writer for the automotive industry. I do not know it all nor do I know anyone who does but I know quite a bit thanks to the graciousness of many people from engineers at the OEM level to the very best engine builders this industry has known. I learned from what people like Harry Ricardo discovered in the 1920s, principles that automotive engineers rely on to this day.

And what I learned from them was that many of the things printed in the book that I took as gospel were misguided. Yeah, a great deal of it is relevant--thermostatic system, seal integrity, gear ratio (to a degree) and so on. In essence I learned to think for myself. I learned a lot about the mastery of the combination, that specifications have to be tuned to work with certain parts and not just to an arbitrary number based on a stock combination.

Glenn has too. What is the compression ratio of your engine, Glenn? I recall that it's upwards of 9+ static CR. And if I recall you run a tall ring/pinion and a bus fourth. Has it melted down yet? Both things fly in the face of Berg's teachings and I respect that. That shows independent thought. And I bet that engine runs cool as a cucumber and has lasted for a long time despite violating Berg's edicts. All of the things he villainized aren't necessarily the enemy.

Look I admire everyone's pluck here, whether or not I agree with them. They're stating their case. And in doing so we all get the opportunity to learn something. The last thing we should do is just lay over and take something as gospel because someone said it with great conviction. I fell victim to that and I'd be embarrassed of it if I didn't take the chance to really learn from it. And for god's sake don't take what I say as truth or gospel. I'm just some knucklehead who can't get over this car obsession. I don't have the answers and don't claim to either. Just find out for yourself. Read everything. Ask questions. Question 'authority'. And I admit I'm hard on Berg. But I think we need to come out from under the spell and recognize his contributions and his shortcomings. He and his company is neither all good nor all bad.

I know you must think that I'm not concerned with quality or longevity. I am...deeply. It's my money and this ain't cheap. But Berg's way is not the only way. And to bring it back on topic, the Berg five is likely the very best five-speed conversion for most applications. But that's for the end user to decide. And facts are necessary for an informed decision. 

[/rant]

[OC1967vw]

Sounds like a read of the Berg technical papers/manual is in order where these issues are all addressed: heat/engine longevity/compression ratio/product testing/product durability/rebuilding your motor every year versus after a 100,000 mile lifecycle.....alll minor issues it seems to some enthusiasts.

Where would you like me to start reading? Because I think I might be able to quote chapter and verse from the Blue Bible without even seeing it. Why? This is my blue bible.


This upcoming year (January, in fact) marks my 20th anniversary with that book. I was once very taken with the things Berg said. He said/wrote it with such authority and conviction that it was hard to dispute it. I drank the Kool Aid and recited the gospel. I would rejoice with friends the many wonderful things Gene imparted in this book. I literally read the cover off the thing (it's in pieces now). I have the catalogs and the price sheets from the '80s and '90s. Before I moved to California I would make pilgrimages to 1725 N Lime. I would hang on every one of Berg's words as if he were omniscient. If he told me the sky were red I'd take his word for it. After all, he was around for longer than I was. He must know something I didn't. It was grand, that time in my life. I found the guy who answered my questions.

Then I got an education. A BIG one. And a very painful one at that. Among other things I am a technical writer for the automotive industry. I do not know it all nor do I know anyone who does but I know quite a bit thanks to the graciousness of many people from engineers at the OEM level to the very best engine builders this industry has known. I learned from what people like Harry Ricardo discovered in the 1920s, principles that automotive engineers rely on to this day.

And what I learned from them was that many of the things printed in the book that I took as gospel were misguided. Yeah, a great deal of it is relevant--thermostatic system, seal integrity, gear ratio (to a degree) and so on. In essence I learned to think for myself. I learned a lot about the mastery of the combination, that specifications have to be tuned to work with certain parts and not just to an arbitrary number based on a stock combination.

Glenn has too. What is the compression ratio of your engine, Glenn? I recall that it's upwards of 9+ static CR. And if I recall you run a tall ring/pinion and a bus fourth. Has it melted down yet? Both things fly in the face of Berg's teachings and I respect that. That shows independent thought. And I bet that engine runs cool as a cucumber and has lasted for a long time despite violating Berg's edicts. All of the things he villainized aren't necessarily the enemy.

Look I admire everyone's pluck here, whether or not I agree with them. They're stating their case. And in doing so we all get the opportunity to learn something. The last thing we should do is just lay over and take something as gospel because someone said it with great conviction. I fell victim to that and I'd be embarrassed of it if I didn't take the chance to really learn from it. And for god's sake don't take what I say as truth or gospel. I'm just some knucklehead who can't get over this car obsession. I don't have the answers and don't claim to either. Just find out for yourself. Read everything. Ask questions. Question 'authority'. And I admit I'm hard on Berg. But I think we need to come out from under the spell and recognize his contributions and his shortcomings. He and his company is neither all good nor all bad.

I know you must think that I'm not concerned with quality or longevity. I am...deeply. It's my money and this ain't cheap. But Berg's way is not the only way. And to bring it back on topic, the Berg five is likely the very best five-speed conversion for most applications. But that's for the end user to decide. And facts are necessary for an informed decision. 

[/rant]

I certainly respect your opinion and point of view......points that are very well made. given this, Gene would probably agree with you. Many years have passed since those articles were written. And advances in auto technology have occurred during that time. Can you imagine what Gene would be doing on an 80 year old motor design?

[glenn]

Why the Berg bashing?  

H@TERS, just ignore them.

Glenn and Don,
admire your postings and your cars and your dedication to Berg parts and a quality product commitment to the enthusiast/purchaser.

How many miles do you both have on your motors and Berg transaxles? Motor and transaxle history to date?

I have 40,000+ miles on mine and regularly beat the snot out of it with my old 1904 and current 2180. It's off to Gary Berg to replace a noisy mainshaft bearing and update the breather so it doesn't puke gear lube during extended 80+mph runs.

Still shifts like new.

[Donny B.]

I have around 60k miles on mine.  Glenn I solved that problem years ago, but routing the breather line to a vented catch can that drained back into the ring gear housing.  I had my 5th gear synchro crack, but that's about it.