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Author Topic: Clutch tech  (Read 103461 times)
MeXX
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« on: November 03, 2012, 23:11:27 pm »

This threat is dedicated to all who are trying to accelerate as hard as allowed by the laws of physics.
Especially to those who are using more than a Kennedy pressure plate.

As the clutch is the link between the engine and the track, that makes you launch by slipping the right amount
to accelerate and not to smoke tire.

Everything is welcome, that works and that doesn't.

[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]

MeXX
« Last Edit: November 03, 2012, 23:15:25 pm by MeXX » Logged

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MeXX
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« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2012, 14:19:40 pm »

Here is an example from my Mexxspeed Drag Ghia, that didn't work like expected:

The setup is:

lightweight aluminum flywheel with cromoly thrust face.
Black Magic disc
lightweight aluminum pressure plate with Kep stage 4 diaphragm
lightweight aluminum floater with cromoly thrust face.

[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]

The good thing was it had a very soft engagement that made the launching very easy.
This soft engagement leaded to too much slippage touring the burnout.
Although it could hold the torque easily it could not handle the heat.

Just working on a new setup

MeXX
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 14:21:13 pm by MeXX » Logged

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dragvw2180
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« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2012, 15:59:35 pm »

 When I ran a stock flywheel ( wedgemated ) on my N/A cars I really did not have very many problems with either slippage or transmission breakage, my turbo car has been another thing all together. Since going to a turbo setup I have been plagued with clutch and tranny problems. I invested in multiple clutch combos and differant pressures to try to find the magic combo that would give me the performance and reliability I wanted. The clutch setups I have tried are both single and double discs with clutch management systems . Last year and a half I went through 7 ring and pinions plus cases and machine work ( timkin bearing mods, r/p machining for timkin, ect... ) so I spent a considerable amount of money trying things. Last fall when Ron Lummis came out with his REV6 setup I jumped on board and it was the best investment I made. My 60 ft times improved ( 1.35 - 1.40 with no burnout , I have not had to touch my tranny all season and it is still together. This is a video of my car at Darlington ( red car ) , notice NO burnout,watch first few feet and you will see 2nd gear change because it goes higher.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/FJZrEFElU24" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/FJZrEFElU24</a>

                   Are there better setups, maybe, but I am extremely happy.  I owe Ron Lummis a big thank you and hope my info can help someone else. Mike McCarthy

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MeXX
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« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2012, 16:24:33 pm »

Looks like the car really launches;

and as your transmission is still OK it also
has the right amount of slippage.

Is it single or dual disc setup?

Here are onbord videos from my car, as you see it launches smooth but not fast:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/T2ODLX6WXuc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/T2ODLX6WXuc</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/M4Tv44bkIbw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/M4Tv44bkIbw</a>


MeXX
« Last Edit: April 29, 2021, 07:46:23 am by MeXX » Logged

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Udo
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« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2012, 19:37:24 pm »

What track is this ?

Sorry but you can not run that light flywheel and aluminium clutch parts in your engine

Udo
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MeXX
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« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2012, 19:56:20 pm »

What track is this ?
Udo

The track is in Kunmadaras Hungary:
http://www.kunmadarasmotorsport.hu/web/en/
and it is definitely the best track I ever raced.

MeXX
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MeXX
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« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2012, 20:09:21 pm »

Sorry but you can not run that light flywheel and aluminium clutch parts in your engine

Udo

I will switch to a billet cromoly shoe an a centrifugal enhanced pressure plate.

MeXX
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Shag55
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« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2012, 21:27:41 pm »

Very nice engineering on that flywheel and Presure plate but I think the BM disk is to heavy for it.
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MeXX
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« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2012, 22:21:00 pm »

Very nice engineering on that flywheel and Presure plate

Here some further pix

[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]
[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]

MeXX
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dragvw2180
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« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2012, 00:56:51 am »

Hey Mexx,
              Mine is a dual disc setup but both are available.  Your car looks plenty fast !!!! Someone has spent a tremendious amount of time on your clutch setup , definately light. Mine is rather heavy but the package has a small outer diameter and very strong. Mike McCarthy
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MeXX
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« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2012, 16:11:31 pm »

Hey to everybody

I was asked why I run a floater on a single disc.

First I was running a Kennedy pressure plate but after a couple of runs I
had awful Tongue vibrations at high RPM and a slipping clutch. When I pulled my engine to look
what is wrong I saw that the rivets in the spring straps which connect
the pressure shoe to the cover were sheart, allowing the shoe to make a bad unbalance.

This was the reason why I made this clutch, which has a floater with 12 stands which guide
the pressure shoe and can hold the torque.

MeXX
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Shag55
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« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2012, 20:29:40 pm »

The BM disks create alot of heat. You can modify the shoe to get the right thickness and use twin Tilton disks. They don't like to much slippage but if you get the pressure right it will hold the power and still be light.
I'm setting mine up like this to try. My flywheel.
And disk
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325hp and 290# torque @17psi on 91 pump
383hp and 324# torque @23psi on 50/50 mix
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Shag55
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« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2012, 20:32:36 pm »

I don't believe the centrifical weights work for drag racing as you are always at high RPM so the weight is always being used. Rally or street maybe.
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325hp and 290# torque @17psi on 91 pump
383hp and 324# torque @23psi on 50/50 mix
Shag55.sl1racing@gmail.com
Facebook at SL 1 racing
MeXX
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World record holder 8.733 @ 255.658


« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2012, 21:08:14 pm »

I'm setting mine up like this to try. My flywheel.


Hi

Is this flywheel from megamashine  Huh

[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]

Do you run 2 discs and what type  Huh

MeXX


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MeXX
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« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2012, 19:10:24 pm »

Hi

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/SJgPu5o_E7M" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/SJgPu5o_E7M</a>

How a clutch should work  Grin


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/tDbrvUtNJfU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/tDbrvUtNJfU</a>

how it should not work  Embarrassed

MeXX
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richie
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« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2012, 23:04:19 pm »

Mexx

you have some very pretty looking parts there, but why do you need more than a kennedy pressure plate? the best 60fts by any rear engined VW in the world are done on kennedy pressure plates with a 1.16 being the best I know of Shocked


cheers richie
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BeetleBug
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« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2012, 07:09:12 am »

Hi

How a clutch should work  Grin

MeXX

Nice! Too bad we cant find a pressure plate and a flywheel that can take that kind of abuse.
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Shag55
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« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2012, 17:56:29 pm »

Yes it's a Mega.
The discs are twin tiltons, the PP is a McCload and I had Jack machine the floater for the right thickness so that my package is stock height.
I would have used the McCload disks but didn't want to space my tranny and the tiltons are lighter.
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325hp and 290# torque @17psi on 91 pump
383hp and 324# torque @23psi on 50/50 mix
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Facebook at SL 1 racing
MeXX
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World record holder 8.733 @ 255.658


« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2012, 09:59:52 am »

Yes it's a Mega.
The discs are twin tiltons, the PP is a McCload and I had Jack machine the floater for the right thickness so that my package is stock height.
I would have used the McCload disks but didn't want to space my tranny and the tiltons are lighter.

Hi

Is the PP a Mc Leod  Huh Huh
and do you know how much pressure it has ?
some Pix ?

MeXX
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MeXX
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« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2012, 10:18:31 am »

but why do you need more than a Kennedy pressure plate? the best 60fts by any rear engined VW in the world are done on Kennedy pressure plates with a 1.16 being the best I know of Shocked

cheers richie

dear richie

U are right 1.16 60fts is what we are all looking for. Grin
To be honest everything lower than 1.30 would make me more than happy.
My best time of 9.176 Grin was with a 1.560 Cry 60fts.
The good thing is that it should be possible to lower my 60fts to bring me into the 8's.
The bad thing is that it was not possible with a Kennedy stage 4 and a black magic disk.
BTW I was afraid running a casted iron pressure plate in my race car.
If you watch my videos closely you can hear how long I have to be on the clutch.

And my aim is to build a clutch that can handle starts on nitrous Shocked.

[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]


MeXX
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 12:43:09 pm by MeXX » Logged

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richie
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« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2012, 03:55:45 am »

Wow that 60 ft is awfull, you will have a very quick car when you get it figured out Smiley, I have best 1.22 so far,1.24 with a kennedy cover, and can run 1.25s on a poor track and high 1.20s on an un prepped track like bitburg, personally i wouldnt use tilton even if they payed me Shocked, but everyone has different ideas of what they can get to work Smiley



cheers richie
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MeXX
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« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2012, 08:23:31 am »

personally i wouldnt use tilton even if they payed me

cheers richie

Dear richie

I'm about 100% with U

Tilton is a very high quality stuff. But it's definitely not built for drag racing.
They can handle the torque (2 or 3 discs) an the heat easily, but they can not slip
very much, because as they slip they heat up and the friction coefficient rises very much
and they will lock up.

The only professional way for drag racing is the so called Black Magic.
There is no magic inside; it's basically the same material like all the big dogs use:
like Boninfante, Crower, Hays, Mcleod, Molinari, Ram, and East West
It's a 8" Sintered Iron Clutch Disc built by Raybestos.

Available compounds are 5135 and 5191:

The 5191 is a softer compound to allow more clutch slippage.
The 5135 compound is a little harder and more aggressive.


MeXX
« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 19:04:42 pm by MeXX » Logged

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Mike Lawless
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« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2012, 18:31:12 pm »

Are the readily available BM discs for VWs the 5191 or the 5135 compound?

Like dragvw2180, we are changing from a NA combo where we have used the McLeod light cone with a Kennedy 4 puk for quite a while with very good results, to a turbocharged combo. That light cone clutch will no longer be enough, so for the short term, I've elected to go with the "HD" cone McLeod. I wanted something better, but I'm already over budget to get the whole project done by the March Meet. (spent more on the fuel system than I figured.)

So, the McLeod is a compromise to cost as I already have the other components. I'm a little concerned about the pedal feel, but I will simply have to deal with it. I don't want to use the thin Tilton discs as I don't think they will withstand the rigors of clutch management.

Richie, I know you like the Kennedy dual, but I'll not buy another Kennedy as I (and others) had had the same problem MeXX mentioned about the shoe going off center and setting up a horrible vibration. Besides that, there is independent data out there that says the clamp load the Kennedy advertises is way off the mark.

Anyway, with HD cone in hand, I'd like to try different discs, which include a Clutchnet (USA made) 3 and 4 puck, and perhaps a black magic disc. All of theses will be used with hydraulic clutch management. Perhaps down the road, I can go with a better clutch. One of the ones I'm looking at is the 7.25" dual disc Tilton. This is not the thin disc unit every typically refers to as a "Tilton Clutch", but the complete self contained clutch. Easily adaptable to the "J&G" style flywheel.

I'll also look at the Rev6 from RLR. I disagree with my friend Shag on counterweighted clutches for drag racing as virtually every V8 racer there is uses them, and they are so far ahead of the VW world in clutch development that there is simply no comparison. Our biggest limitation is the bellhousing. The room available, as well as being able to make clutch adjustments for base pressure and counterweight changes without having to yank the motor out. A nice, small diameter "Long Style" pressure plate with that kind of adjustability is what I'd like!
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MeXX
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World record holder 8.733 @ 255.658


« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2012, 22:20:45 pm »


I disagree with my friend Shag on counterweighted clutches for drag racing as virtually every V8 racer there is uses them, and they are so far ahead of the VW world in clutch development that there is simply no comparison. Our biggest limitation is the bellhousing. The room available, as well as being able to make clutch adjustments for base pressure and counterweight changes without having to yank the motor out. A nice, small diameter "Long Style" pressure plate with that kind of adjustability is what I'd like!


Dear Mike

I'm with U

The more powerful your car gets & the longer you have to be on the clutch the more important it is that your clutch is built to slip and therefore to be able to handle the heat. Sintered iron is definitely the best material for slipping. When we carefully watch the Big Dogs
and they should know how to do, in most cases either centrifugal floater clutches or pressure plates which are centrifugal enhanced are used.
I know that the space is limited in our VW application, what made me to design a centrifugal enhanced  pressure plate with reversed counterweights. It took some time to finish the construction so that the counterweights have lower inertia when you are on the clutch which increases when you are off the clutch helping to lock up.
Yes there is a possibility to change the weights wo pulling the engine.
The drawings a just in the CNC shop. I hope they should finish the first prototype in about two weeks.

Stay tuned

MeXX  
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 12:15:33 pm by MeXX » Logged

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MeXX
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« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2012, 19:03:22 pm »

Are the readily available BM discs for VWs the 5191 or the 5135 compound?


Hi

There is a 8-inch Raybestos Sintered Iron Clutch Disc avaliable in 5191 or 5135 compound from:

Mc Leod

Sintered Iron Disc. LCF 5191 Compound $325  Cry
Sintered Iron Disc. HCF 5135 Compound $325  Cry

And much cheaper Cheesy:

Proformance Pros
W3974 Co. Rd. 374
Carney MI, 49812

906-639-7767

randy@proformancepros.com

(Item no: PPR08.0X) for $173.25

but you may have to change the centers to VW spline.

MeXX
« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 19:07:31 pm by MeXX » Logged

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richie
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« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2012, 19:35:18 pm »



Richie, I know you like the Kennedy dual, but I'll not buy another Kennedy as I (and others) had had the same problem MeXX mentioned about the shoe going off center and setting up a horrible vibration. Besides that, there is independent data out there that says the clamp load the Kennedy advertises is way off the mark.




Hi Mike

as you know I had clutch problems for a couple of years with kennedy covers and black magic discs,the clamping force definately was different from cover to cover as you mention,even though they were stamped the same,the double disc cover seems to be a different material and quality,still not perfect but much better Smiley  Again it has taken me a while to get a set up that "I" am happy with that works with my car weights and gear ratios,it certainly isn't for everyone, I ran it on the old car for a while and have switched to it on the new car this year, "I" didn't enjoy the Mcloud double disc experience Angry that we tried for a year on the new car even though it gave good 60ft results I didn't like it, but others have good luck with it.It will be interesting to see how you get on with other brand discs and CM.

There are lots of little tricks to getting these things to work and it can be frustrating learning them all to get something that works,hopefully it wont take you to long with your new combo Smiley

cheers richie
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MeXX
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« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2012, 20:01:00 pm »


I had clutch problems for a couple of years with kennedy covers and black magic discs,the clamping force definately was different from cover to cover as you mention,even though they were stamped the same.

cheers richie

Hi richie

Did you never have the problem that the rivets come loose ?

MeXX
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richie
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« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2012, 20:43:07 pm »


I had clutch problems for a couple of years with kennedy covers and black magic discs,the clamping force definately was different from cover to cover as you mention,even though they were stamped the same.

cheers richie

Hi richie

Did you never have the problem that the rivets come loose ?

MeXX

No I didn't,any I personally never broke one either,I have seen a few that the shoe broke but personally I only had trouble with distortion of the shoe,nothing more

cheers richie
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Airspeed
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« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2012, 11:17:35 am »

Perhaps down the road, I can go with a better clutch. One of the ones I'm looking at is the 7.25" dual disc Tilton. This is not the thin disc unit every typically refers to as a "Tilton Clutch", but the complete self contained clutch. Easily adaptable to the "J&G" style flywheel.

Funny enough, the thin disks ( I ordered semi-metallic and got thin disks which looked suspiciously like sintered iron and also 'squeecked' like them too) holded up pretty well, but the forged flywheel, floater and clutch hat shoe were all scored with blue marks and everything we all have seen too often.
I run the porsche G50 spline (= same as Mendeola) and not much available in other then 7,25" style plates.

Seriously considering going the other way and try 240mm original G50 diameter with a single plate again... (after I try out the thicker true semi-metallic Titon plates a friend has lying around new still)

Walter
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Shag55
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« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2012, 17:54:27 pm »

Sorry guys about my counterweight thoughts. I just couldn't get my brain to understand the idea. I guess there must be something to it though.
As for the Kennedy. I've had a hard time with mine but finally seems to be all sorted out now. It sure is a simple set up but I had a lot of trouble with disingagement even when sending everything to Kennedy to have them check it. After the faced of .020 from the hat and I put a .032 shim it seems to be fine.  Another problem was there disks material kept chipping off at the edges and scratching everything up. This last time I ground a chamfer around each pad getting rid of the sharp edge.
Maybe you could use the two Kennedy disks with the McCloud plate and hat. You will néed to shim it out about .200 though and don't know if it will clear the bell housing.
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325hp and 290# torque @17psi on 91 pump
383hp and 324# torque @23psi on 50/50 mix
Shag55.sl1racing@gmail.com
Facebook at SL 1 racing
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