How much money to run 10s in a street car?now with part2, The evolution to turbo

[nicolas]

also best thing I did to stop wheelhop was tie cage to torsion housing, it is amazing how much it moves when its not tied in

can you show a picture of how that is done. i am considering a cross member between the shock towers, but this is new to me or is it the downbars from the main hoop that go to the torsion housing insted of the shell near the wheel wells?

[Neil Davies]

Looks good   Mine braces across to shock towers as well, also best thing I did to stop wheelhop was tie cage to torsion housing, it is amazing how much it moves when its not tied in,

It's not something that most people think about. I didn't, even with a low 12-second car.
It surprised me when I sold Headstraight at the end of 2005 that there were some cracks in the body where the crossmembers join the ends of the heater channels. Not rust, but stress fractures. Of course the crossmembers are bolted to the end of the torsion tubes so they move with the that. I'd got a couple of bars joining the inner arches across the car and down to the end of the frame horns, and a couple more going forwards from them to the main hoop. If I'd have kept the car I would have removed the shock mounts and tied the torsion housings to those bars and mounted the shocks off them too.

[numbnuts]

This looks good, I want to fabricate something similar for my street car but that will not run a cage. I thought about bracing to the corner of the underside of the parcel tray and inner wing but I feel this may flex? Maybe I could run a bar inside the car behind the rear seat that this bolts to?
Any ideas?

[WhiteTrash]

also best thing I did to stop wheelhop was tie cage to torsion housing, it is amazing how much it moves when its not tied in

can you show a picture of how that is done. i am considering a cross member between the shock towers, but this is new to me or is it the downbars from the main hoop that go to the torsion housing insted of the shell near the wheel wells?

This is what Richie means. I had to do it on my car as the small tab from the torsion housing on which the floor pan sits, snapped straight through. Now the car launches better. The bars are just welded straight to the inside of the shock tower.
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[richie]

can you show a picture of how that is done. i am considering a cross member between the shock towers, but this is new to me or is it the downbars from the main hoop that go to the torsion housing insted of the shell near the wheel wells?

 

cheers Richie

[nicolas]

thanks! i can put that on my eternal to-do-list   

[Eddie DVK]

can you show a picture of how that is done. i am considering a cross member between the shock towers, but this is new to me or is it the downbars from the main hoop that go to the torsion housing insted of the shell near the wheel wells?

 

cheers Richie

Richie, on a mexican body there is a hole there to bolt the body to top of the torsionhousing.
Is that not the case in every beetle?

[Neil Davies]

can you show a picture of how that is done. i am considering a cross member between the shock towers, but this is new to me or is it the downbars from the main hoop that go to the torsion housing insted of the shell near the wheel wells?

 

cheers Richie

Richie, on a mexican body there is a hole there to bolt the body to top of the torsionhousing.
Is that not the case in every beetle?

There is, but that's why my car started cracking the body - the torsion housing was moving relative to the cage and frame forks and taking the body with it!

[spanners]

VW left the bolts out on late cars, 1302/3 models still had the fixings on the torsion tube but no bolts used, not sure about Brazilian production, one tweak I did on the cup cars was removing the rubber packing from the inner wing mountings and making it solid with a steel insert and a decent washer and bolt, I'd noticed how much the torsion tube moved while repairing rust bucket street cars so plenty of rear steer from toe change, tight regs stopped any real re enforcing being added unless factory, we could run front axle stiffeners for instance.

[baz]

Would something like the pic below be effective in a car without a cage?  Say the uprights from the framehorns were further to the ends of framehorns , more vertical than in the pic and connected to a plate welded to the luggage floor. Then a crossbar connecting the shock towers and diagonals down to the torsion housing?

[Eddie DVK]

can you show a picture of how that is done. i am considering a cross member between the shock towers, but this is new to me or is it the downbars from the main hoop that go to the torsion housing insted of the shell near the wheel wells?

 

cheers Richie

Richie, on a mexican body there is a hole there to bolt the body to top of the torsionhousing.
Is that not the case in every beetle?

There is, but that's why my car started cracking the body - the torsion housing was moving relative to the cage and frame forks and taking the body with it!

VW left the bolts out on late cars, 1302/3 models still had the fixings on the torsion tube but no bolts used, not sure about Brazilian production, one tweak I did on the cup cars was removing the rubber packing from the inner wing mountings and making it solid with a steel insert and a decent washer and bolt, I'd noticed how much the torsion tube moved while repairing rust bucket street cars so plenty of rear steer from toe change, tight regs stopped any real re enforcing being added unless factory, we could run front axle stiffeners for instance.

Ok clear.  

Oooh spanners did you see how Remmele braces his rear suspension on circuit cars
http://remmelemotorsport.com/bodengruppe.html

[spanners]

Thanks Eddie, yes, it is impressive, not wanting to piss on their fire, but it's a lot of tube work, IE weight, also air Jack turrets, a car like that will weigh in at over 1000 kg, it won't out turn and brake a 700kg car, plus I can't see any uk saloon race series that allow air jacks, again, weight, I get ill with anxiety if I see my race ready weight go over 800kg with me in the seat! That's with liquid cooling, rads, coolers, the lot, I then have to take parts of and throw them away, I don't know why I even have instruments, I never look at them and dream of a flyweight digi dash and minimal thin wall wiring, my shocks are over slung on the a arm and tie into the rear cage through the wheel box, the old shock towers are about to get the chop, but hey, off topic, but build em light as possible. 

[numbnuts]

Or this one which I like a bit more but doesn't tie into the cradle....

I think either of these will be OK on a street car with no cage, any opinions?

[Eddie DVK]

Thanks Eddie, yes, it is impressive, not wanting to piss on their fire, but it's a lot of tube work, IE weight, also air Jack turrets, a car like that will weigh in at over 1000 kg, it won't out turn and brake a 700kg car, plus I can't see any uk saloon race series that allow air jacks, again, weight, I get ill with anxiety if I see my race ready weight go over 800kg with me in the seat! That's with liquid cooling, rads, coolers, the lot, I then have to take parts of and throw them away, I don't know why I even have instruments, I never look at them and dream of a flyweight digi dash and minimal thin wall wiring, my shocks are over slung on the a arm and tie into the rear cage through the wheel box, the old shock towers are about to get the chop, but hey, off topic, but build em light as possible. 

whahaha he sells a lot off carbon parts too.

[baz]

Or this one which I like a bit more but doesn't tie into the cradle....

I think either of these will be OK on a street car with no cage, any opinions?

I like the last one best too, would additional bars connecting to the outer ends of the torsion housing work even better?

[Fiatdude]

I think that it needs to tie in with more of the car than what is shown -- -- I battled wheel hop with the oval and it didn't go away until I tied everything in with a RLR 6 point cage which had the down tubes to the frame horns....

[numbnuts]

Where on the frame horns does the rlr cage meet?

[Erlend / bug66]

I did this;

 


150mm * 150mm plates over and under parcel tray, and tied to the cage. Solid!

[Fiatdude]

Where on the frame horns does the rlr cage meet?

Where ever you want --- He gives you a plate and a piece of tubing and you can be place it where it works best for you

[numbnuts]

a few pics stolen from the funkenblitz website. They tie the frame horns to the parcel shelf





Maybe a combination of the 2? Tie the body into the parcel tray underside and also triangulate between the shock towers?

[leec]

I stole/used that set up when I ran the oval without a cage. It went 12.1 with that set up and never had any wheel hop and the firewall on my oval was never the best in terms of condition 

[numbnuts]

In terms of condition before or after?

[leec]

Sorry, meant it was a bit thin/wobbly before. This never got any worse after the above set up was used.

Lee

[numbnuts]

Well it seems like that may be the simplest and lightest solution for someone like myself that doesn't particularly want to run a cage, just to brace from the cradle to the parcel shelf underside only as per the funkenblitz images

[nicolas]

Well it seems like that may be the simplest and lightest solution for someone like myself that doesn't particularly want to run a cage, just to brace from the cradle to the parcel shelf underside only as per the funkenblitz images

i have thought about that as well, but i come to the conclusion that if you need that kind of bracing, you need a cage as well.

[Fiatdude]

Well it seems like that may be the simplest and lightest solution for someone like myself that doesn't particularly want to run a cage, just to brace from the cradle to the parcel shelf underside only as per the funkenblitz images

i have thought about that as well, but i come to the conclusion that if you need that kind of bracing, you need a cage as well.

X2 -- -- If you've got this type of HP to need this, You've got enough HP to really hurt yourself quickly..... and I can name quite a few of our predecessors that can vouch for this by either walking away from a crash or NOT....

[richie]

Its getting harder to find easy places to loose some weight on the car but I have been looking last few days, this was 1st place I thought of, I cut all the holes, then swaged the edge to put the strength back in total loss is 1.7lbs, not sure it was worth the effort as I probably ate more than that in xmas cake


cheers Richie

[andy198712]

which does raise a very good point.... this thread seems to miss the driver?

carbon helmet over a heavy one, maybe even 1kg there??!! more like 500grams but still.

also unless your pretty lean, you can loose KG's that way too.

just a thought  (given how much i've eaten over xmas  )

[richie]

which does raise a very good point.... this thread seems to miss the driver?

carbon helmet over a heavy one, maybe even 1kg there??!! more like 500grams but still.

also unless your pretty lean, you can loose KG's that way too.

just a thought  (given how much i've eaten over xmas  )

I did show scales with and without driver before, I am not a jockey that's for sure and it is a big problem trying to scale a car with a typical weight[170-200lbs] driver and nothing to offset the weight.

Last time I bought a new helmet I compared the carbon version to normal and it really isn't worth it, it was something like less than 1/2lb, real benefit would be in a circuit or rally car were the weight saving helps with fatigue

cheers Richie 

[henk]

The first kg's are always the easy one to loose.
But 1kg here 500gr there,... will make some difference in total as well.
And you can always use the seat to take passengers with you,those "drainholes" on the seat base may be handy

Henk!!!