My Road Trip Motor Progress

[rick m]

Who is a good source for WEBER jets.  I need to buy more for my assortment of Mains and A/Correction jets.

Rick M

[Zach Gomulka]

Aircooled.net

[Chris W]

Art at ACE.

[ESchey56]

If you are looking for the crank pulley bolt that is on Rick's motor. We make them at Competition Engineering out of stainless and they are .250 longer than stock
and you don't need a washer. Rick is a good customer of ours and sometimes he forgets where he buys his parts   

Thanks
Mike and the C/E crew

[rick m]

Mike....How can I forget? I can drive to CE in my sleep.  Just about ready to drop off the crank, flywheel, pulley and rods for Anne's buggy motor to be balanced.  Need you to check the valve job on the heads I am using too.  Will stop by next week.

RM

[modnrod]

. Rick is a good customer of ours and sometimes he forgets where he buys his parts   

Thanks
Mike and the C/E crew

HAHAHA! I used to be a parts guy for years. I had to remind friends where they got stuff from occasionally too! 

Just read the whole thread. VERY, VERY cool Rick, especially since I now know my cam/comp/flow combination should work well, since you've just made everything (size of motor, port CSA/valves, chamber, etc) a bit bigger then tested it for me.
Thanks for that.  My temps and climate are very similar to yours, just a bit warmer, both summer and winter.

I hadn't considered a "semi-hemi" as such, my own experience on V8s both as streeters but also drag street sedans is that the Ford 302 Clevo closed chamber works better than the open chamber, and the old Holden slant wedge chamber does the same compared to the newer open chamber Holden heads, so I hadn't really considered anything other than a blended very small chamber. I did however, want to modify the chamber shape a bit, I had envisioned a similar but smaller chamber shape and blending, but out on the plug side, and by using a screw-in insert into the spark plug threads and 10mm plugs also pull the plug back out of the chamber by 5-10mm. It's all in trying to centre the plug and "squish" the mixture into it, but by avoiding if I can doing any welding on the chamber or the heads. The "bathtub" would end up looking more like a "heart" with the plug in the tail.
Just to make it even more interesting, the chamber will need to CC out at about 48-50cc.

Second opinions, or am I overthinking the thing.........yet again!

[rick m]

I don't believe you are overthinking your ideas. I spent 3 months thinking through my cam selection (lift, valve opening and closing numbers, overlap) the size of the ports, the size of my venturies in my 48 IDAs, chamber design, exhaust size, etc.  It all worked out just as I wanted it to.  I like to take the time thinking about where I plan to drive the motor, what I am using it for, etc. Otherwise you end up building something that is an irritating experience.

Rick M

[modnrod]

Yeah, that sums it up. My aims are similar to yours, hence the similarity of parts chosen.

I pick the rev range I want, then the duration to suit, then IVC and overlap to suit comp and octane, then the smallest ports and valves I can get away with to feed it all. This is for a streeter, and I don't have any traffic lights within 200miles to encourage me to go bigger! 

Head chamber shape, and how the biasing suits the bowl entry and seats is where I'm at now, so your thread is right on time.

[Zach Gomulka]

My temps and climate are very similar to yours, just a bit warmer, both summer and winter.

Where in the hell (literally) do you live?? Not many places hotter than here in Phoenix.

[modnrod]

Gday Zach.
It's not that much hotter really.
I live 200 miles north of Perth WA. It's about 100miles from the coast and inland, and at 29*South. Anywhere in Oz that's further north than 30*South, and further inland than 100 miles, has similar temps give or take a couple of degrees. During the summer, it's mostly mid-20s*C overnight, and mid-40s*C during the day. I leave work at 2:30pm, and usually ride into a 20mph headwind/crosswind and the mid-40s.
Plenty of places hotter than here though. In the Gulf (Iran/Iraq) I remember the temps getting over 50*C (which it does here a few times a year) for 2 weeks in a row.........125F every day, phew!
Anyway, my little 1700-ish motor has to push my Superbug through the wind and up and down rolling hills in this for an hour at 65-70mph, hence the focus on the little details of deck height/chamber shape etc.

If I ever moved to the US for work, I've already told the "powers-that-be" that Arizona and New Mexico is fine thanks! Just like home!

[modnrod]

Just watched the clip of you getting out of your garage Rick........
Damn! That does look like around here!
 

[rick m]

Yeah...I imagine that where you are and our climates are very similar.

Rick M

[draven898]

rick great build thread( i just read thru all 7 pages )  and way to show people not to be so closed minded ! the videos rock !

[rick m]

Thanks Draven898.....Took me a few months to pull the motor down and make the mods but the driveability and performance of the motor on pump gas was worth it.  Will be enjoying it this spring. Now I need to get my rear deck lid and apron painted so it does not look like such a project.  :-)

Rick M

[axam48ida]

Who is a good source for WEBER jets.  I need to buy more for my assortment of Mains and A/Correction jets.

Rick M

Rick,  try pierce manifold in gilroy ca. 1-408-842-6667
They have almost every weber part available

[rick m]

Took the chop out tonight for the Last Supper of the 20 year old WOLFSBURG REGISTRY VW CLUB.  This is one of the oldest VW clubs in Arizona and it has a long running tradition and has had many great members.  Will miss the club but will still have some great and lasting friendships from our association with them.

The chop ran awesome. Smooth, driveable 2275 torque and horsepower...right where I wanted it.

Rick M

[Dalland]

I have been following this thread from the start and first of have to say hats of to Rick who has gone against the main stream thinking in the vw community and actually let us bullying him for what he does and believe.
Now a days we are talking much shit about the old hemi style heads, but I think that is mostly because not many people know about those few good things there is with doing the hemi style.
First of, when the hemi style came to America the fuel prices was low and fuel consumption wasn't on anyones mind.
At that time power was everything and to get more power they started pushing the compression higher.
But with higher comp you always get the risk of hotspots and self ignition, and here comes the hemi style into the picture.

When building an engine with the hemi style the bigger bowl will lead to a more balanced air temperature in the chamber so there is less change of self ignition.
So this way they could get higher comp on the same octane, and thereby more power.
Also known is that the good old American engines are low rpm engines and thereby flame speed is not an big issue.

But now a days with the fuel prices and climate changes we care more about the fuel efficiency and also VW engines are small high rpm engines.
This is where the hemi style is rubbish, the hemi style gives a bad concentration of the mixture and so a lower efficiency, also the flame has to travel further, something that is very difficult at higher rpm. So the solution is to introduce squish, this gives a better concentration of the mixture, and much more turbulent air.
That gives a faster flame front, faster explosion, higher efficiency.

But as we see in this thread, not all people is known with the good and bad things in the different designs and thereby judge by what they have heard from other people.
I shouldn't need to say it, but of course there is many more factors that I haven't mention and probably many more that I don't know about. 

So for a low rpm engine where torque are more interesting than MPG, this may still be a way to go.
I wouldn't do so, but I'm not an American.

[rick m]

Dalland....

My motor's rpms will not do much past 5000-5500. However,  I knew that going in and that is where I chose a cam design that would work there. Tuche' on your understanding of how the squish and the turbulence work with this chamber design. I have one other advantage...larger valves (intake and exhaust) are allowing more air/fuel at a lower RPM.  Ever looked inside a big block Chevy intake/exhaust port and the size of their valves?  Guess what? The valves on a 454 and the ports are pretty big but the cams are not.  They build truck motors for TORQUE and not drag racing.  The idea of making more torque down low is nothing new and it is very drivable power.

I followed the cam advice of a Chevy engineer who suggested smaller overlap and closing the valves sooner. He stated dynamic compression would work with my combustion chambers and the size of the valves and air flow at lower RPM would offset the smaller lift and help make fun, drivable power down low.  GUESS WHAT?  It worked! Again, am not trying to get into the 100mph club or have an 11 second street car. However, I can tell you that for stop light fun and drivability....this combination has been a lot of fun. It is not a slouch. I just have to shift at a lower RPM to stay in the power band.  I do not need killer spring pressures which means less wear and tear on the cam and valve train. I do not need to buzz it to rpms between 5000 and 7500 to feel it pull hard.  I just learn to drive it a little differently.

Rick M

[Brian Rogers]

Have you driven it enough to get a feeling for fuel mileage ? I'm interested in doing something similare to what you' ve done.

[rick m]

Brian....to be honest with you I have been flogging it so much it has not been a good way to determine mileage.  I will drive it a little more conservatively and then give you an idea. It is such a fun motor....I guess I have not thought much about the mileage factor.  I will be doing some road trips soon and will give you an idea after that measure.

Rick M

[Dalland]

Hey Rick, I have no experience about the old big block engines, mostly because I'm only 22.
But I am lucky to have a good friend and teacher that must be one of the smartest engine developer in Europe.

He told about the amcar thinking about valve design and that they believed that slow rpm engines don't have the same "problem" with dynamic compression and that the inertia of the air will work against them and not with them as in high rpm engines. So thereby the used large valves to to have "all" the air it need ready behind the valve for the down stroke.

But then again, what is low rpm when it comes to the inertia of air?
It would be interesting to see tests from different valve size and designs on low rpm engines, but i will still believe that small valves and high air speed is the way to go.
When my teacher was working for Porsche in the eighties this was one of the things he was working with, and he is also a strong believer in small valves...
And than it is the question of the air/fuel mixture quality when the air speed slows down..

But please do some mileage tests, for what its worth my 2275 with 42mm valves and much squish runs 46 mpg on longer trips.

[andy198712]

46mpg?!?!?! Blimey! What's the details??

Yes what is low rpm? I'd be tempted to say most car engine are low rpm when compared to rpm's spun by bikes...?

[Dalland]

46mpg?!?!?! Blimey! What's the details??

Yes what is low rpm? I'd be tempted to say most car engine are low rpm when compared to rpm's spun by bikes...?

Hey Andy, no fancy parts just a good tune. parts listed here: http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,18639.0.html

To take an example from my new workplace, the Rolls Royce boat engines that are built runs normally at around 800-1100 rpm and they use as small valves as necessary...
Some of the reasons are already mentioned but it is also a thing to know that big valves are hotter valves because the seat area is the cooling area (yes also the stem), this is also one of the reasons that all car engines went from 2 -> 4 valves per cylinder, this was also around the same time as leaded petrol disappeared...

[rick m]

Dalland....

My intakes are 42 and exhausts are 37.5. When speaking low rpms....we are not really that low when you consider most diesels are truly the low rpm motors.  My motor runs great between 2000 and 5000 rpms. What kind of cam grind are you running?  I am curious about the 46mpg.  The best I achieved so far was about 33mpg on a 1915 I built with an engle 110 in it and dual 40IDFs.  I could have achieved better had I put my 36 Dellortos on it.

I can only go by what I know and that is how the car drives and performs.  That is my test bed. I will have to mount my video camera in the car and take it for a drive to illustrate the driveability and power down low.

RM

[Dalland]

I can only go by what I know and that is how the car drives and performs.  That is my test bed. I will have to mount my video camera in the car and take it for a drive to illustrate the driveability and power down low.

RM

You can't show drive ability one a video, dyno that shit and we know what you got.
(well I am not the guy to talk since since i still haven't tested my engine)...

Camshaft is a FK-8, all specs is in the link before..
As your topic name suggest, this is my road trip engine as I have been all over Europe with it and my old caravan.

[rick m]

I don't plan on spending any dyno time with the motor. In the 43 years I have been doing this and all the different combo's I have run, I had a pretty good idea what I wanted when I started.  I could careless about posting a dyno figure.  I was building for torque and not hp readings.

RM

[Dalland]

I don't plan on spending any dyno time with the motor. In the 43 years I have been doing this and all the different combo's I have run, I had a pretty good idea what I wanted when I started.  I could careless about posting a dyno figure.  I was building for torque and not hp readings.

RM

For what its worth, the dyno measures torque..

[Zach Gomulka]

I don't plan on spending any dyno time with the motor. In the 43 years I have been doing this and all the different combo's I have run, I had a pretty good idea what I wanted when I started.  I could careless about posting a dyno figure.  I was building for torque and not hp readings.

RM

For what its worth, the dyno measures torque..

My thought exactly! Can't get hp without it

[modnrod]

I rekn torque is measured best by the bum. 

If you're cruising along at 100kph in top, roll up behind a slow roadtrain doing 90kph, sneak out a bit to check it's clear down the road, then still as a top gear roll-on, PUNCH it......
.......that's torque.

If your new motor is doing 140kph at the front of the roadtrain instead of 130kph that the old one would do, you have more torque.
Simple really.
 

[rick m]

Dalland...
I've been around plenty of dyno's. Just stated I was not intending to dyno my motor. Not necessary for what I am doing.

Good comment modnrod. :-)

RM