Clutch tech

[Frallan]

I was going to ask about different weights like other floater clutch solutions with screws, nuts, washers.
This definately is a solution too.
You already figured out your combinations.  Nice!

[MeXX]

Hi

After hours of testing we finally found a material that is superior for the wearplates which is called Hardox 500
Just finished the slotted floaters and the clutch is ready for assembly.

[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]
lightweight aluminum flywheel



[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]
slotted Hardox 500 wearplate installed



[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]
Raypesto 5135 clutch disc



[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]
slotted Hardox 500 floater installed

MeXX

[BeetleBug]

Super nice!

[MeXX]

Super nice!

..and it's getting even nicer:

from parts to a centrifugal enhanced floater clutch

[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]
clutch parts



[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]
clutch fully assembled



[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]
side view


MeXX

[magic]

That is pure art!!!  

[Mike Lawless]

Nice work Mexx!

Some thoughts on clutches in general...
You all know how a well functioning clutch can make a car a joy to drive, and a clunky, hard to use clutch makes a car a pain to drive? Personally, I think operating a clutch should be a thoughtless thing to do. In other words, something that one does not think about.

After driving our new turbo combo for a half dozen runs now, and although the thing works, the "J&G" style McLeod 8" floater clutch with the  "heavy" hat, is anything but a joy. I think about it often. I think, "Damn, I HATE this clutch"

Yeah it works. The car goes, I can shift it.....most of the time. (I did miss a shift to high gear at the last outing)

I hope to change to something else soon. If there is any one word I can use to describe it's manners, it "hateful."

It's at the top of my list of stuff that needs to be changed.

[58vw]

nice work of art there mexx keep em coming

[DWL_Puavo]

Those centrifugal things are brilliant! How much does those centrifugal weights add to pressure in different rpm's? This design eeks out that it's not made out purely with hand tools, so maybe the centrifugal parts have alsobeen simulated?

If the centrifugally generated pressure add is very noticeable, it should be possible to do this kind of "hybrid clutches" (supposedly with more normal flywheel/disc/pressure plate setup) for street use also, so that you'll be able to use easy clutch that still can withstand way more torque with rpm's.

...and other thing that came to mind - it's easier to keep the foot firmly down on the clutch when you're starting to rev up at the tree, even it the pressure to your foot increases.

[MeXX]

Those centrifugal things are brilliant! How much does those centrifugal weights add to pressure in different rpm's? This design eeks out that it's not made out purely with hand tools, so maybe the centrifugal parts have alsobeen simulated?

If the centrifugally generated pressure add is very noticeable, it should be possible to do this kind of "hybrid clutches" (supposedly with more normal flywheel/disc/pressure plate setup) for street use also, so that you'll be able to use easy clutch that still can withstand way more torque with rpm's.

...and other thing that came to mind - it's easier to keep the foot firmly down on the clutch when you're starting to rev up at the tree, even it the pressure to your foot increases.

Hi

Yes CAD was involved and I did some calculating on the centrifugal forces on the counterweights that will put the pressure on the diaphragm, just check out <reply #58> to see how much. With 12 light counterweigths it's the base pressure is about doubled at 7500 RPM.
I hope it works like it looks.... will see on Saturday is the first track test.


So long

MeXX

[MeXX]

Hi to all

Yesterday I did my first race with the new clutch.
As there was absolutely no experience with the new parts it was more like a test & tune than a race.
The weather was f***ing cold ( -1°C in the morning and 3°C max at noon) the track was still prepped from the last year events which turned out to be very slippy.

1st run was with very moderate base pressure and counterweights and without nitrous.
Doing the burnout I recognized the clutch gripped very harsh making a good but short burnout.  
Car was staged at the line & revlimiter at 5500 RPM
Car launch fairly good no wheel spin at all RPM going down to 5200 clutch was slipping RPM went up and the clutch gripped very  good:

60 feet 1.492
1/8      6.442 @178,82km/h
1/4     10.042@215,59km/h

For this traction a fairly good and how it turned out the best run but damn 0.043s away from the 9s without nitrous.
As traction was really bad we decided to do all further runs wo nitrous.


2nd run was with the same setup but I decided to start a little bit more aggressive.
Doing again a good burnout the clutch gripped again very harsh.  
Car was staged at the line & revlimiter at 5500 RPM and I tried to launch a little bit harder.
Car launch fairly good but as the RPM was going up the clutch gripped and I had serious wheel spin destroying this run.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/1eUr5BBp1a4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/1eUr5BBp1a4</a>


60 feet 1.821
1/8      6.607 @181,31km/h
1/4     10.190@216,83km/h

A more and more leaking flywheel seal stop further testing after the 3rd run.

MeXX

[Airspeed]

Nice report, thanks.
For some strange reason, the first run often turns out to be the best one...

[dangerous]

Hi Mexx, is this engine normally aspirated plus nitrous?
Any engine pictures?
That is an awesome time  and speed NA on that poor traction!

[Taylor]

http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,20436.0.html

[MeXX]

Hi Mexx, is this engine normally aspirated plus nitrous?
Any engine pictures?
That is an awesome time and speed NA on that poor traction!

Dear Dave

Yep this is an normally aspirated engine and this run was wo nitrous (because of the poor traction)
The big aims for the 2013 season is to run 9.XX wo nitrous
and 8.XX on the bottle.
So let's keep the fingers crossed and hope for better conditions next time

So long

MeXX

[dangerous]

Thanks for the information MeXX and Taylor.
That is some very impressive numbers, what does it weigh with the driver aboard?

[mr horsepower]

Verry nice build Mexx.

But what are the disadvances of using an automatic or lenco style gearbox ?.
Wouldn that be better ?
They can be build to hold the torque and reduce the shockloads with no shift overlay
And as far i know you can stay on the throttle with no turbo lag .
In the future i would like to build an cvt tranny for my bug pullbelt style!
Soon i wil have my core in my shop .
Its just an crazy idea of my
I like to do wierd stuff.
I do regular rebuilds on cvt s ,and every time i testdrive them  i am amazed ho fast a car with a cvt accelerate compare to manual or autobox.

Jus an crazy idea

keep up the good work and keep the roof of your car towards the sky..

gr Henri.

[MeXX]

Verry nice build Mexx.

But what are the disadvances of using an automatic or lenco style gearbox ?.
Wouldn that be better ?

gr Henri.

Dear Henri

I do like Lencos I do not like automatic transmissions.

I will never use automatic transmissions as they kill power and will always slip a little bit and they will require no driving skills just release the trans break and count the seconds til U cross the finish line.
But more than once I was thinking how to modify a Lenco to work in our application  and I tell U the day will come.


MeXX

[MeXX]

.

[mr horsepower]

Hi Mexx how do you shift your car .Vertigate or h pattern?
I know autoboxes have converterslip but you wil get torque multiplication  back for it.
And if you will find a corvair powerglide you can swap the tc for an  normal clutch and shift it like an lenco
only two gears then.


gr Henri

[Turbo_Rich]

Hi guys some pretty full on stuff going on here, makes my set up look like old hat! Just want to pose a couple of questions regarding a more basic system.
Looking at a basic clucth management system used by a few members on here. I've got all the parts for the system as below.


My question is that once installed, the system is activated via a launch control/2 step button with the clutch peddle all the way down. When i drop the clutch i also release the launch control/2 step button. Surely this deactivate the solenoid and the fluid will take the path of least resistance rather than through the needle valve?

Would be interesting to hear how it works for others before installing it and finding more problems.

[Mike Lawless]

Rich, I have a similar system on the blue car. You need to implement a switch for low gear. Mine is built to activate off the shift coupler. It uses a lever switch. In first gear, it pushes on the lever switch. This way the solenoid is closed in low gear only, forcing fluid through the flow control. Once you pull it out of low gear, it goes inactive and operates normally.

I also installed a small light in the dash to indicate when it's powered.

While it is a "band-aid" to make up for a too-stiff clutch, it definitely works. Although it will slow the cars reaction time and 60 foot to a degree, depending on how much flow resistance there is. That was the primary reason I installed it in the first place. I wanted to slow the car's reaction to be able to dial in a .5 tree. It worked....sort of. But it was a bit inconsistent depending on the amount of heat in the clutch. So for the most part, my big plan backfired more often than it worked. Any clutch is like that. A counter-weighted clutch will also act differently with varying degrees of heat.

[Turbo_Rich]

I am going to run it off my launch control which only activates err on launch! 

I guess i'm just concerned that when releasing the launch control button the solenoid will open negating the system actually functioning as it should.

Maybe running it off the launch control isn't the best thing and I should try and hook it up to the gears as suggested?

The purpose is to try and stop it spinning up the tyres on launch which is a big issue at the moment especially for bracket racing and consistancy.

[Mike Lawless]

Without know how your launch control is configured, I couldn't suggest anything. For the flow control to work, the solenoid needs to be active for at least a fraction of a second after you drop the clutch.

[Turbo_Rich]

Cheers I'll go for a switch activated on 1st gear that will solve the issue. We'll see how well it pans out, just hoping for a small amount of slip to tame the wheel spin on launch.

[MeXX]

Hi to all

As it turned out although the hardox has been superior wear resistant it tended to wrap if it has to take to much heat.
So looking at the slotted wear plates they had absolutely no wear or scratches you can feel.
As the new centrifugal enhanced pressure plate gave me the possibility to have the wanted clutch slippage the wear plates couldn't handle the heat and wrapped making it impossible to engage the clutch.

[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]

[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]

[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]

[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]

MeXX

[valtteri]

Mexx, there seems to be a post about you on Bangshift! http://bangshift.com/blog/insane-wreckage-video-watch-a-bad-ass-karmann-ghia-wreck-hard-on-a-makeshift-german-drag-strip.html

They are wondering if you were hurt during the crash and one poster is actually claiming your car is 4WD with a turbo! I posted up a link to your engine build thread.

[MeXX]

Hi to all

As there is an upcoming event this weekend and my bronze floaters are still in production. I had to make a new clutch flywheel combo for this race.
Flywheel and pressure plate are made of massive Crmo without wearplates. Altough it is very heavy it should take the heat easily:

[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]
[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]
[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]

MeXX

[Jon]

Haha... Nice Mexx!! This is development!

[MeXX]

Haha... Nice Mexx!! This is development!

Yap

Development takes time and money...
and there are races to be participated...
But innovation is comin' up...

MeXX

[Frallan]

Development takes time and money...
and there are races to be participated...
But innovation is comin' up...

MeXX
[/quote]
Now a days I use exactly that statement to explain what is heppneing in our brains when we are Racers. It is very close, or maybe same result of good feeling ((Dopamin?) as with sex, drugs, promotions etc.
When I was racing full seasons, there was no limit, deadlines came and I was on the track. 
What I had to do, to get there, was incredible, in hindsight.  I learned a lot.

Love your stuff, development and you spirit!