My Road Trip Motor Progress

[rick m]

ZACH....Your comment about the HEMI CUT increasing the surface area is actually not accurate.  It increases the VOLUME...but look at the design I posted and ask yourself, if you take the wedge design and calculate all the surface area with the corners, which has more surface area?  Plus, which has the bends and corners that are known to contribute to detonation issues?  There is something to learn here GRASSHOPPER.  :-)

RM

[Taylor]

So what does the piston look like? You eluded to it being special.

[Joel Mohr]

Not to mention the benefit of unshrouding the valves...

[rick m]

Taylor,

The piston is nothing special. You can run a flat top...providing you have valve clearance. I actually have eyebrows in mine...with the k8 cam. There are a lot of combos you can run.  Did you see my sketch?  The focus I have is on eliminating surface area and all the corners in favor of a better design for pump gas.

RM

[OC1967vw]

RickM and Joel,
Well stated.

[Taylor]

I am not saying it won't work, I am questioning whether or not it would make the same power, with the same compression, as a wedge head? Once you hog out the chamber and then flycut the head to get your compression back you are having to notch the pistons, adding to the surface area you find so critical. That wouldn't be necessary with a wedge head running 8.5 to 1 and around .580 lift.  Also,  if you have a quench pad on a chamber and .050-.060 deck, that isn't the area where detonation would occur anyway. A flat quench pad doesn't turn into a glow plug.  Joel claims to have a hemi style head on his car,  which I believe they started,  BUT... his 2442 has 11.2 to 1 so that means that supposing he runs .060 deck with around a 4ccc notch in the piston for the .600+ lift that puts his heads at 45cc much to small to really be a hemi style. Or maybe he does have a trashcan....I mean hemi style chamber,  than he has domed pistons.  

[rick m]

Taylor,

In my application I am not trying to run 10 or 12 to one compression.  If I was, I would be running a domed piston in the hemi chamber that was profiled to be a reverse match to the combustion chamber with valve pockets in the piston.  That is just my opinion.

My focus is on a street motor that will run on pump gas, make reasonable power, not over-heat or detonate and be dependable no matter what pump I pull up to, whether it is Billy Bob's gas station in Oglalla, Nebraska, or a good quality gas from a big known producer.  I don't think in terms of who has the fastest car on the block. Already went through all that about 30 years ago. My focus is driving anywhere, at any time, in any temps, with any variety of crap that comes out of a pump from Arizona to the East Coast (or West Coast) and back.  I don't try to mix a drag racing combo with a street combo. That story is getting too old to keep kicking to death.

I cannot speak to what others are doing but I do know the hemi chamber will work in a lot of different configurations, even with more compression, providing the piston combo with the head is correct.  I cannot speak to what others are doing in this area.  I just know the open chamber works well for what I have done and will return to doing.

Rick M

[OC1967vw]

RickM and Joel,

would like to here more about your thinking on the open chamber mods-have beaten my GBE tech articles to death on heads/head design/flow/driveability.
what mods have you discovered/tested/found to work since Gene wrote about them years ago .

RickM, appreciate your thinking on driveability and recognize that your thoughts seem to mirror the issue of driveability/longevity GB wrote about.
thanks

[javabug]

I try real hard not to drink anybody's Kool-Aide, but the VW world is notorious for stagnant thinking. The problem with the old semi-hemi stuff always seemed to be the chambers and resultant low compression. Bad combo. But if we're now shallowing up the chamber and putting some real compression to it, then it might be worth a try?

Where are the dished pistons? Let's take some of the chamber out of the head and put it in the piston.

[Joel Mohr]

0 deck and 56cc chambers...I'm not here to argue, frankly I have more important things to do. If you don't beleive it, just go away. I am trying to spread evidence of new technology to help benefit the hobby. What I have done is taken Gene's theory to the next level. After examinng many other types of chamber designs, I decided to try this as an alternative to actually CNCing a modern shape...

[Zach Gomulka]

Three pages deep and you still haven't spilled your compression ratio!

The drawing you posted is for the guy who wants 7:1 compression on a 2 liter plus engine. He has the option of adding a ton of deck (which we can all agree is bad) or hemi-ing the chambers. Of course the surface area is greater when you are using all that deck surface as combustion chamber, but when it's tight (.040"-.060"), you can't really consider that as an equal part of the chamber.

The smart builder knows to smooth the bends and corners in a wedge head. You don't have to hemi cut to achieve that.

I still don't buy that the hemi will outperform the wedge with all other things being equal. Burn is too slow. Twin plug it, then it may show an advantage.

[rick m]

Johl is right...I ran around 9.0 to 1 in my 2110 that I drove to Detroit, Michigan, and back, in 1997.  You can get to 56cc in these type of heads. That is what flycutting is for.  I agree with Johl....if you don't like it....don't do it.  However, for those of us willing to tear down a motor and redo heads just to prove a point, we are the doers and not the talkers.  There are a lot of pontificators on these forums who have not done what they have opinions on.  I like to use my own vehicle as a test bed for ideas and will do so with this round of testing....or I would not have torn it down to go back to a design I know works.

It is hillarious that people who have done very little of what we are addressing are so knowledgeable on the subject.  Proof is in the pudding.  My motor will not be 7.1 compression.  I would not run that low a combo if you gave me free parts. IT will be close to 9 to 1 with "0" Deck, another thing we did in my 2110cc motor.  What we are doing...where I agree with Johl,... is taking the hemi chamber to another level. The technology for this is not new....and yes, it does work.

I use a close friends motor as a great example.  Don Bulitta's motor (realistically) with his 94s now on the engine,  probably makes somewhere around 8.4 to 8.5 to 1 compression.  He would have to verify that.  He had his wife throw me the keys one night and let me drive it.  CLYDE BERG did the heads for it and yes...they have the massaged hemi chamber.  If you want to ride in a fun car....this motor with the 5 speed is a blast to drive. Pulls very hard, has incredible torque and guess what...can run pump gas.  Don's is just one of many combinations like this.

When I got my CNC CB heads....I decided to run the combustion chamber design that came with them out of the box....after going over the combustion chambers to debur and prep everything to help alleviate potential detonation points.  It was against my better judgement after already having hemi style heads with 9.0 to 1 compression.  I did my own ports and then assembled the motor.  It would run absolutely cool and fine while driving like a stocker.  It did not have heating issues. However, hammer it and take it to 6500 a few times or push it over 100mph for sustained bursts and it would not go below 220.  No motor I have ever run has has this issue, even a turbo-charged motor.  I spent hours on tin fit, cooling mods, oiling mods, you name it. So, the verdict....tear it down and go over the heads to reduce the chamber surface area and reset compression. That is where I am at.  The motor will be assembled and back in by Labor Day...so I will have plenty of ambient heat to test it out with. I will post the results.

Everyone can do what they like.  I will be close to 9 to 1 on my motor, similar to what my 2110 cc motor was.  Heads can become a heat sink. Less area in the combustion chamber means less heat retention.  The sketch I did about volume vs the surface area discussion was not about a 7 to 1 compression motor. It was about combustion chamber design.

Our push in 1996 to drive our cars with big engines 5000+ miles was to dispel that a motor big cannot live and be dependable driven long distances.  So, the next challenge is proving higher compression motors with different combustion chamber designs can be driven with more compression even on 89 octane gas. I am not trying to drive to the track and run 12 second passes.  The proof, which I already know works, will be in the results...which will get posted when it is back on the road. The squishy concept has already been proven....I am just approaching it a little differently.

My focus is making great torque, with pump gas, achieving low temps for sustained periods in 110+ degree temperatures.  In Arizona we do not have the luxury of the median temps of Orange county or the San Fernando valley area.  It does get hot there but not like Arizona.  Getting a 2200cc motor to run in the Arizona temps is in a different class of its own.

Rick M  

[OC1967vw]

Joel and RickM,
count me in.....
Excellent points made. I ran into the same here regarding removing auxiliary venturies despite the factual evidence that such a modification had been done in Britain in the early 70s without any noticeable performance improvement.  The arguement was somewhat simplistic-that because it was tried already, that such thinking was impeding improvement. The problem with this was that "new exploratory thinking" was framed in a way that disregarded all documented laws of physics and mechanical engineering, in particular airflow, that are used the world over. I certainly am one that appreciates change when there is noticeable performance achievement not limited to the quartermile.

Joel, will be contacting you via pm about heads

Appreciate your thinking and taking the tried and true Berg way to another performance level.

[Zach Gomulka]

Rick, tell us all of the changes being made to your engine this go round.

[Taylor]

No offense or personal attack here, just never heard of anyone hemi cutting a VW head on purpose, only out of necessity.   I have a swimming pool for a piston in my motor.  Good luck to you....Taylor

[rick m]

Taylor,

Wish I had my old BERG thick crown pistons to post a shot of. I sold them to someone on the CLF but cannot remember who bought them. I used a combination of a sligthly opened chamber and a dished piston in my 2110. It worked fantastic. Used an MSD ignition...which I also liked. Never did a jet change in the motor on the BERG 97 cruise....regardless of the town we passed through, elevation, weather, etc. Got over 24 mpg with Dellorto 48s on the road trip (5200 miles round trip) and never over heated.  Did a 100mph blast against a mustang GT somewhere in the middle of Wyoming on hwy 80.  Was a great motor and had between 8.5 to 9.0 compression.

A lot of different combos work. That motor had a really small PAUTER cam but the combination of the cam overlap, combustion chamber design and static compression we set worked incredibly well.

ZACH....I will post all changes made.  I am staying with the same cam/rocker arm combo so I can do a comparative analysis on the results to the cooling and performance.

Rick M

[Stripped66]

FWIW, the problem with these arguments is that, historically, most VW enthusiasts can't tune their way out of a wet paper sack, and they compound this issue by picking the choice characteristics from different philosophies of engine-building expecting them to work well with one another when put together. IMO, if you have detonation with 8.5-9.0 CR with either a wedge chamber or a semi-hemi chamber, then you've done something wrong; you either have a complete mis-match of engine components elsewhere that is independent of the combustion chamber, you can't tune your engine, or both. Kudos to Joel and Rick for shirking the dogma, refining their combos and showing it can work. It doesn't follow the engine-building philosophy that I adhere to at all, but there's more than one way to skin a cat. And just because you or anybody else couldn't successfully do it doesn't mean it can't be done.

[Joel Mohr]

Thank you Stripped...The CB Wedgeports from Bills 2387, 122 Web cam, only .506 x 288 and it makes about 200 hp at 9.7 to 1

[dyno don]

.....Just my 2 cents worth but I was there in the beginning when the original R&R testing was performed @ 7. and 7.5 and one engine at 8.5 later on...  and found that the optimal timing was 10 degrees avanced and that at 42 degrees made the most power  and made the heads really come alive with NO adverse criteria . Since then i have performed several teardowns from some mileage motors with this head design and can tell you first thand that the heads overall, looked Bitchin'. The chambers all looked good with no seat movement,or visible cracks, or distortions of any kind. The" heat sink" issues with most other heads(vw oem) are non existent with this chamber design and there is a lot to understand here in terms of changing the basic format as we all have come to learn and love. I realize that these were basic low compression models but the technology is the same across the board.  Rick M. and many others have had good experience first hand and I know Joel and of his relentless research on this subject and can tell you that his shit rocks the house and he has come a long way since being>> The little skinny grinning kid in the back ground/LOL...   I dont know if this has hindered or helped but just my 2 cents of input. Happy motoring to ALL.......   Dyno

[Joel Mohr]

Thanks Don... Does anybody realize that most modern motors run between 9 and 13 to 1 on 87 octane? It proves the envelope exists, and all we need to do is adapt our little air cooled to modern technology...to make more power with the same temps. And one facet of this development is spark curve. Right now we are just "fidddling about" with the 009 because it's the most readily available. With CBs new programable distributor the options may grow...put THAT in your hat rack! 13 to 1 on 87???

[rick m]

I thank you too Stripped!  Smokey Yunick, the famed V8 engine builder, is one of my heros.  He did many unconventional things that others said would not work but guess what...He kicked everyone else's butt!

Being a business person I read a lot.  There is a book out that was written in 1963, by author Thomas Kuhn, called "The Structure of Scientific Revolution". The whole premise of the book is that the greatest BREAKTHROUGHS in science, business and industry, came from BREAKS WITH OLD WAYS OF THINKING!

Like Johl, I found out that my modified hemi (open chamber design) has a great deal more to do with motor heat dissipation and equalized squish across the entire piston area than I thought.  I got caught up in traditional ways of thinking for awhile too. Finally, after struggling with heat issues when I first moved to Arizona in 1982, I had an epiphany when I finally realized the traditinoal wedge head combination that was creating the most issues for me. Mike Fischer years back talked me into one of the first hemi type designs and I modified it beyond the machined finish, much like Johl does.  This is why after my out of the box wedge chambers did not perform the way I wanted, I did not hesitate to rip my new heads right back off my motor and revert to a design I know works.  I like your statement that just because others could not figure out how to make something work does not mean it will not work. Never were truer words spoken.

Dyno... thanks for your input too.  I have first hand, personal experience with the chamber design.  In fact, I was pleased to hear from someone who posted on this thread who bought some old modified hemi chamger heads I had done over 10 years back.  He used them, loved them and wish he still had them. The design works.  Bill Rogers can confirm this too...as his baja has a giant motor with the hemi heads which Johl Mohr assisted with, it makes serious horsepower. Bill lives in Carson City, Nevada, where the elevation is also higher. He loves the combo from his feedback to me.

Our hobby is hilarious at times.  Truly there are those who think just because someone else could not make it work that no one can. Pretty limited, shallow thinking. I simply let it flow in one ear and out the other because I work to validate a process rather than comdem it before I have personal experience it will not work. In a few weeks I will be having fun when I get my 2275 back together and fire it up and go out and prove a point. I will not forget Gary Berg's face at the Bug-In last spring when I told him I had bolted on some heads to my street motor with the traditional chamber.  He got a pretty funny smirk on his face....and I knew why.  I had gone against what I have already proven would work with an open chamber head.

Johl,  all we can do is continue to enjoy what we've learned and let others simply keep telling themselves that their way is the only way. In the meantime, we can continue sharing with those who will listen. I will be taking pictures as I re-assemble my motor and post them.  I don't have any issues sharing things I have found helpful.

Rick Mortensen

[richie]

Rick,

I am listening,I like to think I am not too blinkered to ignore something that works,will be interested to see how you get on with the engine now,I can see some benifits of opening up the chamber,semi hemi or in other ways,and then flycutting them down to get your required compression.

One thing I ask,can you please spell Joel's name correctly



Joel what you are doing is also very interesting,but as you are looking to these modern fuel efficient lean burning cars,arent you missing the most basic change in modern cars to our antiquated old VWs, EFI? I am sure CBs new distributor will give advanges over a 009,but there is so much left on the table to be had with EFI

Just my thoughts

cheers richie

[rick m]

Richie...will be posting some shots as I start the assembly. I am not in to the 7 to 1 compression motors.  I am purely a fan of the open chamber with higher compression. With the new thick crown heads....it gives you the meat to do the mods and still have a strong upper chamber cross section.  I will stay in touch with you.

How is that nasty pro mod vert of your running. Hit the 8's yet? I have not stayed up on your ETs.

Rick M

[peach_]

Taylor,

Wish I had my old BERG thick crown pistons to post a shot of. I sold them to someone on the CLF but cannot remember who bought them. I used a combination of a sligthly opened chamber and a dished piston in my 2110. It worked fantastic. Used an MSD ignition...which I also liked. Never did a jet change in the motor on the BERG 97 cruise....regardless of the town we passed through, elevation, weather, etc. Got over 24 mpg with Dellorto 48s on the road trip (5200 miles round trip) and never over heated.  Did a 100mph blast against a mustang GT somewhere in the middle of Wyoming on hwy 80.  Was a great motor and had between 8.5 to 9.0 compression.

A lot of different combos work. That motor had a really small PAUTER cam but the combination of the cam overlap, combustion chamber design and static compression we set worked incredibly well.

ZACH....I will post all changes made.  I am staying with the same cam/rocker arm combo so I can do a comparative analysis on the results to the cooling and performance.

Rick M

Johl is right...I ran around 9.0 to 1 in my 2110 that I drove to Detroit, Michigan, and back, in 1997.  You can get to 56cc in these type of heads. That is what flycutting is for.  I agree with Johl....if you don't like it....don't do it.  However, for those of us willing to tear down a motor and redo heads just to prove a point, we are the doers and not the talkers.  There are a lot of pontificators on these forums who have not done what they have opinions on.  I like to use my own vehicle as a test bed for ideas and will do so with this round of testing....or I would not have torn it down to go back to a design I know works.

It is hillarious that people who have done very little of what we are addressing are so knowledgeable on the subject.  Proof is in the pudding.  My motor will not be 7.1 compression.  I would not run that low a combo if you gave me free parts. IT will be close to 9 to 1 with "0" Deck, another thing we did in my 2110cc motor.  What we are doing...where I agree with Johl,... is taking the hemi chamber to another level. The technology for this is not new....and yes, it does work.

I thank you too Stripped!  Smokey Yunick, the famed V8 engine builder, is one of my heros.  He did many unconventional things that others said would not work but guess what...He kicked everyone else's butt!

Being a business person I read a lot.  There is a book out that was written in 1963, by author Thomas Kuhn, called "The Structure of Scientific Revolution". The whole premise of the book is that the greatest BREAKTHROUGHS in science, business and industry, came from BREAKS WITH OLD WAYS OF THINKING!

Like Johl, I found out that my modified hemi (open chamber design) has a great deal more to do with motor heat dissipation and equalized squish across the entire piston area than I thought.  I got caught up in traditional ways of thinking for awhile too. Finally, after struggling with heat issues when I first moved to Arizona in 1982, I had an epiphany when I finally realized the traditinoal wedge head combination that was creating the most issues for me. Mike Fischer years back talked me into one of the first hemi type designs and I modified it beyond the machined finish, much like Johl does.  This is why after my out of the box wedge chambers did not perform the way I wanted, I did not hesitate to rip my new heads right back off my motor and revert to a design I know works.  I like your statement that just because others could not figure out how to make something work does not mean it will not work. Never were truer words spoken.

Dyno... thanks for your input too.  I have first hand, personal experience with the chamber design.  In fact, I was pleased to hear from someone who posted on this thread who bought some old modified hemi chamger heads I had done over 10 years back.  He used them, loved them and wish he still had them. The design works.  Bill Rogers can confirm this too...as his baja has a giant motor with the hemi heads which Johl Mohr assisted with, it makes serious horsepower. Bill lives in Carson City, Nevada, where the elevation is also higher. He loves the combo from his feedback to me.

Our hobby is hilarious at times.  Truly there are those who think just because someone else could not make it work that no one can. Pretty limited, shallow thinking. I simply let it flow in one ear and out the other because I work to validate a process rather than comdem it before I have personal experience it will not work. In a few weeks I will be having fun when I get my 2275 back together and fire it up and go out and prove a point. I will not forget Gary Berg's face at the Bug-In last spring when I told him I had bolted on some heads to my street motor with the traditional chamber.  He got a pretty funny smirk on his face....and I knew why.  I had gone against what I have already proven would work with an open chamber head.

Johl,  all we can do is continue to enjoy what we've learned and let others simply keep telling themselves that their way is the only way. In the meantime, we can continue sharing with those who will listen. I will be taking pictures as I re-assemble my motor and post them.  I don't have any issues sharing things I have found helpful.

Rick Mortensen

I use a close friends motor as a great example.  Don Bulitta's motor (realistically) with his 94s now on the engine,  probably makes somewhere around 8.4 to 8.5 to 1 compression.  He would have to verify that.  He had his wife throw me the keys one night and let me drive it.  CLYDE BERG did the heads for it and yes...they have the massaged hemi chamber.  If you want to ride in a fun car....this motor with the 5 speed is a blast to drive. Pulls very hard, has incredible torque and guess what...can run pump gas.  Don's is just one of many combinations like this.

When I got my CNC CB heads....I decided to run the combustion chamber design that came with them out of the box....after going over the combustion chambers to debur and prep everything to help alleviate potential detonation points.  It was against my better judgement after already having hemi style heads with 9.0 to 1 compression.  I did my own ports and then assembled the motor.  It would run absolutely cool and fine while driving like a stocker.  It did not have heating issues. However, hammer it and take it to 6500 a few times or push it over 100mph for sustained bursts and it would not go below 220.  No motor I have ever run has has this issue, even a turbo-charged motor.  I spent hours on tin fit, cooling mods, oiling mods, you name it. So, the verdict....tear it down and go over the heads to reduce the chamber surface area and reset compression. That is where I am at.  The motor will be assembled and back in by Labor Day...so I will have plenty of ambient heat to test it out with. I will post the results.

Everyone can do what they like.  I will be close to 9 to 1 on my motor, similar to what my 2110 cc motor was.  Heads can become a heat sink. Less area in the combustion chamber means less heat retention.  The sketch I did about volume vs the surface area discussion was not about a 7 to 1 compression motor. It was about combustion chamber design.

Our push in 1996 to drive our cars with big engines 5000+ miles was to dispel that a motor big cannot live and be dependable driven long distances.  So, the next challenge is proving higher compression motors with different combustion chamber designs can be driven with more compression even on 89 octane gas. I am not trying to drive to the track and run 12 second passes.  The proof, which I already know works, will be in the results...which will get posted when it is back on the road. The squishy concept has already been proven....I am just approaching it a little differently.

My focus is making great torque, with pump gas, achieving low temps for sustained periods in 110+ degree temperatures.  In Arizona we do not have the luxury of the median temps of Orange county or the San Fernando valley area.  It does get hot there but not like Arizona.  Getting a 2200cc motor to run in the Arizona temps is in a different class of its own.

Rick M  

All very interesting and cant wait to see some results , Id never head of hemi cut heads on a vw, will there be any more build pictures of the heads and pistons? 

cheers

[Joel Mohr]

Yes, I understand that EFI is a major consideration, but after the fuel is delivered, the valve closes. Then it's up to the conditions within to fire the charge, and make the most of it. THAT is the envelope I'm working on...

[rick m]

Joel....I agree. The head does not know what method of fuel delivery is being used.  Fuel management is different than combustion chamber design and efficiency. They work in synergy but each has its own parameters of efficiency.

Rick M

[richie]

EFI is so much more than that,the ECU gives the ability to control everything going on in the car,now you are sounding like those that you critisize, your not being open minded to learn new things?   just messing guys,but it does come across like "do as I say.not as I do"

Anyway as this is the Cal look section of the lounge I will stop my talk of efi as its nothing to do with cal look is it

[rick m]

Richie....on the contrary..I agree with you about the engine management capability with computers and EFI.  I am not criticizing anyone.  Just suggesting they don't hold such a closed opinion on the hemi or open chamber design. It almost sounds like everyone thinks the only motor you can build with an open chamber design only has 7 to 1 compression.  That was just one mans opinion.  We are talking about putting more compression to the design and taking advantage of it.

My discussion is primarily around the naturally aspirated carburetor motor... I am definitely not advocating that what I am trying is something anyone has to do. In fact, an open chamber or hemi type head is better for supercharged applications too. Think about it for your turbo configuration. :-)

Here is a quote off the www.corvettefever.com website about open chamber heads:

"The first open chamber appeared in '69 ZL-1 aluminum heads. Cast iron heads with open chambers first appeared in late 1970 for the '71 model year. Without question, a big-block will produce more power with open-chamber cylinder heads. In fact, the improved air flow and combustion efficiency offered by the open-chamber design is frequently sufficient to more than offset the loss in compression ratio (which can be over a full point) produced by the increased combustion-chamber volume."

Read more: http://www.corvettefever.com/techarticles/corp_0611_chevy_big_block_cylinder_heads_pcv_valves/viewall.html#ixzz23YaGZQUT

Just some more good information to show this is nothing new.

I like trying new things and not getting stuck in a rut.

Rick M

[Zach Gomulka]

When we get this settled we should move on to religion and politics.

[Joel Mohr]

Settled? If you're not open or accepting, go on your merry way....I'm not arguing...just stating my findings...