How much money to run 10s in a street car?now with part2, The evolution to turbo

[58vw]

richie....

it can not be done!!

[Eddie DVK]

The type 4 idea isn't a bad one and could even save money in the long run, as you won't have to spend dollars on upgrading brakes. Make a clever engine release system and drop the anchor  

I don t feel the love, where is the love.... hahahhahaha

PS:
Richie on the engine again, you could use a wbx crank (only problem is maybe to small 76mm) in a type 1 case, you can have the advantage of using a bigger flywheesl and clutches (up to 228mm)
would better fit the 091 bus box.

Regards Edgar

[richie]

Eddie

thanks thats not something I thought about,but the funky bearing set up on a wbx crank would put me off,also I am not sure how good the flywheel to crank fixing is,its another area that could end up costing money quickly,with the type 1 stuff I at least know what i can get away with before the flywheel falls off


So does anyone else apart from Berger want to throw so idea of cost out there? I have a figure in my head now but want to see what other feel its likely to cost? most of you know how much you have in your cars and how fast they are


cheers richie

[Eddie DVK]

Eddie

thanks thats not something I thought about,but the funky bearing set up on a wbx crank would put me off,also I am not sure how good the flywheel to crank fixing is,its another area that could end up costing money quickly,with the type 1 stuff I at least know what i can get away with before the flywheel falls off


So does anyone else apart from Berger want to throw so idea of cost out there? I have a figure in my head now but want to see what other feel its likely to cost? most of you know how much you have in your cars and how fast they are


cheers richie

No problem,  I now you have a lots of parts laying around, gives you things to think about what to use..

Sorry not good with the figures....  

Bu the way the crank to flywheel is the same as type 4, 5 big 12.9 bolts.

Regards Eddie

[richie]

Eddie has anyone put a good nitrous shot through the standard bolts? I rad a topic on here before about upgrading them,and allsorts of different ideas were put out there,when I ran the nitrous motor in the cabrio it was only 8 dowelled with a good gland nut done up properly,nothing fancy or expensive


cheers richie

[Lids]

Used
case = £400
Crank = £200
Cam + gear wheel = £60
Barrels and pistons = £200
sump = £30
Heads = £400
Carbs and manifolds = £800
Machine work and extras = £300

Gearbox = £1000

Now if this is a one shot 10 sec, 250bhp NOS system = £800
Cage = £800

Car, wheels and brakes  = £3000

[BeetleBug]

Thank you all for the good read! Richie, shouldn't the heading be: How LITTLE money to run 10s in a street car? Anyway, a great thread and the timing is spot on. Some of us is having a rough time financially but still wish to have fun.

My two cents, it is just a matter of using the calculator. Find the weight and you know what it will take to get you into the 10's. A good, solid shortblock in combination with good heads then add nitrous in a controlled way (you will soon blow any budget if not), a solid, true street car with the right tricks and you're there.

-K-

[Jesus]

Hi Richie

am curious is this a theoretical exercise? Or are you actually planning on giving it a go?

Cheers

Alex

[richie]

Hi Richie

am curious is this a theoretical exercise? Or are you actually planning on giving it a go?

Cheers

Alex

Hi alex

It will get done ,started looking for a base car,and will scan all the for sale adds for potential parts to use,new or used if I think I can use it then I will try,I will set myself a realistic target to have it done by,then we will see if it works

cheers richie

[richie]

Thank you all for the good read! Richie, shouldn't the heading be: How LITTLE money to run 10s in a street car? Anyway, a great thread and the timing is spot on. Some of us is having a rough time financially but still wish to have fun.

My two cents, it is just a matter of using the calculator. Find the weight and you know what it will take to get you into the 10's. A good, solid shortblock in combination with good heads then add nitrous in a controlled way (you will soon blow any budget if not), a solid, true street car with the right tricks and you're there.

-K-

Yes you are right,but to some people particularly in these difficult times even doing it on a budget is to much

So i will leave it as how much I think

I have played the weight/hp calculator before and it never seems to work out for ,so will go with more of an educated guess,it should be more fun that way not knowing what will happen

I dont have a budget as such but do have an amount I think it should be do-able on,hopefully less but I need everyone to advertise all the parts they dont need anymore for sale so I can get started


the track thing could be a problem seeing as its raining again here


cheers richie

[Berger]

Eddie has anyone put a good nitrous shot through the standard bolts? I rad a topic on here before about upgrading them,and allsorts of different ideas were put out there,when I ran the nitrous motor in the cabrio it was only 8 dowelled with a good gland nut done up properly,nothing fancy or expensive


cheers richie

The reason I sugested to use a wbx case converted to air, is because of it`s proven strength, and it`s cheap. Both the case and crank can easily handle 400hp and be very durable. ARP offers bolts for the flywheel if you want to add strength there. All you have to do is to convert it to type 1 camshaft, and cut of the water stuff. Of course there is some machining to get the cylinders in there, but you have to do that on a type 1 case anyway

Berger

[richie]

Oyvind,
[hope I spelt that correct?]

Can you give me a rough idea on cost for all the work needed to a wbx case to make it usable inc type1 head stud pattern and what do you do about the lack of oil capacity? dry sump isnt in the budget ? how difficult are main bearings to get? I know of one thats been done to type 4 mains,rear thrust,type 1 lifters,decked,flange crank still 4inch bore and it seems alot of money and seems difficult to get actually done,there are other anomilalies as well like front seal,pulley etc,fitting tin,if I got some of this wrong please let me know,nothing is not being considered at the moment[well except type 4 ]

cheers richie

[Elnef]

First you cry about expensive type4 then the work to get a wbx ready bla bla    

Here you go a wbx 2,1L short block with type1 stud pattern and so on 7000dkr

http://vwnettet.dk/topic/181278

[richie]

First you cry about expensive type4 then the work to get a wbx ready bla bla    

Here you go a wbx 2,1L short block with type1 stud pattern and so on 7000dkr

http://vwnettet.dk/topic/181278

      I am trying to see what options there are and how much it costs,but the off the shelf cost and availability of type 1 parts will be simpler and easier,the idea is to do it cheaply,I already have 2 money pits,I have no desire to create another one,you must understand that?


Thanks for the link,I put it into google translate but some of it still doesnt become clear

could you explain for me please?

cheers richie
 

[j-f]

Yes please, stick to something that is doable for a good DIYer. For some of you, it just make sense to use a WBX or a type4 because they are stronger. But for most of us, having all the work done on such case is expensive or even find people that are actually able to do it is not that simple. And following this trend, it will just make sense to put a turbo and EFI and all the build will snowball into a high end, high tech build.
Do it the Mark Herbert way, simple, reliable and fun to drive. 

[richie]

Yes please, stick to something that is doable for a good DIYer. For some of you, it just make sense to use a WBX or a type4 because they are stronger. But for most of us, having all the work done on such case is expensive or even find people that are actually able to do it is not that simple. And following this trend, it will just make sense to put a turbo and EFI and all the build will snowball into a high end, high tech build.
Do it the Mark Herbert way, simple, reliable and fun to drive. 

Exactly J-F   
I am trying to show what can be done with what most people have,and will stick to that unless there is a major saving or improvement to be had easily that might change the basic combos most build

I did wonder how long it would be before the Super sh#t box was mentioned,it was a perfect example of less is more, regular off the shelf parts put together well to make a good package,it cant be that complicated to do something similar with the bottle as the ingredient to make up for most not wishing to lighten there cars that much

cheers richie

[Elnef]

I uderstand what you are saying  

But I would like to say the type4 engine I made a link to yes its a lot of money but there is parts in it for a lot more so expensive no

I made the other link because its fits Richies idea well
Lots of parts for the money just under 1000euro
I would say its a easy fix for a diy man to take over the wbx short block

nye unitec pejlstænger = new unitec rods
nyslebet krumtap= new grinded cranck
nye lejer= new bearing
bronce bøsninger monteret til t1 lyfter= bronze bushing made for type1 lifters
slr lyfter= slr lifters
bøsninger i blok til t1 pindbolte monteret= bushing in case fore type1 stud pattern
fk knast anden kan monteres= fk cam another can be put in if you like
nyt knasthjul= new cam gear
kemisk renset blok =cemical cleaned block

The case is put toghether so put youre type 1 cyl and heads on and you have a long block

Frallan has a type4 200mm flywheel and clutch for sale on the lounge
http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,18573.msg265411.html#msg265411

[richie]

Thankyou John,it does look like good value for money,but I would proberly only use the case and bearings,maybe the crank depending on what size under it is,the same with that type 4,its good value and would cost lots more to buy those parts,but doesnt fit my criteria,its already to much money.

I now have a few cars I am interested in,a couple on ebay that I will keep an eye,if they stay reasonable I will bid on something,then there will be no going back

cheers richie

[Berger]

Oyvind,
[hope I spelt that correct?]

Can you give me a rough idea on cost for all the work needed to a wbx case to make it usable inc type1 head stud pattern and what do you do about the lack of oil capacity? dry sump isnt in the budget ? how difficult are main bearings to get? I know of one thats been done to type 4 mains,rear thrust,type 1 lifters,decked,flange crank still 4inch bore and it seems alot of money and seems difficult to get actually done,there are other anomilalies as well like front seal,pulley etc,fitting tin,if I got some of this wrong please let me know,nothing is not being considered at the moment[well except type 4 ]

cheers richie

I see John already have a example of what it may cost, so I think I leave that. But it comes down to how much you are able to do yourself in the end. For me I think it would only be machining the barrels and the holes in the case for the barrels I would have to pay for. I would choose to use a set of heads that comes with the wbx stud pattern.
When VW made the wbx engine, they took all their experience from type 1 and type 4 engine and made the best of both worlds. They went back to the type 1 case design, but made it in aluminium for better durability. Added the integrated oil filter, a larger oil sump, stronger crank, better flywheel mount design, better flywheel thrust design, larger clutch disk etc. My point is, you get a lot for free with the wbx case, which you normally have to add to the Typ1 case.
No problem to get the wbx crank bearings, vwpart, cip1 etc...

But I see your point to go with the type 1 case and off the shelf parts, my thought it was just an idea to save money and get durability

[Neil Davies]

This is really interesting. I'm going to follow this very closely - not that I can build it at the moment, but interesting nevertheless. I'm going to have a go at my fantasy street race car!

I've got a lot of bits already but I'll put down the cost as if I'd got to buy them.

My budget to start with would be:
£2000 - basic car with MOT. Maybe spend a little more and recoup some of the cost by selling parts, or a little less and do some work to make it solid and road legal. Probably a late model, tax exempt 1300 or similar.
£700 - rollcage. RLR cage, fit it yourself. Mild steel, not moly.
£1200 - gearbox. Type 1, ratios I haven't got a clue!
£600 - wheels and tyres. Up to you what you go for, but slicks are a given I would think. Stick them on some cheapy 8 spokes or something to keep the cost down, you may even get lucky and get some on the starting car. I've got a pair of mag Geminis which are nice and light.
£500 - suspension. Torsion bars, shocks, limit straps etc.
£500 - miscelaneous extras - seat, belts, window net etc.

So we're at £5.5k without even thinking about the engine! If I chuck in the 2007cc motor I've got at home then it's cost me £8 grand to run in the mid-12's.

Obviously the little motor won't get into the tens unless we "liberate" £500 by selling the 48 Dells and get a turbo (another £2k I reckon with the cam swap figured in), so are we better off getting rid of the motor complete and going for £3500 worth of 2276 and £800 worth of nitrous system? Both seem to be around £9500-£10k!

[Berger]

Oyvind,
[hope I spelt that correct?]

Can you give me a rough idea on cost for all the work needed to a wbx case to make it usable inc type1 head stud pattern and what do you do about the lack of oil capacity? dry sump isnt in the budget ? how difficult are main bearings to get? I know of one thats been done to type 4 mains,rear thrust,type 1 lifters,decked,flange crank still 4inch bore and it seems alot of money and seems difficult to get actually done,there are other anomilalies as well like front seal,pulley etc,fitting tin,if I got some of this wrong please let me know,nothing is not being considered at the moment[well except type 4 ]

cheers richie

I see John already have a example of what it may cost, so I think I leave that. But it comes down to how much you are able to do yourself in the end. For me I think it would only be machining the barrels and the holes in the case for the barrels I would have to pay for. I would choose to use a set of heads that comes with the wbx stud pattern.
When VW made the wbx engine, they took all their experience from type 1 and type 4 engine and made the best of both worlds. They went back to the type 1 case design, but made it in aluminium for better durability. Added the integrated oil filter, a larger oil sump, stronger crank, better flywheel mount design, better flywheel thrust design, larger clutch disk etc. My point is, you get a lot for free with the wbx case, which you normally have to add to the Typ1 case.
No problem to get the wbx crank bearings, vwpart, cip1 etc...

But I see your point to go with the type 1 case and off the shelf parts, my thought it was just an idea to save money and get durability

Here is a thread with a very nice oxy boxer http://www.vwnorge.no/index.php/topic,19860.450.html
Now i will not nag about it any more Richie 


Berger

[richie]

This is really interesting. I'm going to follow this very closely - not that I can build it at the moment, but interesting nevertheless. I'm going to have a go at my fantasy street race car!

I've got a lot of bits already but I'll put down the cost as if I'd got to buy them.

My budget to start with would be:
£2000 - basic car with MOT. Maybe spend a little more and recoup some of the cost by selling parts, or a little less and do some work to make it solid and road legal. Probably a late model, tax exempt 1300 or similar.

Yep about there as well,figure a good running car will liberate a sellable engine  £350 maybe?  and gearbox £200 ?

£700 - rollcage. RLR cage, fit it yourself. Mild steel, not moly.

for me chromoly and get soemone like hausers to bend the main hoop and front bars and halo bar,then do the rest myself,similar budget

£1200 - gearbox. Type 1, ratios I haven't got a clue!
proberly a little more than that,will try to find a used box and have it freshened up


£600 - wheels and tyres. Up to you what you go for, but slicks are a given I would think. Stick them on some cheapy 8 spokes or something to keep the cost down, you may even get lucky and get some on the starting car. I've got a pair of mag Geminis which are nice and light.

thinking around 750 as need 6 wheels
£500 - suspension. Torsion bars, shocks, limit straps etc.
£500 - miscelaneous extras - seat, belts, window net etc.

yes about right

So we're at £5.5k without even thinking about the engine! If I chuck in the 2007cc motor I've got at home then it's cost me £8 grand to run in the mid-12's.

Obviously the little motor won't get into the tens unless we "liberate" £500 by selling the 48 Dells and get a turbo (another £2k I reckon with the cam swap figured in), so are we better off getting rid of the motor complete and going for £3500 worth of 2276 and £800 worth of nitrous system? Both seem to be around £9500-£10k!

Thanks Neil
I am hoping to keep it under 10k,but we shall see

cheers richie

[richie]

Oyvind,
[hope I spelt that correct?]

Can you give me a rough idea on cost for all the work needed to a wbx case to make it usable inc type1 head stud pattern and what do you do about the lack of oil capacity? dry sump isnt in the budget ? how difficult are main bearings to get? I know of one thats been done to type 4 mains,rear thrust,type 1 lifters,decked,flange crank still 4inch bore and it seems alot of money and seems difficult to get actually done,there are other anomilalies as well like front seal,pulley etc,fitting tin,if I got some of this wrong please let me know,nothing is not being considered at the moment[well except type 4 ]

cheers richie

I see John already have a example of what it may cost, so I think I leave that. But it comes down to how much you are able to do yourself in the end. For me I think it would only be machining the barrels and the holes in the case for the barrels I would have to pay for. I would choose to use a set of heads that comes with the wbx stud pattern.
When VW made the wbx engine, they took all their experience from type 1 and type 4 engine and made the best of both worlds. They went back to the type 1 case design, but made it in aluminium for better durability. Added the integrated oil filter, a larger oil sump, stronger crank, better flywheel mount design, better flywheel thrust design, larger clutch disk etc. My point is, you get a lot for free with the wbx case, which you normally have to add to the Typ1 case.
No problem to get the wbx crank bearings, vwpart, cip1 etc...

But I see your point to go with the type 1 case and off the shelf parts, my thought it was just an idea to save money and get durability

Here is a thread with a very nice oxy boxer http://www.vwnorge.no/index.php/topic,19860.450.html
Now i will not nag about it any more Richie 


Berger

Cant any of you post a link I can actually read and understand   I did find a way to translate a thread on there before,just got to remember how,any clues?


 and dont stop,maybe after this I will do a thread on the most expensive way to run 10s

cheers richie

[Neil Davies]

 and dont stop,maybe after this I will do a thread on the most expensive way to run 10s

cheers richie

That's easy, isn't a Bugatti Veyron something like £850,000?

[Berger]

Oyvind,
[hope I spelt that correct?]

Can you give me a rough idea on cost for all the work needed to a wbx case to make it usable inc type1 head stud pattern and what do you do about the lack of oil capacity? dry sump isnt in the budget ? how difficult are main bearings to get? I know of one thats been done to type 4 mains,rear thrust,type 1 lifters,decked,flange crank still 4inch bore and it seems alot of money and seems difficult to get actually done,there are other anomilalies as well like front seal,pulley etc,fitting tin,if I got some of this wrong please let me know,nothing is not being considered at the moment[well except type 4 ]

cheers richie

I see John already have a example of what it may cost, so I think I leave that. But it comes down to how much you are able to do yourself in the end. For me I think it would only be machining the barrels and the holes in the case for the barrels I would have to pay for. I would choose to use a set of heads that comes with the wbx stud pattern.
When VW made the wbx engine, they took all their experience from type 1 and type 4 engine and made the best of both worlds. They went back to the type 1 case design, but made it in aluminium for better durability. Added the integrated oil filter, a larger oil sump, stronger crank, better flywheel mount design, better flywheel thrust design, larger clutch disk etc. My point is, you get a lot for free with the wbx case, which you normally have to add to the Typ1 case.
No problem to get the wbx crank bearings, vwpart, cip1 etc...

But I see your point to go with the type 1 case and off the shelf parts, my thought it was just an idea to save money and get durability

Here is a thread with a very nice oxy boxer http://www.vwnorge.no/index.php/topic,19860.450.html
Now i will not nag about it any more Richie 


Berger

Cant any of you post a link I can actually read and understand   I did find a way to translate a thread on there before,just got to remember how,any clues?


 and dont stop,maybe after this I will do a thread on the most expensive way to run 10s

cheers richie

Here you go. You have been to Norway so many times, I thought there was no problem with the language.. 
http://translate.google.no/translate?hl=no&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vwnorge.no%2Findex.php%2Ftopic%2C19860.450.html

[kev d]

So I have been rummaging around through old shite in boxes,so far I have found the old header,the intake manifolds[heads are long gone] the cam[was swapped out when I went turbo] and I still have the nitrous set up,but want to do it with whats available now so proberly wont use it

Fonz can I have my gearbox and throttle bodies back? 

Frank I need those axles and cvs as well? 

Kev you dont need that crank/flywheel and rods for a while do you?

I do actually still know were alot of it is but that would defeat the object of this if I do it.


Had a clear out bud, all gone..
Good thread though!


Mmmm a wet miserable rainy day isnt good for the bank account

cheers richie

[Jon]

Cool thread Mr Webb.

Doing 10's on the cheap... And drive home. The triangle of speed sais no. But can it be done? ... I think that depends on what YOU mean by cheap.

Most things in life ends up costing more in the long run when you dont have the needed money up front.
Maybe supercharged engines dont follow this logic?
But if someone think they might, what base engine would give tens most reliable?

[Airspeed]

It is indeed a cool idea and one that will interest most everybody because as JHU put it: the triangle says no, however....
what cannot be underestimated here is the VAST knowledge Mr. Webb has with this subject. I think knowing 'exactly' what's neccesary and what not, is key here.
That experience is worth at least 5-10K alone 

[karl h]

this will definitely be a thread to follow
a cheap busbox conversion (stock ratios/no nosecone swap) would be very interesting
just for the fun of it, try a couple of runs without the bottle/slicks/stinger (real street trim), should do a 12??? 
i really like wbx conversions and have done a few, but if you dont take advantage of the bigger bore (at least 97), its better to stick to an aluminum type 1 case, heads will be much easier to get

[richie]

Cool thread Mr Webb.

Doping 10's on the cheap... And drive home. The triangle of speed sais no. But can it be done? ... I think that depends on what YOU mean by cheap.

Most things in life ends up costing more in the long run when you have the needed money up front.
Maybe supercharged engines dont follow this logic?
But if someone think they might, what base engine would give tens most reliable?

I know how much it will cost,as that figure is all I have to spend so i may have to do a little wheeling and dealing to get there,and yes cheap is a relative word,I think I could run 12s for less than 5000pounds,but it would be a very light car and not suitable to run 10s, carefull planning should help achieve this but we will see.

My ultimate aim will be to leave the race car at home next august and drive to norway,while I am there on holiday I will see if there is any local racing,if there is they maybe go to the track and see if I can do it there,any ideas?

maybe that is not achivable in the time scale but I will try and then who knows

cheers richie